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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Acknown3 on Sun, 22 December 2013, 18:35:21

Title: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: Acknown3 on Sun, 22 December 2013, 18:35:21
Hey guys. I got the tenkeypad from this page (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=leopold,tenkeypads&pid=fc210tpcb) so that I could use it for trainers and games which require input from numpad numbers, not the numbers in row 5 of the keyboard. Unfortunately, the pad registers as the row 5 numbers, which completely defeats the purpose of owning it. Is there a program that I could use to remap the keys to the numpad numbers without also changing the ones on the row 5 of my keyboard to the numpad numbers as well? Sorry if I can't explain the problem clearly, I'm a bit frustrated.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: Mr. C on Mon, 23 December 2013, 22:58:28
Sorry to hear the problem with Leo tenkey as I just bought one. Thanks for pointing issue out.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: metalliqaz on Mon, 23 December 2013, 23:07:14
This is a known issue.  Believe it or not it's actually done for a reason.  The idea is that the state of the NumLock on the normal keyboard doesn't effect the Numpad.  Instead of sending number pad keys, the pad sends number row (not affected by NumLock), and when its own NumLock button is pressed, it sends the PgUp, Home, etc. keys.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: Nixietube on Tue, 24 December 2013, 10:48:23
hearing that just rendered the leo numpad useless in my eyes. if i have a 60% keyboard and get a seperate numbpad i expect it to send the propper signals and not just some other stuff. they should have at least installed a switch to change that.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 24 December 2013, 12:19:40
Leopold are dumb for doing this. Makes no sense to mess with a known standard.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Tue, 24 December 2013, 13:18:29
Wow that's so dumb. Many other numpads just do numlock+NP_X+numlock off on each keypress to avoid it screwing around with numlock state with numlock being more like an internal Fn key to switch layers. No idea why they didn't do that as well.
Pretty much any game that expect numpad need to have numpad number scan codes, also same for unicode input as that dosen't work on numrow scan codes either.
I guess if you're only doing number crunching it's still a nice numpad, but they really should have thought it through.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: Suichoy on Tue, 24 December 2013, 17:48:52
I have this numpad as well, was hoping to use it for programs that specifically call for true numpad output. I wish Leopold would put a warning on their site or give out some kind of hotfix.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 25 December 2013, 04:14:16
So you can't do Alt-0xxx using this external numpad then?
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: phoenix1234 on Wed, 25 December 2013, 04:30:22
Hey guys. I got the tenkeypad from this page (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=leopold,tenkeypads&pid=fc210tpcb) so that I could use it for trainers and games which require input from numpad numbers, not the numbers in row 5 of the keyboard. Unfortunately, the pad registers as the row 5 numbers, which completely defeats the purpose of owning it. Is there a program that I could use to remap the keys to the numpad numbers without also changing the ones on the row 5 of my keyboard to the numpad numbers as well? Sorry if I can't explain the problem clearly, I'm a bit frustrated.

The PC will receive numpad5 as VK_NUMPAD5 keycode.
If Leopold implemented it as VK_KEY_5, it is a serious defect.

If you are using Windows 7, you can use On-Screen Keyboard feature with numpad enabled (you need to click to Option to enable Numpad). It will help you to input Numpad 5 without a physical keyboard.
(http://i.stack.imgur.com/gUuZk.png)
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: osi on Wed, 25 December 2013, 10:31:16
I have one of these with blues. I was too dissapointed that it doesn't pass the correct codes however, I don't need them. It did strike me a little odd though. Why leave them out?
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 25 December 2013, 11:53:22
This is disappointing, just bought one of these as well :(
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: metalliqaz on Wed, 25 December 2013, 12:08:45
So you can't do Alt-0xxx using this external numpad then?

That is correct
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 25 December 2013, 16:49:20
Is it possible to remap the 5 to down arrow when the num lock is off, so you have a normal inverted T layout?
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: peter79 on Fri, 27 December 2013, 21:48:08
Which one is "regular" row 5 numbers?
My only problem is "." key, it appears "." not "," on Excell
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: tbc on Fri, 27 December 2013, 21:54:40
? what?


there are two places where there are numbers on a keyboard.  the numpad on the right and the number row (the keys right above 'qwerty')
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: Findecanor on Sat, 28 December 2013, 11:58:19
The / * -  + and Enter keys are still numpad codes, right?
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: Nixietube on Mon, 13 January 2014, 03:48:34
when this was more up to date i wrote elitekeyboards.com and asked them about it. got a reply yesterday:

Quote
Hi (real Name of Nixietube),

Yes, that is correct; the number codes sent are not Numberpad codes, but number row codes.

Best regards,
Brian
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: eddie on Mon, 13 January 2014, 05:12:08
Wow, this sucks. I didn't really notice with problem till now. Just received mine a few weeks ago.  :-\
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: naasfu on Tue, 28 January 2014, 19:51:08
I've seen some posts where people got "fixed" Leopold tenkeypads.  However, I just got this reply back from EK today, so it would probably be safe to wait a bit before getting a Leopold:
Quote
Yes, they do [still have this issue]. This should be fixed in the next batch in a couple of months.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: StylinGreymon on Wed, 29 January 2014, 02:49:10
Glad I saw this thread before buying one.
Maybe I'll get a Filco one instead.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 29 January 2014, 04:52:34
I've seen some posts where people got "fixed" Leopold tenkeypads.  However, I just got this reply back from EK today, so it would probably be safe to wait a bit before getting a Leopold:
Quote
Yes, they do [still have this issue]. This should be fixed in the next batch in a couple of months.

The new ones are fixed, mine came from S.Korea and it's is perfect, it's just going to take a little while for the stock to filter through to EK. They are great numpads.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: soloz2 on Tue, 25 February 2014, 06:10:39
I've seen some posts where people got "fixed" Leopold tenkeypads.  However, I just got this reply back from EK today, so it would probably be safe to wait a bit before getting a Leopold:
Quote
Yes, they do [still have this issue]. This should be fixed in the next batch in a couple of months.

The new ones are fixed, mine came from S.Korea and it's is perfect, it's just going to take a little while for the stock to filter through to EK. They are great numpads.

Would you mind sharing where you got yours from?  I've called EK, but they don't have fixed ones yet.  I emailed qtan, but he hasn't gotten back to me yet.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: oscillik on Tue, 25 February 2014, 06:23:14
this is exactly why I want a Realforce 23UB. It has a DIP switch so that you can have it act like a true NumPad. Also, it's thorprer.

My Goldtouch NumPad suffers from this exact same problem - doesn't send proper scancodes. It's incredibly frustrating.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: daerid on Tue, 25 February 2014, 09:08:42
The Filco has the same problem. I had one for a while and never used it because of it.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: soloz2 on Tue, 25 February 2014, 09:59:20
I just got a Filco and it registered as number pad on my laptop. I'm having difficulty finding keycaps for it due to the 00 though
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: QuadGMoto on Tue, 25 February 2014, 14:05:06
Oh, that's just peachy.   >:D

The one I ordered is due to arrive tomorrow. Sadly I do need it to actually send keypad codes for use with the music notation software I use.

Does anyone know if this is a firmware issue that can be fixed via an update?
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: IPT on Tue, 25 February 2014, 14:11:55
The Filco has the same problem. I had one for a while and never used it because of it.

the filco shouldn't, it should register as a normal numberpad.
if you use aqua keytest you'll see its actually pressing numberpad then the button on each keypress
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=21101.0
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: QuadGMoto on Thu, 27 February 2014, 16:41:53
The Leopold I ordered arrived yesterday. It really does have the problem described by the OP.

An email sent to Elite Keyboards' support confirmed that there is no firmware update. But then, neither could I find any other numeric keypads that use Cherry blue switches. Heck, I found some other very strange limitations in separate numeric keypads along the way. (No equals key?!? What's up with that?!?  :eek:) So I had to find a way to make it work.

Long story, short; I'm on a Mac. Elite Keyboards has a utility listed on their site called KeyRemap4MacBook, and its interface is even more awkward than its name. But if you take the time to manually build the necessary xml file, it can remap the keys at a low enough level that no application even realizes the keys have been remapped.

So if you need it, here's the xml file needed to remap those keys using this utility:

Code: [Select]
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<root>

  <devicevendordef>
    <vendorname>Leopold</vendorname>
    <vendorid>0x04d9</vendorid>
  </devicevendordef>

  <deviceproductdef>
    <productname>FC210TP</productname>
    <productid>0x0176</productid>
  </deviceproductdef>

<item>
    <name>Convert Leopold Numbers to Keypad Numbers</name>
    <identifier>private.leopold_to_keypad</identifier>
    <device_only>DeviceVendor::Leopold, DeviceProduct::FC210TP</device_only>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_0, KeyCode::KEYPAD_0</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_1, KeyCode::KEYPAD_1</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_2, KeyCode::KEYPAD_2</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_3, KeyCode::KEYPAD_3</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_4, KeyCode::KEYPAD_4</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_5, KeyCode::KEYPAD_5</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_6, KeyCode::KEYPAD_6</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_7, KeyCode::KEYPAD_7</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_8, KeyCode::KEYPAD_8</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_9, KeyCode::KEYPAD_9</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::EQUAL, KeyCode::KEYPAD_EQUAL</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::DOT, KeyCode::KEYPAD_DOT</autogen>
  </item>

</root>

For you Windows and Linux/Unix guys, sorry, I don't know of a similar utility for you. Maybe someone else here knows of something.

Quote
The Filco has the same problem. I had one for a while and never used it because of it.

Along the way of working this out, I discovered that the vendor code sent by the Leopold is Filco's vendor code. No wonder the two keypads have the same problem.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: daerid on Thu, 27 February 2014, 23:21:02
The Filco has the same problem. I had one for a while and never used it because of it.

the filco shouldn't, it should register as a normal numberpad.
if you use aqua keytest you'll see its actually pressing numberpad then the button on each keypress
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=21101.0

The one I had most definitely sent the top row number codes. I purchased it specifically so I could use Pro Tools shortcuts with my tenkeyless keyboard (at the time), and none of them worked. Aqua Key Test also confirmed that the numpad was sending the wrong codes.

Maybe it was just my unit, but I doubt it. Others were experiencing the same issue at the time.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: Surnia on Sat, 01 March 2014, 02:31:30
ouch, thank god I saw this. Was going to pickup another keypad for work, and thought the leo would be a great unit (better QC, etc). I'll have to wait on the new stock then; we use software that only registers certain commands on the numpad codes.

In other news, my Keycool 22 outputs the proper scancodes, works like a charm minus the fact that the feet slide like skates on ice..
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: daerid on Sat, 01 March 2014, 11:37:55
I just don't understand why the Leopold is the only numpad with a proper size 0 key :(
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: QuadGMoto on Sat, 01 March 2014, 11:42:59
I just don't understand why the Leopold is the only numpad with a proper size 0 key :(

I don't understand why so many numpads don't have an equals key.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: dustinhxc on Sat, 01 March 2014, 11:47:28
Leopold TKP is worth it just for the clean body/ case.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: daerid on Sat, 01 March 2014, 11:48:40
I just don't understand why the Leopold is the only numpad with a proper size 0 key :(

I don't understand why so many numpads don't have an equals key.

Probably because the standard 10 key on full keyboards doesn't. Whether or not it should is an entirely different matter.

Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: QuadGMoto on Sat, 01 March 2014, 12:01:41
Whether or not it should is an entirely different matter.

 ;D

There is a separate keycode for them. And Apple's keyboards have had one for decades. That means they should have one.  ;)

There are times when it really comes in handy. Oddly enough, that's not while using a calculator, since I prefer RPN.  :cool:

The combination of a full sized zero key, an equals key, and Cherry blues is why I bought the Leopold. Being about to work around the number codes problem is why I kept it.  :)
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: daerid on Sat, 01 March 2014, 12:49:44
Whether or not it should is an entirely different matter.

 ;D

There is a separate keycode for them. And Apple's keyboards have had one for decades. That means they should have one.  ;)

There are times when it really comes in handy. Oddly enough, that's not while using a calculator, since I prefer RPN.  :cool:

The combination of a full sized zero key, an equals key, and Cherry blues is why I bought the Leopold. Being about to work around the number codes problem is why I kept it.  :)

:D Please share when you get it working, if it's relatively painless (although I am a software dev, so my "pain" threshold is fairly high), then I'll just pick one of these up.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: QuadGMoto on Sat, 01 March 2014, 12:55:27
:D Please share when you get it working, if it's relatively painless (although I am a software dev, so my "pain" threshold is fairly high), then I'll just pick one of these up.

It's working now under Mac OS X. (See here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52632.msg1241098#msg1241098 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52632.msg1241098#msg1241098))

I'm thinking about playing around with remapping on a Windows machine, but I don't have time to do it this weekend.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: osi on Sat, 01 March 2014, 13:08:33
I still like my leo pad despite its small downfall. Using alt codes are not a necessity for me. There is always charmap or oak if I need.

My fingers are starting to get bored with the blues though.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: daerid on Sat, 01 March 2014, 14:27:40
Ahhh yes. That's  much easier to do on a Mac than on Windows. Discerning between devices on Windows requires a low level driver. And writing drivers for Windows is not fun.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: IPT on Sat, 01 March 2014, 21:42:27
dunno if you guys seen my post here:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55340.msg1242467#msg1242467
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: atlas3686 on Mon, 03 March 2014, 07:07:57
The Leopold I ordered arrived yesterday. It really does have the problem described by the OP.

An email sent to Elite Keyboards' support confirmed that there is no firmware update. But then, neither could I find any other numeric keypads that use Cherry blue switches. Heck, I found some other very strange limitations in separate numeric keypads along the way. (No equals key?!? What's up with that?!?  :eek:) So I had to find a way to make it work.

Long story, short; I'm on a Mac. Elite Keyboards has a utility listed on their site called KeyRemap4MacBook, and its interface is even more awkward than its name. But if you take the time to manually build the necessary xml file, it can remap the keys at a low enough level that no application even realizes the keys have been remapped.

So if you need it, here's the xml file needed to remap those keys using this utility:

Code: [Select]
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<root>

  <devicevendordef>
    <vendorname>Leopold</vendorname>
    <vendorid>0x04d9</vendorid>
  </devicevendordef>

  <deviceproductdef>
    <productname>FC210TP</productname>
    <productid>0x0176</productid>
  </deviceproductdef>

<item>
    <name>Convert Leopold Numbers to Keypad Numbers</name>
    <identifier>private.leopold_to_keypad</identifier>
    <device_only>DeviceVendor::Leopold, DeviceProduct::FC210TP</device_only>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_0, KeyCode::KEYPAD_0</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_1, KeyCode::KEYPAD_1</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_2, KeyCode::KEYPAD_2</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_3, KeyCode::KEYPAD_3</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_4, KeyCode::KEYPAD_4</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_5, KeyCode::KEYPAD_5</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_6, KeyCode::KEYPAD_6</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_7, KeyCode::KEYPAD_7</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_8, KeyCode::KEYPAD_8</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::KEY_9, KeyCode::KEYPAD_9</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::EQUAL, KeyCode::KEYPAD_EQUAL</autogen>
    <autogen>__KeyToKey__ KeyCode::DOT, KeyCode::KEYPAD_DOT</autogen>
  </item>

</root>

For you Windows and Linux/Unix guys, sorry, I don't know of a similar utility for you. Maybe someone else here knows of something.

Quote
The Filco has the same problem. I had one for a while and never used it because of it.

Along the way of working this out, I discovered that the vendor code sent by the Leopold is Filco's vendor code. No wonder the two keypads have the same problem.

Nicely done seriously! I don't think it's possible to do on windows though at least not without fancy drivers.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: QuadGMoto on Mon, 03 March 2014, 10:04:25
Nicely done seriously! I don't think it's possible to do on windows though at least not without fancy drivers.

Here's what I've found so far.

There is a registry structure that can be used to remap keys at a low level. There are even several different applications that help you set up this remapping. There's just one problem with it. It does not allow for device specific remapping. (Really, Microsoft?!? You couldn't imagine that someone might need to connect more than one keyboard, and might need to remap keys just for one of them? Like on a number pad attached to a notebook computer?)

So I started looking at what goes on at the driver level. I was not able to find any remapping utilities that replace Windows' default keyboard driver.

I also discovered that Windows allows stacking drivers on top of the keyboard driver. These are called "filter drivers". So it should be possible to create something like that to do device specific key remapping. Searching did turn up a few prebuilt filter drivers, mostly for swapping out the caps lock key. So far I haven't found any utility that gives you a configurable filter driver. Though I found mention on another forum of a filter driver that could provide the basis of such a utility.

And that's where it stands. I won't really have time to do much more on this, but hey, this is geekhack. Surely there's someone here who already knows how to put together such a filter driver in a couple of hours!
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: daerid on Mon, 03 March 2014, 12:27:19
a couple hours? eeek

(meaning... highly doubtful)
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: QuadGMoto on Mon, 03 March 2014, 12:37:07
a couple hours? eeek

(meaning... highly doubtful)

If someone already knows how to do it, that would be because they've done it before. And that would mean they almost certainly have a framework already. The rest—read the codes, check the table, return the result—is the easy stuff.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as &quot;regular&quot; row 5 numbers
Post by: soloz2 on Tue, 04 March 2014, 12:52:09
I just ordered one from qtan so hoping it's fixed. Will report back
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as &quot;regular&quot; row 5 numbers
Post by: nobee on Sun, 16 March 2014, 16:54:13
I just ordered one from qtan so hoping it's fixed. Will report back

soloz, have you received the Leo from qtan yet? I'm thinking of ordering the black with mx red from him, but I also want to make sure his current batch is outputting the correct codes. I already emailed him, so awaiting an answer but I'm curious if you've received yours yet.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: Novus on Sun, 16 March 2014, 17:16:09
I just ordered one from qtan so hoping it's fixed. Will report back

I just ordered one from qtan so hoping it's fixed. Will report back

soloz, have you received the Leo from qtan yet? I'm thinking of ordering the black with mx red from him, but I also want to make sure his current batch is outputting the correct codes. I already emailed him, so awaiting an answer but I'm curious if you've received yours yet.

Let me know what he says. I'm also keen on getting on a MX red leopold tenkeypad.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: soloz2 on Sun, 16 March 2014, 20:29:26
No, I haven't received it yet.  I ordered white with blue switches.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: medvednic on Wed, 19 March 2014, 16:35:53
Does the Keycool Numpad sends the correct numpad code?
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: nobee on Mon, 14 April 2014, 16:46:15
I already posted on the vendor forum, but I'll repost here because I said I would provide an update. Gonna be contacting qtan for a return. I ordered the black MX Red.

Looks like the one I got from qtan is unfortunately printing off the wrong codes even though he said that they should be printing off the correct codes.

I'm going to have to email him for a return now. Unfortunately, I need the correct codes to work with software I use at work. A little disappointing because I did specifically asked him about this before ordering.

Here are all the keys registering from the Leopold 210TP on Aqua's Key Test.
(http://i.imgur.com/XZ71Csj.jpg)
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: QuadGMoto on Mon, 14 April 2014, 16:48:32
nobee,


What OS are you using at work?
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: nobee on Mon, 14 April 2014, 16:49:23
nobee,


What OS are you using at work?


Windows 7
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: metalliqaz on Mon, 14 April 2014, 17:14:28
I already posted on the vendor forum, but I'll repost here because I said I would provide an update. Gonna be contacting qtan for a return. I ordered the black MX Red.

Looks like the one I got from qtan is unfortunately printing off the wrong codes even though he said that they should be printing off the correct codes.

I'm going to have to email him for a return now. Unfortunately, I need the correct codes to work with software I use at work. A little disappointing because I did specifically asked him about this before ordering.

Here are all the keys registering from the Leopold FC210TP on Aqua's Key Test.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/XZ71Csj.jpg)


I'm sure this trouble is caused by the question being lost in translation.  The difference is subtle.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as &quot;regular&quot; row 5 numbers
Post by: nobee on Mon, 14 April 2014, 17:29:01
I already posted on the vendor forum, but I'll repost here because I said I would provide an update. Gonna be contacting qtan for a return. I ordered the black MX Red.

Looks like the one I got from qtan is unfortunately printing off the wrong codes even though he said that they should be printing off the correct codes.

I'm going to have to email him for a return now. Unfortunately, I need the correct codes to work with software I use at work. A little disappointing because I did specifically asked him about this before ordering.

Here are all the keys registering from the Leopold 210TP on Aqua's Key Test.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/XZ71Csj.jpg)


I'm sure this trouble is caused by the question being lost in translation.  The difference is subtle.

Well in any case, I just wanted to provide an update because some people on here were asking about it and wanted to know.

If he said that they should have the correct codes because they were a relatively new batch, then it looks like ordering a Leopold 210TP with the correct codes is more of a lottery. That's the part that may have been lost in translation.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: Macsmasher on Mon, 14 April 2014, 18:59:58
this is exactly why I want a Realforce 23UB. It has a DIP switch so that you can have it act like a true NumPad. Also, it's thorprer.

My Goldtouch NumPad suffers from this exact same problem - doesn't send proper scancodes. It's incredibly frustrating.

I have a 23U. Works just like a numpad. I've tried the Filco. I didn't check it to see which keycodes it was sending. Even so, it doesn't hold a candle to the quality of the 23U. The difference is night and day. Of course, the 23U is/was 3x the price of the Filco.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as &quot;regular&quot; row 5 numbers
Post by: nobee on Mon, 14 April 2014, 19:15:16
this is exactly why I want a Realforce 23UB. It has a DIP switch so that you can have it act like a true NumPad. Also, it's thorprer.

My Goldtouch NumPad suffers from this exact same problem - doesn't send proper scancodes. It's incredibly frustrating.

I have a 23U. Works just like a numpad. I've tried the Filco. I didn't check it to see which keycodes it was sending. Even so, it doesn't hold a candle to the quality of the 23U. The difference is night and day. Of course, the 23U is/was 3x the price of the Filco.

I would love a 23U! Topre all the way! Too bad it's sold out in EK. :(
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: Bucake on Mon, 14 April 2014, 20:18:43
thanks alot for the update, nobee.

oscillik: the 23U uses plate-mounted switches, right? (or are topre switches always plate-mounted..?)
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as &quot;regular&quot; row 5 numbers
Post by: nobee on Mon, 14 April 2014, 21:59:36
thanks alot for the update, nobee.

Np Bucake. FYI, qtan provided an update on this issue here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55219.msg1294704#msg1294704

So it looks like he did check with his supplier and they provided him with a screencap of the test indicating that the codes were correct, but they might have been made in Korea (newer batch?) whereas the one I received was made in China (older batch?).

All this to say that qtan probably has no control over which one gets shipped and if you order one, you may or may not get one with the correct codes.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: Bucake on Mon, 14 April 2014, 22:21:33
thanks for the heads up :j

i guess i'll just hope to get lucky and bump into a way to get my hands on a 23U or/and a 'good' 210TP :x
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: Grendel on Tue, 15 April 2014, 01:37:56
I already posted on the vendor forum, but I'll repost here because I said I would provide an update. Gonna be contacting qtan for a return. I ordered the black MX Red.

Looks like the one I got from qtan is unfortunately printing off the wrong codes even though he said that they should be printing off the correct codes.

I'm going to have to email him for a return now. Unfortunately, I need the correct codes to work with software I use at work. A little disappointing because I did specifically asked him about this before ordering.

Here are all the keys registering from the Leopold 210TP on Aqua's Key Test.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/XZ71Csj.jpg)


Looks like NUM Lock is off. What happens if you turn it on ?
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as &quot;regular&quot; row 5 numbers
Post by: nobee on Tue, 15 April 2014, 05:08:29
I already posted on the vendor forum, but I'll repost here because I said I would provide an update. Gonna be contacting qtan for a return. I ordered the black MX Red.

Looks like the one I got from qtan is unfortunately printing off the wrong codes even though he said that they should be printing off the correct codes.

I'm going to have to email him for a return now. Unfortunately, I need the correct codes to work with software I use at work. A little disappointing because I did specifically asked him about this before ordering.

Here are all the keys registering from the Leopold 210TP on Aqua's Key Test.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/XZ71Csj.jpg)


Looks like NUM Lock is off. What happens if you turn it on ?

Num lock was on. I toggled it on and off, but the key test doesn't highlight it for some reason. Although, it does on my Das. Turning Num lock off just turns on the arrow keys.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as &quot;regular&quot; row 5 numbers
Post by: metalliqaz on Tue, 15 April 2014, 06:09:25
It keeps track of num lock internally.  That is so it is unaffected by the keyboard's NumLock. It's also why the keycodes are wrong. My firmware does the same thing when you unlink the numlock
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: Grendel on Tue, 15 April 2014, 12:33:41
I already posted on the vendor forum, but I'll repost here because I said I would provide an update. Gonna be contacting qtan for a return. I ordered the black MX Red.

Looks like the one I got from qtan is unfortunately printing off the wrong codes even though he said that they should be printing off the correct codes.

I'm going to have to email him for a return now. Unfortunately, I need the correct codes to work with software I use at work. A little disappointing because I did specifically asked him about this before ordering.

Here are all the keys registering from the Leopold 210TP on Aqua's Key Test.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/XZ71Csj.jpg)


Looks like NUM Lock is off. What happens if you turn it on ?

Num lock was on. I toggled it on and off, but the key test doesn't highlight it for some reason. Although, it does on my Das. Turning Num lock off just turns on the arrow keys.

Ah. It's too smart for it's own good -- NUML on/off is normally handled by the computer, a keyboard normally doesn't know or cares about its status. Looks like that pad implements what I call "Local NUML", ie. it's not passing the NUML key to the computer but keeps track of it locally. It has to send the regular number keys if its own NUML is on but the system NUML is off (in my Scorpius 32 firmware FN+NUML will turn on local NUML.) Try if it sends the "right" codes if you turn on the system wide NUML w/ your Das.

While I can see why this is implemented, I think it's problematic -- people w/ TKL boards (a likely customer group) can't easily control the system wide NUML.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: QuadGMoto on Tue, 15 April 2014, 12:54:39
It has to send the regular number keys if its own NUML is on but the system NUML is off (in my Scorpius 32 firmware FN+NUML will turn on local NUML.)


I don't understand this. Why would the system NumLock need to be on to send the keypad number codes from a separate device?
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: metalliqaz on Tue, 15 April 2014, 13:02:34
It has to send the regular number keys if its own NUML is on but the system NUML is off (in my Scorpius 32 firmware FN+NUML will turn on local NUML.)


I don't understand this. Why would the system NumLock need to be on to send the keypad number codes from a separate device?

It doesn't need to be on to send the scancodes for the number pad.  The problem is that those scancodes translate to numbers or movement keys, depending on NumLock.

So say you have a keyboard and a numberpad.  The NumLock is kept by the host PC.  Therefore you may want to make the numpad always work as numbers, no matter what the NumLock is doing on the other keyboard.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: esoomenona on Tue, 15 April 2014, 13:06:25
Run AHK, and set NumLock state to always on?
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: QuadGMoto on Tue, 15 April 2014, 13:15:12
I just did a test on my dedicated Windows machine. I have a TECK, the Leopold keypad and a Logitech rubber dome attached to it. I managed to turn off the system numlock, but still get the Logitech to send number codes from the keypad. Here's the result:


[attachimg=1]


So apparently Windows can still accept keypad number codes even if the system numlock is off. So why can't the keypad just send those codes without worrying about the system numlock?
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: QuadGMoto on Tue, 15 April 2014, 13:20:48
Oh! Upon rereading and testing, I get it now.


Even though Windows receives the correct codes, it gets all soopur smarrtt 'n' stufff, and translates those codes into the movement codes. Genius! NOT!  >:D
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: metalliqaz on Tue, 15 April 2014, 13:23:05
Actually that's the way it's supposed to work, any other way would be insane.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: QuadGMoto on Tue, 15 April 2014, 13:32:41
Actually that's the way it's supposed to work, any other way would be insane.


It can only work well that way if there is only one keyboard connected to a computer. As can clearly be seen by this thread, when you wind up with multiple devices, such as a separate numeric keypad (or notebook computer setups), it gets out of control real fast. It's far simpler and user friendly to have each keyboard in charge of its own state.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 15 April 2014, 13:34:39
So by sending the numROW codes instead of the numPAD codes, the keypad is protecting its output from the OS.

I typically have a couple of keyboards plugged into my systems at all times, and I must admit that even with actual keypads on 104-key keyboards, it is quite simple to get the numlock state FUBAR.  This is also true with the Caps Lock key (and associated LEDs).

I'll go dink around with my Cherry numpad (PS/2) in combination with other input devices.  Dueling keypads might be entertaining.  Briefly.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  In Linux.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Wed, 16 April 2014, 00:18:06
I agree with metalliqaz and Grendel. It should be controlled by the host system and not internally in any way. If I have more than one keyboard plugged in, even if I add something later, it will maintain whether or not all three are on or off and will act accordingly. The only weirdness is that the light itself may not be on, but if you change any everything should switch as it should.

If you're using a TKL along with one of these that does that just make sure that numlock is set to auto-on in the bios, and because you have no way of changing it this status will always be active. As long as you aren't interfering with yourself by using the redundant/unhelpful internal control everything will work as intended.

The only time something should even pretend to know anything about its own status is if its a fully programmable keyboard being run from a teensy or something and you have different layers.  Similarly using that to change numpad behavior shouldn't be done unless it is changing to something non-standard.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: QuadGMoto on Wed, 16 April 2014, 07:53:52
The only time something should even pretend to know anything about its own status is if its a fully programmable keyboard being run from a teensy or something and you have different layers.


That's actually a strike against the OS trying to be too smart. It limits the ability of designers and end-users to come up with creative and flexible solutions to their own workflow.


The other common strike against OS overaggressiveness is the point of this very thread—using a separate numeric keypad. There are two setups where this is common: With a notebook where the keyboard does not have room for a separate number pad, and TKL keyboards. (In my case, my TECK falls into the latter category.) In both scenarios it's common for the keyboard design to include an embedded numeric keypad to make major number entry easier. For such an embedded number pad to be appropriately useful there needs to be a number lock feature (so your left hand can be on the paper to keep track of where you are).


So now you have a problem. When the number lock on the keyboard is off so you can type, and that number lock is system-wide, does that now mean the numeric keypad you've added must not be permitted to send numeric codes? That is the situation we have now.


The result is that the keyboard and keypad designers must come up with a workaround. One option is to have the number pad send the number codes for the top row numbers instead of the numeric keypad codes. But there is software that needs to perform different functions based on whether the number was typed on the keypad or the top row. One example is the music notation software I use, and I can tell you, that needs to be that way.


Another option is to toggle the systemwide number lock when passing the number code. But that can run into timing issues. There's a reason good keyboards have N-key rollover: because when things are happening fast, events can become so close that they overlap and interfere with each other. Toggling the system number lock in that situation can lead to unexpected results if the lock is still on when a second key's event is processed, which can happen with multiple devices.


You mentioned one advantage to a systemwide state: keeping the state of multiple devices in sync. But think about it. When does this make sense? When each device is different? (As in the notebook/TKL keyboard + number pad) Or when each device is the same? (As in two dedicated number pads.) If the latter, would the end user always want them in sync? Or put this way, why would the end user add a second number pad if they wanted both of them to do exactly the same thing?


Another possible reason to use a systemwide state is to simplify keyboard design. But if you think about keyboards, they always have to track the number lock state anyway to turn the LED on and off. So I don't see any technical reason to not have each keyboard track it's own state(s). Heck, it's done for caps lock.

Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: metalliqaz on Wed, 16 April 2014, 09:42:48
All keyboards (numpads included) are designed with the concept that they transmit SCAN CODES, not CHARACTER CODES (buttons, not text).  It is up to the host PC to interpret what the user wants to do.  Your keyboard transmits "ctrl key" + "c key", it doesn't transmit "copy to clipboard".  This is intentional.  The host PC should be the interpreter of contextual intention.  It only needs to know what buttons were pressed.  This is why the host PC keeps track of Num Lock, Caps Lock, etc.  This is the way it has to be.  It shouldn't be up to the keyboard to decide if a "c key" should mean 'c' or 'C' or 'copy' or 'interrupt'.  Same goes for Num Lock stuff.

OP's keypad doesn't work correctly.  What I meant before is that I understand what Leopold was going for.  They wanted the numberpad to be able to always send out numbers, regardless of the state of the other keyboard's numlock.  Unfortunately that workflow isn't for everyone.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: Grendel on Wed, 16 April 2014, 12:45:58
Yea, the user should be able to enable/disable this form of "improvement" to make the pad truly universal, eg. via dip-switch or Fn combo.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Wed, 16 April 2014, 16:28:32
The only time something should even pretend to know anything about its own status is if its a fully programmable keyboard being run from a teensy or something and you have different layers.


That's actually a strike against the OS trying to be too smart. It limits the ability of designers and end-users to come up with creative and flexible solutions to their own workflow.


The other common strike against OS overaggressiveness is the point of this very thread—using a separate numeric keypad. There are two setups where this is common: With a notebook where the keyboard does not have room for a separate number pad, and TKL keyboards. (In my case, my TECK falls into the latter category.) In both scenarios it's common for the keyboard design to include an embedded numeric keypad to make major number entry easier. For such an embedded number pad to be appropriately useful there needs to be a number lock feature (so your left hand can be on the paper to keep track of where you are).


So now you have a problem. When the number lock on the keyboard is off so you can type, and that number lock is system-wide, does that now mean the numeric keypad you've added must not be permitted to send numeric codes? That is the situation we have now.


The result is that the keyboard and keypad designers must come up with a workaround. One option is to have the number pad send the number codes for the top row numbers instead of the numeric keypad codes. But there is software that needs to perform different functions based on whether the number was typed on the keypad or the top row. One example is the music notation software I use, and I can tell you, that needs to be that way.


Another option is to toggle the systemwide number lock when passing the number code. But that can run into timing issues. There's a reason good keyboards have N-key rollover: because when things are happening fast, events can become so close that they overlap and interfere with each other. Toggling the system number lock in that situation can lead to unexpected results if the lock is still on when a second key's event is processed, which can happen with multiple devices.


You mentioned one advantage to a systemwide state: keeping the state of multiple devices in sync. But think about it. When does this make sense? When each device is different? (As in the notebook/TKL keyboard + number pad) Or when each device is the same? (As in two dedicated number pads.) If the latter, would the end user always want them in sync? Or put this way, why would the end user add a second number pad if they wanted both of them to do exactly the same thing?


Another possible reason to use a systemwide state is to simplify keyboard design. But if you think about keyboards, they always have to track the number lock state anyway to turn the LED on and off. So I don't see any technical reason to not have each keyboard track it's own state(s). Heck, it's done for caps lock.



The keyboard does not keep track of its status for lights. The point of the change from XT to AT is that it added bi-directional support to the protocol, and this is used for the computer to tell the idiot keyboard to turn on or off its light. This is likely why it takes a change of any LED state for a newly connected keyboard to suddenly have the correct lights enabled. The OS has always handled this since the beginning of the AT protocol. A numpad sends the same codes every time no matter what the numlock state is, that's up to the OS as well.

Since the numpad itself always sends the same codes, embedded laptop keypads within the alpha-block are a good example of when something has to keep track of its own state in order to function. If it didn't then there would be no way to type letters in those locations in the first place. It probably depends on implementation as to whether or not it would send numpad codes if something else enabled numlock on the system - it shouldn't though. What something like that should do is create and internal state AND turn on numlock for the system. If that's how it's done then an external numpad like that could indeed have numlock on and send the usual codes without interfering with the embedded numpad.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: StylinGreymon on Sat, 26 April 2014, 03:10:45
So is there an MX keypad that operates 'properly', as in sends keypad codes?
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as &quot;regular&quot; row 5 numbers
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sat, 26 April 2014, 06:56:53
So is there an MX keypad that operates 'properly', as in sends keypad codes?

The G80-3700.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: Acknown3 on Wed, 18 June 2014, 16:20:52
Has this been fixed on Qtan's newer models? I love this tenkeypad's form, but not the function.

Side note, it also registers the period key incorrectly:

(http://i.imgur.com/U1FjvVz.png)
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: ChillyVanilly on Wed, 18 June 2014, 16:37:30
I bought my Leopold numpad a while back and have the same issue.

I tried using HID Macros because it's USB device specific, and received limited success: http://www.hidmacros.eu/

My problem with HID is that it doesn't map to every possible key.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: daerid on Wed, 18 June 2014, 18:46:18
Obviously a DIY programmable 10-key is the solution
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: ficklampa on Sun, 20 July 2014, 10:49:08
I should've googled (or red the description) before I ordered a leopold numpad... :( Mine don't work with numpad codes either...

http://imgur.com/rXhkbgF

http://imgur.com/XKvnPSJ

http://imgur.com/Ka9UyI2


Anyone know if the Filco numpad sends numpad codes?
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: daerid on Sun, 20 July 2014, 16:10:26
I should've googled (or red the description) before I ordered a leopold numpad... :( Mine don't work with numpad codes either...

http://imgur.com/rXhkbgF

http://imgur.com/XKvnPSJ

http://imgur.com/Ka9UyI2


Anyone know if the Filco numpad sends numpad codes?

Nope. Bought one and sold it when I found out that it sends number row codes.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: ficklampa on Mon, 21 July 2014, 08:20:28
I asked keyboardco if they had any other models that sent normal numpad codes, I got this in reply: http://www.keyboardco.com/keypad/programmable-keypad-black-usb.asp

Seems to be using Cherry ML switches...
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: xprongs on Fri, 03 October 2014, 18:53:43
Sorry to bring up an old thread - but does anyone own one of the new Leopold numpad? (as seen here: http://www.geekkeys.com/leopold-fc210tp-21-key-numpad-grey/). I'd really like to get one but only if it sends numpad codes.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: ikonomov on Fri, 20 February 2015, 17:38:44
Sorry to bring up an old thread - but does anyone own one of the new Leopold numpad? (as seen here: http://www.geekkeys.com/leopold-fc210tp-21-key-numpad-grey/). I'd really like to get one but only if it sends numpad codes.

I just got mine and it does NOT send numpad codes.
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: Muffin860 on Wed, 27 May 2015, 00:17:15
I bought my Leopold numpad a while back and have the same issue.

I tried using HID Macros because it's USB device specific, and received limited success: http://www.hidmacros.eu/

My problem with HID is that it doesn't map to every possible key.

Care to share your exact code for getting this to work (or as close as you could get)? Or maybe a brief how to? I have used auto hot key before, but HID macros, (now LUA Macro) is much more dense, and their "how to" or "getting started" doesn't really help me understand it. I'm lost and could use some guidance. Thanks!
Title: Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
Post by: Muffin860 on Thu, 28 May 2015, 10:40:08
I bought my Leopold numpad a while back and have the same issue.

I tried using HID Macros because it's USB device specific, and received limited success: http://www.hidmacros.eu/

My problem with HID is that it doesn't map to every possible key.

Care to share your exact code for getting this to work (or as close as you could get)? Or maybe a brief how to? I have used auto hot key before, but HID macros, (now LUA Macro) is much more dense, and their "how to" or "getting started" doesn't really help me understand it. I'm lost and could use some guidance. Thanks!

After playing around some more I got it to work, but everytime I unplug the keypad, I have to re assign the macros to the new "device" because HID renames it. Is there anyway to make that static to the device everytime I plug it in