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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: wcass on Wed, 01 January 2014, 00:36:56

Title: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: wcass on Wed, 01 January 2014, 00:36:56
A new controller is working in a few different keyboards now; KishSaver and 122. It should also work for other IBM F type keyboards that use the 30-pin connected controllers such as the Unsaver, AT, and the 50 key. The XT and Model C have controllers built on the same PCB as the matrix, so it would not work on these without significant changes. It is called the DPH controller after the developers; dfj, Parak, and HaTaa. It is based on dfj’s design that he talked about back in August of 2011. Parak is doing PCB design and HaTaa is coding. The development is currently in ALPHA. Once it is out of Beta, there will be a group buy. I’ll do my best to answer questions while those guys work on the controller.

There are a few Model F keyboards working with this controller right now, but it currently requires an oscilloscope to tune each board (I did say this is ALPHA, right). HaTaa is working on “automatic threshold leveling” to fix that. A user interface for key mapping and macros is not done yet, so that must be done in the source. Windows and OSX compile of code are untested. If you are an EE or coder with an oscilloscope and want to get involved, ask me about getting a PCB. You can see the LGPL source code at …
https://gitorious.org/kiibohd-controller/capsense-beta/

PCB info to come.

So I have some questions for the folks reading this … do you expect to get one from a group buy (KishSaver buyers – I’m looking at you) and how would you like to get it (bare PCB, bare PCB and parts, assembled but un-programmed, or “can I ship you my board and have someone just make it work for me?”
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: snoopy on Wed, 01 January 2014, 04:39:22
I would love to get the pcb in something like a groupbuy. (sending the kishsaver internationally to get it converted would be a pain).

If assembled or not depends on the parts used. I can solder normal stuff.... but smd.... no... I once tried.... it worked, but didn't look good. Wouldn't do it again with the equipment I currently have. So unassembled + parts would be ok, if the parts are easy to solder. If not, I would prefer an assembled pcb.

Really looking forward to this.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: codyeatworld on Wed, 01 January 2014, 06:11:31
I'm up for any type of assembly, although I'd prefer if smd components were already soldered onto the pcb.

Awesome work so far.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: kishy on Wed, 01 January 2014, 11:31:31
You'd better believe I'd be in for one.

Possibly 3...I do have 3 of the 4 versions of the board. And actually a 4th sitting in a box too. Cost will determine how many more than one I buy.

If it's all through-hole and we're talking about an easy-to-program microcontroller such as the Teensy (e.g. no external burner required), I like a complete unassembled kit. If there's any surface mount stuff I'd be asking for pre-assembled.

Also - I do not have access to an oscilloscope, certainly to the dismay of dfj who's been telling me to get one for the last 3 years, but that does mean I would need something "self-calibrating" in that sense.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: The_Beast on Wed, 01 January 2014, 11:46:08
I'd love something that is pre-soldered and pre-programmed but I can SMD and through hole solder as long as there is a for idiots guide to programming the thing.


I'm also sure I could find an oscilloscope on campus, but I'd need an idiots guide to that too
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: HPE1000 on Wed, 01 January 2014, 12:17:04
If its SMD then I want predone, if its through hole then I can do it.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: JPG on Wed, 01 January 2014, 12:21:22
Hum, does it mean that there would be a possibility to build a 100% (or like 90%) new model F?

Let's say we make a new case and plate(s) and salvage the switches from an existing F and add this pcb?

Let me dream!
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: wcass on Wed, 01 January 2014, 13:16:36
Hum, does it mean that there would be a possibility to build a 100% (or like 90%) new model F?

Let's say we make a new case and plate(s) and salvage the switches from an existing F and add this pcb?

Let me dream!

there will be a test of this - check my next post.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: wcass on Wed, 01 January 2014, 13:23:22
PCB development is here:
https://gitorious.org/ibm-capsense-pcb (https://gitorious.org/ibm-capsense-pcb)

All of the prototype boards have been through hole, but many of the IC components that IBM used are no longer available so multiple discrete chips have been substituted. Chip count is about 50 compared to IBM’s 25’ish. Cramming all that into less than 10 square inches is challenging enough. But this project was originally started to create a replacement controller for all IBM capacitive keyboards, each with its own “keep-out” areas. Respecting all of those may require further miniaturization, so the final design might be surface mount. In any case, I’ll try adapting my XTant project (XT case with new key layout) to use this controller too. Economics of scale.

About those keep-out areas, let’s take a look at the original controller in the Kishsaver case. This first picture has the controller and key assembly mounted to the top cover (flipped over). All cables attach to the top side of the PCB (hidden).
[attach=1]

The next pictures are of the right side of the controller (middle of the keyboard). You can see the 3 pin header that goes to the daughter board. The USB cable is thrown in only for size comparison.
[attach=2][attach=3]

And left side of the controller (left side of case).
[attach=4][attach=5][attach=6]

You can see that there is no room for a standard USB cable exiting to the back of the case. It also looks like the sides above the controller mount screws are a bad choice because there is just not enough room for the USB jack. There does appear to be room on the left and right sides below the mount screws on both the top and bottom of the board for a mini or micro USB jack. All of the above is assuming that the USB jack is at the edge of the PCB. An issue with putting the USB jack in the interior is that it would require additional clearance which is not as abundant on the Kishsaver as on other IBM’s. There is slightly more room on the top than on the bottom. There would of course be room for non-traditional USB connections such as direct wire-to-board or double-row bent pin (like the original controller).

By the way, I will be posting both here and at Deskthority. I'm getting questions from both communities and will deliver updates and answers to both.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: vivalarevolución on Thu, 02 January 2014, 18:05:46
I am interested in this.  A controller with as many things presoldered and preassembled or whatever is what I would prefer.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: joneslee85 on Thu, 02 January 2014, 18:57:31
This is nice. Can't wait to buy this
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: Wildcard on Thu, 02 January 2014, 19:52:15
Very cool!
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: Aer Fixus on Thu, 02 January 2014, 21:07:51
Wonderful to see it installed in a board.

I'll have to participate in the Beta when auto-calibration is implemented... I can live without a UI, but I don't have an oscilloscope.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: kishy on Fri, 03 January 2014, 12:39:28
Wonderful to see it installed in a board.

That's the original controller, he's just showing it for dimensions/clearance reasons.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: Aer Fixus on Fri, 03 January 2014, 14:42:16
Wonderful to see it installed in a board.

That's the original controller, he's just showing it for dimensions/clearance reasons.

Silly me. I saw the USB cord and didn't read the post thoroughly to see it was for size comparison...
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 03 January 2014, 19:31:54
Silly me. I saw the USB cord and didn't read the post thoroughly to see it was for size comparison...

while that is indeed the original controller, I believe a 4704 kb has a prototype controller installed in it for testing.
There are a few Model F keyboards working with this controller right now, but it currently requires an oscilloscope to tune each board (I did say this is ALPHA, right). HaTaa is working on “automatic threshold leveling” to fix that.

I am, of course, very interested in this project.

edit: image of 4704-200 "kishsaver" kb in testing:
(http://i.imgur.com/trglHJ1.jpg)
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: vivalarevolución on Tue, 07 January 2014, 15:15:38
my kishsaver sitting there starring at me every day makes waiting the hardest part.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: Aer Fixus on Tue, 07 January 2014, 19:50:59
my kishsaver sitting there starring at me every day makes waiting the hardest part.
Ayup.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 08 January 2014, 01:03:08
Yeah, I'm definitely interested, preassembled or DIY kit.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: semyorka on Sun, 12 January 2014, 05:21:21
Definitely interested in this for a 122-key.  DIY PCB is OK with me, I have access to a solder reflow oven for SMD  ;D
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 12 January 2014, 17:13:34
Definitely interested in this for a 122-key.  DIY PCB is OK with me, I have access to a solder reflow oven for SMD  ;D

Welcome to Geekhack!

It's always nice to hear of other users being so well-equipped! Nevertheless, for the first revision at least, we want to make it easy to assemble, if possible.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: wcass on Fri, 07 February 2014, 18:31:49
Just an update ...

HaaTa is still working on "auto-tuning" (so that a oscilloscope is not needed) and building/improving the user interface. The latest version of the PCB took a while to come from the manufacturer. Test fit in a KS works, but is not as good as they would like it to be, so there will probably be another revision. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13176014@N03/11895955434/
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: vivalarevolución on Fri, 07 February 2014, 18:45:18
Just an update ...

HaaTa is still working on "auto-tuning" (so that a oscilloscope is not needed) and building/improving the user interface. The latest version of the PCB took a while to come from the manufacturer. Test fit in a KS works, but is not as good as they would like it to be, so there will probably be another revision. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13176014@N03/11895955434/

Good to know.  For the people that are working to make this a reality, thank you for existing.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: HPE1000 on Fri, 07 February 2014, 18:56:49
I honestly keep forgetting I even own this kishsaver day to day because I just have it in my closet stored away until we get these things running so I don't get so impatient. This is good news, I can't wait until this is done  ;D
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: berserkfan on Sat, 08 February 2014, 13:30:20
well done!

too bad I don't have a Kishsaver, heh.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: dgreekstallion on Sat, 08 February 2014, 18:58:28
Oh. My. God. This is so freaking exciting.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 11 February 2014, 09:25:48
Anyone need a Teensy++ 2.0 or two? I'm placing a group order for Teensy 2.0s, and I might be able to save us a bit on the Teensy++ 2.0 if we order 25+ of them. If there is immediate interest, I can order them with the Teensys I'm buying now (payment deadline Feb 21). I would be in for 2, and there are orders for 2 more in the current GB. So...21 more, anyone??

Link to TEENSY 2.0 GROUP BUY ROUND 2 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52859.0)
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 11 February 2014, 10:06:47
Not sure if you're counting me but I submitted my order for a Teensy++ 2.0 last night.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 11 February 2014, 10:21:09
Not sure if you're counting me but I submitted my order for a Teensy++ 2.0 last night.

I would never not count you. ;)
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: wcass on Sat, 15 February 2014, 13:32:57
An interesting developments; Hasu managed to to find a hidden "feature" of the native Kishsaver controller. He found that you can send a command to the controller that tells it to send break codes for ALL keys. This discovery means that a converter is a valid option for Kishsaver owners.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54706.0
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: wcass on Sun, 02 March 2014, 20:26:30
Before you ask, yes those are Teensy++ mounted upside down.
(http://i.imgur.com/eDPoza5.jpg)
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: vivalarevolución on Sun, 02 March 2014, 20:34:43
Before you ask, yes those are Teensy++ mounted upside down.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/eDPoza5.jpg)


Gorgeous.  Not sure how I could thank those that are working on this project.  If you get me your address before Easter, I'll send you an Easter ham.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: The_Beast on Sun, 02 March 2014, 20:35:59
Looks like a fun soldering project!
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: HPE1000 on Sun, 02 March 2014, 20:37:16
 :eek:

Awesome  ;D
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: snoopy on Mon, 03 March 2014, 05:35:56
Nice! :)
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: mashby on Mon, 03 March 2014, 10:40:32
I am just in awe of the collective talent that exists here at GH. Just amazing. :thumb:
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: vivalarevolución on Tue, 04 March 2014, 08:49:12
Just a general question about this controller:  will it be able to work with other versions of the Model F besides the Kishsaver?  I am asking in case I come across another Model F that needs a new controller.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: wcass on Tue, 04 March 2014, 17:34:58
Just a general question about this controller:  will it be able to work with other versions of the Model F besides the Kishsaver?  I am asking in case I come across another Model F that needs a new controller.


That's the plan.

Most of the Model F controllers (KS, AT, unsaver, and 122) share the same basic PCB and components. The big difference between the controllers is the firmware; each to support its matrix and intended host computer. All controllers have the same mount holes and 30 through holes to connect .156" pitch ribbon cable in one of two places - depending on controller model. The DPH controller has through holes at both ribbon cable mount points so it can be used as a replacement controller for any of these models. It will also be USB and allow you to define your own matrix.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: Pacifist on Tue, 04 March 2014, 17:38:03
Just a general question about this controller:  will it be able to work with other versions of the Model F besides the Kishsaver?  I am asking in case I come across another Model F that needs a new controller.


That's the plan.

Most of the Model F controllers (KS, AT, unsaver, and 122) share the same basic PCB and components. The big difference between the controllers is the firmware; each to support its matrix and intended host computer. All controllers have the same mount holes and 30 through holes to connect .156" pitch ribbon cable in one of two places - depending on controller model. The DPH controller has through holes at both ribbon cable mount points so it can be used as a replacement controller for any of these models. It will also be USB and allow you to define your own matrix.

Sweeet! Can't wait for it to be done for other F's
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 04 March 2014, 19:01:14
Just a general question about this controller:  will it be able to work with other versions of the Model F besides the Kishsaver?  I am asking in case I come across another Model F that needs a new controller.


That's the plan.

Most of the Model F controllers (KS, AT, unsaver, and 122) share the same basic PCB and components. The big difference between the controllers is the firmware; each to support its matrix and intended host computer. All controllers have the same mount holes and 30 through holes to connect .156" pitch ribbon cable in one of two places - depending on controller model. The DPH controller has through holes at both ribbon cable mount points so it can be used as a replacement controller for any of these models. It will also be USB and allow you to define your own matrix.

note that the xt and "bigfoot" model f keyboards have the controller on the same PCB as the switch matrix, so it's not likely you will be able to use this controller for those keyboards.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: hwood34 on Fri, 04 April 2014, 08:59:33
Any updates?
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: Techno Trousers on Fri, 04 April 2014, 11:02:01
Yes, please!
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: wcass on Fri, 04 April 2014, 22:20:47
Haata has got the user interface working. He said that he would be working on “key mapping stuff” this weekend. Auto-calibration is still a ways off, so even with this progress you would still need a scope to “tune” the controller.

All three guys are looking forward toward the ARM architecture used on the Teensy 3. These chips have more speed, power, and functionality; cost less, and are easier to source than the chips used on the Teensy++. Moving to the new chip will cut the number of discrete components – perhaps very significantly. The Teensy++ version of the controller has about 250 through holes in less than 10 square inches so it can be a challenging build even for an experienced assembler.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: JPG on Wed, 09 April 2014, 14:20:06
Once this is working, is there any plan to make a full pcb (with sensors and all)?


Like a new space-unsaver pcb for example?


Let me dream  :thumb:
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 09 April 2014, 18:58:48
Once this is working, is there any plan to make a full pcb (with sensors and all)?


Like a new space-unsaver pcb for example?


Let me dream  :thumb:

absolutely. The end goal would be all-modern model F before they run out completely. Though I would think a standard SSK PCB would be better.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: JPG on Wed, 09 April 2014, 19:29:35
Once this is working, is there any plan to make a full pcb (with sensors and all)?


Like a new space-unsaver pcb for example?


Let me dream  :thumb:

absolutely. The end goal would be all-modern model F before they run out completely. Though I would think a standard SSK PCB would be better.

I would be happy with an ssk, but since using an F122, the left functions and the terminal look with the F1-F24 keys has grown on me. I only find the numpad to make it too large and annoying to have my mouse so far, but the unsaver would be perfect for me! Yet an F-SSK would do the job  :p
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 10 April 2014, 09:03:33
Before you ask, yes those are Teensy++ mounted upside down.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/eDPoza5.jpg)


Gorgeous.  Not sure how I could thank those that are working on this project.  If you get me your address before Easter, I'll send you an Easter ham.

I will go in on this Easter ham GB with you prdlm2009
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: AKIMbO on Thu, 10 April 2014, 09:28:54
Once this is working, is there any plan to make a full pcb (with sensors and all)?


Like a new space-unsaver pcb for example?


Let me dream  :thumb:

absolutely. The end goal would be all-modern model F before they run out completely. Though I would think a standard SSK PCB would be better.

I would be happy with an ssk, but since using an F122, the left functions and the terminal look with the F1-F24 keys has grown on me. I only find the numpad to make it too large and annoying to have my mouse so far, but the unsaver would be perfect for me! Yet an F-SSK would do the job  :p

I would kill for a space unsaver. 
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: vivalarevolución on Thu, 10 April 2014, 09:51:00
Before you ask, yes those are Teensy++ mounted upside down.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/eDPoza5.jpg)


Gorgeous.  Not sure how I could thank those that are working on this project.  If you get me your address before Easter, I'll send you an Easter ham.

I will go in on this Easter ham GB with you prdlm2009

Funny story, actually.  I was living in this house in Indianapolis, and an Easter ham in a cooler showed up on the door step.  Apparently, the former resident received Easter hams from his employer.  We ate well for the next week.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: JPG on Thu, 10 April 2014, 10:00:02
Once this is working, is there any plan to make a full pcb (with sensors and all)?


Like a new space-unsaver pcb for example?


Let me dream  :thumb:

absolutely. The end goal would be all-modern model F before they run out completely. Though I would think a standard SSK PCB would be better.

I would be happy with an ssk, but since using an F122, the left functions and the terminal look with the F1-F24 keys has grown on me. I only find the numpad to make it too large and annoying to have my mouse so far, but the unsaver would be perfect for me! Yet an F-SSK would do the job  :p

I would kill for a space unsaver.


I would not kill since killing is bad  :p


But for a new space-unsaver built with 100% ultradurable materials (made to last 100 years), well yea why not!


By the way, anyone know if unicomp is able to produce the spring and pivot plate assembly or if it could be produced at a reasonable cost so we don't have to salvage some old model F?
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 10 April 2014, 10:01:26
By the way, anyone know if unicomp is able to produce the spring and pivot plate assembly or if it could be produced at a reasonable cost so we don't have to salvage some old model F?

You can buy the spring/flipplies on Unicomp. Not 100% sure if they're making them or they're NOS.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: The_Beast on Thu, 10 April 2014, 10:08:19
By the way, anyone know if unicomp is able to produce the spring and pivot plate assembly or if it could be produced at a reasonable cost so we don't have to salvage some old model F?

You can buy the spring/flipplies on Unicomp. Not 100% sure if they're making them or they're NOS.

Unicomp sells model M springs/flipper. Model F's use a different/longer flipper that might be a different material for the capacitance
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: JPG on Thu, 10 April 2014, 10:21:38
By the way, anyone know if unicomp is able to produce the spring and pivot plate assembly or if it could be produced at a reasonable cost so we don't have to salvage some old model F?

You can buy the spring/flipplies on Unicomp. Not 100% sure if they're making them or they're NOS.

Unicomp sells model M springs/flipper. Model F's use a different/longer flipper that might be a different material for the capacitance


I just opened a thicket with them asking if they are still able to produce/provide them and if they are able to share some specs from these 2 pieces!
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: E TwentyNine on Thu, 10 April 2014, 10:49:22
I just opened a thicket with them asking if they are still able to produce/provide them and if they are able to share some specs from these 2 pieces!

I asked them the same question a month or so ago.  Answer was a resounding no.

Which would make sense considering how Unicomp came to be,  the never dealt with F's.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: E TwentyNine on Thu, 10 April 2014, 10:49:59
Unicomp sells model M springs/flipper. Model F's use a different/longer flipper that might be a different material for the capacitance

It is a different material.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: JPG on Thu, 10 April 2014, 10:54:56
Unicomp sells model M springs/flipper. Model F's use a different/longer flipper that might be a different material for the capacitance

It is a different material.


Well, thx for the answers!
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: wcass on Thu, 10 April 2014, 11:45:39
It might be worth asking Signature Plastics if they can reproduce them. And while at it, ask about model F barrels.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: The_Beast on Thu, 10 April 2014, 12:21:26
Unicomp sells model M springs/flipper. Model F's use a different/longer flipper that might be a different material for the capacitance

It is a different material.

I thought so, and it makes sense but I wasn't 100% sure
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 10 April 2014, 19:45:41

It might be worth asking Signature Plastics if they can reproduce them. And while at it, ask about model F barrels.
I think they say they they do custom (not keycap) stuff as long as it's small, but Pricing would be high.

We may want to shop around for a plastics place that will be cheaper / easier to deal with.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: wcass on Tue, 22 April 2014, 09:10:45
It looks like the DPH controller ready for public beta. Auto-calibration is working so no scope is needed. The first thing you will probably want to do is to order PCB and parts.

The files needed to make the PCB are here
https://gitorious.org/ibm-capsense-pcb (https://gitorious.org/ibm-capsense-pcb)

The above has a BOM, but here is another that is all sourced out
https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=2e26f4ea5b (https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=2e26f4ea5b)

Teensy++ 2.0 (no pins)
http://www.pjrc.com/store/teensypp.html (http://www.pjrc.com/store/teensypp.html)

After you have built your controller, or at lease after you get your Teensy, you will need to build the firmware and program the Teensy. The code and instructions are here
https://gitorious.org/kiibohd-controller/capsense-beta (https://gitorious.org/kiibohd-controller/capsense-beta)

You should be able to get everything for about $50. If you want/need one of these but all this looks like too much for you, remember that there are folks in this community that contract out their skills.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 22 April 2014, 09:15:09
It looks like the DPH controller ready for public beta. Auto-calibration is working so no scope is needed. The first thing you will probably want to do is to order PCB and parts.

The files needed to make the PCB are here
https://gitorious.org/ibm-capsense-pcb (https://gitorious.org/ibm-capsense-pcb)

The above has a BOM, but here is another that is all sourced out
https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=2e26f4ea5b (https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=2e26f4ea5b)

Teensy++ 2.0 (no pins)
http://www.pjrc.com/store/teensypp.html (http://www.pjrc.com/store/teensypp.html)

After you have built your controller, or at lease after you get your Teensy, you will need to build the firmware and program the Teensy. The code and instructions are here
https://gitorious.org/kiibohd-controller/capsense-beta (https://gitorious.org/kiibohd-controller/capsense-beta)

You should be able to get everything for about $50. If you want/need one of these but all this looks like too much for you, remember that there are folks in this community that contract out their skills.

Very cool! Anyone down for running a GB to maybe get things cheaper/all in one package?
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: Wildcard on Tue, 22 April 2014, 09:22:29
Also how many flippers/springs do we think we'll need (perhaps we do a poll).
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 22 April 2014, 09:26:38
Also how many flippers/springs do we think we'll need (perhaps we do a poll).

I don't know where you'd get model F springs/flippers. Unicomp makes model M ones, but you can't use those on an F due to the smaller size and the plastic/material used

Maybe a GB of a model C (I think that's the model) or an XT to get some flippers/springs
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: riotonthebay on Tue, 22 April 2014, 10:40:31
Thanks so much to everyone involved in this!

Could someone please describe what steps I need to take to order a PCB, including a recommended manufacturer? Please explain like I'm 5.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: HPE1000 on Tue, 22 April 2014, 10:44:17
Also how many flippers/springs do we think we'll need (perhaps we do a poll).
Why do we need any in the first place?
Thanks so much to everyone involved in this!

Could someone please describe what steps I need to take to order a PCB, including a recommended manufacturer? Please explain like I'm 5.
This ^

Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: vivalarevolución on Tue, 22 April 2014, 11:12:22
It looks like the DPH controller ready for public beta. Auto-calibration is working so no scope is needed. The first thing you will probably want to do is to order PCB and parts.

The files needed to make the PCB are here
https://gitorious.org/ibm-capsense-pcb (https://gitorious.org/ibm-capsense-pcb)

The above has a BOM, but here is another that is all sourced out
https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=2e26f4ea5b (https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=2e26f4ea5b)

Teensy++ 2.0 (no pins)
http://www.pjrc.com/store/teensypp.html (http://www.pjrc.com/store/teensypp.html)

After you have built your controller, or at lease after you get your Teensy, you will need to build the firmware and program the Teensy. The code and instructions are here
https://gitorious.org/kiibohd-controller/capsense-beta (https://gitorious.org/kiibohd-controller/capsense-beta)

You should be able to get everything for about $50. If you want/need one of these but all this looks like too much for you, remember that there are folks in this community that contract out their skills.

Very cool! Anyone down for running a GB to maybe get things cheaper/all in one package?

I would do a group buy, although I do not need a PCB.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 22 April 2014, 11:47:15
Also how many flippers/springs do we think we'll need (perhaps we do a poll).
Why do we need any in the first place?
Thanks so much to everyone involved in this!

Could someone please describe what steps I need to take to order a PCB, including a recommended manufacturer? Please explain like I'm 5.

This ^

I'm also confused by these two things. How do we turn the Gerbers into a PCB? I'd be willing to help run or run a GB but I need to know how to get the PCBs made first. Second, why do we need more flippers/springs? When converting mine to ANSI, I removed flippers/springs. What layouts need more?
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: Parak on Tue, 22 April 2014, 12:00:44
I just pushed a small pcb change to nudge the resistor array into a place that less interferes with the kishsaver ribbon - so heads up for anyone that already got the project.

Couple of ways of going about ordering these:

For small volume orders, you can go with something like oshpark - I made a project here (http://oshpark.com/shared_projects/39BaVB0R). That gets you three nice quality boards with free shipping.

Alternatively, a group buy can be made via china (with quick turnaround), but is only worth it for a large number of PCBs, 20+ or so. If someone wants to organize that, I can help with the pcb fab contacts and such (I've dealt with them often).
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: Wildcard on Tue, 22 April 2014, 12:07:55
Also how many flippers/springs do we think we'll need (perhaps we do a poll).

I don't know where you'd get model F springs/flippers. Unicomp makes model M ones, but you can't use those on an F due to the smaller size and the plastic/material used

Maybe a GB of a model C (I think that's the model) or an XT to get some flippers/springs

I have plenty of Model F parts, just not a lot of time. But I would be willing to send my stuff to someone if they wanted to distribute it. We can also still get XT's off ebay for under $50, so it wouldn't take much to take these apart to distribute the springs and flippers to get the Kishsavers working again.

Edit: if the volume is low, I might also be willing to ship these out on a weekend.

...Second, why do we need more flippers/springs? When converting mine to ANSI, I removed flippers/springs. What layouts need more?

I'm assuming for people who have damaged springs and/or flippers and need replacements. I would think we'd want to get them working with the new controller first though.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: Parak on Tue, 22 April 2014, 12:20:57
I'm assuming for people who have damaged springs and/or flippers and need replacements. I would think we'd want to get them working with the new controller first though.

Well, springs can be had from unicomp unlike flippies. I don't think flippies would be a problem for anyone though unless they want to use every single possible barrel, in which case one or two might be needed (don't recall exactly).
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 22 April 2014, 12:34:13
Also how many flippers/springs do we think we'll need (perhaps we do a poll).
Why do we need any in the first place?
Thanks so much to everyone involved in this!

Could someone please describe what steps I need to take to order a PCB, including a recommended manufacturer? Please explain like I'm 5.

This ^

I'm also confused by these two things. How do we turn the Gerbers into a PCB? I'd be willing to help run or run a GB but I need to know how to get the PCBs made first. Second, why do we need more flippers/springs? When converting mine to ANSI, I removed flippers/springs. What layouts need more?

Well, if you wanted a split backspace, or a short right shift you'd need an extra 2 flippers/springs.

But for the most part, just making the enter longer (standard ANSI) and the left shift longer, you'd gain 2 springs (if I remember the OG tinsaver layout)
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: JPG on Tue, 22 April 2014, 12:53:19
I really need to prepare my wallet for the time when someone will say: GB for new model F layout = SSK or SpaceUnsaver, stainless steel (or hard anodized alu) case and plate, etc.


My poor wallet ...


My tears of joy!


My poor wallet ...  8)
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: wcass on Tue, 22 April 2014, 13:19:20
I think that we can probably help everyone here with as much help as needed based on your willingness to learn/pay.

Gerber file are packed inside the tar file that you can download from that first link. Tar files are just like zip files; most apps that open zip open tar too. You can send these files to a PCB fab. OshPark is a PCB fab in the US that specializes in small batch jobs - $5 per square inch for 3 copies of your board (includes delivery). That would make these boards about $13 each if you have 2 buddies to order with you. This part will probably take the longest to get to you.

The second link is to order the discrete components that will populate the board. if you will be making 3 (one for yourself and two for friends or to sell in classifieds) look for the "'Order Project' X 1" box and change that 1 to a 3. You might want to add a few extra in case of mistakes (these are cheap). You can get these same components from other sources too, of course (I like Digikey).

The third link is for ordering Teensy++ (no pins). I think that many of us might already have one.

The forth link is for the firmware (also in a tar file). You will need this to designates what key is mapped where. Compiling the source requires some skilz, but I'm sure that some folks here would be only too happy to share their layout - a small hex file (feel free to post those here). You use the standard PJRC tools to get the firmware onto the Teensy.

If you feel like a 5 year old, just wait and watch. No one orders one PCB and the components are so cheap it makes sense to order in batches. But you probably will need to solder the ribbon cable your self.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: wcass on Tue, 22 April 2014, 13:31:40
There might be a reason to do a Unicomp GB for buttons (Unicomp speak for caps) and inserts (for ANSI Enter and left shift).
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: vivalarevolución on Tue, 13 May 2014, 13:07:27
So has anyone been successful in constructing and programming this controller based on the most recent information from wcass?
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: Parak on Tue, 13 May 2014, 13:19:12
I think HaaTa and I are the only ones at this point, but it does work well with the default keymap.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 13 May 2014, 13:30:48
I'll have one made soon. I have all the parts, it's just finding the time to build it! :)
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: vivalarevolución on Tue, 13 May 2014, 14:48:18
Thanks guys.  Hopefully, I will get the time and motivation to get the parts and take a stab at it soon.  If I am successful, I might do it for hire for the others that want one.

In the meantime, I have a pile of bolt mods that I am trying to work through.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: Parak on Tue, 13 May 2014, 16:16:18
I'll have one made soon. I have all the parts, it's just finding the time to build it! :)

Where'd you get the pcb from, oshpark?
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 13 May 2014, 16:22:28
I'll have one made soon. I have all the parts, it's just finding the time to build it! :)

Where'd you get the pcb from, oshpark?

Yes, I had three made at oshpark. I need two of them, anyway, for a Kishsaver and an F-122 that likely has a broken controller. And one extra in case I mess something up. ;)
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: Parak on Tue, 13 May 2014, 16:38:43
I'll have one made soon. I have all the parts, it's just finding the time to build it! :)

Where'd you get the pcb from, oshpark?

Yes, I had three made at oshpark. I need two of them, anyway, for a Kishsaver and an F-122 that likely has a broken controller. And one extra in case I mess something up. ;)

Nice! The trickiest part is usually mounting the teensy - note how HaaTa has it mounted. You'll want it to be as low to the pcb as possible, while still allowing the usb cable sheath to fit.

Well, desoldering and resoldering the ribbon cable is tricky too, and will likely be the main cause of frustration :(
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: wcass on Sat, 24 May 2014, 17:35:29
I am not very good  and not very fast at soldering, but it is coming along nicely.
[attach=1]

I had so much trouble trying to de-solder the existing controller from my ribbon cable that i ended up just cutting it off. I'm going to try to strip the cable back just enough to tin and attach to the new controller. If that doesn't work, I found 8 conductor .156" ribbon cable here:
http://www.electronicsurplus.com/Item/152405/Waldom_Molex%20-%20Cable_%20ribbon_%2022-8C_%20-%2082225808/
I would need to run 4 cables instead of 2 (maybe a good thing), but this would be a lot tidier than 30 discrete wires. The minimum order is 10', but that would only cost $3.50. If i don't do it and someone else does - please share the love and pass that stuff around.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: hwood34 on Sun, 01 June 2014, 16:25:55
really looking forward to this
edit: who wants to make one for me :p
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: wcass on Sun, 01 June 2014, 21:49:44
Building it was really not bad. The toughest part was getting the ribbon cable off of the old controller. After spending about a half hour on that and getting nowhere, i gave up and just cut it as close to the controller as i could. It worked out just fine. More on that in a minute.

Take what I advise here with a grain of salt. I am not an expert with a soldering iron - in fact, i suck.

My assembly order was from shortest component to tallest. I started with the diodes, then standard resistors, the chips, switch, resistor array, then capacitors. The diodes, chips, resistor array, and that one odd capacitor have to go in one specific direction; don't put these in backwards or it will not work. This is where i stopped to take the picture in my last post.

Parak used diode leg trimmings to mount his Teensy; I chose to use standard header pins. I only had 32 instead of the 43 that there are holes for, but this turned out OK - the controller only uses 31 pins. I soldered the pins onto the Teensy first and then checked the fit on the PCB. It looked really tight, so i mounted the controller in the keyboard to get a better idea. The Teensy comes very close to the barrel plate, but does not touch.  But the opening for the USB cable was too small for my cable to fit inside. It turns out that this is a known issue - some mini USB connectors have larger heads than others. The smallest ones will fit with no problem; average size and larger need to have the the casing trimmed off. I kept the controller mounted and with USB cable connected while I soldered the Teensy onto the controller PCB so that i was sure that they would fit properly.

The final step was to connect the ribbon cable. I cut the old controller off, so i now had to strip some insulation from the cable. I used a razor knife to cut a line about 5mm back, flip the cable to the other side and cut on top of the first cut; use tweezers to grab a spot of insulation between the wires and pull. I tinned the wires to prevent the strands from splitting as i fed all 30 through the holes on the controller PCB (the second toughest part of building this).

And pictures.
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]


Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: HPE1000 on Sun, 01 June 2014, 22:11:08
Nice, is it all up and running?

I might order one of these in the next month or so, I also plan on getting my case powder coated soon and ordering new keycaps. This thing has been sitting in my closet in a million pieces for I don't know how long.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: wcass on Sun, 01 June 2014, 22:22:02
I'm typing this using it.

Building the firmware in Windows is complicated. You Linux/Unix guys will have no problems.

In Windows, ... start by downloading software.
You will need Cygwin (http://www.cygwin.com) , CMake  (http://cmake.org/cmake/resources/software.html), PJRC VSP driver (http://pjrc.com/teensy/serial_install.exe) , putty (http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/download.html) , and Atmel AVR Toolchain (http://www.atmel.com/tools/atmelavrtoolchainforwindows.aspx)
If you don't already have a Windows text editor that speaks Unix properly (Notepad and Wordpad do not; Notepad++ (http://notepad-plus-plus.org/) does), you will need to download one or use an editor under Cygwin.

Install PJRC Virtual Serial Port driver.
Install Putty. You don't need this for building the firmware, but for customizing it later.
Install Notepad++ (if required).
Install CMake (suggest you install to the default folder).
Install Cygwin. Avoid installing to any folder with a space such as C:\Program Files
Make sure that the following components are installed:
Run Cygwin Terminal once to create a user profile. Exit Cygwin.
Run Atmel 8bit AVR Toolchain - this will extract files to a folder. Enter that folder, select all files and folders and Cut.
Navigate to the folder that you installed Cygwin to. Paste the files and folders. You will be merging some folders - that is OK.
Navigate to the home sub folder inside your Cygwin folder; here you will find your user profile. Enter that folder.
Open .bashrc with your Unix compatible text editor.
Add the following line to the end ...
alias wincmake="PATH='/cygdrive/c/Program Files/CMake 2.8'/bin:\"${PATH}\" cmake"
The above line presumes that you are running a 32bit version of Windows and you installed CMake to the default directory. If you have a 64bit version of Windows, your line should look something like ...
alias wincmake="PATH='/cygdrive/c/Program Files (x86)/CMake 2.8'/bin:\"${PATH}\" cmake"
If you did not install CMake to the default directory, you will need to change this line appropriately.
At this point, your Windows box should have everything it needs to build and make the firmware.

Run Cygwin Terminal and type the following commands:
  git clone https://git.gitorious.org/kiibohd-controller/capsense-beta.git
  cd capsense-beta
  mkdir build
  cd build
  wincmake -G "Unix Makefiles" ..
  make


If you followed these instructions and i didn't leave anything out, you will now have a 44kb file named kiibohd.hex
You will need to plug in your Teensy and press the button to get it ready to program. You can load that hex file on your Teensy with the PJRC tool Teensy.exe or load it directly from Cygwin with the command:
  ./load
Windows will start alerting you that new devices have been found, then you can start typing on your new keyboard.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: HaaTa on Mon, 02 June 2014, 00:56:53
Also, a big hint when disassembling for the first time.

Clean the PCB.

Trust me, it'll make your life way easier and everything should just work. You don't have to use any special cleaner, just get all the dirt off.
Title: Re: New Controller for KishSaver and Other Model F
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 05 June 2014, 11:53:38
Quoting a post I made in the 6019284 Club thread:

OK kids. I got a hold of the powdercoater who did the Panavises (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51148.msg1229409#msg1229409) to look at powdercoating the 6019284s. Does anyone want to powdercoat their board? What color? I'm thinking industrial grey or charcoal grey. And of course purple. But if we're going to GB it, I'll have to compromise.