Maybe they got their springs mixed up in assembly.
Maybe test with nickles.
Wrong spring in the switches? Isn't is likely that Ducky just buy a few hundred thousand switches from Cherry and solder them into their keyboards? And why would Cherry put the wrong spring in the switches?
FWIW I have two Ducky Shine (version 1) with MX blues and they both feel different.
Heavy caps do feel different on the same switches, even on the same board. They have more mass and thus more momentum, so need a bit more force to accelerate, but not much (at low speeds). For someone like me who types relatively slowly, it's more a different feeling than anything else, doesn't feel like it needs much more force to press.
If you type really fast, though, it will need more force to press since the mass resists acceleration more the quicker you try to accelerate it (force=mass x acceleration).
I like light switches with heavy caps, gives a "quality" feeling IMO, but I may change my mind as I speed up. Perhaps try the thinner caps on one hand only, so you can get a feeling of them both at the same time.
Heavy caps do feel different on the same switches, even on the same board. They have more mass and thus more momentum, so need a bit more force to accelerate, but not much (at low speeds). For someone like me who types relatively slowly, it's more a different feeling than anything else, doesn't feel like it needs much more force to press.
If you type really fast, though, it will need more force to press since the mass resists acceleration more the quicker you try to accelerate it (force=mass x acceleration).
I like light switches with heavy caps, gives a "quality" feeling IMO, but I may change my mind as I speed up. Perhaps try the thinner caps on one hand only, so you can get a feeling of them both at the same time.
For typing, I much prefer the lighter caps. If I can't get used to the feeling in a bit, I probably will just switch over to the lighter caps so my speed doesn't suffer.
The feeling is certainly quality, just too heavy for me.
I've been using a Das III with blues for about a year, and I just got a filco today (also with blues). Typing on it made me think of your post: it's SO MUCH HEAVIER.
I think something that we often forget when typing on mx switches for a while is that they get significantly lighter with time (albeit very gradually--that's why you forget it). If you use your Ducky exclusively for a couple weeks, it will definitely start to lighten up.
I've been using a Das III with blues for about a year, and I just got a filco today (also with blues). Typing on it made me think of your post: it's SO MUCH HEAVIER.
I think something that we often forget when typing on mx switches for a while is that they get significantly lighter with time (albeit very gradually--that's why you forget it). If you use your Ducky exclusively for a couple weeks, it will definitely start to lighten up.
I agree. What OP is experiencing is probably brand new switches vs switches that have already gone through some use.
Interesting. I would think that thick PBT would feel lighter than thin. Although I can't say I noticed a significant difference between the heaviness of the switches when switching to thick PBT.
They do...unless you're typing against the force of gravity..
Otherwise slightly more weight will be resting on the switch/spring which means it requires less force to press down on it.
It could be the feeling of the thicker PBT or it could be the newness of the switches...
Have you tried swapping some keycaps to see?
They do...unless you're typing against the force of gravity..
Otherwise slightly more weight will be resting on the switch/spring which means it requires less force to press down on it.
It could be the feeling of the thicker PBT or it could be the newness of the switches...
Have you tried swapping some keycaps to see?
Yes, the initial spring force is reduced a tiny amount, but it is not significant. Cherry MX light springs require 35g of force to start compressing from their resting state (due to being precompressed between the stem and casing). A single cap weighs far less than this (around 2g if I am not mistaken, and the difference is at most 1.5g) and thus will not really be noticed.
Its mass is more significant in terms of the force required to accelerate it. The mass of the stem + cap (unsprung weight with respect to the motive force) is significantly increased when switching from ABS to thick PBT.
What this all means is that if you press slowly, you will hardly notice a difference, but the quicker you press the more noticeable the kaycap weight difference will be (F=ma) and the more relative force is required.
I suspect, however, that the new vs old switches is more of a factor here. I didn't take that into consideration initially.
They do...unless you're typing against the force of gravity..
Otherwise slightly more weight will be resting on the switch/spring which means it requires less force to press down on it.
It could be the feeling of the thicker PBT or it could be the newness of the switches...
Have you tried swapping some keycaps to see?
Yes, the initial spring force is reduced a tiny amount, but it is not significant. Cherry MX light springs require 35g of force to start compressing from their resting state (due to being precompressed between the stem and casing). A single cap weighs far less than this (around 2g if I am not mistaken, and the difference is at most 1.5g) and thus will not really be noticed.
Its mass is more significant in terms of the force required to accelerate it. The mass of the stem + cap (unsprung weight with respect to the motive force) is significantly increased when switching from ABS to thick PBT.
What this all means is that if you press slowly, you will hardly notice a difference, but the quicker you press the more noticeable the kaycap weight difference will be (F=ma) and the more relative force is required.
I suspect, however, that the new vs old switches is more of a factor here. I didn't take that into consideration initially.
No..your calculation is not taking into account GRAVITY. The caps would fall without any help from anyone..the spring is holding it up.
Simple way to show this is looking at how much weight it would take to push a particular key down.
So assume a 2g difference in keycaps (it probably isn't even close to that but lets just say).
Assuming you testing with the lightest keycap and the switch was fully depressed at 60g of weight...and then put the heaviest keycap on (2g heavier) it would take 58g of weight to fully depress the key...
Of course I am, I mentioned it is negligable. It reduces the pressure by maximum 2g throughout the press, which is NOT NOTICEABLE (around 5%). 2g is less than the variance between individual springs on a board.
The mass does, however, increase the force required to ACCELERATE the cap and stem by a significant percentage(>40%). So, if there is a difference in perceived force to actuate (and the individual in question types really fast), it's most likely going to be an increase in force due to the increased unsprung mass, not a decrease due to the static mass.
Of course I am, I mentioned it is negligable. It reduces the pressure by maximum 2g throughout the press, which is NOT NOTICEABLE (around 5%). 2g is less than the variance between individual springs on a board.
The mass does, however, increase the force required to ACCELERATE the cap and stem by a significant percentage(>40%). So, if there is a difference in perceived force to actuate (and the individual in question types really fast), it's most likely going to be an increase in force due to the increased unsprung mass, not a decrease due to the static mass.
I see where you're going with this but I don't think it is correct. Are you pressing faster than gravity? I don't think so..
In .05 seconds so basically 20 presses in 1 second (1200 characters in a minute) gravity would take it 1.22cm which is 12.2mm. 3 times further than how far the keys go. To travel 4mm it would take .028 seconds. So lets just say 35 presses per second or 2100 cps.
Since you aren't outracing gravity then whatever force you need to press overcome the spring doesn't require you to move the extra mass you're talking about. Even if the keycap was 100kg and required an additional 60g to press down, it would move quickly and without you needing to accelerate the mass..gravity would be doing that for you...
Of course I am, I mentioned it is negligable. It reduces the pressure by maximum 2g throughout the press, which is NOT NOTICEABLE (around 5%). 2g is less than the variance between individual springs on a board.
The mass does, however, increase the force required to ACCELERATE the cap and stem by a significant percentage(>40%). So, if there is a difference in perceived force to actuate (and the individual in question types really fast), it's most likely going to be an increase in force due to the increased unsprung mass, not a decrease due to the static mass.
I see where you're going with this but I don't think it is correct. Are you pressing faster than gravity? I don't think so..
In .05 seconds so basically 20 presses in 1 second (1200 characters in a minute) gravity would take it 1.22cm which is 12.2mm. 3 times further than how far the keys go. To travel 4mm it would take .028 seconds. So lets just say 35 presses per second or 2100 cps.
Since you aren't outracing gravity then whatever force you need to press overcome the spring doesn't require you to move the extra mass you're talking about. Even if the keycap was 100kg and required an additional 60g to press down, it would move quickly and without you needing to accelerate the mass..gravity would be doing that for you...
You can't think of it like that. The method you're using in measuring keypresses isn't accurate because you're measuring keypresses per second in relation to speed of pressing. These two factors are completely unrelated. Someone who types at 20 wpm compared to me typing at 150 wpm might press the key for the same amount of time, but it is the time between presses that makes wpm.
Of course I am, I mentioned it is negligable. It reduces the pressure by maximum 2g throughout the press, which is NOT NOTICEABLE (around 5%). 2g is less than the variance between individual springs on a board.
The mass does, however, increase the force required to ACCELERATE the cap and stem by a significant percentage(>40%). So, if there is a difference in perceived force to actuate (and the individual in question types really fast), it's most likely going to be an increase in force due to the increased unsprung mass, not a decrease due to the static mass.
I see where you're going with this but I don't think it is correct. Are you pressing faster than gravity? I don't think so..
In .05 seconds so basically 20 presses in 1 second (1200 characters in a minute) gravity would take it 1.22cm which is 12.2mm. 3 times further than how far the keys go. To travel 4mm it would take .028 seconds. So lets just say 35 presses per second or 2100 cps.
Since you aren't outracing gravity then whatever force you need to press overcome the spring doesn't require you to move the extra mass you're talking about. Even if the keycap was 100kg and required an additional 60g to press down, it would move quickly and without you needing to accelerate the mass..gravity would be doing that for you...
You can't think of it like that. The method you're using in measuring keypresses isn't accurate because you're measuring keypresses per second in relation to speed of pressing. These two factors are completely unrelated. Someone who types at 20 wpm compared to me typing at 150 wpm might press the key for the same amount of time, but it is the time between presses that makes wpm.
The time that each keypress takes is obviously also included...
I swear sometimes you post just so that you can say that you type at 150 WPM.
how can they possibly weigh the same?
aren't they thicker on all 5 sides?
Of course I am, I mentioned it is negligable. It reduces the pressure by maximum 2g throughout the press, which is NOT NOTICEABLE (around 5%). 2g is less than the variance between individual springs on a board.
The mass does, however, increase the force required to ACCELERATE the cap and stem by a significant percentage(>40%). So, if there is a difference in perceived force to actuate (and the individual in question types really fast), it's most likely going to be an increase in force due to the increased unsprung mass, not a decrease due to the static mass.
I see where you're going with this but I don't think it is correct. Are you pressing faster than gravity? I don't think so..
In .05 seconds so basically 20 presses in 1 second (1200 characters in a minute) gravity would take it 1.22cm which is 12.2mm. 3 times further than how far the keys go. To travel 4mm it would take .028 seconds. So lets just say 35 presses per second or 2100 cps.
Since you aren't outracing gravity then whatever force you need to press overcome the spring doesn't require you to move the extra mass you're talking about. Even if the keycap was 100kg and required an additional 60g to press down, it would move quickly and without you needing to accelerate the mass..gravity would be doing that for you...
You can't think of it like that. The method you're using in measuring keypresses isn't accurate because you're measuring keypresses per second in relation to speed of pressing. These two factors are completely unrelated. Someone who types at 20 wpm compared to me typing at 150 wpm might press the key for the same amount of time, but it is the time between presses that makes wpm.
It's all about the forces. Gravity is always acting on the cap to produce masscap*9.81N downward force. The spring is also always acting on the cap to produce 0.035*9.81N of upward force at the top of the movement. The top of the switch therefore exerts 0.035*9.81 - masscap*9.81 N of reactive force to maintain equilibrium. The force gravity exerts is always overcome by the spring force, and by a large excess, too. The spring force increases with downward compression, the force exerted by gravity remains the same. So this reduces the relative effect of gravity as the keypress progresses.
Accelerations are always the result of forces acting on bodies, not the other way around. You are accusing me of ignoring gravity, but I am accusing you of ignoring the much stronger spring force.
Assuming a fast keypress is 0.02s, the acceleration is 20m/s2 and requires roughly 0.04N or around 4g pressure on top of the spring resistance force. Admittedly, it's not a lot, but the accelerative force required will increase exponentially with the speed and linearly with the cap mass. About twice the decrease in pressure due to gravity using these values. A lighter cap will require only around 1g accelerative pressure.
When in doubt, reduce it to a simple force diagram, apply Newton's laws and see what you get.
Anyway, the point is probably moot, since the effect the OP feels is most likely due more to new springs vs old, worn-in ones.
It's all about the forces. Gravity is always acting on the cap to produce masscap*9.81N downward force. The spring is also always acting on the cap to produce 0.035*9.81N of upward force at the top of the movement. The top of the switch therefore exerts 0.035*9.81 - masscap*9.81 N of reactive force to maintain equilibrium. The force gravity exerts is always overcome by the spring force, and by a large excess, too. The spring force increases with downward compression, the force exerted by gravity remains the same. So this reduces the relative effect of gravity as the keypress progresses.
Accelerations are always the result of forces acting on bodies, not the other way around. You are accusing me of ignoring gravity, but I am accusing you of ignoring the much stronger spring force.
Assuming a fast keypress is 0.02s, the acceleration is 20m/s2 and requires roughly 0.04N or around 4g pressure on top of the spring resistance force. Admittedly, it's not a lot, but the accelerative force required will increase exponentially with the speed and linearly with the cap mass. About twice the decrease in pressure due to gravity using these values. A lighter cap will require only around 1g accelerative pressure.
When in doubt, reduce it to a simple force diagram, apply Newton's laws and see what you get.
Anyway, the point is probably moot, since the effect the OP feels is most likely due more to new springs vs old, worn-in ones.
You're not taking into consideration the extra downward pressure already applied because of the greater mass.
Are you saying if we had a spring that required 60g to fully depress and a 59g keycap that it would take longer to bottom out? Even though the required force to depress the key is 1g? I don't think so...
Easiest way to test this to make it more obvious..
Press your shift key down...now add a few heavy coins on top..press down...it is a LOT easier to press down..it isn't even close...
Easiest way people can see for themselves..not sure why I didn't mention it earlier...
how can they possibly weigh the same?
aren't they thicker on all 5 sides?
did you weigh them ?... I DID.... LOLShow Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/th_113_.gif)
the taller thin kbc-oem profile pbt weigh exactly the same as the cherry profile thick pbt
Nope, I'm saying it will take more force to accelerate it and that I AM taking the downward pressure due to gravity into account, or don't you understand basic mathematics and physics?
Sure, when pressing SLOWLY. When pressing really fast, the force required to accelerate a 59g cap would be around 1.18N = 120g on top of the 1g remaining spring force = 121g. Just do the math and stop arguing.
The only thing I am ignoring is the increasing spring force as it compresses, whereas you are ignoring the fact that it takes force to accelerate a mass. The greater the mass or the acceleration required, the greater the force required.
You are considering only the statics of the system, not the kinematics.
The only thing I am ignoring is the increasing spring force as it compresses, whereas you are ignoring the fact that it takes force to accelerate a mass. The greater the mass or the acceleration required, the greater the force required.
You are considering only the statics of the system, not the kinematics.
Seriously..you're wrong...look at the latest example..
60g required to fully depress a given spring.
59g keycap.
We agree 1g of extra mass would fully depress spring.
These would be facts in our example right? A 60g Keycap would fully depress a spring that takes 60g to fully depress? Is that right? Yes.
So going to our 60g spring, 59g keycap example.
You grab a 1g weight. Drop it from .000001mm away from the top of the keycap. Or any small distance, 1mm if it makes it easier.
Do we agree the spring would fully depress? Yes.
Now calculate the force generated by dropping a 1g weight from 1mm away...it doesn't generate a whole lot of force does it?
Polymer, you need to consider more than the obvious. Yes, perhaps moving something straight down might require less force to go down, but it takes a greater impulse force to move it.
Sure, when pressing SLOWLY. When pressing really fast, the force required to accelerate a 59g cap would be around 1.18N = 120g on top of the 1g remaining spring force = 121g. Just do the math and stop arguing.
You could think of it this way: If 2 cars have the same engines, but one is lighter, which will accelerate quicker? Which will feel more "sluggish"?
All of your calculations involve pressing the cap faster than the force of gravity...which isn't happening...I think we've determined already that the speed that you're using is wrong..
You still haven't explained why that 1g weight on a 59g cap would still depress the spring..even dropped from .00000001mm and yet still somehow needs a huge amount of force to do so..and it would depress at the speed of gravity..
And really, have you even tried this yet?
All of your calculations involve pressing the cap faster than the force of gravity...which isn't happening...I think we've determined already that the speed that you're using is wrong..
You still haven't explained why that 1g weight on a 59g cap would still depress the spring..even dropped from .00000001mm and yet still somehow needs a huge amount of force to do so..and it would depress at the speed of gravity..
And really, have you even tried this yet?
Are you serious or just trolling?
You still haven't accepted Newtons laws. If you find a flaw in my previous post, please let me know what it is. It shows quite clearly that using enough force to bottom out (using constant force), the initial acceleration of a light cap IS more than 1G, ie more than gravity. More than twice as much, in fact (25.5m/s2, or 2.6G). Even with a 2g cap, the initial acceleration is more than 9.81m/s2 (13.24m/s2).
About the 59g, 1g thing, it WILL go down, but it won't go QUICKLY.
It's just as Linkbane says, the impulse required is larger for a heavier cap and grows parabolically for an increase in desired "quickness". You are not factoring this in at all, since you are doing static calculations only.
The thick PBT caps are Cherry Profile
The thick PBT caps are Cherry Profile
They are not, and you don't have any evidence. The Ducky caps are certainly OEM, which is obvious since they're a Chinese-based company.
I asked a while ago and no one replied... and I can't quite tell from the photos: are the thick PBT caps Cherry profile or OEM? If Cherry, then there is your a answer. It's not about weight here, it's about torque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque). From experience, the difference in height makes for a noticeable difference in torque. If it's OEM profile, then it doesn't make sense that the switches would feel heavier vs. other OEM caps.
The thick PBT caps are Cherry Profile
They are not, and you don't have any evidence. The Ducky caps are certainly OEM, which is obvious since they're a Chinese-based company.
The thick PBT caps are Cherry Profile
They are not, and you don't have any evidence. The Ducky caps are certainly OEM, which is obvious since they're a Chinese-based company.
Well the first lot of thick pbt I saw sold where from Imsto and were cherry profile, the ducky ones only came on certain boards so you couldn't buy them separate and didn't know about the crappy looking font ones.
Yeah regardless of all the disagreements and explanations, I fail to see what torque has to do with anything. Physics, math, and calculations aside I still believe this whole deal is a case of brand new vs older/used switches. Hell I just got a new board (same brand and model) with blues and they do feel a little bit harder than the board I now keep at work.
Yeah regardless of all the disagreements and explanations, I fail to see what torque has to do with anything. Physics, math, and calculations aside I still believe this whole deal is a case of brand new vs older/used switches. Hell I just got a new board (same brand and model) with blues and they do feel a little bit harder than the board I now keep at work.
It would have an effect if the thick PBT caps in question were Cherry profile. 1. because Physics, and 2. personal experience where I can feel the difference.
In this case though, if the caps are the same OEM profile, it's probably minor differences between the two keyboards, and as you said, worn in used switches vs. new.
I linked a wikipedia article to torque. The lever is your hand, pivoted about where you rest it (on your thumb near a spacebar or wherever you like to hold it, your palm base, etc). It's not actually linear downward motion, although in very small travel distance approximation it could be viewed as such.
P.S.: that's for regular hand positioning and touch typing. If you're standing over your keyboard and punching on the keycaps with your finger pointed down in a direct downward motion--that would be an example of linear motion for typing.
I linked a wikipedia article to torque. The lever is your hand, pivoted about where you rest it (on your thumb near a spacebar or wherever you like to hold it, your palm base, etc). It's not actually linear downward motion, although in very small travel distance approximation it could be viewed as such.
P.S.: that's for regular hand positioning and touch typing. If you're standing over your keyboard and punching on the keycaps with your finger pointed down in a direct downward motion--that would be an example of linear motion for typing.
But if you float your hands while typing (as you should) the "pivot" is the first knuckle of your finger and the position will be almost exactly the same relative to the top of the cap as with any other cap. The only perceivable difference will be the same as adjusting the height of your chair or desk by a couple mm. Not really significant, is it?
Cherry profile does feel different, but it has nothing to do with torque. More to do with relative keycap positions (reach) and surface angles.
I agree, the difference in feel is probably mostly just new springs vs old, but heavier caps do feel different on the same springs, mostly due to the increase in impulse needed at higher speeds.
so much fud in this thread...
so much fud in this thread...