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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: robertsig on Mon, 27 January 2014, 07:42:24

Title: Apple ][ keyboard specs?
Post by: robertsig on Mon, 27 January 2014, 07:42:24
OK, thinking back to my childhood 30 years ago, does anyone know what kind of keyboard technology the old Apple ][ Plus or //e computers used?  It's been awhile since I have even seen one, but I recall not having any problems with it.  I'd love to know the weights of those keys now.

Now the Apple //c?...I remember that being crap.  Perhaps it was the first scissor board I used.  Anyone know?  We're talking 1980-85 technology.
Title: Re: Apple ][ keyboard specs?
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 27 January 2014, 09:30:57
The IIc used yellow Alps, IIRC. I remember it not being very good. Not sure about the IIe and plus, though.

Found an image of them:

(http://apple1org.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/203_0001.jpg?w=595)
Title: Re: Apple ][ keyboard specs?
Post by: robertsig on Mon, 27 January 2014, 09:39:57
Well, here is some info I found.  Not the kind of stuff we typically discuss here though (actuation force, actuation point, travel, etc)
http://imgur.com/a/t4Smx (http://imgur.com/a/t4Smx)
Title: Re: Apple ][ keyboard specs?
Post by: dante on Mon, 27 January 2014, 12:35:07
http://www.willegal.net/appleii/early-a2-keyboards.htm
http://www.willegal.net/appleii/apple1-datanetics.htm
Title: Re: Apple ][ keyboard specs?
Post by: olivil on Mon, 27 January 2014, 13:13:40
Later //c ("ROM 0" +) had a better keyboard than early //c ("ROM 255"). I don't know the specifics but it felt way better and the key were definitely less wobly..
Title: Re: Apple ][ keyboard specs?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 27 January 2014, 14:59:16
Now the Apple //c?...I remember that being crap.  Perhaps it was the first scissor board I used.  Anyone know?  We're talking 1980-85 technology.

Early Apple //c computers used Apple's own switches:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Apple_hairpin_spring

Later //c computers used the "Taxi Yellow" Alps SKCM series switch (I'll put some photos directly on that page when my switches arrive):

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCM_Yellow

Some brief details here: http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/convert-apple-iic-to-usb-t7256.html#p144313

Considering that you felt that the switches were poor, changes are it was the Apple switches. They have a poor reputation, while the rare Alps SKCM Yellow has an excellent reputation.

The IIc used yellow Alps, IIRC. I remember it not being very good. Not sure about the IIe and plus, though.

Found an image of them:

Show Image
(http://apple1org.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/203_0001.jpg?w=595)


Those are the older "ziggurat" Alps switches, which are linear. These were used in the early Macintosh keyboards — wouldn't surprise me if an Apple II variant used them.

Apple got through a lot of different switches. Both blujay and Apple Rescue of Denver cite SMK linear for the //e, and the IIGS used Alps and SMK tactile switches. Personally I've not spent much time looking into them, but anyone is welcome to update the DT wiki with more information that they do have (preferably with photos or references).
Title: Re: Apple ][ keyboard specs?
Post by: overdriver on Tue, 28 January 2014, 04:05:36
yup. you are correct. in 70% of Apple //c with model number A2S4100 has NYC Taxi yellow Alps switch.
actually 'I' am the one who named it as 'NYC Taxi yellow' in 1998 or 1999 here at geekhack. and Ri****r included in his wiki with my pictures at that time. btw, this yellow alps switch is almost same as White alps switch except the click leaf with fold. it sounds little different but it feel same as White alps switch. I still own 2 of those Apple IIc. It is so much better and reliable than other Apple IIc keyboard switch.
Title: Re: Apple ][ keyboard specs?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Tue, 28 January 2014, 15:08:53
Find your original post and I might reference it on the wiki ; )

Alps SKCM Yellow ("Taxi yellow" — no-one actually says "NYC Taxi") is an old switch, contemporary with blue Alps and the extremely rare tactile cream Alps (SKCMAF).

It's a complete mystery how it differed from blue Alps, click leaf design aside. I was considering the idea that it may have pre-dated blue, but so far as I can tell, it didn't. Thus far it seems to be specific to that one computer, so whether Apple requested something special, I have no idea.

Blue Alps is softer than white Alps; I don't consider a comparison with white Alps to be favourable!
Title: Re: Apple ][ keyboard specs?
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 28 January 2014, 17:34:19
Blue Alps is softer than white Alps; I don't consider a comparison with white Alps to be favourable!
I got a blue board and a complicated white board, and the white one feels much nicer, but mainly because the blues are quite inconsistent from one to the next, I’m guessing their click leaves wore out a bit. I’m going to try to take them apart and bend them into a bit better shape, but in the mean time: why do you not like white Alps? Also: what’s the difference between white and blue? Is it just the springs? [I can’t find any particularly clear explanations of this from searching around this site / the web.]
Title: Re: Apple ][ keyboard specs?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Tue, 28 January 2014, 19:01:13
Since you will wish you'd never asked, turn away now!! ; )

That's second on the list of Things Alps Switches Are Infamous For: poor longevity, leading to degraded feel over time.

Nobody knows how blue and white Alps switches differ. White Alps switches (mostly?) have reduced size switchplates, but why would that affect feel? They're specified identically (70 gf for blue, 0.686 N for white, which is the same: 1 gf =  0.98 cN) but blue Alps switches do feel different. Possibly one of many changes of materials. Sandy has mentioned on his website about the factory application of dry lubricant to the slider, but I don't have a clear understanding of his beliefs on this matter, and I've not discussed it with him thus far. Maybe Alps stopped this practice.

My perception of blue Alps (and it's only a perception, although this is a late 80s keyboard that's been stored in a damp, dusty room for years) is that the return spring is fairly light. Once you've passed the tactile point, the switch feels quite light from there on down, and the actuation force is not far above ideal. This strong–light sequence is quite interesting, the opposite way around to Cherry MX clear, which is light–strong (light tactile over a strong return spring).

All my white Alps keyboards feels stiffer and more balky — you've got to hit the keys harder to avoid missed keystrokes. Silencium's force graph suggests white has a slightly shorter pretravel (less build-up time for the tactile peak, requiring a harder strike) of 0.3 mm less, and 15 gf (or cN?) more force after the tactile peak, i.e. the slider drops more readily. The latter isn't part of the specification. The brief spec I've got for blue doesn't cite pretravel.

To be sure of comparison in feel, you'd need to take a variety of keyboards and measure the force curve across a selection of switches from each, and build up a picture.

In my case, I'm talking solely about pine whites (1993 or earlier) which are supposed to be the good version. Ironically, the bamboo whites in my ETC Power Glide 105 (no slits, therefore 1993 or later) feel a lot smoother and cleaner, even though the keyboard is scuzzy and has melted keycaps (I've not tried connecting it up). Those, though, are "plum" whites, which are a real mystery. One possibility that I've considered, is that around 1992 or so, Alps needed to increase factory capacity and asked their long-time manufacturing partner Forward Electronics to tool up for SKCL/SKCM production, which is why a) these switches have wholly new moulds with hand-scrawled mould numbering and wobbly Alps logos and b) the slits disappeared from both these AND "regular" Alps, i.e. they appear to have been manufactured in parallel. I don't, sadly, have any dates for ANY of these strange white switches.

Alps switches in the 90s got pretty weird. alps.tw has found examples with nothing more than "GA" written in the mould, for example. The internals are all genuine, suggesting that they're not pirate — the true "fake" Alps switches (designed to truly fool the user) had Himake internals. The strange white switches also sometimes have the upper shell logo and numbering upside down. I can't see anything like that coming out of Japan, which is why I suspect Forward made them, just as they made the later simplified Alps switches.

(Discussion of these strange white switches isn't currently covered on the DT wiki pages on Alps switches (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCL/SKCM_series).)

Figuring out Alps will take longer yet, but we're making real progress.
Title: Re: Apple ][ keyboard specs?
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 29 January 2014, 06:08:07
Well, I got my hands on a number of keyboards with complicated alps switches, with at least one switch each of: white, blue, orange, cream, green (with LED), yellow linear (no LED), stiff gray linear, gray locking, brown, and half-depth green. (I also got a board with SMK blue alps-mount switches, and another with 2 orange omron switches, for space/enter. And also a few sample Matias quiet switches) I’ll try to take several of them apart and inspect them more carefully for differences, sometime soon. I mostly wanted to see if I could feel the differences myself and find a favorite, and then sell back the remaining keyboards/switches I don’t need.

But Daniel, back to the differences between blue and “pine” white: are there differences in the switch plates or click leaves (e.g. the shapes, materials used), or the sliders/housing, or is it just the springs which differ? How much have people tried to find custom springs that fit Alps switches, to experiment with the resulting effects? I’m also curious about other mods, such as mixing/matching components between switch types, adding bits of foam/rubber/etc. in various places as people seem to love to do with their cherry switches, adding various sorts of lubricant to different parts of a switch, etc.

Also, are there any among those switches listed that you don’t have access to / have questions about? I’m glad to measure dimensions with a caliper, take high resolution pictures, etc.
Title: Re: Apple ][ keyboard specs?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Wed, 29 January 2014, 07:09:26
Due to the complexity of the subject, I would suggest that you start a new topic for this, as it's going to get quite in-depth. The OP doesn't even have all of his own answers yet.

Before you do that, I would advise that you read up on Alps switches on the Deskthority wiki, starting from here:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCL/SKCM_series

All the relevant pages are still a work in progress (and there is a lot left for me to cover, and a lot left for me to discuss with Sandy), but it may answer some of your questions. I'll answer the rest of them in the new topic.
Title: Re: Apple ][ keyboard specs?
Post by: ideus on Wed, 29 January 2014, 08:04:01
The reference on DH is well documented. It is highly advisable to read it as a starting point on ALPS SW, and its clones. Based on the article information it seems that many copies of the original complicated alps shared only the same mount as a cost effective way to replace an otherwise expensive keyboard with a low cost alternative. Even Apple Computers used some of this clones as those were available for a particular model in a particular time. We should remember that Apple tradition of outsourcing manufacturing forced them to select what actual manufacturers have available at a particular time when a new product is launched.
Title: Re: Apple ][ keyboard specs?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Wed, 29 January 2014, 12:34:17
Which clones did Apple use? That's news to me. Apple used SMK second generation switches, but they're not Alps clones.

Interestingly, a Hong Kong company ("HTK") made a clone of the SMK linear switch (which Apple used in the //e) that included a click leaf:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/HTK_switch

SMK did not take this route; they designed a new, lower-profile switch that used a reduced metal ("baling wire") version of the same contact mechanism of their existing switches. The rest is unclear. It seems that the unbranded white switches in the IIGS keyboard, which do take Alps keycaps, are the earliest known SMK second generation switches, but I don't have evidence to back this up. These were tactile; the clicky version had a blue slider and was dubbed "Monterey". These SMK switches are not interchangeable at the PCB level with Alps switches, and they are internally quite different: the slider has a ramp which holds the contacts apart until it is depressed. This is much gentler on the springs than the Alps/Omron/clone approach that presses the contacts together.
Title: Re: Apple ][ keyboard specs?
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 29 January 2014, 21:19:50
Since you will wish you'd never asked, turn away now!! ; )

That's second on the list of Things Alps Switches Are Infamous For: poor longevity, leading to degraded feel over time.

Nobody knows how blue and white Alps switches differ. White Alps switches (mostly?) have reduced size switchplates, but why would that affect feel? They're specified identically (70 gf for blue, 0.686 N for white, which is the same: 1 gf =  0.98 cN) but blue Alps switches do feel different. Possibly one of many changes of materials. Sandy has mentioned on his website about the factory application of dry lubricant to the slider, but I don't have a clear understanding of his beliefs on this matter, and I've not discussed it with him thus far. Maybe Alps stopped this practice.

My perception of blue Alps (and it's only a perception, although this is a late 80s keyboard that's been stored in a damp, dusty room for years) is that the return spring is fairly light. Once you've passed the tactile point, the switch feels quite light from there on down, and the actuation force is not far above ideal. This strong–light sequence is quite interesting, the opposite way around to Cherry MX clear, which is light–strong (light tactile over a strong return spring).

All my white Alps keyboards feels stiffer and more balky — you've got to hit the keys harder to avoid missed keystrokes. Silencium's force graph suggests white has a slightly shorter pretravel (less build-up time for the tactile peak, requiring a harder strike) of 0.3 mm less, and 15 gf (or cN?) more force after the tactile peak, i.e. the slider drops more readily. The latter isn't part of the specification. The brief spec I've got for blue doesn't cite pretravel.

To be sure of comparison in feel, you'd need to take a variety of keyboards and measure the force curve across a selection of switches from each, and build up a picture.

In my case, I'm talking solely about pine whites (1993 or earlier) which are supposed to be the good version. Ironically, the bamboo whites in my ETC Power Glide 105 (no slits, therefore 1993 or later) feel a lot smoother and cleaner, even though the keyboard is scuzzy and has melted keycaps (I've not tried connecting it up). Those, though, are "plum" whites, which are a real mystery. One possibility that I've considered, is that around 1992 or so, Alps needed to increase factory capacity and asked their long-time manufacturing partner Forward Electronics to tool up for SKCL/SKCM production, which is why a) these switches have wholly new moulds with hand-scrawled mould numbering and wobbly Alps logos and b) the slits disappeared from both these AND "regular" Alps, i.e. they appear to have been manufactured in parallel. I don't, sadly, have any dates for ANY of these strange white switches.

Alps switches in the 90s got pretty weird. alps.tw has found examples with nothing more than "GA" written in the mould, for example. The internals are all genuine, suggesting that they're not pirate — the true "fake" Alps switches (designed to truly fool the user) had Himake internals. The strange white switches also sometimes have the upper shell logo and numbering upside down. I can't see anything like that coming out of Japan, which is why I suspect Forward made them, just as they made the later simplified Alps switches.

(Discussion of these strange white switches isn't currently covered on the DT wiki pages on Alps switches (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCL/SKCM_series).)

Figuring out Alps will take longer yet, but we're making real progress.

Your knowledge of keyboards is fantastic! :)
Title: Re: Apple ][ keyboard specs?
Post by: fohat.digs on Wed, 29 January 2014, 21:35:25
Which clones did Apple use? That's news to me. Apple used SMK second generation switches, but they're not Alps clones.

I have an other thread going on Apple Extended Keyboards, but I would ask Daniel directly:

Do you have an opinion, or know the general consensus of opinion, on whether orange or salmon is preferable, and whether dampened cream or dampened white is preferable?

And/or whether they are pretty much the same in each case? The specs seem to indicate little difference.

Thanks!