geekhack
geekhack Marketplace => Great Finds => Topic started by: xyzzy on Wed, 18 February 2009, 16:03:59
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NIB IBM Model M 1391401, USD 9.99 http://search.ebay.com/250376020921
NIB IBM Model M 1391401, USD 2.99 http://search.ebay.com/250373440328
NIB IBM Model M 1391401, USD 9.99 http://search.ebay.com/310123645849
NIB IBM Model M 1391401, USD 2.99 http://search.ebay.com/310123641924
MINT IBM Model M Industrial, Metal Logo, USD 49.95 BIN http://search.ebay.com/140302440626
NIB IBM Model M Spacesaver, USD 15.99 http://search.ebay.com/170303161989
NIB IBM Model M Spacesaver, USD 19.99 http://search.ebay.com/180329890317
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I would be all over that industrial if I knew I would use it. I would buy it, look at it, and put it in storage. That would be a shame.
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The model m mini's are already pushing 100 dollars. Amazing.
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I pulled the model m mini off of the shelf and replaced the filco for awhile. I plugged the IBM straight into my pc instead of going through the KVM. Man, its got the greatest feel.
: ) All other keyboards are pretenders : )
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Damn. That's an obscene deal on that industrial M.
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: ) All other keyboards are pretenders : )
seconding...
Damn. That's an obscene deal on that industrial M
Thats a very neat gray one.
The spacesavers are up over $100 now, lol.
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I bought it.
which one? the gray industrial one?
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what is the obsession with space savers? are people so crammed for space? or is it just "more" cool?
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I like the space savers because they center under a monitor better and you don't have to place the mouse so far to the right of the screen center. In addition to that, I never use the 10-key number pad so it's wasted keyboard and space.
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i went thru a spacesaver 'phase' when I had some RSI but i'm back on full size boards now, I like having the numpad which I use frequently as calculator and etc.
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I like that the mini's take up less space. And I don't use a numpad, so why have it.
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I can go days at a time without touching a mouse, since I use a tiling window manager, but having the mouse closer gives me better posture. If I used the numpad I would buy a separate one and put it on the left.
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Ah k. I can see the advantage if you are right handed and frequently use said hand for the mouse. It wasn't obvious to me since I'm a leftie!
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I can go days at a time without touching a mouse, since I use a tiling window manager
How does that work? How do you avoid tab, tab, tab, tab, ...
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How does that work? How do you avoid tab, tab, tab, tab, ...
I spend 90% of my time outside the web browser. When I am using the web, I am usually going to specific sites, and Firefox will find links as you type them.
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How does that work? How do you avoid tab, tab, tab, tab, ...
Tab, tab you mean pressing the tab to cycle down links on a web page?
Modern tabbed windows managers are great, CTRL + PageUp / PageDown cycles you through the tabs.
I find that if you set up hotkeys to launch your most used programs there is almost no need to use the mouse, other then browsing the web. Even then, a well designed web page can still be navigated with the keyboard via the TAB key.
I find that I sit back and use the mouse while browsing, but when actually working outside of firefox I often don't need to touch the mouse at all.
Webwit - Wow. Great buy. I wish I had been scanning ebay when that one came up!
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Wow... one of the Model M Spacesavers is already over $160 when you include the shipping.
Wish I had a few like that to sell!
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Wow... one of the Model M Spacesavers is already over $160 when you include the shipping.
Wish I had a few like that to sell!
No kidding, I wish I had a garage full of them, all NIB.
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Maybe it's just me, but does it seem like eBay has been flooded with Model M keyboards lately, or are there always that many available and I've simply not noticed before?
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I have been watching on and off for the past year. There always seems to be plenty of full size model M's available, which is a good thing. The model M mini's are harder to find though, especially NIB.
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Remember, a Model M or some variant thereof was included with many PC/ATs, every PS/2 (although some got Model M4s (the PS/2E,)) every PS/1 (well, a Model M2,) and some newer IBM systems.
Of course they're gonna be common. :)
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Remember, a Model M or some variant thereof was included with many PC/ATs, every PS/2 (although some got Model M4s (the PS/2E,)) every PS/1 (well, a Model M2,) and some newer IBM systems.
Of course they're gonna be common. :)
And that is a good thing overall. Except that the day will come and they will be harder to find. I expect the prices to go up then.
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thats why you have to collect as many of your favorite keyboard as possible now before the rest of the world realizes how awesome clicky keyboards truly are.
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2 different people told me they wouldn't sell me their m15s unless they died. man thats pretty impresive lol
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Now to play the waiting game...
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zwmalone are you kidding? it's a f---ing m13, wheels, why not off them?
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Why off someone over an M13, I can get those (in black, even) for $100 all day long. :p
An M15, OTOH...
You know, now, the buckling spring patents have expired... although, honestly, unless the 65g BS in the M15 really is all it's cracked up to be, if I needed a clicky ergo, I'd rather have Cherry blues.
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Are there any ergo keyboards with blue Cherry switches? I have two with white Alps switches, but availability of such a board with blue Cherry switches would likely convince me to add yet another keyboard to the collection...
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No, but you could convert a G80-5000 (aka ErgoPlus) to have blues. It comes with browns.
(Of course, US layout ErgoPluses are almost as expensive as M15s. But, I believe German layout ones aren't THAT bad...)
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No, but you could convert a G80-5000 (aka ErgoPlus) to have blues. It comes with browns.
(Of course, US layout ErgoPluses are almost as expensive as M15s. But, I believe German layout ones aren't THAT bad...)
Oh well. I'll stick with off-the-shelf, unmodded keyboards. Perhaps Filco or Cherry will one day answer the call for a blue Cherry ergo board. Or Topre for a Realforce ergo... 'cept that one would probably be $500. :)
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Or Topre for a Realforce ergo... 'cept that one would probably be $500. :)
I'm too lazy to search for the thread, but this exists. I can't remember the manufacturer, but there is an ergo 'board with Topre switches, and I do believe that it is in the $500 range.
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Now to play the waiting game...
: ) lol, now thats funny
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On another note, I just got the NIB model m mini today. I am totally psyched.
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I'm too lazy to search for the thread, but this exists. I can't remember the manufacturer, but there is an ergo 'board with Topre switches, and I do believe that it is in the $500 range.
I did search, and couldn't find anything... I hit Google, too...
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Thread: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=1156&highlight=Topre
Direct link: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=jp&u=http://www.personal-media.co.jp/utronkb/
Chloe would be proud. :)
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I bought it.
webwit, that was quite a deal on that Industrial. :cool:
I like them better than the regular model M in some ways. The coloring is strange in that photos don't really do them justice, and they look far better in person than in any photos that I've seen. The color seems to change a great deal from one photo to the other as well.
All the different terms regarding their color don't fit when actually looking at these boards... not really gray, but not really olive drab, or beige, either - the exact color is a bit hard to describe, but in person they look very nice, and the silver text on black IBM logo on some models look really cool, too.
Hope you enjoy that board.
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I got one of the other ones. There was another silver logo that didn't look to be in very good condition so I opted for a slightly newer black logo that's in great shape. Indeed, the color is hard to describe. It's definitely not gray, but it's like olive-drab with a little tan mixed in. It has a detachable cable, and two-piece keys. It's a worthy addition to my collection, and the price was unbeatable :)
I'd *love* to use it at work, but I'll have to stick with my M4 until I get moved into my own office. My coworkers are very picky about noise.
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Indeed, the color is hard to describe. It's definitely not gray, but it's like olive-drab with a little tan mixed in.
Yeah, I once heard someone refer to them as "putty" colored, and sometimes that seems to describe it best. It's one of those things that you really need to see in person to get true feel and understanding for it.
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Why off someone over an M13, I can get those (in black, even) for $100 all day long. :p
An M15, OTOH...
You know, now, the buckling spring patents have expired... although, honestly, unless the 65g BS in the M15 really is all it's cracked up to be, if I needed a clicky ergo, I'd rather have Cherry blues.
Yeah that's what I meeant, off someone over an m15.
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Why off someone over an M13, I can get those (in black, even) for $100 all day long. :p
An M15, OTOH...
You know, now, the buckling spring patents have expired... although, honestly, unless the 65g BS in the M15 really is all it's cracked up to be, if I needed a clicky ergo, I'd rather have Cherry blues.
I would love a new ergo 'board with a decent layout. I love my Evolution, but the layout sucks with the page nav. keys in the middle. I could even take care of the noise a bit with a black Alps transplant. I would like an ergo 'board with black Alps or brown/blue Cherrys and styling of the Das III or MS Natural 4000 (especially the layout).
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I wonder if there's any patents on the MS layout.
Also, would you be opposed to not having the curved hump of the MS layout, just having the board halves at an angle to each other? Because I don't think a curved PCB is actually POSSIBLE, and anything else would be insane.
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I wonder if there's any patents on the MS layout.
Also, would you be opposed to not having the curved hump of the MS layout, just having the board halves at an angle to each other? Because I don't think a curved PCB is actually POSSIBLE, and anything else would be insane.
You wouldn't even need a pcb if you did it like this (http://www.maltron.com/maltron-kbd-flat-assembly.html)
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Hmm.
But, I did just take a look for patents... and the only patent I could see being an issue, for a copy of the basic Microsoft ergo design, is design patent 362,432 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=L3spAAAAEBAJ).
And because the only thing I'd be taking is the basic key layout, not the styling... I don't think it would be an issue.
Now, doing humps like what the Natural 4000 has... that would run afoul of patent 7,338,224 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=vIupAAAAEBAJ)... but it's difficult to do that cheaply with keyswitches, even (especially?) with a Maltron-like setup.
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I don't think a curved PCB is actually POSSIBLE, and anything else would be insane.
The Kinesis Advantage actually uses curved PCBs. Details here: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=22096
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Now, doing humps like what the Natural 4000 has... that would run afoul of patent 7,338,224 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=vIupAAAAEBAJ)... but it's difficult to do that cheaply with keyswitches, even (especially?) with a Maltron-like setup.
I never said it was going to be cheap, just possible. You shouldn't expect anything less with such a niche market product as an ergo mechanical keyboard though...
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Oh, weird. But, those can't be cheap. ;)
Remember, if I were to do this, I'd be competing with the (somewhat ergonomically superior) Microsoft Natural 4000 at $60.
Not that I'm into ergo keyboards or anything, but... if this could make money...
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I like the curve, and I think it should be do-able; the Maltron and Kinesis 'boards with Cherry switches are curved.
EDIT: Completely ignore this. I didn't realize there was a whole new page of comments before I posted.
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Simply tilted would be fine, too.
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Now that I remember, DSI said they would make something like this for me, but I think they were looking for an order of around 10000 units, not just a couple of one-offs.
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I'll note, BTW, that the way I would do this, only one custom keycap would be needed - the spacebar. The other keycaps would be standard Cherry.
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I'll note, BTW, that the way I would do this, only one custom keycap would be needed - the spacebar. The other keycaps would be standard Cherry.
Actually I think if you used japanese spacebars (One on each side) we could get around that problem too :)
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Actually I think if you used japanese spacebars (One on each side) we could get around that problem too :)
I don't know how much it would cost just to by Japan Layout spacebars but it's certainly going to be cheaper than having custom spacebars fabbed considering the high price with custom molding and most likely (being small plastic parts) it would have a high number that'd have to be purchased in advance before anyone would even consider it...
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The other thing is, I'm not sure Japanese spacebars are gonna be short enough.
Anyway, let's go ahead and set the angles...
Split angle: 12 degrees
Transverse slope angle: 8 degrees
Feet will provide an angle, likely in the ~5-15 degree range, for longitudinal slope
The first two angles shamelessly stolen from page 2 of this patent: http://www.google.com/patents?id=vIupAAAAEBAJ
It's in their prior art, and I can't find a patent covering that, so...
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The other thing is, I'm not sure Japanese spacebars are gonna be short enough.
http://www.diatec.co.jp/image_prod/FKB108MJB_01.jpg
http://zwmalone.dabananabunch.com/downloads/KBD/KBD%20003.jpg
Just by eyeing it the spacebar seems to be about the length of one of the spacebars on my ergo board...
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But remember that in 2009, we need Windows keys there, too. :)
The other option, of course, is to just put a regular spacebar in, and learn to deal with it being incongruous with the rest of the board.
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Instead of using extra width control, alt and windows keys do like the SMK-85 and use letter sized keys for the ctrl, alt and win keys and you can easily fit the windows, control, alt and spacebar keys without having to learn a new layout...
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Well, the other thing is, I don't know that letter-sized caps for those keys exist. ;) (Actually, the Windows keys on my M10 are slightly narrower than the letter keys, though.)
I could pull a Realforce, and only put one Windows key on, but that'd annoy the "I need 11tybn keys for Autohotkey" crowd. ;)
And, here's what the layout would look like with both Windows keys: (this is a chop of a G80-3000 - the image was slightly skewed, so that's why the angles don't look perfect)
(http://bhtooefr.ath.cx/images/chops/cherryergo.jpg)
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That doesn't look too hard to get used too. It looks like it follows the apple adjustable's space bar design...
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If I'm going to be designing an ergo board, I probably need to get my hands on an MS ergo board to compare, but I *THINK* that will actually work fairly nicely, because that's about where the thumbs would normally be. Might even be better for those with large hands, than something like how the KB7001 does it.
The biggest problem with that design is it necessitates either a hand-wired keyswitch (bad) or a PCB for one keyswitch (not as bad, but still bad.) On the flip side, it doesn't need two switches.
There might also be some tweaking - the MS board has more width between the halves, and in fact, for that route, a LONGER spacebar may be more desirable.
Also, I just know there'll be the "ZOMG WE NEED A TENLESS" or "ZOMG WE NEED AN ARROWLESS" crowd chiming in. ;)
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I can help you out with the Microsoft ergo board. I have them all... original, Elite, Pro, Multimedia, and 4000. The only one still plugged into a functioning computer is the Elite. :)
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Hmm... I'm taking a huge risk here investing in such a project, I'd basically have to luck out and find someone willing to dump a lot of money into it (enough to buy 10,000 boards from Costar or another ODM, basically.) (I'm damn near on subsistence-level spending right now...)
How much would you want for the original? The other thing is, I'd only need it to take measurements, and compare to this frankenboard, if I can get my hands on a chopping-quality G80-3000 (fully-functional, ANSI layout, but beat up and ugly, is what I'm going for) - then I could send it back. Then, maybe, I could have people beta test the frankenboard, and then go to Costar or the like with the design, and try to convince them to make an initial run for me on credit or something... god, this is risky.
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If you don't mind prototyping with an ALPS board you could get one of these (http://cgi.ebay.com/Dell-AT101W-AT-101W-Keyboard-Nice_W0QQitemZ350171390347QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item350171390347&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50#ebayphotohosting) for only $8.99...
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i love my kb 7001s. the layout is nice. i absolutely need an ergo keyboard to type without pain. is there any switches i can change the white alps to ? im a noob at this.
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i love my kb 7001. the layout is nice. is there any switches i can change the white alps to ? im a noob at this.
Yellow/Green Linear ALPS, Black tactile/nonclicky ALPS, cream ALPS (like in the APPLE Keyboard II), and if you're willing to solder, strongman switches...
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Hmm. Does look like it has the same key geometry as a Cherry... but, that's not $8.99, that's $21.98.
Or almost 158 meals ($1.67 for a box of 12 packs of ramen...)
Yeah, I'm thinking like that. Unemployment runs out the end of March, and I have no real prospects for finding a job in this economy...
zwmalone: There's also the blue clicky+tactile Alps, which are higher quality...
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Yellow/Green Linear ALPS, Black tactile/nonclicky ALPS, cream ALPS (like in the APPLE Keyboard II), and if you're willing to solder, strongman switches...
Since that board has complicated ALPS you can only use complicated ALPS without soldering. For blacks that limits you to the AT-101W and other keyboards with bigfoot Blacks, creams limits you to SGI AT101 and Apple Keyboard II, and yellow&Green Zenith KBs.
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Hmm. Does look like it has the same key geometry as a Cherry... but, that's not $8.99, that's $21.98.
Or almost 158 meals ($1.67 for a box of 12 packs of ramen...)
Yeah, I'm thinking like that. Unemployment runs out the end of March, and I have no real prospects for finding a job in this economy...
zwmalone: There's also the blue clicky+tactile Alps, which are higher quality...
I forgot about those. The only boards I know that have those are super expensive Leading Edge boards...
Sorry things are so tough bht :( I seriously hope you find a decent job before your unemployment runs out...
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How much would you want for the original? The other thing is, I'd only need it to take measurements, and compare to this frankenboard, if I can get my hands on a chopping-quality G80-3000 (fully-functional, ANSI layout, but beat up and ugly, is what I'm going for) - then I could send it back.
If you're actually serious about doing this, I can loan you the original Natural keyboard for as long as you need it.
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There's also some Focus boards that have them - a friend of mine has one. He actually wasn't familiar with what Cherry switches looked like, and thought they were Cherry blues, until I showed him pics of Cherries.
Of course, he says that the Cherry blues remind him of the Alps blues...
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If you're actually serious about doing this, I can loan you the original Natural keyboard for as long as you need it.
Well, I wouldn't want to do that until I've at least got a board to chop. I can do the chopping and such without actually having a keyboard to model it on, as I know where I want the board to be split, no matter what layout I ultimately use -the MS board won't be needed until it comes to the stage of putting those pieces of keyboard together.
But, I'll keep your offer in mind. :) Thanks.
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Somehow I missed this thread turning into a project thread. :)
If you don't mind prototyping with an ALPS board you could get one of these (http://cgi.ebay.com/Dell-AT101W-AT-101W-Keyboard-Nice_W0QQitemZ350171390347QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item350171390347&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50#ebayphotohosting) for only $8.99...
The Alps has the controller on the switch pcb. This will complicate things. I'd rather get a Cherry where the controller is separate.
Well, I wouldn't want to do that until I've at least got a board to chop. I can do the chopping and such without actually having a keyboard to model it on, as I know where I want the board to be split, no matter what layout I ultimately use -the MS board won't be needed until it comes to the stage of putting those pieces of keyboard together.
Be sure to saw/dremel the pcb outside. Pcbs contain formaldehyde. The dust is not nice.
If you want to buy 10000 pieces from an OEM you're looking at a serious investment beyond credit.
I have a Fujitsu-Siemens KBPC E ergo board you could have for free. But shipping would be high and it is ISO. Wouldn't matter if you replace the internals. It would be adjustable including roof angle. It's the same as the Kinesis Maxim (but ISO):
(https://www.pc-maeuse.de/media/images/fsc_ergo_kbpc_big.jpg)
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Well, I'm really looking to do a layout like the MS layout, so starting with a conventional 104-key board will be best, I think, but thanks.