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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: yasuo on Sat, 11 January 2014, 05:30:55
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Hey GHers
Which you choose Dedicated Arrow keys or
Combination+Arrow Keys though ergonomic position (Thumb+Arrow keys)
EX:SpaceFN+Arrow ala Spicebar,FN+WASD,FN+IJKL or diffilicut like hhkb pinky+arrow keys less uses
Your answer will be helpful
Thanks
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Definitely Dedicated Arrow Keys
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I use function key + home row keys as navigation keys, the advantage is that I don't need to move my hand away to access the arrow keys.
Actually, I also mapped the same keys as mouse keys in another layer, so that I don't need to move my hand away for mouse/trackball/touchpad.
This is achieved with ErgoDox + tmk firmware.
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I use function key + home row keys as navigation keys, the advantage is that I don't need to move my hand away to access the arrow keys.
Actually, I also mapped the same keys as mouse keys in another layer, so that I don't need to move my hand away for mouse/trackball/touchpad.
This is achieved with ErgoDox + tmk firmware.
good idea,i've tried pretty nice :D i think maybe weird not usually
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I use function key + home row keys as navigation keys, the advantage is that I don't need to move my hand away to access the arrow keys.
Actually, I also mapped the same keys as mouse keys in another layer, so that I don't need to move my hand away for mouse/trackball/touchpad.
This is achieved with ErgoDox + tmk firmware.
QFT, same here.
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I like to have dedicated arrow keys, but I could easily get used to a FN+ESDF or IJKL. I discovered after I built my ergonomic board that I use them less than I thought.
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I prefer dedicated arrows as well.
FN+something reasonable would be fine, as long as FN was in a good spot.
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Fn+Xs work well, as far as you do not need to access a chorded function like in excel for example. Adding shift or control to the mix can be a little bit hard. That is why I prefer dedicated arrows. Of course, I do not have an ergonomic board, that has totally different idiosyncrasy, than standard hardware.
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I don't like dedicated arrow keys. Anything close to home row plus easily accessible Fn key for me, please.
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Dedicated arrow keys, even though 60% layout looks so much nicer.
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How 60% users deal with functions that require the arrows plus shift, alt, or control? For example to mark an area in Excel, that requires control+shift+arrow?
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I have HHKB, and it works fine with Fn+arrows on my Mac as Ctrl keys do most other navigation.
On Windows I cannot get by without arrow keys.
Overall I would say I prefer dedicated arrow keys.
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How 60% users deal with functions that require the arrows plus shift, alt, or control? For example to mark an area in Excel, that requires control+shift+arrow?
left hand for Ctrl+Shift, right thumb for Fn + HJKL/JKIL for arrows
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I prefer dedicated arrow keys. While having them as a combination key works fine, I use them so much that I feel they deserve their own spot on the keyboard. This is my main problem with some (not all) of the 60% keyboards.
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The debate is due to aesthetics mainly, after all, the arrows were added to a computer board in the search of usability, now we, that like mechanical boards, want to eliminate them in the search of symmetry. I did try to get accustomed to not have them, and after a year I decided to get a board with arrows again, and the feeling was like getting fresh air, after being confined to a very narrow and small space.
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Not true, at least not for everyone. I use 60% layout on TKL board (QFR + Frosty Flake and a custom firmware). To me it has nothing to do with aesthetics and is all about efficiency. If I was after aesthetics I would have gotten myself a poker.
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Fn + letters for navigation is much better than dedicated arrow keys, assuming a keyboard with lots of easily accessible thumb keys. Large arm/wrist movements are slow, imprecise, and disruptive.
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Fn + letters for navigation is much better than dedicated arrow keys, assuming a keyboard with lots of easily accessible thumb keys. Large arm/wrist movements are slow, imprecise, and disruptive.
Maybe for navigation only, but not much if you need combinations for functions like marking a block of text up to a corner of a spreadsheet with 1000+ rows like when editing large data sets. Or when copying formulas over a a column and similar activities.
I've used a 60% for a year and the combination of keys with arrows is very complicated and that lack of dedicated arrows by no means makes the tasks easier. I agree that basic navigation may be more "efficient" because you already have your fingers in the home row, but any other use for arrows gets a little more complicated.
I would like to program some sort of fn+wasd and fn+ijkl as secondary arrow keys, but I am not sure what combination that could be. i am gonna try a script using AHK. I think that could be the best of both, dedicated arrows for the combination functions and secondary arrow keys for the basic navigation. I may try also space fn for that also.
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Fn + letters for navigation is much better than dedicated arrow keys, assuming a keyboard with lots of easily accessible thumb keys. Large arm/wrist movements are slow, imprecise, and disruptive.
Maybe for navigation only, but not much if you need combinations for functions like marking a block of text up to a corner of a spreadsheet with 1000+ rows like when editing large data sets. Or when copying formulas over a a column and similar activities.
On my ergodox, I mapped the capslock key to a function key for toggling jkl; into navigation keys, I also put the modifier keys in the thumb cluster.
In this way, marking text block can be easily achieved with my left hand holding fn and shift, and my right hand navigating the cursor.
However I am not sure whether a 60% keyboard can do this.
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An ergonomic board is totally different of a standard rectangular board. The main difference are the thumb + something combinations that just can't be implemented in a regular board.
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Never tried fn+arrow keys but I use dedicated all the time for coding. I'd have a hard time adjusting to using fn+arrows
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Not true, at least not for everyone. I use 60% layout on TKL board (QFR + Frosty Flake and a custom firmware). To me it has nothing to do with aesthetics and is all about efficiency. If I was after aesthetics I would have gotten myself a poker.
A custom firmware to turn a TKL into a 60%? It seems like a waste of keys, don't you think? It would not be better to just get and use a 60%?
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Fn + letters for navigation is much better than dedicated arrow keys, assuming a keyboard with lots of easily accessible thumb keys. Large arm/wrist movements are slow, imprecise, and disruptive.
Maybe for navigation only, but not much if you need combinations for functions like marking a block of text up to a corner of a spreadsheet with 1000+ rows like when editing large data sets. Or when copying formulas over a a column and similar activities.
I've used a 60% for a year and the combination of keys with arrows is very complicated and that lack of dedicated arrows by no means makes the tasks easier. I agree that basic navigation may be more "efficient" because you already have your fingers in the home row, but any other use for arrows gets a little more complicated.
Well, I should clarify. I’ve been using an ergodox for the last few weeks, and I’m currently prototyping a new more ergonomic key layout for planned new keyboards. In both cases, the keyboard is fully programmable with arbitrary firmware. Some left thumb key + home row on the right hand currently does movement. That left thumb key + right forefinger home row key + left home row does shift+arrows. Etc.
If you can interpret arbitrary chords using custom firmware, it’s possible to make a "combination of keys + arrows" about as easily without having dedicated arrow keys. [It’s possible this would get trickier to arrange if trying to play video games or something; I have no idea.] Which keystrokes in particular were you finding to be "very complicated"?
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Not true, at least not for everyone. I use 60% layout on TKL board (QFR + Frosty Flake and a custom firmware). To me it has nothing to do with aesthetics and is all about efficiency. If I was after aesthetics I would have gotten myself a poker.
A custom firmware to turn a TKL into a 60%? It seems like a waste of keys, don't you think? It would not be better to just get and use a 60%?
One day I will get GH60, sure. It has started as experiment - I wanted to make sure I can live with 60% board before I buy. The answer was yes I can but not with any of the standard layouts available - I have to have a fully programmable board. Extra keys, to be hones do not bother me that match. What I feel is wasteful is wrist movements to reach arrows or function keys. My muscle memory seems to work best as long as arms are not involved. I couldn't learn to touch type function keys and I always hated them, until I have tried 60% layout that is.
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A JP layout HHKB (or other board with small space bar) is a good candidate for Fn+keys for arrows since you have more keys reachable by thumb. Of course ErgoDox and other custom ergo boards it's even easier. Having a toggle for layers makes it easier to use modifers+arrows, too, so you don't have to hold so many keys down at the same time.
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Not true, at least not for everyone. I use 60% layout on TKL board (QFR + Frosty Flake and a custom firmware). To me it has nothing to do with aesthetics and is all about efficiency. If I was after aesthetics I would have gotten myself a poker.
A custom firmware to turn a TKL into a 60%? It seems like a waste of keys, don't you think? It would not be better to just get and use a 60%?
One day I will get GH60, sure. It has started as experiment - I wanted to make sure I can live with 60% board before I buy. The answer was yes I can but not with any of the standard layouts available - I have to have a fully programmable board. Extra keys, to be hones do not bother me that match. What I feel is wasteful is wrist movements to reach arrows or function keys. My muscle memory seems to work best as long as arms are not involved. I couldn't learn to touch type function keys and I always hated them, until I have tried 60% layout that is.
This explains a lot because the original poster question was way too general, it is important to clarify the context of it.
Combined arrows when using a standard non programmable board like the Poker X, HHKB Pro; a programmable 60% like GH60; a semi-programmable board like the Poker 2; a fully programmable non standard keyboard like Ergodox. Other case could be dedicated arrows + combination arrows with special firmware of software like Space Fn in a TKL or full size keyboard, where both methods may be available.
Maybe some one has even a different board and is using combination arrows.
I think we have been sharing our particular situation with no much thinking in the many possibilities where we can have the combination arrows.
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Normally I'd say dedicated, but that's a little difficult to do in a clean way on the ErgoDox. Currently I have ESDF setup as arrow keys on my layer 2 (which is a momentary toggle in the thumb cluster). I got used to it fairly quickly, and find myself highly effective in arrow-key dependent programs.
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Fn + letters for navigation is much better than dedicated arrow keys, assuming a keyboard with lots of easily accessible thumb keys. Large arm/wrist movements are slow, imprecise, and disruptive.
Maybe for navigation only, but not much if you need combinations for functions like marking a block of text up to a corner of a spreadsheet with 1000+ rows like when editing large data sets. Or when copying formulas over a a column and similar activities.
I've used a 60% for a year and the combination of keys with arrows is very complicated and that lack of dedicated arrows by no means makes the tasks easier. I agree that basic navigation may be more "efficient" because you already have your fingers in the home row, but any other use for arrows gets a little more complicated.
I would like to program some sort of fn+wasd and fn+ijkl as secondary arrow keys, but I am not sure what combination that could be. i am gonna try a script using AHK. I think that could be the best of both, dedicated arrows for the combination functions and secondary arrow keys for the basic navigation. I may try also space fn for that also.
What exactly are you doing? What are the specific key combination that you are using with the arrow keys? Adding shift, alt, and control into the mix is extremely easy. I have to doubt that there is something you can do that would require movement to the arrow keys. When I used Windows I had this all set up to a caps layer using the ahk based pkl (and that's only one way to do it), and it works very well. I would highly recommend you check it out. In particular, I think that control is the most evil key on the keyboard and have totally remapped its functionality.
It may not seem that bad moving your hand to the arrow keys, but after I've forced myself to stop using things that aren't accessible from the home row (I'm working on eliminating the number row right now), I feel that I've benefited a lot from the change. Less use of pinkies. More use of strong fingers. Less movement. Less pain. Greater efficiency.
I honestly never use the arrow keys for anything other than navigation, and I have them mapped to caps + qwerty hjkl. You can even set up a navigation layer to be used when you hold down something like the letter d (I can't really think of a better spot for "fn" ; it requires no movement at all). I assume this could be done with ahk on windows as well. I used to use a program called touchcursor which does this with the space bar (it will act normal unless you hold it and type another key with it).
Even when I'm gaming I don't usually use the arrow keys on my keyboard. Wasd usually suffices, though I do have to use a custom layer lock to get wasd in the right place (if I can't remap movement for the game) since I'm using Colemak. That being said, I like the look of the arrow keys and the numpad, for example, but I never use either.
Also, setting up basic chords on a software level without any sort of custom firmware or special keyboard is totally possible.
An ergonomic board is totally different of a standard rectangular board. The main difference are the thumb + something combinations that just can't be implemented in a regular board.
I think people underestimate what you can do on a normal board. You can, for example, setup the space bar to act as a modifier when held down and pressed with other keys. If you implement a wide mode (shift right hand over one), altgr also becomes more accessible. You can turn caps into a modifier. You can turn letters into modifiers. The sky is the limit. The more people who are interested in this sort of thing, the more support for different operating systems will grow and the more the ease with which these things will be able to be implemented will increase.
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Dedicated arrow keys are defiantly the way to go personally. As a writer, occasional coder, and gamer they are absolutely irreplaceable. This is why TKL>60% for me
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Dedicated arrow keys are defiantly the way to go personally. As a writer, occasional coder, and gamer they are absolutely irreplaceable. This is why TKL>60% for me
As a writer, occasional coder, and gamer, I'd have to say the opposite and point out that they are absolutely replaceable. I have absolutely replaced them (see my above post). Maybe you don't want to replace them, but they are 100% replaceable. I don't understand why one would want to use the arrow keys for writing or coding. If you don't just use the mouse and like using the keyboard for the two, then why not use an editor that obsoletes the arrow keys like vim? Using they arrow keys for either is extremely inefficient.
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Not everyone can use the editor of their choice at their job. I might be able to hobble along with something other than visual studio but I'd have to do a lot of extra work. Vim is very much not happening for me. I'd give fn + arrow keys a chance if I had the right board, but at the moment it's dedicated arrow keys for me. Mainly since it's more comfortable than a mouse.
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Isn't there a Vim plugin for VS?
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ever since i got my poker x i've been using WASD as my weapon of choice when it comes to arrow keys on my ErgoDoxes and even my Phantom which has dedicated arrow keys. When i jump on the HHKB, which i do from time to time, the arrow cluster on there is like natural as well. I think the reason the WASD works so well for me on the ergodox is the location of my function/layer and the fact i am a gamer.
oddly i miss dedicated F keys more than i miss my arrow keys on a normal keyboard, that's like the opposite of everyone else it seems.
i was thinking of modifying my ergodox layout so that bottom keys were the f keys but im still wrapping around in my head how i could do that successfully.
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Isn't there a Vim plugin for VS?
There's several. But some people (myself included) have built up too much muscle memory in Visual Studio. I purchased ViEmu a while back, and could never get it to play nice enough with the way I have Resharper set up.
Any time I do editing outside of VS I'm 100% vim though
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ever since i got my poker x i've been using WASD as my weapon of choice when it comes to arrow keys on my ErgoDoxes and even my Phantom which has dedicated arrow keys. When i jump on the HHKB, which i do from time to time, the arrow cluster on there is like natural as well. I think the reason the WASD works so well for me on the ergodox is the location of my function/layer and the fact i am a gamer.
oddly i miss dedicated F keys more than i miss my arrow keys on a normal keyboard, that's like the opposite of everyone else it seems.
i was thinking of modifying my ergodox layout so that bottom keys were the f keys but im still wrapping around in my head how i could do that successfully.
This, really. Initially with the poker there was the muscle memory issues of using the Fn layer for a lot of navigation as I use Excel and SAP quite a lot. You will use the arrow keys, home/pgup cluster and F-keys a lot but it didn't take that long to adapt and having the mouse so close to the body was a relief.
Now I can hardly use a regular keyboard as I get confused when having to use dedicated arrows. It takes a few extra moments as I realize there isn't any Fn key on the stock keyboards that other co-workers use.
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I'm a programmer working on Windows with three displays. Obviously, the navigation keys are very important for me. I have several Realforce 87U boards and an HHKB Pro 2 that I cycle through.
I almost sold my HHKB because of the nav keys being on the secondary layer. But I changed the left Win key to be another Fn key and I'm in heaven. I can do all my navigation without fingers leaving home row and I never have to look down at my board. It's actually faster than reaching for the nav cluster on my TKL boards. I'm now using my HHKB about 75% of the time.
This came at the cost of losing my left Win key. That took a bit of adjustment, but well worth it in the end.
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Unless you are banging out spreadsheets all day, you can live without arrows. Serious coders could have good use for them too.
Personally, I prefer the hhkb's location over WASD. Simply because its a one handed operation vs a two handed operation.
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Unless you are banging out spreadsheets all day, you can live without arrows. Serious coders could have good use for them too.
Personally, I prefer the hhkb's location over WASD. Simply because its a one handed operation vs a two handed operation.
Actually, arrow keys are very important to a coder. When you're navigating code (which is like a text document), arrow keys with Shift and Control allows you to highlight, copy and paste, etc. The less you have to reach for the mouse the better.
But, with the HHKB, that can be done faster than on a standard layout...once you learn the key combinations and develop the muscle memory.
The HHKB isn't for the casual user. It takes dedication. But the reward can be more productivity in return for the time investment.
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Actually, arrow keys are very important to a coder. When you're navigating code (which is like a text document), arrow keys with Shift and Control allows you to highlight, copy and paste, etc. The less you have to reach for the mouse the better.
Actually arrow keys are useless for a coder. HJKL is king!
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Actually, arrow keys are very important to a coder. When you're navigating code (which is like a text document), arrow keys with Shift and Control allows you to highlight, copy and paste, etc. The less you have to reach for the mouse the better.
Actually arrow keys are useless for a coder. HJKL is king!
I wasn't clear. I didn't mean 'dedicated' arrow keys are a must. I meant the use of arrow keys is important to me. And the HHKB navigation keys on the Fn layer work really well.
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Actually, arrow keys are very important to a coder. When you're navigating code (which is like a text document), arrow keys with Shift and Control allows you to highlight, copy and paste, etc. The less you have to reach for the mouse the better.
Actually arrow keys are useless for a coder. HJKL is king!
I wasn't clear. I didn't mean 'dedicated' arrow keys are a must. I meant the use of arrow keys is important to me. And the HHKB navigation keys on the Fn layer work really well.
Ive been testing potential arrow key layouts for my GH60 on my Phantom recently and (with the HHKB Fn key location) ISO has a massive advantage as you can use s/-# (;'[# on qwerty) to maintain the familiar inverted-T arrow cluster. The HHKB layout is a bit of a compromise IMO and can feel cramped at times.