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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Moe Bricks on Tue, 07 January 2014, 18:31:51
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I was looking into buying a Filco Magestouch and I'd really like to buy one, but I'm having concerns about the long term use of typing on one. I'm not sure now, is an ergonomic worth it? Or should I just go for the Filco? Please help, I'd really appreciate it.
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Welcome to Geekhack!
While waiting for tp4 to check in, an ergonomic keyboard (e.g. Ergo Dox) seems to be perfect for a lot of people.
OTOH many more people are satisfied with a standard keyout.
A few others prefer a matrix layout, not staggered.
Personally a standard ANSI layout keyboard, preferably TKL, is best for me, with the occasional dabble in 60%.
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I've been exclusively using my ergodox for the last month or so now to learn the layout, but I still prefer the standard ANSI layout of my RF 87u, as well as Topre is still my favorite switch. Either way you go, its a good decision. Just make sure the ergo you get is a mech :)
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Why not both?
Ergodox in a couple months when the next massdrop comes
Then truely ergonomic and kinises advantage
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Have you used a standard keyboard in the past without developing ergonomics issues? If the answer is yes, you can safely get a standard keyboard. If you have not, you can get a cheap one to determine if you will have problems with the Filco. Be aware however that many ergonomic issues are caused by the angle your arms and wrists are at while typing and how they contact anything for support.
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Have you used a standard keyboard in the past without developing ergonomics issues? If the answer is yes, you can safely get a standard keyboard. If you have not, you can get a cheap one to determine if you will have problems with the Filco. Be aware however that many ergonomic issues are caused by the angle your arms and wrists are at while typing and how they contact anything for support.
Well I've been on a standard keyboard all my life, and to be honest I kind of type on it with ergonomic wrist placement (wrists coming in at an angle), but I'm wondering if this is simply because I'm young or haven't used a keyboard for a really long time? Like if you use proper form on a standard keyboard, can you prevent ergonomic problems? I mean I'm not that big of a fan of the look of an ergonomic keyboard, but if it's going to prevent future conditions then it's probably a good investment.
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If you're looking for ergonomics, you should check out the ergodox, kinesis, teck, maltron...
However most people prefer to use either a staggered or matrix, not both, so if you switched it wouldn't be as nice to use any other normal keyboard. Many people love these keyboards (e.g. tp4tissue), while many prefer normal staggered ones. However, you are certainly not guaranteed to develop pain issues just from sticking with a normal layout. If you already have RSI or something similar, a board like this might be able to mitigate it, though.
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(http://www.emotasia.com/wp-content/uploads/totally-naughty-panda-emoticon-23.gif)
It's like you guys are stealing what I was about to say...
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Have you used a standard keyboard in the past without developing ergonomics issues? If the answer is yes, you can safely get a standard keyboard. If you have not, you can get a cheap one to determine if you will have problems with the Filco. Be aware however that many ergonomic issues are caused by the angle your arms and wrists are at while typing and how they contact anything for support.
Well I've been on a standard keyboard all my life, and to be honest I kind of type on it with ergonomic wrist placement (wrists coming in at an angle), but I'm wondering if this is simply because I'm young or haven't used a keyboard for a really long time? Like if you use proper form on a standard keyboard, can you prevent ergonomic problems? I mean I'm not that big of a fan of the look of an ergonomic keyboard, but if it's going to prevent future conditions then it's probably a good investment.
Broadly all keyboards are mechanical.
This web-forum is composed of 2 main categories.
1___People who just wants to make their keyboard more Pretty.
2___People who want to optimize the usability of their keyboard..
There will be a population that overlap these two groups... but distinction must be made because the Pretty-keyboard people are of the majority and they neither know nor care to know what makes a keyboard function, as long as they can throw money at some trinket that temporarily fills that emptiness feeling inside them.
If your goal here is just to join the dress-up crowd.. buy whatever you like, it will make no difference..
If your goal is to Maximize the FUNCTION of your keyboard, then you must buckle down, IGNORE the pretty-keyboard people (mostly-kids).. and buy an Ergodox..
There are Currently NO ALTERNATIVES that surpass the Ergodox in ANY WAY in terms of function...
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or if you want to be an ergodox elitist buy an ergodox. i don't think you could pay me to use one. i bet it functions really well for gaming.
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or if you want to be an ergodox elitist buy an ergodox. i don't think you could pay me to use one. i bet it functions really well for gaming.
Your posts are really annoying, j3. If you can only tell people about how cool you think you are because you don't use a keyboard, don't ever post.
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or if you want to be an ergodox elitist buy an ergodox. i don't think you could pay me to use one. i bet it functions really well for gaming.
works fine. why?
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or if you want to be an ergodox elitist buy an ergodox. i don't think you could pay me to use one. i bet it functions really well for gaming.
What is wrong with the ergodox? How could you not take money to type on an amazing keyboard?! :-\ (ps anybody want to pay me to use an ergodox? :p )
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Why not both?
Ergodox in a couple months when the next massdrop comes
Then truely ergonomic and kinises advantage
That is pretty much a given, the majority of the geekhackers here are using mechanical keyboard of some sort. So choosing mechanical keyboard is pretty much a must. I think you will also find most people come here are referred more or less to mechanical based first.
On the subject of ergonomics, there are many approach to this. Everyone has their own tastes of how ergonomic keyboards should be designed. This is only discussing mainly on ergonomic keyboard with mechanical (or part thereof) switches. I guess it may help if one has tried ergonomic (it doesn't have to be ergonomic and mechanical for this particular case) keyboard and didn't mind the style, maybe it would be easier to sort of kill two birds with one stone (also simplifying the costs) by just getting ergonomic keyboard with mechanical switches.
On the other hand, in some retrospects ergonomic keyboard may require one to get used to the way the keyboard is designed. Depending on how much exposure and/or how much effort you are willing to put into it, such factors can vary greatly. If one is going to type a lot for instance, ergonomic keyboard may tend to relief some stress notably with the way the design in a bid to relieve issues. Mechanical keyboards may also do the same if one again also tries to learn the best ways of typing as such on the keyboard. I think you will also find that once switching to mechanical keyboards, you may find standard keyboards are really not that much fun anymore to type on compared to mechanical ones. Maybe the same may also apply should you also learn to use ergonomic based keyboard.
If you are on a budget, the best idea is to try mechanical keyboard first. You may find out later on that you probably cannot live without typing on mechanical keyboard. When that time comes, you would not only know what mechanical keyboard felt like but also have an understanding (maybe) of a keyboard switch that may suit you the most. There are all sorts of various keyboard switches out there, not everyone likes all of them (equally as well) so it is probably a good idea to start with something small before moving onto something bigger.
Personally I have noticed that with just any old keyboard (regardless if it is mechanical or not) that I find I tend to put the keyboards on a different angle (no, not using the legs underneath the keyboard). At times I have the keyboard slanted to one direction (when facing the screen) then I may change to slant slightly the other way. I think maybe if I use ergonomic (and mechanical) keyboard it may prevent me from constantly putting my keyboard on various angles. That said, I am getting an ergonomic (and mechanical) keyboard in the mail. Soon enough I should be able to see if a mechanical keyboard with ergonomic layout will suit me better or not. If for instance you also notice that you put keyboards on one angle, then it maybe in hindsight that you may desire (slightly) to ergonomic keyboard. For the record, no I am not getting ErgoDox.
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To embrace the Ergodox is not a matter of emotion; There is no elevation of my status or any distortion of my perception upon my own existence, for simply having purchased one.
To embrace the Ergodox is to maximize the comfort of a vital control interface between man and machine.
The older-rectangular keyboards are adequate for many / most people. This is TRUE. But, it is already readily apparent that our use of computers will only ever be increasing..
You want to shovel snow without gloves on, that's only fine for a few minutes...
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There are Currently NO ALTERNATIVES that surpass the Ergodox in ANY WAY in terms of function...
Wow.... I thought TP was going Borg, but it appears his emotions are still very much intact (not just his emoticons). ;)
I'd have to say the Kinesis Advantage and Maltron do surpass the Ergodox in terms of ergonomics and layout (particularly the Maltron). But the Maltron is expensive. The ErgoDox has an advantage in programmability.
The upcoming Nexus (by AcidFire) takes the ErgoDox concept to the next level, with angled and customisable thumb button clusters and adjustable tenting angle.
They all use Cherry MX switches and are thus all "mechanical" boards like the Filco.
I bought a Ducky TKL, tried learning to touch-type and then turned the Ducky into this when I got frustrated:
[attach=1]
It doesn't have the curved keywells of the Kinesis and Maltron, but it's better than an ErgoDox (for me, that is).
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There are Currently NO ALTERNATIVES that surpass the Ergodox in ANY WAY in terms of function...
Wow.... I thought TP was going Borg, but it appears his emotions are still very much intact (not just his emoticons). ;)
I'd have to say the Kinesis Advantage and Maltron do surpass the Ergodox in terms of ergonomics and layout (particularly the Maltron). But the Maltron is expensive. The ErgoDox has an advantage in programmability.
The upcoming Nexus (by AcidFire) takes the ErgoDox concept to the next level, with angled and customisable thumb button clusters and adjustable tenting angle.
They all use Cherry MX switches and are thus all "mechanical" boards like the Filco.
I bought a Ducky TKL, tried learning to touch-type and then turned the Ducky into this when I got frustrated:
(Attachment Link)
It doesn't have the curved keywells of the Kinesis and Maltron, but it's better than an ErgoDox (for me, that is).
The words don't belong in parentheses.
Anyways IMO every keyboard fits its user. Ergonomic keyboards are not a one-fits-all, and you may like the flat matrix layout and more customizable design of the Ergodox, or the innovative lower-reach key wells on the Kinesis. You also won't have to do a lot of soldering, for that matter.
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Well, I must say this is going to be a tough decision for sure. Any positive views of the Kinesis Freestyle? I don't know, all the ergonomic mechanicals are so damn expensive.
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Well, I must say this is going to be a tough decision for sure. Any positive views of the Kinesis Freestyle? I don't know, all the ergonomic mechanicals are so damn expensive.
It seems pretty bad to me, because it's still staggered, which is worse for your fingers, and it's membrane, which is also worse for your fingers. The Ergodox is divided like the freestyle except it's matrix and can be adjusted in the 3-D plane as desired because it has telescoping legs.
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Honestly, I'd totally be down to get an Ergodox if it wasn't an arts and crafts project. The keyboard just isn't consumer friendly at all.
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Now you can have both mechanical and semi-ergonomic:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53184.0
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Magestouch
Such a magical feeling.
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Magestouch
Such a magical feeling.
So I've heard, I'm wary about the reported pinging noises with it though, and also about the use of a standard keyboard layout and also the price. I mean, as far as a standard keyboard goes I understand that it's top of the line, but I'm paranoid about spending all my money on it haha.
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or if you want to be an ergodox elitist buy an ergodox. i don't think you could pay me to use one. i bet it functions really well for gaming.
works fine. why?
because there is no way i could play dota with keys on both sections
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because there is no way i could play dota with keys on both sections
Then program a second DOTA layer on the left hand side. Added bonus: you don't move your hands as much
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how many keys exactly do you need?
the board is completely customizable; any key = any character outputted.
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how many keys exactly do you need?
the board is completely customizable; any key = any character outputted.
over 50 keybinds and if i use legacy keys it will change the ability keys for every hero. i've been trying to switch to QWER but i might end up going back to legacy.
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Matias just announced a Ergonomic keyboard so you have one commercially available from a vendor.
Now you get best of both worlds:
http://www.matias.ca/ergopro
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Well, I must say this is going to be a tough decision for sure. Any positive views of the Kinesis Freestyle? I don't know, all the ergonomic mechanicals are so damn expensive.
I haven't heard many comments about the Freestyle but the Goldtouch V2 got raves by Gerk, a long time GHer. If you think you would benefit by using an ergo board, but can't afford the $200+ a mechanical one will cost, I wouldn't hesitate going that route. Had I done that 2 years ago, I'd be a couple thousand dollars richer and it would have likely still improved my ergo issues significantly.
I don't regret going the route I went, it is an interesting pastime and I've learned a lot in the process. The real question is, do you just want to practice 'safe typing' or do you want a new hobby?
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Matias just announced a Ergonomic keyboard so you have one commercially available from a vendor.
Now you get best of both worlds:
http://www.matias.ca/ergopro
It's only semi-ergonomic really. It helps with pronation and horizontal wrist angles, but not finger movement angles, unbalanced finger usage, and twisting due to the stagger. Also keeps the thumbs too high. A step in the right direction, though, and worth the OP's consideration.
I agree that different boards suit different people, but some aspects are quantifiably more or less ergonomic in general. ErgoDox's flat thumb clusters make it hard to reach the far thumb keys and an angled thumb cluster is more natural and ergonomic.
If I were already able to properly touch-type on a normal qwerty board, the Matias would be what I'd get, but I went for something further along the ergonomic path as my first touch-typing board since I know it will be better for the long-term health of my fingers, wrists and arms. For the record I have been non touch typing for 30 years or so.
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Interesting...and what exactly is touch typing as opposed to, regular typing I suppose?
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Typing without bottoming out
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Typing without bottoming out
O rings? ;D
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Orings are for people who bottom out but want to silence the 'thud' of bottoming out
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Interesting...and what exactly is touch typing as opposed to, regular typing I suppose?
Typing without bottoming out
Ummm... no..
Touch typing is typing without looking at the keyboard, as in typing by touch instead of sight. If you need to look at the keys when typing, you are not touch typing.
I decided to try to learn it, because it is supposed to be the "proper" way to type.
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Oh, in that case I already to touch type and have touch typed for a long time lol
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I think touch typing is not just 'not looking at the keyboard' but that you place both hands on the keyboard and each fingers type a set of fixed keys. So, all your fingers are getting the work out. I don't look at the keyboard when I typed but I don't touch type - I am basically just using a few of my fingers - pointer, middle, thumb and ring finger - my pinky are useless.. and I am basically just poking at the keyboard without looking and at very high speed. Bad bad way to type so an ergo board is useless for me.
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So have you decided to go with mechanical, ergonomic or both? Probably the safest bet is to stick with mechanical at first then when you feel like you want to step up the plate you can then get ergonomical keyboard with mechanical switches. That is how I would personally do it anyway.
As I said before, killing two birds with one stone (that is by getting ergonomic keyboard with mechanical switches) is nice if you put more time and effort into it however if you do not like the layout, etc it can end up as one whole bad experience (regardless if it was the fault of the ergonomics and/or the mechanical switch is not as pleasant).
If you are new to mechanical keyboards in general you should stick with just a mechanical keyboard with ergonomics. There are many ways to make a mechanical keyboard feel nicer for the end user such as swapping Cherry MX switches to using heavier rubber weights on Topre. Changing the layouts such as split keyboard designs is another way to tackle it along with having the split keyboards far apart from each other. Split keyboard designs heavily emphasises the need for one to touch type (as similar as having keyboards with legendless keys). Then there are people whom would prefer non-staggered layout to staggered layout.
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I think touch typing is not just 'not looking at the keyboard' but that you place both hands on the keyboard and each fingers type a set of fixed keys. So, all your fingers are getting the work out. I don't look at the keyboard when I typed but I don't touch type - I am basically just using a few of my fingers - pointer, middle, thumb and ring finger - my pinky are useless.. and I am basically just poking at the keyboard without looking and at very high speed. Bad bad way to type so an ergo board is useless for me.
No..it is typing (any way you can) without looking the board..it has nothing to do with "proper" form...
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I think touch typing is not just 'not looking at the keyboard' but that you place both hands on the keyboard and each fingers type a set of fixed keys. So, all your fingers are getting the work out. I don't look at the keyboard when I typed but I don't touch type - I am basically just using a few of my fingers - pointer, middle, thumb and ring finger - my pinky are useless.. and I am basically just poking at the keyboard without looking and at very high speed. Bad bad way to type so an ergo board is useless for me.
No..it is typing (any way you can) without looking the board..it has nothing to do with "proper" form...
I think you are defining touch typing - sure it may just mean not looking at the board.
But ergonomics IS about typing form. It wouldn't do if I'm just poking my fingers.
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I think touch typing is not just 'not looking at the keyboard' but that you place both hands on the keyboard and each fingers type a set of fixed keys. So, all your fingers are getting the work out. I don't look at the keyboard when I typed but I don't touch type - I am basically just using a few of my fingers - pointer, middle, thumb and ring finger - my pinky are useless.. and I am basically just poking at the keyboard without looking and at very high speed. Bad bad way to type so an ergo board is useless for me.
No..it is typing (any way you can) without looking the board..it has nothing to do with "proper" form...
I think you are defining touch typing - sure it may just mean not looking at the board.
But ergonomics IS about typing form. It wouldn't do if I'm just poking my fingers.
No doubt...There is no point to a split ergo type keyboard if you're not going to touch type. But touch typing has nothing to do with proper form..it has to do with not looking at the keyboard. Typing purely by "touch".
I'm not sure where the whole bottoming out thing came from...There was even a thread about it awhile back but pretty amazing at how many people interpreted touching typing as not bottoming...
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I think touch typing is not just 'not looking at the keyboard' but that you place both hands on the keyboard and each fingers type a set of fixed keys. So, all your fingers are getting the work out. I don't look at the keyboard when I typed but I don't touch type - I am basically just using a few of my fingers - pointer, middle, thumb and ring finger - my pinky are useless.. and I am basically just poking at the keyboard without looking and at very high speed. Bad bad way to type so an ergo board is useless for me.
No..it is typing (any way you can) without looking the board..it has nothing to do with "proper" form...
I think you are defining touch typing - sure it may just mean not looking at the board.
But ergonomics IS about typing form. It wouldn't do if I'm just poking my fingers.
No doubt...There is no point to a split ergo type keyboard if you're not going to touch type. But touch typing has nothing to do with proper form..it has to do with not looking at the keyboard. Typing purely by "touch".
I'm not sure where the whole bottoming out thing came from...There was even a thread about it awhile back but pretty amazing at how many people interpreted touching typing as not bottoming...
I believe that Polymer is correct. Typing by touch is simply being able to do so purely by physical feeling without visual input. Many people have improper technique, but I could still type with five fingers and be touch typing, albeit not efficiently.
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Well to be honest I assumed touch typing was typing without bottoming out simply because 'touch typing' as how it's actually defined is taken for granted by me. I learned to type in school, I use all my fingers for specific keys and never look down as I type. I only assumed that everybody did it.
As for the keyboard I'm getting, I really still don't know, I'm confused, there's a lot to look at in terms of keyboards. I'm still very interested in Filco Ninja and now WASDKeyboards, as for ergonomics I think ergodox looks pretty solid. Hmmmm
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I think it is quite hard to touch type and to not also bottom out when touch typing. There are notable keyboards such as Topre based keyboards makes it hard for one type and actuate without having to press it so that it would feel like as if one has definitely sent the key press and that the machine has recognised the input. From the actuation point onwards to when one hits the bottom of Topre board it is very soft and therefore very quick to hit the bottom. Even for my APC membrane board which seems to actuate somewhere close to around halfway or top but because it feels stiff (on certain keys) I have to press harder so that it feels like as if the keys have been properly actuated but at the same time I bottom out.
Touch typing, as broadly defined is when one types without looking at the keys, not to type and to not bottom out. There are certain keyboard switches which may seem to make it easy for one to actuate a key press and to not bottom out but there are others which makes typing without bottoming out very hard (almost to the point of literally impossible). Therefore to touch type and to not bottom out would probably make one formidable at that keyboard and/or that particular switch. When it comes to switching keyboards and/or switches, well a different learning curve ensues.
Frankly speaking, the touch typing term as wikipedia states I would agree. Even the age old typing tutor softwares, they all seem to enforce the same set of theme, to use all 10 fingers (or eight fingers and two thumbs) and to type efficiently without 'hunt and peck' sort of style. I personally have not found a single touch typing tutor that would also gauge if one would bottom out the keys or not when it comes to touch typing as that would be very pedantic in my sense. Granted to touch type and to not bottom out is far better if one wants to achieve even more faster speeds but really, the whole premise of touch typing was to really use as much fingers as possible without looking at the keyboard.
Switching between various keyboards I have here, it is virtually impossible for me to master touch typing and typing without bottoming out on every keyboard and their specific key switch. However what is true is that at least I have maintained typing without looking at the keys all that much. I mean apart from the fact that my keyboards all have various layouts (ANSI, JIS, big-ass enter and soon ISO) so it is not easy for me to memorise all the keys and their specific layouts as well as to type on all of them without bottoming out.
ErgoDox would be killing two birds with one stone. I have no qualms with you choosing ErgoDox or virtually any ergonomic mechanical keyboard for that matter however I must stress that if it is your first time dealing with mechanical keyboard, it is ideal to not try and kill as many birds with one stone. As I said before, if you bought ergonomic mechanical keyboard for instance but you find the layout a bit cumbersome to make use of, you may not only ruin your own perception of what ergonomic keyboard is capable of but also to ruin your experience with mechanical keyboards as a result of finding ergonomic keyboards too daunting.
There are many styles as to what one can take as being ergonomical keyboard. You have ErgoDox, you have DataHand, you have BAT keyboard, you have Maltron keyboard, heck you even have AlphaGrip (which doesn't even look like your average keyboard). No not all of those keyboards are necessarily mechanical, most of them are chorded and are also ergonomic. They can greatly vary your experience with typing in ergonomic sort of sense but you may also find as a result of not only because of using them you may not be able to live easily without them.
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Matias just announced a Ergonomic keyboard so you have one commercially available from a vendor.
Now you get best of both worlds:
http://www.matias.ca/ergopro
It's only semi-ergonomic really. It helps with pronation and horizontal wrist angles, but not finger movement angles, unbalanced finger usage, and twisting due to the stagger. Also keeps the thumbs too high. A step in the right direction, though, and worth the OP's consideration.
I agree that different boards suit different people, but some aspects are quantifiably more or less ergonomic in general. ErgoDox's flat thumb clusters make it hard to reach the far thumb keys and an angled thumb cluster is more natural and ergonomic.
If I were already able to properly touch-type on a normal qwerty board, the Matias would be what I'd get, but I went for something further along the ergonomic path as my first touch-typing board since I know it will be better for the long-term health of my fingers, wrists and arms. For the record I have been non touch typing for 30 years or so.
I learned to touch type on my Kinesis Advantage last year. It forces you to learn because you can't hunt and peck keys with this layout. Afterwards it was easy to learn on a regular keyboard. I have switched out the key caps to blanks on my Kinesis and my ergodox is also blank.
I wish I would have learned sooner, it would have saved me from neck pain when I had to do programming projects that involved over a thousand lines of code. Imagine spending hours looking up and down as you type.
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No..it is typing (any way you can) without looking the board..it has nothing to do with "proper" form...
I don't think it's quite so clear cut as that. Google defines touch typing like so:
touch-type verb
gerund or present participle: touch-typing
1. type using all one's fingers and without looking at the keys.
From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_typing):
Touch typing typically involves placing the eight fingers in a horizontal row along the middle of the keyboard (the home row) and having them reach for other keys. Both two-handed touch typing and one-handed touch typing are possible.
From The Free Dictionary (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/touch+typing):
Noun 1. touch typing - typewriting in which the fingers are trained to hit particular keystouch typing - typewriting in which the fingers are trained to hit particular keys; typist can read and type at the same time
From Merriam Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/touch+typing?show=0&t=1389332422):
touch–type intransitive verb \ˈtəch-ˌtīp\
: to type without looking at the keyboard
So it seems that there's some general disagreement as to whether it is the act of not looking at the keys that defines touch typing, or that combined with "proper" home-row placement and usage of the correct fingers.
Personally, I've always understood "Touch Typing" to mean the latter (where which finger you use to hit a specific key is a part of it), as that's what I learned in school and most references when I was learning tended to use this form.
However, with the exponential increase in computer/keyboard usage since then (my first typing class was the early 90s), I can see why the more relaxed definition of simply "typing without looking at the keyboard" has become prominent. I would venture that the majority of people learning to type these days do so on their own without any formal instruction, and develop their own techniques that can be as unique as they are.
IMO learning a "proper" technique (meaning, use all four fingers of each hand) is highly beneficial. Whenever I see somebody typing in a non-standard way it makes me cringe a little to see so much excess motion and I think that eventually it will cause severe RSI over the years. I haven't experienced any kind of RSI and I've been typing on keyboards for over 20 years now (16 of those years have been professionally, where typing is the majority of what I do throughout a full work day). I attribute that to the fact that I learned the home-row technique of touch typing which is very relaxed and allows for a very minimal amount of required movement to hit any given key.</soapbox>
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No..it is typing (any way you can) without looking the board..it has nothing to do with "proper" form...
I don't think it's quite so clear cut as that. Google defines touch typing like so:
touch-type verb
gerund or present participle: touch-typing
1. type using all one's fingers and without looking at the keys.
From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_typing):
Touch typing typically involves placing the eight fingers in a horizontal row along the middle of the keyboard (the home row) and having them reach for other keys. Both two-handed touch typing and one-handed touch typing are possible.
From The Free Dictionary (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/touch+typing):
Noun 1. touch typing - typewriting in which the fingers are trained to hit particular keystouch typing - typewriting in which the fingers are trained to hit particular keys; typist can read and type at the same time
From Merriam Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/touch+typing?show=0&t=1389332422):
touch–type intransitive verb \ˈtəch-ˌtīp\
: to type without looking at the keyboard
So it seems that there's some general disagreement as to whether it is the act of not looking at the keys that defines touch typing, or that combined with "proper" home-row placement and usage of the correct fingers.
Personally, I've always understood "Touch Typing" to mean the latter (where which finger you use to hit a specific key is a part of it), as that's what I learned in school and most references when I was learning tended to use this form.
However, with the exponential increase in computer/keyboard usage since then (my first typing class was the early 90s), I can see why the more relaxed definition of simply "typing without looking at the keyboard" has become prominent. I would venture that the majority of people learning to type these days do so on their own without any formal instruction, and develop their own techniques that can be as unique as they are.
IMO learning a "proper" technique (meaning, use all four fingers of each hand) is highly beneficial. Whenever I see somebody typing in a non-standard way it makes me cringe a little to see so much excess motion and I think that eventually it will cause severe RSI over the years. I haven't experienced any kind of RSI and I've been typing on keyboards for over 20 years now (16 of those years have been professionally, where typing is the majority of what I do throughout a full work day). I attribute that to the fact that I learned the home-row technique of touch typing which is very relaxed and allows for a very minimal amount of required movement to hit any given key.</soapbox>
There is no established Proper technique....
for example.... the HOME ROW... asdfjkl: is not where you rest your fingers when completely relaxed.
the hand naturally rests on awefjio:
There is no reason to bring the two fingers one row down..
There is also no reason to return one's fingers to the home row upon completion of a keystroke in any other rows.
and the typical q and p are typed with pinky... THIS is wrong.. because it is faster to use the ring finger thus avoiding a wrist lift for the pinky to reach those keys...
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I don't think it's quite so clear cut as that. Google defines touch typing like so
If you look at what "touch" typing means, it means typing by TOUCH...without looking. The whole point is so you can be reading and typing something out at the same time. It doesn't make sense to include form in something that specifically means to not look at the keyboard..
The reason people have integrated "proper form" into their definition is because some people assume "proper form" is the only way you can type without looking at the keyboard. "Proper form" is just how they teach people to type..and in general it is probably perfectly fine...but for some it won't be as efficient as doing it their own way...
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Alright guys you can chill, you're all acting like you're on the Oxford Dictionary committee, arguing over the most proper definition. Let's just agree that it's typing without looking, but that part of typing without looking is having proper form (assigning a finger to each key, not pecking around with two index fingers).
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Alright guys you can chill, you're all acting like you're on the Oxford Dictionary committee, arguing over the most proper definition. Let's just agree that it's typing without looking, but that part of typing without looking is having proper form (assigning a finger to each key, not pecking around with two index fingers).
How about two thumbs?
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Guys, I'm really considering the Matias ergopro, what do you guys think of it? Seems like the best of both worlds.
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[...] you're all acting like you're on the Oxford Dictionary committee, arguing over the most proper definition.
Well spotted! This is Geekhack, after all :))
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Guys, I'm really considering the Matias ergopro, what do you guys think of it? Seems like the best of both worlds.
I think it's a good choice.
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Why do you think it's a good choice?
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I'm confused.. what are you guys arguing about?
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They are arguing whether pecking at the keyboards with a few fingers without looking is considered touch typing and thus ergo keyboard is suitable for these people too. I disagree coz I'm a finger pecker and my wrist will not benefit from the ergo keyboard at all.
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Edit double post stupid Tapatalk.
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They are arguing whether pecking at the keyboards with a few fingers without looking is considered touch typing and thus ergo keyboard is suitable for these people too. I disagree coz I'm a finger pecker and my wrist will not benefit from the ergo keyboard at all.
Ergos are not suitable for people that peck around..most people not using reasonably proper form will find ergonomic keyboards to be a pain...but it really depends..I've send 3 finger touch typers do fine on them...but I'm not sure the benefits are quite there...
Too many people are mixing up things that are mutually exclusive..
Being a touch typer with 2 fingers probably means ergonomic keyboards are not suitable. Thus all touch typers won't find ergonomic keyboards suitable.
Being a touch typer with "proper form" probably means ergonomic keyboards will be suitable.
Touch typing is typing without looking at the keyboard..it has nothing to do, and it never has had anything to do, with proper form...
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Why do you think it's a good choice?
Because you can already "type without looking" and the Matias has the correct keys on each half for someone that can (the number 6 is often on the wrong half). It will be familiar enough for each hand that you shouldn't struggle to "learn" to type on it.
It has mechanical keys (Alps - style switches), is split so you can adjust each half for shoulder width and splay angle and the pieces can be tented to help with pronation. It ticks some of the most important boxes in terms of ergonomics while still being familiar enough to use straight away.
And I love the edit and arrow key arrangement :) very neat.
Any "more" ergonomic board will have a different physical key layout or character placement. If you are willing to go that far towards the "best" ergonomics, it's best to go all the way to a Maltron, ErgoDox or similar board with both physical and character layout improvement, but for most it's too much of a change to justify.
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Guys, I'm really considering the Matias ergopro, what do you guys think of it? Seems like the best of both worlds.
Matias uses Alps which may leave you with very few keycaps available for you to alternate between various key caps later on to your choice. The keyboard style seems to be nice and it is also reasonably priced. The only other thing that may come close is the ErgoDox but ErgoDox uses Cherry MX switches which can give one more switches to mix and match to your taste. With Matias Ergopro you only got one normal one and one silenced one.
There are two other keyboards which maybe on the same level of playing field with Ergopro but are priced more. You have μTron and IBM/Lexmark M15. Both are ergonomic mechanical keyboards but both also feature very different key switches. μTron with Topre and IBM/Lexmark M15 with Buckling spring.
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Guys, I'm really considering the Matias ergopro, what do you guys think of it? Seems like the best of both worlds.
Matias uses Alps which may leave you with very few keycaps available for you to alternate between various key caps later on to your choice. The keyboard style seems to be nice and it is also reasonably priced. The only other thing that may come close is the ErgoDox but ErgoDox uses Cherry MX switches which can give one more switches to mix and match to your taste. With Matias Ergopro you only got one normal one and one silenced one.
There are two other keyboards which maybe on the same level of playing field with Ergopro but are priced more. You have μTron and IBM/Lexmark M15. Both are ergonomic mechanical keyboards but both also feature very different key switches. μTron with Topre and IBM/Lexmark M15 with Buckling spring.
Microtron is different layout :p
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Well said Oobly. This design will give you most of the ergonomic improvements you would want without a long retraining curve. While I prefer the additional improvements on my ErgoDox such as vertical columns, programability and thumb clusters, making the leap to such a different design has its compromises.
While some have no trouble switching from one layout to another, I struggle with it. I now find using a conventional keyboard to be a clumsy and disorienting experience. Of course some of the reason for that is because I found traditional keyboards uncomfortable and ill fitted before. That is why I wanted an ergo board to begin with.
Don't misunderstand. I'm not trying to dissuade you from considering the ErgoDox or other more ergonomic boards but given your past comments, I think the Matias board may be a better fit. It addresses two of the major ergo issues; wrist pronation and ulnar deviation, and they are the source of most hand problems.
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There is no established Proper technique....
for example.... the HOME ROW... asdfjkl: is not where you rest your fingers when completely relaxed.
It is for me. Not all hands are the same.
the hand naturally rests on awefjio:
Mine don't. We've talked about this before, I even posted a photo showing how my hand naturally rests.
and the typical q and p are typed with pinky... THIS is wrong.. because it is faster to use the ring finger thus avoiding a wrist lift for the pinky to reach those keys...
*shrug* That's not the way my hands work. I never lift my wrist when typing p or q.
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The reason people have integrated "proper form" into their definition is because some people assume "proper form" is the only way you can type without looking at the keyboard.
Not at all. Two decades ago "Touch Typing" meant using the "proper form", nowadays it means something different. Language changes over time to suit how people actually communicate. I don't know if you actually read to the end of my post, but I mentioned several factors that have contributed to that.
"Proper form" is just how they teach people to type..and in general it is probably perfectly fine...but for some it won't be as efficient as doing it their own way...
I agree. Like I said above, not everybody's hands are the same.
Alright guys you can chill, you're all acting like you're on the Oxford Dictionary committee, arguing over the most proper definition. Let's just agree that it's typing without looking, but that part of typing without looking is having proper form (assigning a finger to each key, not pecking around with two index fingers).
I wouldn't say I'm "arguing". I feel like this is a friendly discussion, on a discussion forum. It's a topic I have something to say about, so I'm saying it. I encourage people to disagree and present their opinion as well. That's what this place is for. I just don't like presenting my opinion without supporting information (hence all the definitions).
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The reason people have integrated "proper form" into their definition is because some people assume "proper form" is the only way you can type without looking at the keyboard.
Not at all. Two decades ago "Touch Typing" meant using the "proper form", nowadays it means something different. Language changes over time to suit how people actually communicate. I don't know if you actually read to the end of my post, but I mentioned several factors that have contributed to that.
"Proper form" is just how they teach people to type..and in general it is probably perfectly fine...but for some it won't be as efficient as doing it their own way...
I agree. Like I said above, not everybody's hands are the same.
Alright guys you can chill, you're all acting like you're on the Oxford Dictionary committee, arguing over the most proper definition. Let's just agree that it's typing without looking, but that part of typing without looking is having proper form (assigning a finger to each key, not pecking around with two index fingers).
I wouldn't say I'm "arguing". I feel like this is a friendly discussion, on a discussion forum. It's a topic I have something to say about, so I'm saying it. I encourage people to disagree and present their opinion as well. That's what this place is for. I just don't like presenting my opinion without supporting information (hence all the definitions).
The only 'supporting information' of your earlier argument is your own hand position. I guarantee you that using AWEF JIOP is much better than homerow because QWERTY is a crap layout and more keys are used on the top than the homerow. Really it would be best to desist from any more posting, because this has gone very far from a 'friendly discussion'. If you want to argue about layout or hand position, this thread is not the one to do it on.
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Why do you think it's a good choice?
Because you can already "type without looking" and the Matias has the correct keys on each half for someone that can (the number 6 is often on the wrong half). It will be familiar enough for each hand that you shouldn't struggle to "learn" to type on it.
It has mechanical keys (Alps - style switches), is split so you can adjust each half for shoulder width and splay angle and the pieces can be tented to help with pronation. It ticks some of the most important boxes in terms of ergonomics while still being familiar enough to use straight away.
And I love the edit and arrow key arrangement :) very neat.
Any "more" ergonomic board will have a different physical key layout or character placement. If you are willing to go that far towards the "best" ergonomics, it's best to go all the way to a Maltron, ErgoDox or similar board with both physical and character layout improvement, but for most it's too much of a change to justify.
Thank you for your reply man, I can see you've been reading all I have to say and compiling an understanding of what would be best suited for me, that's sweet of you. As for the 6 key, it's not really all that big of a deal, I don't really type numbers from home row much, it's not something I've ever had to learn to do efficiently, I usually just peck at the numbers because they're so far up and awkward to hit from home row.
As for the best ergonomics, I don't know, I think the matias will hold me off and make my typing experience a lot more comfortable for the time being, I currently do a lot of typing on a Logitech G510 and I think it might be giving me karpal tunnel or something LOL, so a change would certainly be nice.
Guys, I'm really considering the Matias ergopro, what do you guys think of it? Seems like the best of both worlds.
Matias uses Alps which may leave you with very few keycaps available for you to alternate between various key caps later on to your choice. The keyboard style seems to be nice and it is also reasonably priced. The only other thing that may come close is the ErgoDox but ErgoDox uses Cherry MX switches which can give one more switches to mix and match to your taste. With Matias Ergopro you only got one normal one and one silenced one.
There are two other keyboards which maybe on the same level of playing field with Ergopro but are priced more. You have μTron and IBM/Lexmark M15. Both are ergonomic mechanical keyboards but both also feature very different key switches. μTron with Topre and IBM/Lexmark M15 with Buckling spring.
Hmmm, interesting piece of information about the keycaps, I'm not sure whether or not I'm all too worried about being able to replace the keycaps though, I don't really care much whether my keyboard looks cool or not, I just want it to be comfortable and functional :p. Also thank you for your replies throughout this thread, they've been very large and informative and you deserve credit for that reason, on-topic and helpful.
As for the keyboard I'm going to get it'll be Matias most likely, I've been looking a lot into it and it seems like a good price, good switches which aren't unreasonably loud but still have that distinctive mechanical sound, and most importantly it's ergonomic, I was looking into getting a Filco at the beginning, but I no longer thing that a traditional keyboard layout is ideal for me.
Although a mechanical alone would probably be a huge improvement over my G510 (because these keys are so bloody ****ing stiff even after a year of use), but changing to a mechanical and an ergonomic will probably improve the health and vitality of my writs, and allow me to work longer and more comfortably.
One more question I must ask though, will the switches on the Matias suffice for gaming??
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As for the 6 key position: it's a storm in a tea cup. It's a small change to adapt to if it ends up on the 'wrong' side on a keyboard that has other ergonomic benefits.
Your mileage may vary, of course...
All I'm trying to say that if a board ticks all your boxes except the 6, then I'd say go for it.
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The only 'supporting information' of your earlier argument is your own hand position. I guarantee you that using AWEF JIOP is much better than homerow because QWERTY is a crap layout and more keys are used on the top than the homerow. Really it would be best to desist from any more posting, because this has gone very far from a 'friendly discussion'. If you want to argue about layout or hand position, this thread is not the one to do it on.
Hey man, chill. I wasn't trying to cause any problems. I have tried AWEF quite a few times, and to me it doesn't feel natural at all. Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way.
Like I said, I'm not trying to "argue". I'm not trying to change anybody's opinions or beliefs, just presenting how I see things.
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The reason people have integrated "proper form" into their definition is because some people assume "proper form" is the only way you can type without looking at the keyboard.
Not at all. Two decades ago "Touch Typing" meant using the "proper form", nowadays it means something different. Language changes over time to suit how people actually communicate. I don't know if you actually read to the end of my post, but I mentioned several factors that have contributed to that.
It didn't mean that two decades ago...It didn't when I learned to type more than two decades ago...Touch Typing has always meant typing by touch..people have just always assumed you would/could only do that with proper form...but even the name itself doesn't even suggest proper form..it just means typing by touch...
That is like saying using your left thumb rather than your right thumb for the space bar wouldn't have been touch typing because that wasn't proper form...Or if you used the wrong finger for one of the keys that isn't touch typing....
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It didn't mean that two decades ago...It didn't when I learned to type more than two decades ago...Touch Typing has always meant typing by touch..people have just always assumed you would/could only do that with proper form...but even the name itself doesn't even suggest proper form..it just means typing by touch...
That is like saying using your left thumb rather than your right thumb for the space bar wouldn't have been touch typing because that wasn't proper form...Or if you used the wrong finger for one of the keys that isn't touch typing....
I guess I should have qualified it with "where I grew up and learned how to type" because my experience was different then yours. What should we call the "standard" way of typing then, if "touch typing" clearly means something different to so many people here?
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It didn't mean that two decades ago...It didn't when I learned to type more than two decades ago...Touch Typing has always meant typing by touch..people have just always assumed you would/could only do that with proper form...but even the name itself doesn't even suggest proper form..it just means typing by touch...
That is like saying using your left thumb rather than your right thumb for the space bar wouldn't have been touch typing because that wasn't proper form...Or if you used the wrong finger for one of the keys that isn't touch typing....
I guess I should have qualified it with "where I grew up and learned how to type" because my experience was different then yours. What should we call the "standard" way of typing then, if "touch typing" clearly means something different to so many people here?
Well we've already defined it here..
Proper Form is different than Touch Typing. If you use proper form but look at the keyboard, you're not Touch Typing..
TOUCH TYPING would imply you're typing by touch..you're not looking at the keyboard to type.
Just break it down yourself.
Using your definition, is it touch typing if you use your left thumb for the space bar (since that isn't proper form)? If you use your ring finger for hitting 1 instead of pinky finger, which isn't proper form, is it still considered touch typing? Of course I'm assuming you're not looking at the keyboard and everything else is "right". If you look at it that way, the definition of touch typing being not looking at the keyboard AND using "proper form" doesn't make sense.
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Guys, I'm really considering the Matias ergopro, what do you guys think of it? Seems like the best of both worlds.
Matias uses Alps which may leave you with very few keycaps available for you to alternate between various key caps later on to your choice. The keyboard style seems to be nice and it is also reasonably priced. The only other thing that may come close is the ErgoDox but ErgoDox uses Cherry MX switches which can give one more switches to mix and match to your taste. With Matias Ergopro you only got one normal one and one silenced one.
There are two other keyboards which maybe on the same level of playing field with Ergopro but are priced more. You have μTron and IBM/Lexmark M15. Both are ergonomic mechanical keyboards but both also feature very different key switches. μTron with Topre and IBM/Lexmark M15 with Buckling spring.
Microtron is different layout :p
It still is ergonomic, no? ;D
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Guys, I'm really considering the Matias ergopro, what do you guys think of it? Seems like the best of both worlds.
Matias uses Alps which may leave you with very few keycaps available for you to alternate between various key caps later on to your choice. The keyboard style seems to be nice and it is also reasonably priced. The only other thing that may come close is the ErgoDox but ErgoDox uses Cherry MX switches which can give one more switches to mix and match to your taste. With Matias Ergopro you only got one normal one and one silenced one.
There are two other keyboards which maybe on the same level of playing field with Ergopro but are priced more. You have μTron and IBM/Lexmark M15. Both are ergonomic mechanical keyboards but both also feature very different key switches. μTron with Topre and IBM/Lexmark M15 with Buckling spring.
Microtron is different layout :p
It still is ergonomic, no? ;D
μTron is ergonomic than IBM M15/ErgoPro for layout ! :D
though columnar or bowl matron/advantange,maybe more better :)
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Guys, I'm really considering the Matias ergopro, what do you guys think of it? Seems like the best of both worlds.
Matias uses Alps which may leave you with very few keycaps available for you to alternate between various key caps later on to your choice. The keyboard style seems to be nice and it is also reasonably priced. The only other thing that may come close is the ErgoDox but ErgoDox uses Cherry MX switches which can give one more switches to mix and match to your taste. With Matias Ergopro you only got one normal one and one silenced one.
There are two other keyboards which maybe on the same level of playing field with Ergopro but are priced more. You have μTron and IBM/Lexmark M15. Both are ergonomic mechanical keyboards but both also feature very different key switches. μTron with Topre and IBM/Lexmark M15 with Buckling spring.
Hmmm, interesting piece of information about the keycaps, I'm not sure whether or not I'm all too worried about being able to replace the keycaps though, I don't really care much whether my keyboard looks cool or not, I just want it to be comfortable and functional :p . Also thank you for your replies throughout this thread, they've been very large and informative and you deserve credit for that reason, on-topic and helpful.
As for the keyboard I'm going to get it'll be Matias most likely, I've been looking a lot into it and it seems like a good price, good switches which aren't unreasonably loud but still have that distinctive mechanical sound, and most importantly it's ergonomic, I was looking into getting a Filco at the beginning, but I no longer thing that a traditional keyboard layout is ideal for me.
Although a mechanical alone would probably be a huge improvement over my G510 (because these keys are so bloody ****ing stiff even after a year of use), but changing to a mechanical and an ergonomic will probably improve the health and vitality of my writs, and allow me to work longer and more comfortably.
One more question I must ask though, will the switches on the Matias suffice for gaming??
Thanks ;D , I just wanted to point out that in case in the future if you want to swap caps you maybe restricted to only Matias/Alps based. Until there will be a cross compatible variant. That is pretty much you are stuck with.
Filco is not too bad but yeah they are a bit bland. All rectangular shaped much like run of the mill standard keyboards. Nothing wrong with standard but *shrug* to each their own really.
Hehe, you can probably get away with lubing the G510 I guess as well. Though it really only extends the life of the keyboard for a short time. However that is true, when ergonomic mechanical keyboards are used properly and all, they should in general help one prevent getting the likes of RSI/CTS, etc. However there are many other factors one must consider about such as correct typing posture and all. Not saying that you do not follow correct typing postures but just suggesting there are various ways which when all efficiently applied would benefit one a lot in general.
I personally have no experience with Matias for gaming. They may I guess considering I have felt with similar Alps like (more like Alps clone). Possibly over time the springs may get a little more loose for instance and that may give ways to being soft. However I am only speaking on the theoretical side. I do not have personal experience like I said before.
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No man, I really can't lube up this G510, I mean nothing is wrong with it, it's just has stiff keys and it's HUGE, like it's way too big, it's really unnecessary lmfao.
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Do you ever need to use one hand on keyboard while the other hand is taken up by a mouse heavy application such as CAD? or do you do a lot of data entry in things like spreadsheets where you're often better off keeping one hand on mouse to switch cells or sheets quickly? In that kind of case I think a standard 105 key layout (104 for ISO) is superior to the ergonomic boards.
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You've a point, but superior in what way - faster data entry and gnawing at your tendons at the same time?
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Why would it be gnawing at your tendons more than on an "ergo" board? That kind of usage is very different to typing, much less repetition and more intermittent. Not everyone suffers problems from normal layout boards, anyway, most don't or more would use ergo boards. Nice to know ergos are there if you need them, but for many its more logical, more economical, and no less healthy to stick to a normal layout. Correcting posture and technique is cheaper and probably more effective than trying to buy a silver bullet cure-all ergo board as a first option.
As Filcos and ping are mentioned I'll add that the pinging in my experience seems to be sensationalized for what it is. If you're over-sensitive to that kind of thing you might be turned off the board if it happens to have a particularly bad ping. I have 2 Filco MJ2s, a 105key and an 88key. Neither have significant ping, nor do any other Filcos I've had my hands on. Some say the keycaps go shiny too fast, mine haven't yet, but cherry keycaps are easy enough to get hold of if they do.
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Do you ever need to use one hand on keyboard while the other hand is taken up by a mouse heavy application such as CAD? or do you do a lot of data entry in things like spreadsheets where you're often better off keeping one hand on mouse to switch cells or sheets quickly? In that kind of case I think a standard 105 key layout (104 for ISO) is superior to the ergonomic boards.
It depends on what data you need to enter with your left hand. For the kind of CAD work I do, it's mostly numbers, so I use either a dedicated numpad or map the numbers to the left part of my ergo board. My left hand usually rests on a SpaceNavigator, though. I see no reason whatsoever to use a standard, non-ergo board for any task I have come across so far (as long as the ergo board in question is programmable).
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To be honest all Mechanical Keyboards could be classified as ergonomic. Since the switches can provide the fingers ease when typing.
* I used this fact at my work place to get a mechanical keyboard (reds) to use.
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To be honest all Mechanical Keyboards could be classified as ergonomic. Since the switches can provide the fingers ease when typing.
* I used this fact at my work place to get a mechanical keyboard (reds) to use.
Hmmm, I was looking forward to getting down to this point in this thread, and I'm glad you point it out. My current keyboard is really only bad because the keys are so stiff and it hurts my fingers/wrists. Brown or Red Cherry switches would probably take a lot of stress off of my fingers.
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An ergodox might suit you more, but honestly, until you try one for yourself you can never know if you'll truly like something or not.