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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: eugenius on Sun, 15 February 2009, 14:35:09
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Can you please compare key feel of the Topre Realforce 86u with the brown cherries from an ergoplus ...
I really don't know the topre key switch, but I have quite a clear idea of what I want. :)
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there are people who can explain the feel difference a lot better than me, but from my limited experience with both, I'd say topre feels more 'substantive'. That might mean slightly heavier resistance (tho its still pretty light), a lot smoother on the stroke, softer landing when you bottom, and quieter therefore, I'd say just slightly deeper throw. The topre reeks "quality" in a way the browns just dont. (but you do pay a lot for that ;).
when compared to other classes of switches, topre and browns do have some similarities. For instance compared to the much heavier buckling springs, or the much noisier and rambunctious alps switches, they're both very light and quiet.
You should try the topre in person if you can. Keep in mind you could always buy it and then resell it pretty easily if you wind up preferring the browns.
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I'll wait for more opinions ...
I was hoping for a lot more tactility, quietness and some kind of damping on landing, while keeping the light touch of the browns. :)
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Try to find the force curves. The "bump" on the topre switch is stretched over a longer distance.
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The force curve on the topre switches feel less "linear" than the browns. Think of the topre switch being just as light as the browns but the force to depress the keys feel like they are more at the "top" of the keystroke so it will feel like your fingers "spring back" faster.
For obvious reasons both switches seem to operate at peak speeds when you don't bottom out the key but the brown feels more harsh on the bottom out landing and makes more of a "clack" on the landing.
Topre feels like more of a "bump" in terms of tactility and browns feel more like a "notch".
Hope that helps.
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Topre feels like more of a "bump" in terms of tactility and browns feel more like a "notch".
To me this sounds like the tactile feeling of a quality rubber dome (since that is what the Topre switches are to a certain degree) vs. the mechanical feeling of a, well, mechanical switch.
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Topre capacitive force curve is similar to rubber dome:
(http://web.archive.org/web/20061222102057/www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~silencium/keyboard/gif/linear.gif)
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To me this sounds like the tactile feeling of a quality rubber dome (since that is what the Topre switches are to a certain degree) vs. the mechanical feeling of a, well, mechanical switch.
I agree with you mostly, except for the quality rubber dome comment.
The Topre is incredibly smooth to me and makes a 'thock thock' sound when bottomed out. Its one of the nicest key switches I have ever typed on. Overall it is a great feeling switch. You are spot on with the mechanical feel of a mechanical switch. While not any less desireable it really is a different feel compared to the Topre. I can't tell you which I would pick though, I have both and like them each for their own unique traits.
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Don't get me wrong, the Topre is no run-of-the-mill rubber dome 'board. It's just that a rubber dome provides the tactility, and that smooth, tactile feel (just the bump part) is characteristic of rubber domes vs. mechanical switches. The rest of the Topre switch and, from what I understand, experience is nowhere close to a regular rubber dome. :)
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That graph is not very useful without the actuation point and the browns on it. :)
Oh, and a legend ... what's on the horizontal axis? mm?
I want an almost silent non-click switch, 40g max force, very clear tactile bump created by a medium length plateau of very low force after the bump, and then a linear but rapid increase in actuation force, almost to the point where you can't bottom out - like the VERY heavy black cherry windows keys on the ergoplus.
That would be the ideal touch typing keyboard.
And obviously it's got to be black, ergonomic, illuminated and programmable. :)
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The graph is in grams/millimeters. I assume the weights given by Topre are for actuation force. There is a graph for Cherry MX brown (tactile feel ergonomic) is in this (http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0146/0900766b8014611b.pdf) datasheet.
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I want an almost silent non-click switch, 40g max force, very clear tactile bump created by a medium length plateau of very low force after the bump
40g and very clear tactile will be difficult...
and then a linear but rapid increase in actuation force, almost to the point where you can't bottom out - like the VERY heavy black cherry windows keys on the ergoplus.
... and linear but rapid either.
A light rubber dome might do that though. :confused:
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You might be able to achieve something similar by replacing the spring in ALPS with short stiff spring, although you might have to modify the stem to address the problem I found using short springs. You can use stems with dampers for quieter and softer landing.
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The Topre is not like any other switch, which can be said of all switches I suppose, but the thing is the Topre is so clean feeling and it sounds so good whether you bottom out or not. A lot of members here, myself included, rushed out and bought keyboards with brown Cherrys in them and promptly sold them because they are too damn light. Even the 30g keys on my Topre 86U are harder to press than the Cherry browns.
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maybe, but once you adjust to the brown cherry switch it is really quite nice.
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40g and very clear tactile will be difficult...
... and linear but rapid either.
A light rubber dome might do that though. :confused:
It's not difficult at all, IF you have a long-ish very low force palteau in the graph after it :)
Actually, that NMB rubber dome keyboard resembles what I want, but it's graph is 20g too high, the bump is wide because it's rubber domr and the low force plateau after the bump is non-existant. I would still like to try it. :)
Edit: now that I think about it, a long plateau is not very necessary, but a sharp decrease is. :)
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Maybe something like the Fujitsu Peerless mechanism, with a light rubber dome and a VERY stiff spring?
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It's not difficult at all, IF you have a long-ish very low force palteau in the graph after it :)
Actually, that NMB rubber dome keyboard resembles what I want, but it's graph is 20g too high, the bump is wide because it's rubber domr and the low force plateau after the bump is non-existant. I would still like to try it. :)
Edit: now that I think about it, a long plateau is not very necessary, but a sharp decrease is. :)
I meant "difficult" in the way of actually existing. The low force keys that exist aren't very tactile. This is 2nd hand knowledge though.
Maybe you can mod the NMB. Punch some holes into the rubber cups.
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I'm pretty sure there isn't a Nmb keyboard in this universe that could make me switch from the ergoplus ... much less a rubber dome with 60g force, so it's only about the switch.
I have an old rubber dome IBM keyboard that has that type of tactility I think .. I just remembered I don't like membrane tactility ie. long peak. :)
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Well, the Topres have a long peak. It's just much softer than a regular rubber dome.
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Alternately, maybe something along the lines of a Cherry brown with cut and stretched (lower force) springs, mounted on a weakly mounted PCB, so that it flexes a lot?
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You know, after reading this thread, I still don't understand what makes the Topre switch so great ... :)
1. Is it quieter than a brown cherry?
2. Is the landing softer than a brown cherry?
3. Is it more tactile than a brown cherry? Clearly more or comparable?
4. Is it lower force than a brown cherry?
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You know, after reading this thread, I still don't understand what makes the Topre switch so great ... :)
1. Is it quieter than a brown cherry?
2. Is the landing softer than a brown cherry?
3. Is it more tactile than a brown cherry? Clearly more or comparable?
4. Is it lower force than a brown cherry?
based on my minimal experience with both, re: the topre, I'd say two things jumped out at me when I used them:
-the sound. the sound of typing on it is kind of unique in the keyboard world I think, its a "thock thock thock" that I havent really heard anywhere else. I mean its not particularly special in itself, but its different, and its not unpleasant.
On a practical level, the sound was 'not too loud, not too soft', making it something you could use in an office setting while still enjoying some auditory feedback.
-the second thing that jumped out at me was the clearly high quality construction, the tightness of the keys (no wobble), smoothness of the stroke (extreme smoothness), and velvet landing of the downstroke (its not a hard or loud landing, and not a mushy/membrane feeling landing, its in between, literally like landing on velvet, is the closest description i can come up with - and again it was unique, different from the two extremes we're usually used to (hard/mushy).
To answer your questions individually:
1. Is it quieter than a brown cherry?
I'd say no. but its not as loud as alps or bs, its totally useable in mixed company.
2. Is the landing softer than a brown cherry?
i'd say yes, but not mushy.
3. Is it more tactile than a brown cherry? Clearly more or comparable?
this is a hard one. Topre felt linear to me but people tell me there is supposed to be a slight tactile bump or hump. When you type fast tho you wouldnt really notice (i didnt). but in that theyre simlar to browns where if you type fast you barely notice the tactility. so maybe a little less of a tactile bump on topres. They mainly felt smooth-linear to me.
Maybe if you took away the very slight bump i'd notice that it was gone, i dont know. but i didnt really notice that it was there.
4. Is it lower force than a brown cherry?
I'd say no. the cherry browns felt way too light to me, whereas the topres felt neither too light nor too hard.
Looking at my answers, I guess if there's one theme that emerges about the topre, its that they're a 'goldilocks' switch, apparently. Neither too hot nor cold, neither too hard nor soft, neither too loud nor quiet, etc.
Keep in mind though I'm doing all this from memory. I owned a brown cherry board for about a month, but only tried the topre for about 10 minutes in a starbucks. :) Maybe others will give you different answers.
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(but I still dont own a topre cuz I cant get myself to pay hundreds of bucks for it, and the buckling spring has successfully kept me happy in terms of awesome boards to have :) I think I'd eventually get a topre for work after I have a full time job (cuz the BS board would be too loud there).
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(but I still dont own a topre cuz I cant get myself to pay hundreds of bucks for it, and the buckling spring has successfully kept me happy in terms of awesome boards to have :) I think I'd eventually get a topre for work after I have a full time job (cuz the BS board would be too loud there).
The topre's can be expensive, no doubt, but if you can swing it then it is certainly worth having. I don't know of anyone who has one that is disappointed with it.
I agree with you on the buckling spring, they are awesome plain and simple.
Thankfully, they are moderately priced and easy to be had.
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yea a topre is definitely in my future, at some point. What is that beast in your avatar?
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yea a topre is definitely in my future, at some point. What is that beast in your avatar?
That is a 2 toed sloth. The eyes are somewhat demonic but I think that is misleading. From what I understand they are somewhat docile. I could be wrong though...
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That is a 2 toed sloth. The eyes are somewhat demonic but I think that is misleading. From what I understand they are somewhat docile. I could be wrong though...
looks a little like gordon gecko.
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looks a little like gordon gecko.
dang, I need to find another avatar.
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wellington, I noticed your avatar and it strikes me as being one of the oddest things. The whole buckling spring concept is so goofy. I mean that in a good way too. After looking at cherry switches and alps switches to name a few, the way the BS key works seems so bizarre...
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wellington, I noticed your avatar and it strikes me as being one of the oddest things. The whole buckling spring concept is so goofy. I mean that in a good way too. After looking at cherry switches and alps switches to name a few, the way the BS key works seems so bizarre...
lol, i thought so too. Its like something a child would come up with while playing with a mechano set.
and its so dependent on "balances" of forces. It seems like if you hold the board at the wrong angle, the switch really shouldnt work.
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wellington, I noticed your avatar and it strikes me as being one of the oddest things.
I kind of like the animation bit mixed in with the real thing.
The simplicity of buckling springs is a good thing, too.
That said, I need to get around to trying some brown cherry switches.
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I kind of like the animation bit mixed in with the real thing.
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oh the pic isnt mine, I stole it from some website (possibly sandy's website actually). prolly breaking some copyright laws but hey, i'll wait for the cease-and-desist letter ;)
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Not mine. It's from qwerters clinic (http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_bucklingspring.htm).
Actually I have two pics of A01 BS in different angles captured by qwerters. He sent those pics to me for my page. but still copy wright belongs to him, I think so.
Basically, I get permission to use other people's pictures before I put them in my pages.
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Not mine. It's from qwerters clinic (http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_bucklingspring.htm).
Actually I have two pics of A01 BS in different angles captured by qwerters. He sent those pics to me for my page. but still copy wright belongs to him, I think so.
Basically, I get permission to use other people's pictures before I put them in my pages.
sandy, you're back! where'd you run off to man?!
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I don't know of anyone who has one that is disappointed with it.
i'm somewhat disappointed with my realforce. not completely disappointed, because it is still a nice keyboard, but i didn't find it to be as praiseworthy as others have.
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i'm somewhat disappointed with my realforce. not completely disappointed, because it is still a nice keyboard, but i didn't find it to be as praiseworthy as others have.
its funny, I actually liked it mainly for *practical* reasons (like the right volume level) rather than any *inherent* greatness. In terms of "wow" factor I'm just as impressed with my buckling springs (and my real-simplified alps).
SO when I get it it'll really be as much for having a decent board to use in the office without getting yelled at. It was super-smooth though, I'll give it that.
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i'm somewhat disappointed with my realforce. not completely disappointed, because it is still a nice keyboard, but i didn't find it to be as praiseworthy as others have.
In what way are you disappointed? I don't have a realforce but do have an hhkb. The topre switches are very nice in the hhkb.
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In what way are you disappointed? I don't have a realforce but do have an hhkb. The topre switches are very nice in the hhkb.
the printing on the keys is inconsistent. the case halves don't line up well. the pinky keys feel like mush. there are variations in the switch actuation points. i don't particularly mind the cosmetic issues since they have no bearing on how well the keyboard works, but for >$200 they should not be there.
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the printing on the keys is inconsistent. the case halves don't line up well. the pinky keys feel like mush. there are variations in the switch actuation points. i don't particularly mind the cosmetic issues since they have no bearing on how well the keyboard works, but for >$200 they should not be there.
wow, sounds like you got a bad unit. I don't have those problems with my hhkb.
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I wonder if there might be counterfeit units out there.
Just speculation.
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wow, sounds like you got a bad unit.
the inconsistent keycap printing is on every realforce i've seen (pictures of). the mushy pinky keys are by design.
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the inconsistent keycap printing is on every realforce i've seen (pictures of). the mushy pinky keys are by design.
Oh wait, you have a Realforce; I missed that. That makes sense then. I was thinking you had an HHKB. I believe that other than the switches, the HHKB is made by another company (not Topre; PFU if I remember correctly).
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Are there any "regular" (101-104 key) layout 'boards that use Topre switches other than the Realforce? I am half-toying with getting one, but I don't want the variable-weighted switches, especially if the pinky switches are mushy. That, and from what I understand, the Topre switchs in the HHKB are "snappier" (I am not that big of a fan of the layout, though). I, too, am an Alps lover. :)
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So what exactly is the Topre switch? Can it be pulled from the pcb and mounted on another board? The HHKB page from the Wiki makes it look like a a membrane board with some sort of plastic overlay containing the mechanical mechanism. Is the overlay a separate piece and removable?
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It's a capacitive switch that's part of the PCB, with a conical spring and a rubber dome over that. No, it's not removable, although IIRC you can swap springs and domes between boards (or, in the case of a Realforce, positions on the same board) to get a different feel.
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I dont like the hhkb layout either. I have all my own shortcuts in autohotkey and its layout would wreak havoc on them.
I'd probably get a realforce board when I eventually get the topres. So itln are you saying the realforce is mushier (less snappy) than the hhkb? thats a pity. It was the hhkb that I tried and it was pretty neat. Not sure I'd want something mushier than it though, it was as soft as I could handle ('velvet' as i said). I wouldnt want anything softer than that though, I like my *crisp* landings a lot (which bs and alps provide in spades).
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Well, the Topre has (IIRC) three levels of switch weight - 30g, 45g (what the HHKB has,) and 55g. (55g on Esc, IIRC.)
Crispness goes down with weight.
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I would like just the 45 or 55g only on the 'board. None of this ultra-light crap.
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I suppose technically you could obtain springs and replace them on the 30g switches, right? (if you dont mind an additional 300 bucks for a second parts board, lol). I wonder if alps springs could be stuck under the topre dome. Wouldnt be conical i guess.
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I suppose technically you could obtain springs and replace them on the 30g switches, right? (if you dont mind an additional 300 bucks for a second parts board, lol). I wonder if alps springs could be stuck under the topre dome. Wouldnt be conical i guess.
I would imagine the rubber dome is thinner, too, thus the mushy feel. The thicker rubber domes would have a more crisp feel.
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The question is, is it a rubber dome sheet, or are the domes individual domes?
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i haven't had the keyboard apart yet. i think i've seen a picture of a disassembled one and rather than being a single sheet of domes or individual domes, they are strips of domes.
full-size realforce keyboards also have 55g num locks. i find the 45g keys to be just right, and if the keyboard had all 45g keys i'd be more inclined to use it on a regular basis.
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It's a single sheet for most of the keys:
HHKB (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=5995&postcount=61)
HHKB (http://www.computerartisan.com/hhk/pro0.jpg) (clearer pic)
Realforce 89U (http://www.lares.dti.ne.jp/~westvill/200507.html#10_t1)
Realforce 91UBK (http://www.geocities.jp/kousaku_situ/silent_realforce/srf-pata1.html)
Realforce 91U (http://beiz.blog76.fc2.com/blog-entry-655.html)
Some strips in the Realforce 89 (http://mineko.fc2web.com/box/kb-room/items/topre-realforce89.html) and 91US (http://blog-imgs-24.fc2.com/b/e/i/beiz/VFTS0488.jpg).
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Looks individual to me.
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I still don't get it. The rubber dome apparently constrains the spring, which gives the velvet feel Wellington talks about. But what is the actuator? Something that shorts a pair of contacts on a pcb? The Wiki gives me this "With the HHK Pro, however, a circular cone spring systems was adopted. This system is based on an electric capacitance system instead of an electrode system." Pressing the key makes the spring into a capacitor? The rubber dome is one side of the capacitor and proximity actuates it?
It boils down to this, could the thing be cut in pieces and still be reworked to function....