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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: jacobolus on Fri, 17 January 2014, 17:33:30

Title: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 17 January 2014, 17:33:30: http://arstechnica.com/staff/2014/01/stop-trying-to-innovate-keyboards-youre-just-making-them-worse/
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: Tym on Fri, 17 January 2014, 17:34:54: What the hell is wrong with that layout?

(http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/thinkpad-x1-carbon-keyboard.jpg)
:eek:
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: Novus on Fri, 17 January 2014, 17:37:17: What no FN key?
This ain't a lenova
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 17 January 2014, 17:49:59: There's some unusual key combination for doing caps lock, and the function keys are not discrete; the article author touch-typed on those too.

I felt there was no real issue with the keyboards examined in the article as well.
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: jonathanyu on Fri, 17 January 2014, 17:53:37: "60%" but no fn key?
and where is the caps lock
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: hotnvicious5 on Fri, 17 January 2014, 17:55:19: You tap Shift twice for Caps Lock. You can see the light on the Shift key.
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: Puddsy on Fri, 17 January 2014, 17:56:10: Quote from: hotnvicious5 on Fri, 17 January 2014, 17:55:19
You tap Shift twice for Caps Lock. You can see the light on the Shift key.

That sounds horrible...
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: fohat.digs on Fri, 17 January 2014, 17:56:33: At least it still has arrow keys.
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: vivalarevolución on Fri, 17 January 2014, 18:15:00: That Lenovo keyboard gets me every time. How the heck would anybody think that was a good idea? Do they not understand people at all?
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Fri, 17 January 2014, 18:20:45: Quote from: quadibloc on Fri, 17 January 2014, 17:49:59
I felt there was no real issue with the keyboards examined in the article as well.

Really? That Acer Aspire S7 keyboard is awful. I hate the stupid little arrow keys that are too tiny to hit — no kittens are killed if the arrows alone extend down a row. I use the function keys a lot, too. The horrible arrows have resulted in stretching the entire right side of the keyboard to goofy proportions.

It's also why I avoid big-ass enter boards — moving keys around means I'm guaranteed to constantly hit the spot where the key should be, and get something else. shift instead of \, # instead of backspace etc.

Laptop keyboards are an endless source of frustration with all the idiotic ideas people come up with. My personal laptop has home, page up etc down the far right (where they belong), but Windows at the top right! \ is also in the wrong place — the far right column appears to prevent there being enough room for ISO \ and ` is to the right of space. (And this is a 15" machine.)

I guess no layout won't have some degree of suckage, though I've used some really nice laptop layouts.

Besides, not only do you have to worry about the screen, but the surface material (should be a smooth eggshell finish greaseproof plastic, not "porous" plastic or gloss), screen resolution (they're all widescreen, so they all suck unless you're buying it just for YouTube), and the screen itself, as there are some shockingly bad TFT panels on laptops, as well as indicator lights that you can't see or plain aren't there (e.g. no HDD light).

I played with an HP once — lovely smooth pale blue-grey case, indicator lights where you could see them, nice keyboard, great display, port labels on the top of the case so you can locate ports easily ... I was a bit jealous, although it was a little on the large side.
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: noisyturtle on Fri, 17 January 2014, 18:43:53: Quote from: hotnvicious5 on Fri, 17 January 2014, 17:55:19
You tap Shift twice for Caps Lock. You can see the light on the Shift key.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: codymaust on Fri, 17 January 2014, 19:09:47: What model is that lenovo??
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: tbc on Fri, 17 January 2014, 23:04:59: still better than the thermaltake meka...
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 17 January 2014, 23:12:55: it's not that huge a change...

I really don't think this will be a problem
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: neun_sechs_zwei on Fri, 17 January 2014, 23:38:32: lol, that guy sounds like he sucks at typing (and computing).

caps lock? really? ctrl-break with windows ping? wgaf?? the insert key? <head asplode>

thanks for sharing the article though, it was a fun read.
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 17 January 2014, 23:50:29: Article can be summed up by the following: "Let us marvel together at its non-standardness."

First of all: since when was there a standard in keyboard layouts? Even the widely copied IBM enhanced KB layout was no real standard, just a de-facto one. The same can be said for their original PC layout, which was also widely copied.

Second of all: I understand not liking something because it's new and different, but divergent thinking is the only way growth can occur. We don't want to be stuck in the past. This layout has a lot of changes, but the old layout was by no means perfect.

I think pressing both shifts to toggle capslock makes more sense that doubletapping shift, but it's just a matter of preference.

The author is stuck in the past, and unwilling (or unable) to change. This alone, makes their conclusions less valid.
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: tbc on Fri, 17 January 2014, 23:59:27: on a laptop is the WORST place to experiment though. especially when you don't have a SKU with the previous standard available.
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: kolonelkadat on Sat, 18 January 2014, 00:17:01: I used to love laptop keyboards. But recently theyve gotten really ****ty. one of the worst offenders messed up the space bar so bad i had to hunt and peck for it. Like seriously move my hands away from the keyboard and search for _the spacebar_. It wasnt even a weird manufacturer. It was a dell or hp or something.

Runner up though was this really nice looking big screen laptop. so to keep the keyboard/touchpad from looking too small they fitted it with giant retard keys like on those old phones for blind people.
http://i01.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/192/315/262/1281688055002_hz-fileserver3_432747.jpg

and of course the mouse buttons only clicked on the outside edge instead of the inside edge where right and left click meet. this wouldnt be a big deal if the buttons werent like 3.5 inches (90mm) long...
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 18 January 2014, 02:14:30: I think overall he's a bit nutty, but there are some things that seem annoying in the new layout. The biggest one is: the top right of the main block should be backward delete, not forward delete. It’s already bad enough that for backwards delete I have to move my wrist / rotate my hand and hit the key w/ my ring finger [thumb-activated delete as is possible on ergodox, etc. is really nice], but making me additionally find the second-from-the-right key is not a good change.

It would actually work pretty well if the left key was forward delete and the right one was backward delete. Then I’d be in favor of the change, as it would make finding the forward delete key pretty easy compared to “standard”
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: Findecanor on Sat, 18 January 2014, 02:22:08: Quote from: hotnvicious5 on Fri, 17 January 2014, 17:55:19
You tap Shift twice for Caps Lock. You can see the light on the Shift key.
Really!? :eek:

People oh so hate the Sticky Keys feature in Windows when you have pressed Shift thrice. How much are people not going to hate the Caps Lock feature on this keyboard?
Will it disengage when you hit Shift once again, or will people have to know that they have to press Shift twice again to get out of Caps Lock mode? I see a future in which people will return the computer because it is stuck in Caps Lock.
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: Findecanor on Sat, 18 January 2014, 02:34:01: Quote from: jacobolus on Sat, 18 January 2014, 02:14:30
The biggest one is: the top right of the main block should be backward delete, not forward delete
Agreed. People are used to pressing the Backspace key in one of two places:
- In the middle, which would be just above the legend of the \ key: Which is now on the edge of the key, precariously close to the Delete key.
- On the right edge: Which is now forward Delete.
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: Ansich on Sat, 18 January 2014, 02:53:05: I didn't particularly agree with the points of the review, even though I don't like the way they made the new keyboard (Perhaps it might be better to put the Ctrl button where the split buttons are and move those one column lower). He kept stressing that he was a touch typist, who basically types thanks to muscle memory, where the layout of the keys bocmes a habit that you just do and not think. Changing the layout would therefore mean a tremendous slowdown. But from my own experience (when I write in my vernacular I type more or less 'blindly', while when I0m typing in other languages I have to look at the keys), when I changed the keycodes to quite a few keycaps, it at most took a few days to really get used to it and then it was back to business as usual. Criticizing the keyboard layout should be about functional irregularities that arise from the default layout, not about the fact that someone is a touch typist and therfore used to a certain kind of layout.
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: Zeal on Sat, 18 January 2014, 03:03:35: Quote from: Findecanor on Sat, 18 January 2014, 02:22:08
Quote from: hotnvicious5 on Fri, 17 January 2014, 17:55:19
You tap Shift twice for Caps Lock. You can see the light on the Shift key.
Really? I would like to know your source, so that I can refer to it on other boards.

People oh so hate the Sticky Keys feature in Windows when you have pressed Shift thrice. How much are people not going to hate the Caps Lock feature on this keyboard?
Will it disengage when you hit Shift once again, or will people have to know that they have to press Shift twice again to get out of Caps Lock mode? I see a future in which people will return the computer because it is stuck in Caps Lock.
I think the LED hole on LShift is the giveaway. There's no FN key so I can see double-tapping shift as an option. It's not that hard to disable sticky keys either, and how many times do you use Caps lock anyways?

Quote from: Findecanor on Sat, 18 January 2014, 02:34:01
Quote from: jacobolus on Sat, 18 January 2014, 02:14:30
The biggest one is: the top right of the main block should be backward delete, not forward delete
Agreed. People are used to pressing the Backspace key in one of two places:
- In the middle, which would be just above the legend of the \ key: Which is now on the edge of the key, precariously close to the Delete key.
- On the right edge: Which is now forward Delete.

I actually don't have a problem with Backspace placement as I tend to press the key towards the left of middle (around the | legend) on standard ANSI layout. I could see it becomign a problem for those that are used to 1 unit Backspace at the top right corner though. The biggest problem I have with delete is that it sometimes deleting characters as I type...
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: Findecanor on Sat, 18 January 2014, 03:08:22: Quote from: Zeal on Sat, 18 January 2014, 03:03:35
I think the LED hole on LShift is the giveaway. There's no FN key so I can see double-tapping shift as an option.
But the LED hole on the Left Shift key does tell your how to get in or out of Caps Lock.
First of all, the hole is very small so you might miss it when the light is not lit. When it is lit, then it only tells you that Caps Lock mode is enabled, but at that time you would probably have noticed already.

The keyboard for the old NextStep computers did also have a LED window on the left Shift key and no dedicated Caps Lock key, but on that computer the Caps Lock mode was invoked in a different way. Can you guess how?
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: tuxsavvy on Sat, 18 January 2014, 04:45:41: If this design gets adopted by the majority of *nix users, I will eat my own words.

Seriously, there are some valid points the author of that review has mentioned.

How is one supposed to use F1-F12 keys when it is all to do with some magic "double-tapping" and hope the little LED illumination is the right one? If one were running under linux for example Ctrl+Alt+F1~F7 where a whole bunch of virtual terminal exist before an X server session this would now be some weird combo that may involve Ctrl+Alt+<some random voodoo magic>+F1~F7 to get in between terminal sessions. Sure that is very useful actually... not... That is not to mention that from Ctrl+Alt+F8~F12 there are at least four more spare terminals for one to do whatever they want with.

What about the backtick/grave character and the asciitilde? these characters were once on the top or near the top rows of the keyboard. On this lenovo X1 they have been relegated to the bottom. For a linux user the backtick/grave is handy for escaping certain command execution sequence and the asciitilde is known for instance a shortcut to one's home directory.

Something tells me after using these new lenovo x1 keyboards one's fingers would be more like this:
(http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/Random/pretzel-fingers.jpg)

Innovative? sure but it also sounds like pigs can also fly when lenovo tries to force this layout down people's throats and expect them to also work with keyboards that does not use the exact same layout.

I seriously cannot understand what is the point lenovo is trying to make. A minimalist keyboard without Fn keys but this so-called LED enabled function keys which I would laugh if it was all software dependant. If it was to make that touchpad area larger then that would be really be backwards thinking of lenovo as most people would have thought of touchscreen these days, not having huge touchpad with tiny buttons on top and puny keyboard with no Fn keys, no function keys and weird layout that is guaranteed to break compatibility when using other keyboard layouts.
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Sat, 18 January 2014, 04:53:42: I'd be ok with the ThinkPad if it was like this...

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: jabar on Sat, 18 January 2014, 05:04:13: Of all the changes, I have never used Home/End with the left hand. That would drive me nuts since all cursor movement is usually nicely clustered on the right hand. I do like PgUp/PgDn flanking the arrows.
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: Soarer on Sat, 18 January 2014, 05:21:32: Yeah, home/end over there is just nuts. So is keeping right shift 2.75 units long! Here's my 'fixing'...

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: gropingmantis on Sat, 18 January 2014, 05:55:27: Caps Lock is a stupid key. I dont understand why laptop manufacturers seem incapable of just using a standard 60% layout? Would that be too much to ask? Replace caps with ctrl (and have the bottom right key as Fn) or with Fn. Problem solved.
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: strict on Sat, 18 January 2014, 09:43:01: Quote from: Findecanor on Sat, 18 January 2014, 02:22:08
Quote from: hotnvicious5 on Fri, 17 January 2014, 17:55:19
You tap Shift twice for Caps Lock. You can see the light on the Shift key.
Really!? :eek:

People oh so hate the Sticky Keys feature in Windows when you have pressed Shift thrice. How much are people not going to hate the Caps Lock feature on this keyboard?
Will it disengage when you hit Shift once again, or will people have to know that they have to press Shift twice again to get out of Caps Lock mode? I see a future in which people will return the computer because it is stuck in Caps Lock.

To enable sticky keys (at least on every computer Ive ever used) you have to press shift 5 times in relatively quick succession.
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: FoxWolf1 on Sat, 18 January 2014, 12:22:43: I actually support "keyboard innovation", and tend to think that even some of the layouts that people love to hate (like TT Meka) have certain strengths that are often overlooked. That said, some of the things about the particular keyboard under discussion here trouble me...the touch strip thing, for instance, seems inferior to a well-designed function layer, and putting home and end in a position where they'll often get hit accidentally (as Caps Lock does) seems like a recipe for frustration.

Still, there are far weirder layouts.

(http://99hk.biz/Plum/86_Key/2.jpg)
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: Zeal on Sat, 18 January 2014, 13:34:54: Quote from: FoxWolf1 on Sat, 18 January 2014, 12:22:43
I actually support "keyboard innovation", and tend to think that even some of the layouts that people love to hate (like TT Meka) have certain strengths that are often overlooked. That said, some of the things about the particular keyboard under discussion here trouble me...the touch strip thing, for instance, seems inferior to a well-designed function layer, and putting home and end in a position where they'll often get hit accidentally (as Caps Lock does) seems like a recipe for frustration.

Still, there are far weirder layouts.

Show Image
(http://99hk.biz/Plum/86_Key/2.jpg)

:eek: What a waste of space @ bottom right arrow cluster... And that Backspace key! I would go crazy trying to reach for that key up there.
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: davkol on Sat, 18 January 2014, 16:40:31: Don't show that guy an '80s maltron, his head might explode then.
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: Kamen Rider Blade on Sat, 18 January 2014, 19:10:18: Personally I prefer the standard keyboard layout that IBM created way back in the day.

Standardized keyboard layouts make it easy for me to jump from one machine to another and use it.

If I have to figure out where a specific key is located by looking at the keyboard instead of just typing and moving my hand to where I naturally would move my fingers to via muscle memory, then the designer failed in there job and they need to be fired IMO.

Certain additional key placements are ok, and changes are ok IMO, but generally having a layout that is close to standard is the best solution for universal compatibility.

For me, there is a limited amount of change that I find to be a true improvement

For example:

Pg Up / Pg Dn = Fn + (Up Arrow / Down Arrow)
Home / End = Fn + (Left Arrow / Right Arrow)
Delete = Fn + Backspace
Insert = Fn + Enter
NOTE: This shortcut Fn bindings was popularized by Apple to some degree, and it is a good choice that every manufacturer should follow IMO if you are going to use a condensed keyboard.

The 6 key cluster could be re-arranged from the
Original Layout:
[Insert][Home][Pg Up]
[Delete][End][Pg Dn]

to this alternate layout:
[Home][End][Pg Up]
[Delete][Insert][Pg Dn]
- The reason I state this change is that "Home" / "End" makes sense in a left to right position for the latin language keyboard layouts since most of them follow that direction in text flow, so having the "Home" / "End" be in a left / right position makes perfect sense in my mind.
- Unless you're using a East Asian language, making "Home" / "End" in a vertical layout only makes sense in a those languages traditional text flow since the languages are traditionally written in a (Top -> Bottom) & (Right -> Left) layout, which at that point you should make a layout specifically for them. However, alot of East Asian languages have converted to a "Left -> Right" layout for writing documents, so this makes less sense in this day and age.
- "Pg Up" / "Pg Dn" makes sense being placed one above the other since that's how the mind processes page scrolling.
- Insert is a function that you rarely want to press in document typing, so having it be hidden in the center on the bottom row is fine.

These are common enough and well thought out enough changes to a standard keyboard layout that I wouldn't mind seeing all of those features added to a standard layout

Are there any changes you folks find to be a improvement over the default layout that you don't mind seeing manufacturers implement?
Title: Re: “Stop trying to innovate keyboards. You’re just making them worse”
Post by: Sinzz on Sun, 19 January 2014, 01:43:29: I honestly welcome this keyboard "innovation," or any other keyboard innovation out there. It's a step in figuring out the best layout. If that weren't the case. Then QWERTY, DVORAK, COLEMAK, TKL, 60% etc wouldn't have been made. Sure, some innovations are hideous or a wonder what made people think that it would possibly work, but this really isn't all thar bad. I rarely use Caps lock anyways. (Had a broken caps lock key when I was a kid and never really used it since.) I'll probably end up getting the x1 carbon, it's a really nice laptop.