geekhack
Site Announcements and Feedback => Announcements/Feedback/Suggestions => Topic started by: Lanx on Tue, 21 January 2014, 16:36:38
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I know GH doesn't participate in any trades/sales that happen on GH, as it should be, however i think there can be rules that each member can take to at least try to protect themselves.
1. GH sets up a Gmail account that only the mods have access. (i.e. ghtrades@gmail.com) i particularly didn't choose to use the gh address just so it really has no association with GH.
2. before a trade, a member writes legibly on a piece of paper.
a. their user name
b. the item to be traded
c. the amount
d. the date
e. paypal email address (this is highly debatable, i don't think this should be included)
and then take a selfie, with a recent newspaper and/or the item to be traded.
almost everyone in the world has a phone with a camera, if you don't, you don't belong a website with "geek" in it, and everyone has access to a daily newspaper for a few cents.
they'll upload and send pic to
a. the person to trade with
b. to the mod only gmail account
once both parties have agreed that the correct amount of information is exchanged between themselves and the mod only gmail account, then they should proceed with the transaction.
if it works out well, then great GH doesn't get involved and they have emails in a gmail account.
if it doesn't work out... then the shunned party can post the pic they received and if gh wants to, they can verify or not.
and if either party doesn't do this... well don't come on complaining 2 months later... "i got scammed, yada, yada... with limited proof"
this is a spin on "proof of life"
it proves that the username, is a real person, has the item in question, has a real face, has a dated newspaper clipping, and has access to basic technology.
of course you can say... photoshop, different person blah blah look at the exif data then.
of course this sounds a bit complicated for a tiny trade... but if you were willing to trade off a $100 keyboard or 2... why not do this?
then of course, this can be used later
"OMG i'm in a terrible accident, i'll send the keyboard in 2 weeks"
well then upload a pic of you in a hospital gurney, we already know what the real person looks like since everyone took precautions before.
if you won't, then you're lying.
"OMG my grandmother died"... take a selfie near the casket! (well... you get the idea)
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But the mods already have said they won't get involved.
But I do agree in regular classifieds it would be nice if people would post a note with their username and date, this is fairly common in most every other forum.
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I don't agree to this on the one basis that we have to take a selfie.
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I don't agree to this on the one basis that we have to take a selfie.
Well perhaps a rule that if your under 18 your parent has to co-sign on any deals/trades? :P
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If this was made mandatory, I think the Classifieds section would pretty much die.
And what about group buys? There have been a couple of those where the organiser disappears with all the money.
When engaging in trade with someone you don't know, and especially in a different country, there are always risks. Sometimes risks beyond the control of either party.
Scammers are usually identified fairly quickly around here.
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I don't agree to this on the one basis that we have to take a selfie.
Well perhaps a rule that if your under 18 your parent has to co-sign on any deals/trades? :P
Then I'll just go to ebay to sell my **** and just deal with their fees.
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I don't agree to this on the one basis that we have to take a selfie.
Well perhaps a rule that if your under 18 your parent has to co-sign on any deals/trades? :P
Then I'll just go to ebay to sell my **** and just deal with their fees.
Do you have your own Ebay account?
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I don't agree to this on the one basis that we have to take a selfie.
Well perhaps a rule that if your under 18 your parent has to co-sign on any deals/trades? :P
Then I'll just go to ebay to sell my **** and just deal with their fees.
Do you have your own Ebay account?
yup
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I don't agree to this on the one basis that we have to take a selfie.
Well perhaps a rule that if your under 18 your parent has to co-sign on any deals/trades? :P
Then I'll just go to ebay to sell my **** and just deal with their fees.
Do you have your own Ebay account?
yup
Interesting...so you basically lie to bypass the rules there??
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/identity-underage-users.html
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I don't agree to this on the one basis that we have to take a selfie.
Well perhaps a rule that if your under 18 your parent has to co-sign on any deals/trades? :P
have we had that many trades that have went south that something like this has to be installed?
just asking.........
i am one of the older gh'rs here and knowing that probably we have more gh'rs under 18 than over will be tough- easy to flub ur age
understand ur thinking though. i don't believe i have traded or purchased anything from somebody that is under 18?
do agree that with the amount of money, etc. that is being thrown around here something a little house keeping would not hurt, but we all buy and sell knowing the risk
i know when i first came here there was some gb's that went south and to my knowledge those people never recouped their items or funds
heck put up a wall of shame so others can see if it gets that bad........
i vote spamray sheriff........deputy dog :p
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I don't agree to this on the one basis that we have to take a selfie.
Well perhaps a rule that if your under 18 your parent has to co-sign on any deals/trades? :P
have we had that many trades that have went south that something like this has to be installed?
just asking.........
i am one of the older gh'rs here and knowing that probably we have more gh'rs under 18 than over will be tough- easy to flub ur age
understand ur thinking though. i don't believe i have traded or purchased anything from somebody that is under 18?
do agree that with the amount of money, etc. that is being thrown around here something a little house keeping would not hurt, but we all buy and sell knowing the risk
i know when i first came here there was some gb's that went south and to my knowledge those people never recouped their items or funds
heck put up a wall of shame so others can see if it gets that bad........
i vote spamray sheriff........deputy dog :p
Hey are we old farts the minority for real?
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The moderators are here to moderate based on rules of conduct--we do not mediate any sales or trades, as stated clearly in the Classifieds. It sounds like what you really want is eBay. eBay has strict rules as well as people paid by eBay to look through listings, codes that parse through listings for any inconsistencies, insurance, and a big team of lawyers. You pay for all that by giving eBay some of your profit money as a Final Value Fee, but you get that security. We are volunteers, people like you, with jobs and other tasks. And frankly--even beyond us having to spend a lot of time checking some dedicated email and vetting photos and what not--that's too much legal responsibility, as we could end up being caught up in some dispute as involved parties--not any moderator or administrator's dream because someone didn't do their due diligence or didn't contact PayPal in time.
P.S.: We are working on the new Classifieds Rules that will require some of what you listed. Hopefully to be released soon.
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I don't agree to this on the one basis that we have to take a selfie.
Well perhaps a rule that if your under 18 your parent has to co-sign on any deals/trades? :P
have we had that many trades that have went south that something like this has to be installed?
just asking.........
i am one of the older gh'rs here and knowing that probably we have more gh'rs under 18 than over will be tough- easy to flub ur age
understand ur thinking though. i don't believe i have traded or purchased anything from somebody that is under 18?
do agree that with the amount of money, etc. that is being thrown around here something a little house keeping would not hurt, but we all buy and sell knowing the risk
i know when i first came here there was some gb's that went south and to my knowledge those people never recouped their items or funds
heck put up a wall of shame so others can see if it gets that bad........
i vote spamray sheriff........deputy dog :p
I'm 16 and none of my sales have gone south. Every single one has been shipped the next day, and I have not yet had an unhappy buyer here on GH. I've even done a couple international ships and while they were a PITA, they all arrived at the person's doorstep.
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selfie was the most recent webster approved word added to the english language, hell my mom is almost 70 and she just took a selfie!
i wouldn't say this should be required, just that if one party is like "hey... i'mma gonna trade you my $100 keyboard for your $10 clickclack, which we both value at $100... let's go take some selfie pics, and follow these rules"
why not?
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P.S.: We are working on the new Classifieds Rules that will require some of what you listed. Hopefully to be released soon.
oh cool, i think the unaffiliated@gmail idea is cool, i came up with that while shoveling 8ft of snow and freeing my car!
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They do not include that idea for the reasons I listed above.
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selfie was the most recent webster approved word added to the english language, hell my mom is almost 70 and she just took a selfie!
i wouldn't say this should be required, just that if one party is like "hey... i'mma gonna trade you my $100 keyboard for your $10 clickclack, which we both value at $100... let's go take some selfie pics, and follow these rules"
why not?
I shouldn't be forced to take a fing pic of myself and send it to someone just to sell a $3 doubleshot cap. I like the caveat empatour rule better, if you're willing to sell your board to someone that you don't fully trust, then don't. You don't have to sell it.
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Best way to protect yourself? Only deal with trustworthy people, especially if a lot of money is on the line. Geekhack, just like any other tech site with a classifieds section, can't take responsibility.
Simple and plain, don't deal with someone you don't trust, especially in trades. Also, gifting money, don't do it unless you seriously trust the person. I don't think it's insulting to the seller if you want some sort of protection in the sale.
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Best way to protect yourself? Only deal with trustworthy people, especially if a lot of money is on the line. Geekhack, just like any other tech site with a classifieds section, can't take responsibility.
Simple and plain, don't deal with someone you don't trust, especially in trades. Also, gifting money, don't do it unless you seriously trust the person. I don't think it's insulting to the seller if you want some sort of protection in the sale.
+1. My personal rule is if you have a small post count and/or haven't been here a while, its gift only. Too much risk unless its a gift. And when I buy stuff I don't mind losing, I pay by gift, but with stuff I know there's a chance of going south I do regular payment. But still, it doesn't reduce the risk to 0. Best option is only dealing with reptuable sellers.
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Thing is, how do you know if you can trust someone or not? I guess one way to look at it is post count or years in GH as a rule of thumb. But there could be someone like AvJab who was here long and had a good number of post who still scammed so I think the Wall of Shame is a good idea. Stickie a post in Classified as Wall of Shame and let people go there to research the seller/buyer and couple with their own judgement base on post count and years in GH.
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I don't agree to this on the one basis that we have to take a selfie.
Well perhaps a rule that if your under 18 your parent has to co-sign on any deals/trades? :P
have we had that many trades that have went south that something like this has to be installed?
just asking.........
i am one of the older gh'rs here and knowing that probably we have more gh'rs under 18 than over will be tough- easy to flub ur age
understand ur thinking though. i don't believe i have traded or purchased anything from somebody that is under 18?
do agree that with the amount of money, etc. that is being thrown around here something a little house keeping would not hurt, but we all buy and sell knowing the risk
i know when i first came here there was some gb's that went south and to my knowledge those people never recouped their items or funds
heck put up a wall of shame so others can see if it gets that bad........
i vote spamray sheriff........deputy dog :p
Hey are we old farts the minority for real?
sadly.............i believe we be the minority here
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Thing is, how do you know if you can trust someone or not? I guess one way to look at it is post count or years in GH as a rule of thumb. But there could be someone like AvJab who was here long and had a good number of post who still scammed so I think the Wall of Shame is a good idea. Stickie a post in Classified as Wall of Shame and let people go there to research the seller/buyer and couple with their own judgement base on post count and years in GH.
yea. AvJab has been here a while, but he doesn't post that much. So I guess in those situations you should be wary. But wall of shame isn't neccessary, pretty sure in the replies there will be people warning others that the OP is a scammer.
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I don't agree to this on the one basis that we have to take a selfie.
Well perhaps a rule that if your under 18 your parent has to co-sign on any deals/trades? :P
have we had that many trades that have went south that something like this has to be installed?
just asking.........
i am one of the older gh'rs here and knowing that probably we have more gh'rs under 18 than over will be tough- easy to flub ur age
understand ur thinking though. i don't believe i have traded or purchased anything from somebody that is under 18?
do agree that with the amount of money, etc. that is being thrown around here something a little house keeping would not hurt, but we all buy and sell knowing the risk
i know when i first came here there was some gb's that went south and to my knowledge those people never recouped their items or funds
heck put up a wall of shame so others can see if it gets that bad........
i vote spamray sheriff........deputy dog :p
I'm 16 and none of my sales have gone south. Every single one has been shipped the next day, and I have not yet had an unhappy buyer here on GH. I've even done a couple international ships and while they were a PITA, they all arrived at the person's doorstep.
hand salute........that's what i'm talking 'bout :thumb:
kudo's
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maybe not a wall of shame, but a section dedicated to "calling someone out"
the offended party will call out the other party and post relevant (non personal) information, and if that person hasn't responded in 7 days then that post will be left up there.
otherwise if that person has respond, then that post will be deleted.
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Best way to protect yourself? Only deal with trustworthy people, especially if a lot of money is on the line. Geekhack, just like any other tech site with a classifieds section, can't take responsibility.
Simple and plain, don't deal with someone you don't trust, especially in trades. Also, gifting money, don't do it unless you seriously trust the person. I don't think it's insulting to the seller if you want some sort of protection in the sale.
exactly
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maybe not a wall of shame, but a section dedicated to "calling someone out"
the offended party will call out the other party and post relevant (non personal) information, and if that person hasn't responded in 7 days then that post will be left up there.
otherwise if that person has respond, then that post will be deleted.
i like it.........
whatever we want to call it..........kind of like getting your picture hung in the post office for a while
.........or am i being to old and nobody knows what i am talking about?
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even young scammers will probably use a PO box, so i think you're good on being relevant.
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maybe not a wall of shame, but a section dedicated to "calling someone out"
the offended party will call out the other party and post relevant (non personal) information, and if that person hasn't responded in 7 days then that post will be left up there.
otherwise if that person has respond, then that post will be deleted.
I was talking about something very similar to this with someone today.
I get PM'ed about crappy sellers all the time.
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I don't agree to this on the one basis that we have to take a selfie.
Well perhaps a rule that if your under 18 your parent has to co-sign on any deals/trades? :P
Then I'll just go to ebay to sell my **** and just deal with their fees.
Sounds like a good plan to me.
To be honest, having open trades (like in the classifides forum) is a privelige. No-one is making (or even encouraging) it's use. Having good rules in place makes sense, and having an agreed-upon method for safe trades is always a good idea. Even if we don't (or can't) enforce such a restriction on trading, it is a good idea to have one.
We could even call it something short, so people can say things like: WTT crazy keycaps. OGHT (Original Geek Hack Trade) only, so people will know what it means.
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We could even call it something short, so people can say things like: WTT crazy keycaps. OGHT (Original Geek Hack Trade) only, so people will know what it means.
GHSP (GeekHack Selfie Protection)
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maybe not a wall of shame, but a section dedicated to "calling someone out"
the offended party will call out the other party and post relevant (non personal) information, and if that person hasn't responded in 7 days then that post will be left up there.
otherwise if that person has respond, then that post will be deleted.
I was talking about something very similar to this with someone today.
I get PM'ed about crappy sellers all the time.
since our moderators have another life and not to bear down on them with more responsibilities i don't see anything wrong with having a section that will help keep the weeds out that we all can be included in watching and police. if a deal goes bad somewhat like ebay to an extent warn the seller, buyer, trader, vender.........whatever that you are going to post him to the whatever we call it thread for unpaid, not shipped, agreed to transaction, etc. and we can move on
there is something called common sense and i think this or something ilike it whatever or whoever decides is just common sense. we're not talking about any age limits, selfie (or whatever that is), timeouts and so on.
having some kind of a checks and balance for safe trades, transactions where money is involved will only create a favorable environment that will be equal for everybody
given that if you put in place a 7 day period (per lanx- as an example) for the person to respond might create a peyton place, but at least we can run him/her off first chance before they get to someone else
dorkvader is right in that it would be hard to enforce restrictions, etc., but having something, anything in place is better than nothing
hpe1000 is right............i am not to kean on gifting transactions unless the person is already established and been here a while, especially overseas transactions..........no pun intended
as far as moderators though............we could set up a special moderator where there territory would focus on exactly what we are talking about if the thread gets out of hand so as to not impose on the others, so they can lay the lumber.
there has to be someone- the queen bee if you will to keep all the workers going in the right direction
i don't expect everybody to agree, but we should be able to pick enough brains to get something working and in place for the benefit of the whole
i'm very fond of this forum and like spamray was saying am tired of hearing people get ripped off without at least some kind of consequence. a lot of our members here are young, in school, do not have a lot of cash and some kind of checks and balance needs to be placed and enforced
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It's not just about the time. It's about legal liability. We do not get involved in other people's transactions for that reason. The transactions are between the people trading stuff. As previously mentioned, if you want protection, use other sites that offer it--and you usually pay for that protection.
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I don't agree to this on the one basis that we have to take a selfie.
Well perhaps a rule that if your under 18 your parent has to co-sign on any deals/trades? :P
boom boom boom :))
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Actually right now I need protection from myself as I'm about to buy another topre board I don't need :D
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It's not just about the time. It's about legal liability. We do not get involved in other people's transactions for that reason. The transactions are between the people trading stuff. As previously mentioned, if you want protection, use other sites that offer it--and you usually pay for that protection.
+1
Just trade with people who have heat /solved
Actually right now I need protection from myself as I'm about to buy another topre board I don't need :D
ROFL!!!
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i'll be the middle man for all trades.
just send all the stuff you want to trade to me.
i'll check it for authenticity, but be warned there is a 6 month waiting period.
BUT I AM LEGIT.
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i'll be the middle man for all trades.
just send all the stuff you want to trade to me.
i'll check it for authenticity, but be warned there is a 6 month waiting period.**
BUT I AM LEGIT.
**meanwhile demik opens up an ebay store selling keyboard goods
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what legal liability are you referring to
alerting others in the forum that someone balked on them, so we know to stay away-- i do not understand the legal liability you are referring to-- i disagree
i do agree that the transaction is between the 2 parties involved, but we're all involved when we start getting ripped off
when we say people trading stuff...........its way MORE than that. some of these clacks sales are through the roof. i don't care what anybody says we have people that just show up for clacks and very little of anything else. i know a couple people over DT have been a little hard to find over there after receiving funds on item and not shipping yet.
the only protection that is being suggested is just alerting others that a particular party balked on them and if no moderators are involved we can police ourselves
heat is great, but that is in a perfect world
i would think something of this sort might be somewhat of an edge to keep people more honest?
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what legal liability are you referring to
alerting others in the forum that someone balked on them, so we know to stay away-- i do not understand the legal liability you are referring to-- i disagree
i do agree that the transaction is between the 2 parties involved, but we're all involved when we start getting ripped off
when we say people trading stuff...........its way MORE than that. some of these clacks sales are through the roof. i don't care what anybody says we have people that just show up for clacks and very little of anything else. i know a couple people over DT have been a little hard to find over there after receiving funds on item and not shipping yet.
the only protection that is being suggested is just alerting others that a particular party balked on them and if no moderators are involved we can police ourselves
heat is great, but that is in a perfect world
i would think something of this sort might be somewhat of an edge to keep people more honest?
Seriously dude, the mods have said their piece. No amount of arguing is going to get them to start a blacklist.
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what legal liability are you referring to
alerting others in the forum that someone balked on them, so we know to stay away-- i do not understand the legal liability you are referring to-- i disagree
i do agree that the transaction is between the 2 parties involved, but we're all involved when we start getting ripped off
when we say people trading stuff...........its way MORE than that. some of these clacks sales are through the roof. i don't care what anybody says we have people that just show up for clacks and very little of anything else. i know a couple people over DT have been a little hard to find over there after receiving funds on item and not shipping yet.
the only protection that is being suggested is just alerting others that a particular party balked on them and if no moderators are involved we can police ourselves
heat is great, but that is in a perfect world
i would think something of this sort might be somewhat of an edge to keep people more honest?
Seriously dude, the mods have said their piece. No amount of arguing is going to get them to start a blacklist.
That doesn't mean someone else can't start a thread that people can post if if they are having problems.
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what legal liability are you referring to
alerting others in the forum that someone balked on them, so we know to stay away-- i do not understand the legal liability you are referring to-- i disagree
i do agree that the transaction is between the 2 parties involved, but we're all involved when we start getting ripped off
when we say people trading stuff...........its way MORE than that. some of these clacks sales are through the roof. i don't care what anybody says we have people that just show up for clacks and very little of anything else. i know a couple people over DT have been a little hard to find over there after receiving funds on item and not shipping yet.
the only protection that is being suggested is just alerting others that a particular party balked on them and if no moderators are involved we can police ourselves
heat is great, but that is in a perfect world
i would think something of this sort might be somewhat of an edge to keep people more honest?
Seriously dude, the mods have said their piece. No amount of arguing is going to get them to start a blacklist.
That doesn't mean someone else can't start a thread that people can post if if they are having problems.
I was under the impression they said they'd close it if someone did.
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what legal liability are you referring to
alerting others in the forum that someone balked on them, so we know to stay away-- i do not understand the legal liability you are referring to-- i disagree
i do agree that the transaction is between the 2 parties involved, but we're all involved when we start getting ripped off
when we say people trading stuff...........its way MORE than that. some of these clacks sales are through the roof. i don't care what anybody says we have people that just show up for clacks and very little of anything else. i know a couple people over DT have been a little hard to find over there after receiving funds on item and not shipping yet.
the only protection that is being suggested is just alerting others that a particular party balked on them and if no moderators are involved we can police ourselves
heat is great, but that is in a perfect world
i would think something of this sort might be somewhat of an edge to keep people more honest?
Seriously dude, the mods have said their piece. No amount of arguing is going to get them to start a blacklist.
That doesn't mean someone else can't start a thread that people can post if if they are having problems.
I was under the impression they said they'd close it if someone did.
So long as personal info is left out and it doesn't digress into a hate fest is not against any rules.
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Also I know group buys fall under the 'your on your own' category also but it seems like more and more group buys are not ending well.
Perhaps there could be some rules put in place in that area as well.
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After consulting someone who is an actual real life lawyer (teehee), I'd like to ask for no official or unofficial "scammer lists" hosted on GeekHack.org, please (this is also for the related thread that came up at the same time about a scammer). Continue to exercise the "Caveat Emptor" clause and do your due diligence in researching the people you conduct trades with. There are tools like heatware, eBay feedback you can request, etc. If uncertain and can't afford to lose money--just don't deal with a person you are uncertain in. Or buy from authorized resellers.
We will post the new Classifieds rules soon, and hopefully they will be to your liking.
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After consulting someone who is an actual real life lawyer (teehee), I'd like to ask for no official or unofficial "scammer lists" hosted on GeekHack.org, please (this is also for the related thread that came up at the same time about a scammer). Continue to exercise the "Caveat Emptor" clause and do your due diligence in researching the people you conduct trades with. There are tools like heatware, eBay feedback you can request, etc. If uncertain and can't afford to lose money--just don't deal with a person you are uncertain in. Or buy from authorized resellers.
We will post the new Classifieds rules soon, and hopefully they will be to your liking.
Can individual users still post personal experiences in dealing with people? I mean, some people appear to be good members but are fairly deadbeat sellers, so it'd be nice if the people who deal with them and have a negative experience could at least express that to save the rest of us a headache.
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That seems reasonable to me, as long as it's that individual user posting their own personal experience about another user.
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Scammers are usually identified fairly quickly around here.
True -- and the responsible, low-risk organizers are also easy to spot, if you check. Caveat emptor, baby.
I'm still in favor of a bare minimum PayPal authenticity check whilst making a very, very nominal donation to GH as an entrance to the Classifieds. Then at least the seller and buyer can be verified as each having a PayPal account, and PayPal can handle any disputes. Also, it would keep children out of the Classified section. GH makes a small improvement to security, risks nothing, and makes a little money to keep the hamster wheel that runs the server turning.
Taking selfies and compiling dossiers on users -- yeah, that's going to kill Classifieds. It's probably easier to just spam 60 posts. :thumb:
After consulting someone who is an actual real life lawyer (teehee),
Standard points:
1. Stay inside the circle. The lawyer can do whatever it wants once you're outside the circle.
2. Don't cross the streams.
3. Never let the lawyer know your true name; that gives them power over you.
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Also, it would keep children out of the Classified section.
If they can lie and get an ebay account I'm sure they can lie/steal whatever to get a paypal account.
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Also, it would keep children out of the Classified section.
If they can lie and get an ebay account I'm sure they can lie/steal whatever to get a paypal account.
Ok, I'll amend my statement and say it would be harder for children to get into Classifieds, but not impossible. They would have to be lying, cheating, stealing children to get into Classifieds. But doesn't PayPal have some controls for this, perhaps? When you sign up for a GH account, it's free. When you decide you want to use Classifieds, you must link your PayPal email to the account. Then, in the event of an issue, GH can at least provide the relevant emails to both parties.
EDIT: Or, require a heatware account, which seem to work. Maybe there's a paid service similar to heatware?
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Also, it would keep children out of the Classified section.
If they can lie and get an ebay account I'm sure they can lie/steal whatever to get a paypal account.
Ok, I'll amend my statement and say it would be harder for children to get into Classifieds, but not impossible. They would have to be lying, cheating, stealing children to get into Classifieds. But doesn't PayPal have some controls for this, perhaps? When you sign up for a GH account, it's free. When you decide you want to use Classifieds, you must link your PayPal email to the account. Then, in the event of an issue, GH can at least provide the relevant emails to both parties.
EDIT: Or, require a heatware account, which seem to work. Maybe there's a paid service similar to heatware?
Problem with heatware is no one ever leaves feedback :(
But new classified rules are coming, not holding my breath they will be any better but we will see.
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Also, it would keep children out of the Classified section.
If they can lie and get an ebay account I'm sure they can lie/steal whatever to get a paypal account.
Ok, I'll amend my statement and say it would be harder for children to get into Classifieds, but not impossible. They would have to be lying, cheating, stealing children to get into Classifieds. But doesn't PayPal have some controls for this, perhaps? When you sign up for a GH account, it's free. When you decide you want to use Classifieds, you must link your PayPal email to the account. Then, in the event of an issue, GH can at least provide the relevant emails to both parties.
EDIT: Or, require a heatware account, which seem to work. Maybe there's a paid service similar to heatware?
Problem with heatware is no one ever leaves feedback :(
But new classified rules are coming, not holding my breath they will be any better but we will see.
Have some faith, friend.
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Also, it would keep children out of the Classified section.
If they can lie and get an ebay account I'm sure they can lie/steal whatever to get a paypal account.
Ok, I'll amend my statement and say it would be harder for children to get into Classifieds, but not impossible. They would have to be lying, cheating, stealing children to get into Classifieds. But doesn't PayPal have some controls for this, perhaps? When you sign up for a GH account, it's free. When you decide you want to use Classifieds, you must link your PayPal email to the account. Then, in the event of an issue, GH can at least provide the relevant emails to both parties.
EDIT: Or, require a heatware account, which seem to work. Maybe there's a paid service similar to heatware?
Problem with heatware is no one ever leaves feedback :(
But new classified rules are coming, not holding my breath they will be any better but we will see.
Have some faith, friend.
Somebody has to be the pessimist :p :D
And I don't have as much an issue with new sellers as much as I do with people who have been here a while who are just deadbeat sellers ::)
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Problem with heatware is no one ever leaves feedback :(
But new classified rules are coming, not holding my breath they will be any better but we will see.
Somebody has to be the pessimist :p :D
Instead of perpetual *****ing maybe you should be a little more proactive. Grumbling doesn't solve anything. You want Heatware, ask for Heatware. You want better a classifieds experience? Conduct your business in the way you would want others to do so and hold others accountable to your example. Don't like how someone is doing something? Don't deal with them.
This thread needs more move making and less ****ing whining.
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Here is an easier solution. Only trade with people you know/trust.
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Exactly.
1. demand Heatware / other sources of feedback
2. look at people's post history to see how they are presenting themselves on the forum
3. go through the transactions in a very professional manner, and do everything that PayPal recommends to protect yourself (like only shipping to confirmed addresses, etc.)
4. take responsibility for your own decisions and money
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Exactly.
1. demand Heatware / other sources of feedback
2. look at people's post history to see how they are presenting themselves on the forum
3. go through the transactions in a very professional manner, and do everything that PayPal recommends to protect yourself (like only shipping to confirmed addresses, etc.)
4. take responsibility for your own decisions and money
5. WWJDD?
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Problem with heatware is no one ever leaves feedback :(
But new classified rules are coming, not holding my breath they will be any better but we will see.
Somebody has to be the pessimist :p :D
Instead of perpetual *****ing maybe you should be a little more proactive. Grumbling doesn't solve anything. You want Heatware, ask for Heatware. You want better a classifieds experience? Conduct your business in the way you would want others to do so and hold others accountable to your example. Don't like how someone is doing something? Don't deal with them.
This thread needs more move making and less ****ing whining.
The problem is the moves I want to make will get deleted and threads disappeared because we can't post about deadbeats so they will continue behind the scenes, believe me I've actually tried to think of a way to go about it that would be helpful and beneficial but it just isn't coming together.
Bro if you only saw some of the pm's I've gotten from people asking for help because they are getting screwed over by people. Why do I care, its not my problem right? Because it shouldn't have to be that way and at the end of the day I can't do anything about it because the rules are "Caveat Emptor".
I want this place to be a community where we can trust each other but there are some people here who don't deserve to be trusted and they will NEVER get my business but that does absolutely no good for the people who have dealt with them because there is no outlet for people to say, 'This guy really sucks at this, probably shouldn't deal with him." Although it doesn't stop me from pm'ing people and letting them now the situation which I have done a few times to warn potential victims.
So while it may not be much I am doing what I feel like I can within the given bounds, I do not apologize for whining or being negative because for all those out there being ignored and losing their moneys there isn't anything to be positive about and people need to be aware its not all roses.
Exactly.
1. demand Heatware / other sources of feedback
2. look at people's post history to see how they are presenting themselves on the forum
3. go through the transactions in a very professional manner, and do everything that PayPal recommends to protect yourself (like only shipping to confirmed addresses, etc.)
4. take responsibility for your own decisions and money
5. WWJDD?
Get their address and mail them poop?
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The problem is the moves I want to make will get deleted and threads disappeared because we can't post about deadbeats so they will continue behind the scenes, believe me I've actually tried to think of a way to go about it that would be helpful and beneficial but it just isn't coming together.
You *think* they'll be deleted. Make the threads/posts and see what happens.
Bro if you only saw some of the pm's I've gotten from people asking for help because they are getting screwed over by people. Why do I care, its not my problem right? Because it shouldn't have to be that way and at the end of the day I can't do anything about it because the rules are "Caveat Emptor".
So I don't care either?
I want this place to be a community where we can trust each other but there are some people here who don't deserve to be trusted and they will NEVER get my business but that does absolutely no good for the people who have dealt with them because there is no outlet for people to say, 'This guy really sucks at this, probably shouldn't deal with him." Although it doesn't stop me from pm'ing people and letting them now the situation which I have done a few times to warn potential victims.
So while it may not be much I am doing what I feel like I can within the given bounds, I do not apologize for whining or being negative because for all those out there being ignored and losing their moneys there isn't anything to be positive about and people need to be aware its not all roses.
I would like this too but unfortunately that's not the reality of the situation.
Being whiny doesn't solve an issue. You just assume that there's no changes coming. What if there is and you just don't know about it yet? What if I told you I've seen the new changes to the rules? What if you spent more time trying to be constructive and not be negative and whine? How has that worked out so far?
All I'm saying is instead of being so pessimistic, let's try and come up with some constructive feedback. Being passive aggressive and sarcastic doesn't seem to be working.
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You just assume that there's no changes coming. What if there is and you just don't know about it yet? What if I told you I've seen the new changes to the rules?
Well since photoelectric and jdcarpe have told me changes are coming I know they are and if they had anything to do with them, yes I trust they will be beneficial. However that isn't helping people get keyboards other people are holding hostage. >:D
AND good for you for seeing those changes :thumb:
[attachimg=1]
^^ here's my positivity for the day.
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keyboards other people are holding hostage. >:D
How can ANY changes we implement help with that? No amount of reasonable changes will help with that. Only legal disputes conducted outside of GH (with credit card companies of involved parties, with PayPal, local courts, etc.) might help in those cases.
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keyboards other people are holding hostage. >:D
How can ANY changes we implement help with that? No amount of reasonable changes will help with that. Only legal disputes conducted outside of GH (with credit card companies of involved parties, with PayPal, local courts, etc.) might help in those cases.
Well I think if the victim felt they would be supported they would post a thread letting people know what is happening. Usually when reputation is publicly on the line people do the right thing.
Hence my trying to think of a proper way to have a thread where people would feel like they could air it out so to speak but clearly that isn't going to happen.
But another problem and I believe I said it already but I'll repeat it, people get scared to publicly say anything because they think it will be locked or deleted, it is a perception thing.
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It should go into those people's Heatware profiles. We need to have more people utilizing Heatware.
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It should go into those people's Heatware profiles. We need to have more people utilizing Heatware.
Ya. More people should use it. It's super easy.
I recently went to give positive feedback for a few people only to realize they are not on HW. Too bad cause then they can't give me feedback either.
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Make Geekhack's own trading system. A lot of forums have that..
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Make Geekhack's own trading system. A lot of forums have that..
Can't at the moment. Software limitations. iTrader is I think vBulletin-based. We're on SMF. I've already brought it up a few times.
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keyboards other people are holding hostage. >:D
How can ANY changes we implement help with that? No amount of reasonable changes will help with that. Only legal disputes conducted outside of GH (with credit card companies of involved parties, with PayPal, local courts, etc.) might help in those cases.
Well I think if the victim felt they would be supported they would post a thread letting people know what is happening. Usually when reputation is publicly on the line people do the right thing.
Hence my trying to think of a proper way to have a thread where people would feel like they could air it out so to speak but clearly that isn't going to happen.
But another problem and I believe I said it already but I'll repeat it, people get scared to publicly say anything because they think it will be locked or deleted, it is a perception thing.
And it's a false one based on a small number of cases that devolved into pettiness, personal attacks and *****iness. Sherryton gets a thread a month asking about things and they stay just fine. So have many of the other threads for other people in the same vein.
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The anonymity allows for the fraud, in my opinion. We could all be anonymous to one another, but the owners of GH could actually know who everyone was. That seeems reasonable. The owners could hand out the identities of aggrieved parties in the event of a dispute. And if someone behaves badly (some buyers do it, too) they should not be able to just create a new handle, and go back about their business. If a bad reputation followed you, people would be more careful.
How to achieve a little less anonymity? I'm not sure.
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I'm pretty sure we should link GH and Facebook account :))
But in reality I'm not sure, Spam's ideas make sense to me, I think the problem is (the point spams trying to make) that even if I know "x" is a scammer how does a new member know that?
But legal reasons get in the way apparently, so that can't be done. (Although I have no idea what reasons would stop you burning someones online alias) Interest to see what is implemented!
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You're really not allowed to mark people as scammers on the internet?
This website http://steamrep.com/ is based 100% on identifying and marking people as scammers. Interesting
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You're really not allowed to mark people as scammers on the internet?
This website http://steamrep.com/ is based 100% on identifying and marking people as scammers. Interesting
Would I be right in saying that no real life details are exchanged or posted on SteamRep, just Steam account information?
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Make Geekhack's own trading system. A lot of forums have that..
Can't at the moment. Software limitations. iTrader is I think vBulletin-based. We're on SMF. I've already brought it up a few times.
What about this?
SMF Classifieds Mod: http://www.smfhacks.com/smf-classifieds.php -- available now for the low, low price of $79!
SMF Trader System Mod: http://mods.simplemachines.org/index.php?mod=346
The Trader System looks like an integrated heatware system. People can leave comments, etc. and it lists the number of trades that have occurred. To me that would at least give people the basic tools to be more responsible. And because it would be integrated, people would be more likely to use it. Maybe these mods won't work, I don't know, but here they are. The Classified Mod looks like it would (at the very least) make the Classified section neater, nicer, more orderly.
There was a thread a while back talking about GH having some discretionary dinero -- maybe a forum upgrade would be a good investment.
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also it's not that you're not "allowed" to call someone a scammer, go ahead. the problem arises when someone views this in a legal manner. someone could say, "defamation of character" and sue GH. Yes they'd target GH, b/c why?
1. they can
2. it's being hosted on GH
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Heatware is crap. More screen names and passwords.
We need to bring back our feedback subforum.
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also it's not that you're not "allowed" to call someone a scammer, go ahead. the problem arises when someone views this in a legal manner. someone could say, "defamation of character" and sue GH. Yes they'd target GH, b/c why?
1. they can
2. it's being hosted on GH
Update the TOS to prevent this. GH is not responsible for statements made by its users, and the TOS will also require that users lodging a complaint must do so in a formal, non-defamatory way.
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Heatware is crap. More screen names and passwords.
We need to bring back our feedback subforum.
Head-fi did this for a while and it wasn't too bad, though if you lost the link to your thread it could be somewhat hard to find again if you posted a lot.
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Heatware is crap. More screen names and passwords.
We need to bring back our feedback subforum.
Head-fi did this for a while and it wasn't too bad, though if you lost the link to your thread it could be somewhat hard to find again if you posted a lot.
Headfi and OCN are both running on huddler and have both a marketplace feedback/rep and an normal post rep system. Both of those really help distinguish a helpful trustworthy member in my opinion. The rep to show that they aren't simply spamming posts everywhere, but are actually helping out people or posting useful information. And the marketplace feedback for obvious reasons.
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Heatware is crap. More screen names and passwords.
We need to bring back our feedback subforum.
Head-fi did this for a while and it wasn't too bad, though if you lost the link to your thread it could be somewhat hard to find again if you posted a lot.
^^ yes I remember those days :/
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Heatware is crap. More screen names and passwords.
We need to bring back our feedback subforum.
Head-fi did this for a while and it wasn't too bad, though if you lost the link to your thread it could be somewhat hard to find again if you posted a lot.
Headfi and OCN are both running on huddler and have both a marketplace feedback/rep and an normal post rep system. Both of those really help distinguish a helpful trustworthy member in my opinion. The rep to show that they aren't simply spamming posts everywhere, but are actually helping out people or posting useful information. And the marketplace feedback for obvious reasons.
I wasn't referring to the current implementation, which is pretty good as it is. Before (I forget how many years ago), you'd have a feedback thread in a feedback subforum of the classifieds where people could post their transactions with you. There was no positive or negative feedback, just people posting their experiences, which was pretty good if you wanted more information than just a positive or negative. Also, people could discuss negative experiences and compare with others if they needed to without cluttering up the rest of the forum (I remember one guy who scammed people by selling one item multiple times, and people found out by someone posting in his feedback thread ahead of time).
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Is there any feedback system on GH? For example, when sales/trades are complete do users normally add a comment to a profile page or something similar to have some record of feedback?
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Lets say someone here actually goes through with some sort of legal action against another member on geekhack; like really take it to the next level this time--we almost had this happen with Profisist recently. Paypal's arbitration rules that you agree to in your terms of service basically prevents you from almost all instances of bringing them into court. Printed out copies of your bank statements and emails and pms do not fly in litigation; sure, you can bring the documents into court but they can be requested thrown out because they do not come directly from paypal, or your bank (the document's "chain of custody" unbroken). Geekhack, by declaring that all transactions are CAVEAT EMPTOR and declaring no responsibility, is preventing itself from being brought into a **** storm.
Some may be demanding that geekhack start intervening in these transactions, but unless we want to have the admin/owner (iMav?) giving depositions and our personal information by court order, i highly suggest geekhack stay as far away as possible from direct intervention in group buys and classifieds. Geekhack should continue to declare no responsibility in these transactions.
Although i am not an attorney, i work in litigation support and early case assessment. i essentially work everyday for lawyers. But I am just giving my opinion and not speaking professionally.
Now i have no idea if having a feedback system or hall of shame cancels out legally geekhack's declaration of no responsibility--i still would suggest against it. This system would undoubtedly have to be moderated and if a moderator makes any changes that means that moderator made a decision against or for a certain party. The same thing goes for a hall of shame; as soon as a moderator takes any action in such topic, that means that moderator made a decision against or for a specific party and in my eyes that is intervention. For example one party shares personal info about the other party for everyone to see, geekhack does damage control and takes that information off which prevents a whole other legal problem but that action could be considered intervention and siding with a party in some little way. Basically im saying that anything geekhack does that would break its own terms of service would hurt that terms of service to still be valid legally.
if Photoelectric is saying that a actual lawyer is essentially saying don't do ___ , then yeah i would say yeah not a good idea.
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Make Geekhack's own trading system. A lot of forums have that..
Can't at the moment. Software limitations. iTrader is I think vBulletin-based. We're on SMF. I've already brought it up a few times.
What about this?
SMF Classifieds Mod: http://www.smfhacks.com/smf-classifieds.php -- available now for the low, low price of $79!
SMF Trader System Mod: http://mods.simplemachines.org/index.php?mod=346
The Trader System looks like an integrated heatware system. People can leave comments, etc. and it lists the number of trades that have occurred. To me that would at least give people the basic tools to be more responsible. And because it would be integrated, people would be more likely to use it. Maybe these mods won't work, I don't know, but here they are. The Classified Mod looks like it would (at the very least) make the Classified section neater, nicer, more orderly.
There was a thread a while back talking about GH having some discretionary dinero -- maybe a forum upgrade would be a good investment.
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I still don't understand why we shouldn't have a sticky in the Classy's that lists the username with the link next to the classified post that went sour. Something is better than nothing and it would help the community.
e.g. - shadyseller name (or buyer): post url
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I still don't understand why we shouldn't have a sticky in the Classy's that lists the username with the link next to the classified post that went sour. Something is better than nothing and it would help the community.
e.g. - shadyseller name (or buyer): post url
The reason is quite simple: any thread hosted by GeekHack, even if not managed by GeekHack, that correlates even usernames with "scammer" opens GeekHack up to potential libel lawsuits.
Consider the following hypothetical scenario: In an expensive transaction unrelated to GeekHack, Party A is doing their due diligence on Party B. In doing so, Party A comes across the thread you're suggesting, labeling Party B as untrustworthy. Party A therefore decides not to do business with Party B. Party B now has a case against GeekHack that this thread negatively impacted them in a very real way.
This is blown a bit out of proportion, but these types of issues are things that GeekHack absolutely wants to avoid.
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I still don't understand why we shouldn't have a sticky in the Classy's that lists the username with the link next to the classified post that went sour. Something is better than nothing and it would help the community.
e.g. - shadyseller name (or buyer): post url
The reason is quite simple: any thread hosted by GeekHack, even if not managed by GeekHack, that correlates even usernames with "scammer" opens GeekHack up to potential libel lawsuits.
Consider the following hypothetical scenario: In an expensive transaction unrelated to GeekHack, Party A is doing their due diligence on Party B. In doing so, Party A comes across the thread you're suggesting, labeling Party B as untrustworthy. Party A therefore decides not to do business with Party B. Party B now has a case against GeekHack that this thread negatively impacted them in a very real way.
This is blown a bit out of proportion, but these types of issues are things that GeekHack absolutely wants to avoid.
ah, that sucks. guess i'll just have to keep my personal blacklist updated.
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Can't we have a thread of "outstanding SUPER traders who are the best and wouldn't scam you in the slightest" thread? We would all know what that thread REALLY entails
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Can't we have a thread of "outstanding SUPER traders who are the best and wouldn't scam you in the slightest" thread? We would all know what that thread REALLY entails
That could entail risk, too -- what if one of those "safe" traders makes a mistake, or actually tries to scam someone? Then GH would be on the hook for recommending them. Still, I think the TOS protects GH from legal responsibility, so it's not an issue. An integrated system similar to heatware would not make bad trades vanish entirely, but it would provide users with a tool that they can use to make decisions. The sellers require protection, too, from people who sometimes are willfully obtuse -- they don't understand that sometimes, even with great sellers, **** happens.
An integrated heatware system would at least allow people to see the aggrieved party's name, and (hopefully) in this sort of scenario, see that the person is being unreasonable.
Again, an integrated heatware system would not prevent bad trades, it would just be a tool to help prevent them, or redress them.
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Can't we have a thread of "outstanding SUPER traders who are the best and wouldn't scam you in the slightest" thread? We would all know what that thread REALLY entails
That could entail risk, too -- what if one of those "safe" traders makes a mistake, or actually tries to scam someone? Then GH would be on the hook for recommending them. Still, I think the TOS protects GH from legal responsibility, so it's not an issue. An integrated system similar to heatware would not make bad trades vanish entirely, but it would provide users with a tool that they can use to make decisions. The sellers require protection, too, from people who sometimes are willfully obtuse -- they don't understand that sometimes, even with great sellers, **** happens.
An integrated heatware system would at least allow people to see the aggrieved party's name, and (hopefully) in this sort of scenario, see that the person is being unreasonable.
Again, an integrated heatware system would not prevent bad trades, it would just be a tool to help prevent them, or redress them.
I think I didn't word that right. Basically it's a thread that lists all the scammers but nowhere mentions that they have done any wrong doing. I.e have a thread simply entitled [X] or any other phrase that has nothing to do with "scamming" or "labeling" to the outside world. However the geekhack community would simply know that the thread is listing the names of known scammers through word of mouth. Basically keep the thread locked, email your proof to a mod. The mod then determines if there is enough proof that a member abused or scammed another member, then adds the deviants username or any other alias to the thread. So essentially to the outside world it is just a thread full of usernames.
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Can't we have a thread of "outstanding SUPER traders who are the best and wouldn't scam you in the slightest" thread? We would all know what that thread REALLY entails
That could entail risk, too -- what if one of those "safe" traders makes a mistake, or actually tries to scam someone? Then GH would be on the hook for recommending them. Still, I think the TOS protects GH from legal responsibility, so it's not an issue. An integrated system similar to heatware would not make bad trades vanish entirely, but it would provide users with a tool that they can use to make decisions. The sellers require protection, too, from people who sometimes are willfully obtuse -- they don't understand that sometimes, even with great sellers, **** happens.
An integrated heatware system would at least allow people to see the aggrieved party's name, and (hopefully) in this sort of scenario, see that the person is being unreasonable.
Again, an integrated heatware system would not prevent bad trades, it would just be a tool to help prevent them, or redress them.
I think I didn't word that right. Basically it's a thread that lists all the scammers but nowhere mentions that they have done any wrong doing. I.e have a thread simply entitled [X] or any other phrase that has nothing to do with "scamming" or "labeling" to the outside world. However the geekhack community would simply know that the thread is listing the names of known scammers through word of mouth. Basically keep the thread locked, email your proof to a mod. The mod then determines if there is enough proof that a member abused or scammed another member, then adds the deviants username or any other alias to the thread. So essentially to the outside world it is just a thread full of usernames.
won't work , mod's will not get involved.
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Can't we have a thread of "outstanding SUPER traders who are the best and wouldn't scam you in the slightest" thread? We would all know what that thread REALLY entails
That could entail risk, too -- what if one of those "safe" traders makes a mistake, or actually tries to scam someone? Then GH would be on the hook for recommending them. Still, I think the TOS protects GH from legal responsibility, so it's not an issue. An integrated system similar to heatware would not make bad trades vanish entirely, but it would provide users with a tool that they can use to make decisions. The sellers require protection, too, from people who sometimes are willfully obtuse -- they don't understand that sometimes, even with great sellers, **** happens.
An integrated heatware system would at least allow people to see the aggrieved party's name, and (hopefully) in this sort of scenario, see that the person is being unreasonable.
Again, an integrated heatware system would not prevent bad trades, it would just be a tool to help prevent them, or redress them.
I think I didn't word that right. Basically it's a thread that lists all the scammers but nowhere mentions that they have done any wrong doing. I.e have a thread simply entitled [X] or any other phrase that has nothing to do with "scamming" or "labeling" to the outside world. However the geekhack community would simply know that the thread is listing the names of known scammers through word of mouth. Basically keep the thread locked, email your proof to a mod. The mod then determines if there is enough proof that a member abused or scammed another member, then adds the deviants username or any other alias to the thread. So essentially to the outside world it is just a thread full of usernames.
won't work , mod's will not get involved.
Agreed. I'm not saying that it wouldn't work, I'm just saying that the GH staff doesn't want to end up adjudicating trades -- and I don't blame them for not wanting to do it. But a heatware system baked right into the forum software that would let people make those decisions on their own is doable. Cover it with caveat emptor stickers, though.
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I still don't understand why we shouldn't have a sticky in the Classy's that lists the username with the link next to the classified post that went sour. Something is better than nothing and it would help the community.
e.g. - shadyseller name (or buyer): post url
The reason is quite simple: any thread hosted by GeekHack, even if not managed by GeekHack, that correlates even usernames with "scammer" opens GeekHack up to potential libel lawsuits.
Consider the following hypothetical scenario: In an expensive transaction unrelated to GeekHack, Party A is doing their due diligence on Party B. In doing so, Party A comes across the thread you're suggesting, labeling Party B as untrustworthy. Party A therefore decides not to do business with Party B. Party B now has a case against GeekHack that this thread negatively impacted them in a very real way.
This is blown a bit out of proportion, but these types of issues are things that GeekHack absolutely wants to avoid.
Going back to this, if what you're saying is true, then theoretically speaking all threads such as "http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53700.120" should be deleted on sight?
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I still don't understand why we shouldn't have a sticky in the Classy's that lists the username with the link next to the classified post that went sour. Something is better than nothing and it would help the community.
e.g. - shadyseller name (or buyer): post url
The reason is quite simple: any thread hosted by GeekHack, even if not managed by GeekHack, that correlates even usernames with "scammer" opens GeekHack up to potential libel lawsuits.
Consider the following hypothetical scenario: In an expensive transaction unrelated to GeekHack, Party A is doing their due diligence on Party B. In doing so, Party A comes across the thread you're suggesting, labeling Party B as untrustworthy. Party A therefore decides not to do business with Party B. Party B now has a case against GeekHack that this thread negatively impacted them in a very real way.
This is blown a bit out of proportion, but these types of issues are things that GeekHack absolutely wants to avoid.
Going back to this, if what you're saying is true, then theoretically speaking all threads such as "http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53700.120" should be deleted on sight?
First off, IANAL. However, it's more obvious that those threads are merely tolerated and not condoned. They're also more heavily moderated and people who make threats (even joking ones) or baseless claims are warned. This is different than a stickied and curated listing of scammers.
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I still don't understand why we shouldn't have a sticky in the Classy's that lists the username with the link next to the classified post that went sour. Something is better than nothing and it would help the community.
e.g. - shadyseller name (or buyer): post url
The reason is quite simple: any thread hosted by GeekHack, even if not managed by GeekHack, that correlates even usernames with "scammer" opens GeekHack up to potential libel lawsuits.
Consider the following hypothetical scenario: In an expensive transaction unrelated to GeekHack, Party A is doing their due diligence on Party B. In doing so, Party A comes across the thread you're suggesting, labeling Party B as untrustworthy. Party A therefore decides not to do business with Party B. Party B now has a case against GeekHack that this thread negatively impacted them in a very real way.
This is blown a bit out of proportion, but these types of issues are things that GeekHack absolutely wants to avoid.
Going back to this, if what you're saying is true, then theoretically speaking all threads such as "http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53700.120" should be deleted on sight?
First off, IANAL. However, it's more obvious that those threads are merely tolerated and not condoned. They're also more heavily moderated and people who make threats (even joking ones) or baseless claims are warned. This is different than a stickied and curated listing of scammers.
How is it different if the thread is never deleted? I'm really not trying to be argumentative I just don't understand it. Thanks
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I still don't understand why we shouldn't have a sticky in the Classy's that lists the username with the link next to the classified post that went sour. Something is better than nothing and it would help the community.
e.g. - shadyseller name (or buyer): post url
The reason is quite simple: any thread hosted by GeekHack, even if not managed by GeekHack, that correlates even usernames with "scammer" opens GeekHack up to potential libel lawsuits.
Consider the following hypothetical scenario: In an expensive transaction unrelated to GeekHack, Party A is doing their due diligence on Party B. In doing so, Party A comes across the thread you're suggesting, labeling Party B as untrustworthy. Party A therefore decides not to do business with Party B. Party B now has a case against GeekHack that this thread negatively impacted them in a very real way.
This is blown a bit out of proportion, but these types of issues are things that GeekHack absolutely wants to avoid.
Going back to this, if what you're saying is true, then theoretically speaking all threads such as "http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53700.120" should be deleted on sight?
First off, IANAL. However, it's more obvious that those threads are merely tolerated and not condoned. They're also more heavily moderated and people who make threats (even joking ones) or baseless claims are warned. This is different than a stickied and curated listing of scammers.
How is it different if the thread is never deleted? I'm really not trying to be argumentative I just don't understand it. Thanks
There are certainly shades of grey here. I can think of a couple of reasons why those threads are different, but I don't believe it would lead to productive discussion. The point is that these types of threads (even the one you linked) potentially open GH to legal action. Different types of threads may be more dangerous than others. Caveat Emptor is the only sane and safe course that I'm aware of.
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I don't know anything about legal stuff but it sure would be cool if there was some way to be exempt GH from legal action so we could post a list of scammers. That's all I'm trying to get at but I think I understand what you're saying.
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I don't know anything about legal stuff but it sure would be cool if there was some way to be exempt GH from legal action so we could post a list of scammers. That's all I'm trying to get at but I think I understand what you're saying.
Hypothetically, a person, you for example, could make a small web site, which had an index page with some type of content on it. Then you could put a link on that main page to another page on your site that has such a list of known scammers.
You could always put a link to your site (main index page) in your signature here on GH, right?
I mean, GH could never be held legally liable for information hosted off-site, right?
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I don't know anything about legal stuff but it sure would be cool if there was some way to be exempt GH from legal action so we could post a list of scammers. That's all I'm trying to get at but I think I understand what you're saying.
Hypothetically, a person, you for example, could make a small web site, which had an index page with some type of content on it. Then you could put a link on that main page to another page on your site that has such a list of known scammers.
You could always put a link to your site (main index page) in your signature here on GH, right?
I mean, GH could never be held legally liable for information hosted off-site, right?
JD knows whats up.
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This is a super interesting thread, I'm curious though the thread that already exist in some cases basically list some users as 'scammers'... so couldn't someone who was mentioned as the subject of one of those threads take GH to court on the deformation of character in the same way they could if there was simply a list of people with dubious track records?
If not, with the closing of these threads, would it not be possible to simply move all the closed threads too 'off topic' and make sure scammer or something similar was in the thread title so people could use the search tool and find the threads that way, then use the information in those threads to work out for themselves?
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This is a super interesting thread, I'm curious though the thread that already exist in some cases basically list some users as 'scammers'... so couldn't someone who was mentioned as the subject of one of those threads take GH to court on the deformation of character in the same way they could if there was simply a list of people with dubious track records?
If not, with the closing of these threads, would it not be possible to simply move all the closed threads too 'off topic' and make sure scammer or something similar was in the thread title so people could use the search tool and find the threads that way, then use the information in those threads to work out for themselves?
How about we call it "suspicious" sellers/traders, its it the word "scammer" that causes the problem?
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We've had some people actually threatening to take legal action even recently. I don't know if they would actually do it, but the threats have been made. As well as other sorts of threats. Eventually someone might just go through with it--we have to be prepared for that possibility. Hence treading this subject very lightly.
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We've had some people actually threatening to take legal action even recently. I don't know if they would actually do it, but the threats have been made. As well as other sorts of threats. Eventually someone might just go through with it--we have to be prepared for that possibility. Hence treading this subject very lightly.
Yeah I can understand your stance, but for better or worse GH has kinda become the ebay for mech keyboards lol... but yeah you could rename the threads to 'dispute between X and Y' for example or something
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We've had some people actually threatening to take legal action even recently. I don't know if they would actually do it, but the threats have been made. As well as other sorts of threats. Eventually someone might just go through with it--we have to be prepared for that possibility. Hence treading this subject very lightly.
Yeah I can understand your stance, but for better or worse GH has kinda become the ebay for mech keyboards lol... but yeah you could rename the threads to 'dispute between X and Y' for example or something
I think we need to clearly identify the actual law, if it's defamation, then could GH hold responsibility just by acknowledging that a dispute occurred between x & y...like you said bladgye.
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Where would I even find the TOS? I'm looking around, and I can't find it. I was just wondering if there's a clause in it that expresses the caveat emptor policy.
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Where would I even find the TOS? I'm looking around, and I can't find it. I was just wondering if there's a clause in it that expresses the caveat emptor policy.
Last sticky in the Classifieds subforum. Caveat Emptor Thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=31625.0)
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Well, if anyone wants to comment from a legal perspective--that's always helpful. Problem is that from what I've heard from lawyer types, no one wants to post legal advice publicly and associate their name with it. From the advice I was given, it is not good for GH to have naming and shaming lists. And as I've already brought it up before--it's also bad from moderation standpoint.
Not only do people not have all the facts (only the parties involved know what truly happened, and even they may not know all the details from each other), but other people join the chorus and casually toss around threats. So we have slander combined with threats of violence or action from uninvolved parties--that's never good from any standpoint. And if any other people are involved and named (like roommates), without actually having anything to do with a scam, then their names get dragged in and tarnished. And again, we have to go through all that and through complaints we receive in PMs and see who's right, who's not right, what's out of line, what isn't. It's entirely too much responsibility for everyone who is not directly involved in a transaction gone bad.
Again, the best method of dealing with transactions gone bad is staying on top of your financial institutions' rules, PayPal rules, not missing any dispute deadlines. Even having a public list of names is not going to prevent all the bad transactions, as people can come under new names, or people without negative history can suddenly do something incorrectly.
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Clearly we need a guide to buying and selling, etc.
There will always be scammers and people make mistakes but the best course of action is to be educated and know what your getting yourself into. Sadly that education usually comes at the expense of experiencing a bad deal and learning from it.
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Well, if anyone wants to comment from a legal perspective--that's always helpful. Problem is that from what I've heard from lawyer types, no one wants to post legal advice publicly and associate their name with it. From the advice I was given, it is not good for GH to have naming and shaming lists. And as I've already brought it up before--it's also bad from moderation standpoint.
Not only do people not have all the facts (only the parties involved know what truly happened, and even they may not know all the details from each other), but other people join the chorus and casually toss around threats. So we have slander combined with threats of violence or action from uninvolved parties--that's never good from any standpoint. And if any other people are involved and named (like roommates), without actually having anything to do with a scam, then their names get dragged in and tarnished. And again, we have to go through all that and through complaints we receive in PMs and see who's right, who's not right, what's out of line, what isn't. It's entirely too much responsibility for everyone who is not directly involved in a transaction gone bad.
Again, the best method of dealing with transactions gone bad is staying on top of your financial institutions' rules, PayPal rules, not missing any dispute deadlines. Even having a public list of names is not going to prevent all the bad transactions, as people can come under new names, or people without negative history can suddenly do something incorrectly.
Yeah that makes sense, but I didn't think there slander laws in the US (I'm assuming the servers are based in the US)? But wouldn't a way to get around those legal problems without paying for advice would be to list the threads as disputes, as that's essentially what they are, and once a matter is either resolved or been made clear its never going to be, simply closing the thread and deleting any and all posts that arnt from people actually involved?
I think its important to have a record of these things, as with anything on a forum but removing all the name-calling etc from these threads once they are closed would leave the actual dispute and if legal action was taken GH wouldn't be anymore involved than it is already as removing those posts is simply a mod doing mod duties regardless of the thread
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Where would I even find the TOS? I'm looking around, and I can't find it. I was just wondering if there's a clause in it that expresses the caveat emptor policy.
Last sticky in the Classifieds subforum. Caveat Emptor Thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=31625.0)
Just one easy thing we could do is put the TOS in a more prominent position. Maybe a link on the listing of the various forums, or incorporate it into the template files, so it's always there, always very obviously visible. Visible. Obviously. Visible.
Also, it doesn't mention anything about defaming other users. I'm sure that SMF has a stock ToS that we all had to accept during registration -- maybe that covers some of this legal stuff? There must be some stock language in there that says that the forum owners are not legally responsible for content posted by forum members.