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geekhack Marketplace => Interest Checks => Topic started by: AKmalamute on Fri, 03 January 2014, 16:11:47

Title: [IC] aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Fri, 03 January 2014, 16:11:47: So, after talking with someone from a local company ... and apparently he couldn't read because I'm pretty sure I said in an email what I wanted and he wrote back asking what I wanted and hasn't written since I replied to that.

Then I did some more searching, and found another company in my town, and got some reasonable information. He didn't work up a quote but said the company typically had a MOQ of $150. He looked just at the keyswitch plate, layer-3 (with switch tool cutouts, of course), and knowing there were ten pieces total to make a keyboard case (that alone is a step above the other company's guy), he estimated that "Five people from your forum, hmm? Yeah that'd be pretty much there" Of course, I think he was guestimating on 1/16" Aluminum for every layer, and I'd like to talk about that in this thread, but...

vague guestimations are for $30/case to add lots of aluminum to your ergodox.

Now, that's cut metal ... no M3 screws, no tapping so you don't need a nut, no feet to add tenting. No GB fee to lubricate the gears of wallethack, no shipping, no PP fees. And currently that's probably 1.5mm-ish all the way through, which would need cork spacers in a few places.

I'm still excited to say I've made enough headway that I'm comfortable starting an [IC] thread. And I'd love to have an aluminum ergodox, of course.

I told the project manager I'd write back next week (still early January, in case this gets necro'd in a few months :p ) with more information about what "we" were looking for.

One thing I'd kinda like to see, is some extra aluminum or steel (I mentioned SS, he kept suggesting aluminum :rolleyes: ) plates. Just the plate, so semi-caseless designs like "swill's minimalist" design could be built.

But I'm at work so I'll just leave this here to percolate until I get some more stuff done and can come back.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: Puddsy on Fri, 03 January 2014, 16:13:55: So that's what, $60 for both hands?
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Fri, 03 January 2014, 16:24:08: Quote from: TacticalStache on Fri, 03 January 2014, 16:13:55
So that's what, $60 for both hands?
No I believe it's $30 plus some stuff, for the case.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: agodinhost on Fri, 03 January 2014, 17:43:05: Quote from: AKmalamute on Fri, 03 January 2014, 16:24:08
Quote from: TacticalStache on Fri, 03 January 2014, 16:13:55
So that's what, $60 for both hands?
No I believe it's $30 plus some stuff, for the case.
Way too cheap to be true - sorry pal, kinda hard to believe ...

I'm in
:D
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: JayKthnx on Fri, 03 January 2014, 20:01:04: In on this.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: daerid on Sat, 04 January 2014, 23:34:31: If this is true ($30 for a full set of aluminum plates), I'm in for 2 classic sets and 1 full hand.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Tue, 07 January 2014, 23:34:02: Okay by my count, that's up to five cases -- because I'm not, at this time sure Daerid, about full-hand cases, but I will ask.

Next step is to write to the company contact (tonight or in the morning) and say we have five of those cases I showed him. Currently, I'm thinking I should ask for 1/8th-inch aluminum for everything that isn't the keyswitch plate. I was hoping to have a little discussion about the various layers, but rubbersheetroll (.com I think but I'm not linking that 'til I find what I was looking at) has silicone sheets that could be cut to act as spacers ... also my current assumption, and why I might stick with 1/16th inch all the way through.

Actually, the existing design is supposed to stick out past the PCB so all the screws don't touch it, but would someone like to consider drawing a pair of sandwiching plates? Layers 1 & 3, but not any bigger than the PCB? My drafting skills are seriously lacking so I wouldn't, at this time, want to pay money for something I drew ;) but a two-layer-plus-rubber-pad case sounds both interesting and doable as an extension to this potential GB.

But then again, if we've got two designs, might as well through in the full-hand case. So a question I'll have, is how much of the projected cost is switching between designs? Might be best to stick with just the one, and maybe have a few extra runs of layers 1 & 3 as they exist now. More when I have it.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: eviltobz on Wed, 08 January 2014, 04:35:36: as you progress from interest check to actual buy you might find a few more people jump in too. i'm interested, but i don't want to commit to it just yet. seeing some examples of the sort of work the place can do might help - as someone else already mentioned, $30 for both hands sounds shockingly cheap, especially considering the quality control issues with massdrop's aluminium case, and iirc that cost a fair bit more than $30. also getting some idea of the weight and what sort of costs international postage would be are important too, as i'm in the u.k. so shipping could dwarf the cost of the case itself. depends on how things turn out :)
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: agodinhost on Wed, 08 January 2014, 19:22:22: count me in for 3 pairs.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: ShriekBob on Thu, 09 January 2014, 03:34:56: Same as Eviltobz. I'm interested, but am concerned about finish and postage.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: daerid on Fri, 10 January 2014, 13:11:19: Would love to see a prototype.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Fri, 10 January 2014, 13:26:58: Quote from: daerid on Fri, 10 January 2014, 13:11:19
Would love to see a prototype.

$150 MOQ, and as I haven't gotten a response to my email yet they may not really like dealing with such small orders despite the manager's willingness to give out his business card. But I will ask when I drive out there at lunch today, if we could get a prototype of at least three layers so I'd have photos to post.

Or barring that, would it be helpful if I got photos of just anything of that metal, cut with that machine, so you could see edges / finish? I'll ask for that too if the 'prototype' discussion doesn't seem to go anywhere.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: Wildcard on Sat, 11 January 2014, 02:12:10: I know I'd be in for 1 full hand, and probably 2-3 classics.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: JayKthnx on Sat, 11 January 2014, 02:33:18: Guess I should specify if like 1 classic set.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Sat, 11 January 2014, 11:28:46: I did go to the shop, the project manager wasn't there, and one of the floor foremen talked to me and said he was involved in a bit of a fire drill From tuesday through half of Thursday, and has been playing catch-up since then. That helps explain why he hasn't replied to my email.

the foreman left a sticky note on the manager's screen that I had stopped by and asked about the project, but at this point it's obviously going to be some time next week before I hear a reply.

Also, because I didn't see him, and didn't ask in the email for a quote, I didn't ask about samples of something resembling the work so I'd have photos to share. But I did ask about full-hand, although at that time there was only one person asking.

I'm still pursuing this, and as always more, when I have it to share.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 12 January 2014, 17:28:22: Would it be okay for me to get half of one (so one hand only) ?

If so I'm interested!

If not, I'm still interested and will be building another ergodox soon :P
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Mon, 13 January 2014, 15:25:53: Quote from: dorkvader on Sun, 12 January 2014, 17:28:22
Would it be okay for me to get half of one (so one hand only) ?

If so I'm interested!

If not, I'm still interested and will be building another ergodox soon :P
I can't imagine it would be that complicated. It's not like there'd be any reprogramming, just a different number of those layers.

I still haven't heard back, but I'll give him a bit more time before pestering him again.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: vivalarevolución on Mon, 13 January 2014, 20:50:58: I probably would be in for a full hand and classic hand.

I would be interested to see the final price.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: effnish on Tue, 14 January 2014, 19:34:23: I'm in for two.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: Wildcard on Tue, 14 January 2014, 19:43:44: Basically I need the raw plates cut. If they're rough afterwards or need to be tapped, I'm good with that. I just don't have the tools and patience to cut all these plates out of metal :)
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: Sniping on Thu, 23 January 2014, 00:46:17: Any word from the shop yet?
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Thu, 23 January 2014, 01:12:19: Quote from: Sniping on Thu, 23 January 2014, 00:46:17
Any word from the shop yet?
no, and I've had a busy weekend myself so I haven't had time to drive out and talk to the manager. But maybe Friday, I can do that.

I'm still interested, so I'll keep poking at him 'til he says he's not interested or gives a solid quote.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Fri, 24 January 2014, 16:26:50: Alright he looked at some spreadsheets this time, and said it will be even cheaper.

They've recently been taken down by spammer/trojans so no, he had never seen my email but I think we've got a line of communication now.

From looking at his spreadsheet of material costs, his estimates (I said we were up to about ten cases, all in 16gauge metal (1.5mm / 16th-inch, or real close to that)) was that, for 6061 aluminum, it would be about $12 for ten layers. Yes the price went down so I'll make sure I have solid number before we get to the group-buy stage but still. Also, you may notice that ten copies at $12/ea would be below the shop's MOQ. He said he'd be willing to put it through if we're that close.

Stainless steel (not sure if he was thinking 303, 304, 316 ... but surely one of the common ones) would be about the same ... per pound. So, double the cost.

Lets assume for a moment he was underestimating the size of the pieces and their un-nestability on a single sheet of metal. $15 for aluminum, $30 for SS, plus a GB fee, a PP fee, and shipping.

I've sent him the files for the full-hand case, so he can compare with the 'classic' case. I don't have a specific quote for the "minamalist" case (layers 1 & 3 ... or is that 5 & 3? anyway, plate and base) but at a guess, let's say $6, but that will assume we hit MOQ, in which case it will just be more copies of a particular layer.

I don't have any pictures, but when I asked for a sample, he showed me a piece going to another customer, who wants to tap 1/4" plate without drilling first. This showed me a couple of things -- one, their laser (if I understood aright, it was their portable laser, at that) can cut cleanly and straight, through 1/4" aluminum, and yes it looked to be to tight enough tolerances it could just be tapped and a bolt screwed in, no problems.

The sample piece had no scarring, no welts, no discolorations. It was just the bright, dull silverish color of aluminum. I did not, I'll grant you, ask how much time he might have spent polishing the sales piece for a potential customer, but I feel confident from what I've seen, that it's a reputable shop, and the project manager at least takes pride in his work (I lost my lunch hour chatting with him about a carbon-fiber-weaving aircraft-making robot arm that his company supplied parts for, and that he still goes and sees on his trips north to work with that company.

So, ten copies. can we do it?
Form of Counting (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1fAobVRTgNTGwHw6S9ZC-1qeT6mPyT5IeKoR5ZLkypuQ/edit?usp=sharing) now available.

No, I've never used Google forms before. Why do you ask?
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: Sniping on Fri, 24 January 2014, 21:09:28: I'm 200% down for one, but stainless steel or aluminum? Choices...is one harder/more expensive to anodize than the other?
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: tbc on Fri, 24 January 2014, 21:35:19: you can get us pics?

i'm trying to mimic the texture and look of a macbook pro and it's 'built-in' wrist rest. will this aluminum have a finish that matches it?
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: JayKthnx on Fri, 24 January 2014, 23:16:21: You would have to bead blast the aluminum to get that kind of finish.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Fri, 24 January 2014, 23:43:58: Quote from: tbc on Fri, 24 January 2014, 21:35:19
you can get us pics?

i'm trying to mimic the texture and look of a macbook pro and it's 'built-in' wrist rest. will this aluminum have a finish that matches it?

I don't have a camera that would do great justice, but let me tell you what texture / color it looked like: Google images, "machined aluminum" -- two images on the first page of results are of a lego keyfob, and a pair of dice. That's pretty close to what I saw today.

Quote from: Sniping on Fri, 24 January 2014, 21:09:28
I'm 200% down for one, but stainless steel or aluminum? Choices...is one harder/more expensive to anodize than the other?

SS is much harder, and denser ... and I believe is less anodize-able. The color is definitely different, too, although if you work enough, you can get SS to a mirror finish, whereas I've never seen mirror-finish machined aluminum. If a mirror finish is what you want, you might wander over to MKawa's Ti 60% plate GB ... $75/ea last I heard ;)
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: JayKthnx on Sat, 25 January 2014, 01:56:54: you can polish aluminum to a mirror finish if desired. it doesn't take very long to do either since it's a relatively soft metal.

btw. I added myself to the list for an aluminum classic and a steel minimal. if I can, I'd like to change the steel to a classic as well. Thanks!
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Sat, 25 January 2014, 02:07:23: Quote from: AKmalamute on Fri, 24 January 2014, 23:43:58
1) SS is much harder, and denser ... and I believe is less anodize-able. The color is definitely different, too, although if you work enough, you can get SS to a mirror finish,

2) whereas I've never seen mirror-finish machined aluminum.

3)If a mirror finish is what you want, you might wander over to MKawa's Ti 60% plate GB ... $75/ea last I heard ;)

1) It's not that realistic to anodize stainless steel. It's very difficult and you don't get the range of colors.

2) This exists...they make aluminum mirrors.

3) You know that was just an idle thought from Mkawa? I don't think he's actually going to mirror finish.

Did you include labor in your costs? The costs seem *way* too low.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Sat, 25 January 2014, 02:13:56: Quote from: CPTBadAss on Sat, 25 January 2014, 02:07:23
Did you include labor in your costs? The costs seem *way* too low.

As I said in the OP, these are the numbers I'm hearing from a shop, who presumably are used to including labor in their quotes. Yes, it's possible he's forgetting something and I'll try to get to the bottom of that ... if his email server ever lets me talk to him. There will be further costs in the form of shipping, and me driving to/from the shop but currently, this is what I'm being told it will cost.

Of course if a formal quote doubles the cost because of labor or what have you, sure you'll hear about it before I start a formal GB.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: Halverson on Sat, 25 January 2014, 02:15:45: Do you have any pictures that you sent to the shop? It is always nice to see in pictures what you are asking for.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Sat, 25 January 2014, 02:17:07: Quote from: AKmalamute on Sat, 25 January 2014, 02:13:56
Quote from: CPTBadAss on Sat, 25 January 2014, 02:07:23
Did you include labor in your costs? The costs seem *way* too low.

As I said in the OP, these are the numbers I'm hearing from a shop, who presumably are used to including labor in their quotes. Yes, it's possible he's forgetting something and I'll try to get to the bottom of that ... if his email server ever lets me talk to him. There will be further costs in the form of shipping, and me driving to/from the shop but currently, this is what I'm being told it will cost.

Of course if a formal quote doubles the cost because of labor or what have you, sure you'll hear about it before I start a formal GB.

Just FYI, most shops are charging around $100/hr for their labor costs.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Sat, 25 January 2014, 02:18:48: No photos, just the .dxf files, and ostensibly the full-hand .dxf files except he never replied so I think I'm still not getting through to him that way.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: Thechemist on Tue, 28 January 2014, 10:55:40: In for 2 Aluminum Classic, maybe more depending on final price and quality.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Tue, 28 January 2014, 18:58:12: So, including myself, and counting SS at "two" cases for cost purposes, we're a little over 8 cases assuming TheChemist just didn't see the form's link (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1fAobVRTgNTGwHw6S9ZC-1qeT6mPyT5IeKoR5ZLkypuQ/viewform) on the previous page. If we get up to 12, I'll start a GB thread.

On the bright side, I've received a reply from the project manager, and that means he does have the full-hand .dxf files since some time Friday afternoon.

So, I'll ask for pictures of their work in 16ga aluminum to pass along to you guys, and if his estimate was material only or was he figuring it wouldn't be enough minutes to add labor (he did say his laser machine was very fast -- I forget how many feet per minute but it was way up there.)

Last question is how they expect payment -- it might be that we'll need to run a GB, collect money and pay them to start; I know some places accept half-down but that's more common of contractor work.

How would you guys feel about being 'billed' twice? once now, to produce the parts, and once in the requisite number of weeks, for shipping once I have the things in hand and can get meaningful estimates for shipping.

USPS? UPS? Fed-Ex? Do we have international interest ( :eek: ) that I need to worry about?
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: tbc on Tue, 28 January 2014, 20:58:32: does the shop have some other options for finishes?

i would really like bead blasting.

i'm fine with the double payment thing as long as it'll be accurate. usps to canada please.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: lcs on Tue, 28 January 2014, 21:12:38: I filled the form :)

Interested in that price, and if agodinhost and I get them, only one shipping pls :P
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: Sniping on Tue, 28 January 2014, 21:35:58: Is it possible to get a sample picture for all the items? That would be very helpful, but not sure how hard that would be for you.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: clickclack123 on Tue, 28 January 2014, 23:39:39: This is relevant to my interests. Awaiting pics!
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: Anzial on Wed, 29 January 2014, 00:09:20: Joined to say that I'd be interested too. USPS international ;)
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Wed, 29 January 2014, 00:19:45: Okay, I'll ask -- but since nothing has been done, there's nothing to take pictures of; the cases don't exist yet. Most likely what you can see, is a picture of something else cut in 16ga aluminum -- and the piece on his desk looked like just that, aluminum. With a hole in the middle.

I have a few thoughts about how this could be handled, but I don't know how his shop or machines work, so my helpful suggestions for prototypes might not work out.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: tbc on Wed, 29 January 2014, 01:59:16: i'm definitely misunderstanding something here.

i read the op again and you mentioned layer; then you also said no screws or bolts? how does it actually hold together then?
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: litster on Wed, 29 January 2014, 02:23:23: Have any of you read about how massdrop's aluminum ergodox case turned out?
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: Anzial on Wed, 29 January 2014, 02:38:55: There's no MD ergodox aluminum case, just aluminum top, the rest of the case is acrylic. I read up about it and it seems early versions of the top were rather rough and didn't have any kind of treatment. Currently, they offer anodized aluminum top which seems to be quite nice from the previous drop in Dec 13
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: eviltobz on Wed, 29 January 2014, 03:15:53: Quote from: Anzial on Wed, 29 January 2014, 02:38:55
There's no MD ergodox aluminum case...
...anymore. because the ones they did in the first run turned out so disastrously that they needed some significant metalwork skills by the builder to get em into a usable condition. hence my earlier post that i'm interested, but reticent to jump in.

oh, and there's no-one as knows more about this ere case than litster, dude designed it :)
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: tbc on Wed, 29 January 2014, 03:43:28: so you're saying there WAS a full-metal case at one point? cause i've only seen and heard of the top plate
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: eviltobz on Wed, 29 January 2014, 04:24:17: yup. only for the first massdrop run. they stopped doing it for subsequent runs as it was sooooo problematic. just minor tolerence issues with cutting the layers, but enough that screw holes wouldn't line up well, the inside edges of the case would interfere with the keys and other such things. they needed quite a bit of work to get em sorted, and metal ain't the easiest of things to work with if you need to shave off a couple of mm here or there and you aren't already kitted out with the sort of tools that are needed for such a task.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: tbc on Wed, 29 January 2014, 04:47:18: so why is everything for ergodox always layered? is this just because of expense?

i think a two piece cnc full hand case would be badass. not sure how pricing works, but i imagine the design would be really simple and hopefully be cheap for it's size
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: lcs on Wed, 29 January 2014, 05:15:49: Quote from: tbc on Wed, 29 January 2014, 04:47:18
so why is everything for ergodox always layered? is this just because of expense?

i think a two piece cnc full hand case would be badass. not sure how pricing works, but i imagine the design would be really simple and hopefully be cheap for it's size

The problem is the size of the layers. The thickest the layers, the more expensive it is. Maybe too expensive then?
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: litster on Wed, 29 January 2014, 12:59:13: Layered cases are easier to design and produce. 2-piece CNC cases would be much better, it would be also much more expensive. We also don't have anyone with the skills to design it *and* the management skills to bring it to fruition.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: zed on Wed, 29 January 2014, 13:14:47: I really hope this actually happens. Even if the price is up to $60-$65. That is still really cheap.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 29 January 2014, 17:21:17: Quote from: litster on Wed, 29 January 2014, 12:59:13
Layered cases are easier to design and produce. 2-piece CNC cases would be much better, it would be also much more expensive. We also don't have anyone with the skills to design it *and* the management skills to bring it to fruition.

czarek has already designed a cnc case, is selling them in PVC, and is working on making it in aluminum. I think the price is expected to be significantly more though.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Wed, 29 January 2014, 18:21:03: Quote from: clickclack123 on Wed, 29 January 2014, 17:21:17
I think the price is expected to be significantly more though.
Then you've got the whole, mailing a giant hunk of aluminum from poland, issue to worry about. (Or wherever in the EU he is).

Yes, CNC would be cool, but I'm not that flush so, layered it is.

Quote from: tbc on Wed, 29 January 2014, 01:59:16
i'm definitely misunderstanding something here.

i read the op again and you mentioned layer; then you also said no screws or bolts? how does it actually hold together then?

I'm keeping my GB simple. So you'll have to source M3 screws at your local hardware store. Or use tiny zip-ties. Or baling twine, but the nylon off the 120lbs bales I buy would be way too thick to fit through M3-sized screws. You could always use tiny C-clamps ... >:D

But in order to not do my first GB badly, I'm concentrating on one thing. Layers of lasered metal. The rest is up to you.

Quote from: eviltobz on Wed, 29 January 2014, 04:24:17
yup. only for the first massdrop run. they stopped doing it for subsequent runs as it was sooooo problematic.

Now, I would have been fine about zip-ties (see above) for my own keyboard, but considering the example metal he showed me was to demonstrate to a different customer that his machine could burn bolt holes precisely enough that they could be tapped without drilling, I actually feel pretty good about the company I've come across.

Oh, and Litster! Welcome, and thank you! Your case is beautiful.

Also it uses Costar stabs. Does someone have the layer-three full-hand .dxf that uses the combined cherry/costar stabs ? I'm not so sure I do.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: zed on Wed, 29 January 2014, 18:54:46: Clickclack, do you have a link to the GB? Or is Czarek just out right selling them?
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: Wildcard on Wed, 29 January 2014, 19:04:00: Just submitted the form. I'm pretty interested in seeing how these turn out.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 29 January 2014, 20:13:15: Quote from: zed on Wed, 29 January 2014, 18:54:46
Clickclack, do you have a link to the GB? Or is Czarek just out right selling them?

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ergodox-pcbs-cases-electronics-and-assembly-services-t6972.html (http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ergodox-pcbs-cases-electronics-and-assembly-services-t6972.html) is where I saw it, he also has a thread here on GH. I PM'd him on deskthority to order.

Edit: 100th post! Yay me!
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: zed on Wed, 29 January 2014, 23:38:52: Congrats bud!
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: tbc on Wed, 29 January 2014, 23:49:31: thanks ak. i was visualizing you sending us a bunch of clamps and alot of glue lol :p
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: zed on Thu, 30 January 2014, 10:09:42: I wish we had pictures. *hint hint*
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 30 January 2014, 16:37:16: Quote from: AKmalamute on Fri, 24 January 2014, 23:43:58
I don't have a camera that would do great justice, but let me tell you what texture / color it looked like: Google images, "machined aluminum" -- two images on the first page of results are of a lego keyfob, and a pair of dice. That's pretty close to what I saw today.

[attach=1]

[attach=2]

I'm still finding it slightly hard to visualize what a layered ergodox case would look like made out of this.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: KaLam1ty on Thu, 30 January 2014, 17:27:41: Quote from: clickclack123 on Thu, 30 January 2014, 16:37:16
Quote from: AKmalamute on Fri, 24 January 2014, 23:43:58
I don't have a camera that would do great justice, but let me tell you what texture / color it looked like: Google images, "machined aluminum" -- two images on the first page of results are of a lego keyfob, and a pair of dice. That's pretty close to what I saw today.

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

I'm still finding it slightly hard to visualize what a layered ergodox case would look like made out of this.

Wow, its got a very industrial/concrete texture to it. I'm tempted to jump in on this..
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 30 January 2014, 18:46:41: I'm in for one at least. The price is hard to believe. :cool:
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Thu, 30 January 2014, 19:11:24: A couple of comments, not quite updates:
I emailed the project manager last night with some questions like pictures, prices considering we have full hand and classic models, the one request for bead-blasting, and I passed along our current spread-sheet's totals. Haven't heard back but I can drive out there Friday, hopefully get an update on this.

The more I look at it, the more I waver. Will it work as-is, or will a layer of corkboard be needed to separate the layers and make the sizing all work out? But one thing is certain, and that is I've garnered some interest. Enough interest that I'm pretty sure a GB would be successful, so once I hear from him I'll put a thread up to collect information.

And yes, those are the pictures that look like the example block. Very industrial, as KaLam1ty points out. I'm probably going to go SS, myself, but I'll probably get a few spares so I can decide after I have SMD work on my PCBs finished.

EDIT Friday, 1/31/14:
Okay this isn't worth double posting for, but I've spoken with the project manager, who says he's been busy, but will respond to my queries.

This much I have heard: they don't do bead blasting. Also, he recommends against it. He did say that, for a finish, they do "DA" to all their aluminum (I think that's a type of sand blasting)

He asked for a day or two, which I think is business days, so don't expect the GB page to start until Wednesday. Two things I'd like to ask of "the community" ... can someone copy/paste the hybrid stab-holes to the full-hand layer three .dxf file? All I have is Inkscape and I'm afraid I'll misplace the whole switch/stab hole completely.

The other thing, is I'll need help writing a google form to collect all the information. We'll need a way to distinguish: aluminum, and stainless steel, full-hand vs. classic, and whole case vs. two-layer minamalist. How do you devise a three-dimensional checkbox with numerical dropdowns so that folks can clearly order what they want?

As always, more when I have it.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: tbc on Sat, 01 February 2014, 01:40:25: what is two layer minimalist?
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Sat, 01 February 2014, 02:07:43: Quote from: tbc on Sat, 01 February 2014, 01:40:25
what is two layer minimalist?

An idea I have. Namely, layer 1 (I guess it's called five but that's silly. You build from the bottom and go up for most construction projects. Anyway, the plate layer that sits on the desk) followed by a pliable, inexpensive and non-conducive material of the buyer's choice (I'm planning, pretty much, on silicone rubber sheets cut to size) followed by the PCB with all it's fixin's, and the plate, layer 3, above which is nothing but keyswitches. And keycaps.

I haven't seen it done precisely, but I was inspired by Swill's "minimalist case design" thread and the 2-layer thing is my answer to that idea.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: Sniping on Tue, 11 February 2014, 21:12:25: Any progress yet?
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Tue, 11 February 2014, 23:56:44: We've all lost a couple days to a snow & ice storm, so I don't doubt the shop is a bit behind ... but I wrote yesterday, hoping to hear something. Haven't. The project manager is very eager and responsive when I'm physically talking to him, and I never get the impression he thinks our order will be too small for him to bother with ... but maybe it is.

I'm going to keep trying to get an answer from him though. Either a formal quote I can use to form a GB from, or that he doesn't have time for a single run with thin aluminum. I'll keep you guys apprised either way.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: tbc on Wed, 12 February 2014, 23:17:39: has this been tested to fit? Sorry if I missed a post earlier, but we're going for 5x1.5mm (7.5mm) right?

http://adereth.github.io/blog/2014/02/12/building-an-ergodox/

according to that post, the massdrop kit is 2x3mm + 2x5mm (total: 21mm)

is it going to fit?
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Thu, 13 February 2014, 11:22:33: Quote from: tbc on Wed, 12 February 2014, 23:17:39
has this been tested to fit? Sorry if I missed a post earlier, but we're going for 5x1.5mm (7.5mm) right?
[...]
is it going to fit?
I've gotten no comments to date about this. Kinda surprised.

I've not seen it done, but I'm leaning towards "no" ... but I have a plan, at least for mine. Add "gasket" layers of silicone rubber where needed. Those can be cut by hand with a razor; no real tight tolerances when its just a spacer / dust guard.

I really want layer three to be the expected 1.5mm ... and it would be simplest if all the rest are the same thickness, although if this goes well (going to drive out there and poke the mgr again) future runs may have just layer three at 16th-inch, and one-eighth inch for all the other layers.

For now though, perhaps for some this is just a way to stiffen their existing case ... or darken the otherwise clear acrylic with light-blocking aluminum.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 13 February 2014, 11:28:12: Quote from: AKmalamute on Thu, 30 January 2014, 19:11:24
This much I have heard: they don't do bead blasting. Also, he recommends against it. He did say that, for a finish, they do "DA" to all their aluminum (I think that's a type of sand blasting)

DA is dual action sanding I believe.

~~I'm still unsure as to how your design is going to work or look like but from what it sounds like, the case is going to be like a GON Skinny or a bent plate design. Or something thin.~~

It looks like it's going to be like my Epsilon case except there's going to be a layer of rubber/plastic inbetween, after I read a little more. So my explanation below stands.

Bead blasting introduces a lot of heat which might warp a thin aluminum piece.

I don't know what a DA finish would look like. But my Epsilon case had a brushed finish which was lovely.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Fri, 14 February 2014, 16:56:42: OK I spoke to the project manager today -- it seems there's still communication difficulties but he's promised to look at the files today and get a proper quote done today.

As there's nothing to take picture of, and a prototype would cost as much as three completed cases, I'm going to hold off in the hopes there will be some adventuresome types, and pictures can wait 'til a proposed "round two"

The aluminum will be 6061, the stainless steel will be 304, and all of it in 16 gauge, so yes as TBC's link shows, a little too thin all on its own -- standoffs or gaskets will complete the process.

I still can't find the "full hand" layer 3 (keyswitch plate) with hybrid costar / cherry stab holes. For those who are interested in the full-hand design, how badly do you want the hybrid cutouts (or will costar stabs suit you) ? Can someone qualified for the job copy/paste the hybrid cutouts for me ... otherwise I'll go with what I found, and thus the stabs will be different between full-hand and classic.

More, when I have it (which should be soon)
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: clickclack123 on Fri, 14 February 2014, 23:01:51: Good news, I hope it all works out. That guy's communication seems pretty bad though, from my experience off ebay and forums, when somebody's communication is bad it's not really a good sign for the quality of everything else and usually ends up pissing me off. On the other hand, bad communication can sometimes mean bargains to be had. Fingers firmly crossed.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: tbc on Fri, 14 February 2014, 23:53:44: I'm totally okay with a prototyping round 1. don't have a camera, so I won't be able to help document fix 'bugs' though.

i'm not picky about costar vs cherry, but I thought costar for BOTH thumbkeys per side was incompatible....I might have completely misunderstood. so if all 4 keys can be costared with dsa caps, I'm happy.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: JayKthnx on Sat, 15 February 2014, 01:01:25: I'd rock a prototype for you. Feel free to pm me if you'd like. I'm interested in trying a minimal case as well, so this could end up being a fun little adventure. :D
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Wed, 26 February 2014, 16:25:16: okay, finally. Email incoming I hope, but I have a firm, real number for the classic case is 16ga 6061 aluminum.
$32.25 / each.

Not as cheap as I'd initially hoped but it's at least not too-good-to-be-true cheap. Classic case in stainless steel is supposed to be "in the forty to fifty something range" -- real number should be incoming or if not I guess I drive back out there Friday.

At work, no time to say more.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: skcheng on Wed, 26 February 2014, 16:38:53: Quote from: AKmalamute on Wed, 26 February 2014, 16:25:16
okay, finally. Email incoming I hope, but I have a firm, real number for the classic case is 16ga 6061 aluminum.
$32.25 / each.

Not as cheap as I'd initially hoped but it's at least not too-good-to-be-true cheap. Classic case in stainless steel is supposed to be "in the forty to fifty something range" -- real number should be incoming or if not I guess I drive back out there Friday.

At work, no time to say more.

I would prefer SS. But in for aluminum as well if that's the only option. Very cool. Looking forward to seeing the prototype.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: justnits on Wed, 26 February 2014, 20:20:16: Quote from: AKmalamute on Wed, 26 February 2014, 16:25:16
okay, finally. Email incoming I hope, but I have a firm, real number for the classic case is 16ga 6061 aluminum.
$32.25 / each.

Not as cheap as I'd initially hoped but it's at least not too-good-to-be-true cheap. Classic case in stainless steel is supposed to be "in the forty to fifty something range" -- real number should be incoming or if not I guess I drive back out there Friday.

At work, no time to say more.

this is a one piece case per hand, 2 piece case per hand or sheets type like the massdrop acrylic sheet per hand?
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: tbc on Wed, 26 February 2014, 21:28:23: i'm probably going to order 1 pair of both types. hopefully it fits within $200 total
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Wed, 26 February 2014, 22:27:31: Quote from: justnits on Wed, 26 February 2014, 20:20:16
this is a one piece case per hand, 2 piece case per hand or sheets type like the massdrop acrylic sheet per hand?

Sheets. 1.5mm or so, like the PCBs. This is the thickness that Cherry recommends for switch plates, so I pursued this thought specifically. However, as you'll read a few posts back, even using double that for all five layers, it's a bit tricky to build -- so you'll want stand-offs or a gasket layer, or something else.

Quote from: tbc on Wed, 26 February 2014, 21:28:23
i'm probably going to order 1 pair of both types. hopefully it fits within $200 total

Okay, so: making a few guesses about the stainless steel version of same. We've got for aluminum: 32.25 + sales tax (8.7% I'm pretty sure) then shipping (I'll generalize to $10 but I may have to adjust that when the actual shipping time comes around) and then a tiny GB fee as much to keep guestimations in the black as anything else (I was thinking $2 per person) then paypal fee.

Using those assumptions, an aluminum case comes out to just under $50, CONUS. Making a wild guess that the SS starts at $52, then the same ten layers in 304 stainless come out to $72 CONUS.

It's a bit of a guess, but if folks want, I can start collecting orders for those two shapes.

What's left, and since I didn't get an email what I guess I have to pester him again about, is: full hand prices, and also "minimalist" prices. But laser time shouldn't significantly go up making the full-hand case, although the metal nearly doubles, which will push the shipping up almost for sure.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: justnits on Thu, 27 February 2014, 00:25:51: Quote from: AKmalamute on Wed, 26 February 2014, 22:27:31
Quote from: justnits on Wed, 26 February 2014, 20:20:16
this is a one piece case per hand, 2 piece case per hand or sheets type like the massdrop acrylic sheet per hand?

Sheets. 1.5mm or so, like the PCBs. This is the thickness that Cherry recommends for switch plates, so I pursued this thought specifically. However, as you'll read a few posts back, even using double that for all five layers, it's a bit tricky to build -- so you'll want stand-offs or a gasket layer, or something else.

hmm...so basically this is the same dimension and thickness as massdrop's? as in, same thickness per sheets?
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Thu, 27 February 2014, 11:38:18: Quote from: justnits on Thu, 27 February 2014, 00:25:51
hmm...so basically this is the same dimension and thickness as massdrop's? as in, same thickness per sheets?
No, half the thickness in some places, and thinner in others.

As has been discussed in other threads, Massdrop's acrylic is like this:

5mm
3mm
3mm
3mm
5mm

And I don't like several things about that arrangement, not least of which is that I want my keyswitches to clip into place on the plate. So rather than make a bunch of plates but leave the rest to somebody else to cut into acrylic I decided to pursue aluminum, with plans to connect them with silicone rubber where absolutely necessary.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: eviltobz on Fri, 28 February 2014, 10:03:14: Quote from: AKmalamute on Wed, 26 February 2014, 22:27:31
Using those assumptions, an aluminum case comes out to just under $50, CONUS.
Are you just considering CONUS destinations for now, or might you be able to flog em worldwide? If so, any chance of getting estimates for sending to the UK?

Cheers :)
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Fri, 28 February 2014, 11:18:36: Quote from: eviltobz on Fri, 28 February 2014, 10:03:14
Quote from: AKmalamute on Wed, 26 February 2014, 22:27:31
Using those assumptions, an aluminum case comes out to just under $50, CONUS.
Are you just considering CONUS destinations for now, or might you be able to flog em worldwide? If so, any chance of getting estimates for sending to the UK?

Cheers :)
I think for round one, I'm going to stick to CONUS -- and the reason is, by the end of round one I'll have physical things, so I'll know how much the packaging weighs. Right now I'm just guessing, and it means I know my estimates will be farther off than if I stick to CONUS where I've got more leeway.

But I hope to have a round 2, based on what I'm seeing shape up for round one.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: Tarzan on Fri, 28 February 2014, 11:34:12: I'd be in for a steel case. Aluminum if that's all that gets created.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: eviltobz on Fri, 28 February 2014, 13:42:49: fair enough. i'll be keeping an eye on the thread anyway, see how it all works out. i'd planned to make myself a wooden case for my second dox, so the race is on, round 2 of the alumicase or me stopping procrastinating and getting on with making something ;)
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Fri, 07 March 2014, 18:02:34: Okay I caught up with the manager again, and it was a simple miscommunication why this hasn't gone any farther before now.

So, here's what I have:
Cost to get these cases into my hands: 6061 Aluminum, $32.25; 304SS $48.50. Minamalist cases, he assured me if I prorated by surface area (so, 40% of classic case prices) he'd make it go through.

I have enough information to proceed with a group buy, if you'd like. Figuring local taxes, shipping, and paypal fees, I would plan on collecting $49 / $23 for aluminum, and $70 / 32 for stainless. Those numbers assume CONUS shipping.

Are we still in? Shall I head to the GB subforum for a round one?
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: vivalarevolución on Fri, 07 March 2014, 19:02:19: I would be in. That price sounds too good to be true, but regardless, I would be in. The acrylic case looked cool for awhile, but now it's just gross.
Title: Re: aluminum ergodox case?
Post by: AKmalamute on Fri, 07 March 2014, 19:05:03: you are in LUCK (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55651.0), mister prdlm2009!

EVERYONE, find my GB thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55651.0) and consider!