Pacifist's terse wisdom just helped me understand why I was thinking about 150. It's all about packaging. Cause you know what really sucks? Having to count out X springs * however many people are in the group buy: that sucks. And the suckage -> infinity as X -> 0. MOQ may be determined by what packaging options the manufacturer can provide.
That said, MOQ, price, etc. are all huge unknowns at this point. If I say I'm going to give people X springs I want them to actually get X springs.
In any event, this is all a moot point if we can't find any talent with spring steel.
Cheers,
K
Set of 150 would suck. Do it in sets of 50, 75, 110, and 150.
the average 60% keyboard has 61 keys (poker); sets of 63 would be perfect
the average 60% keyboard has 61 keys (poker); sets of 63 would be perfect
I'd say 65 is a good number for 60% boards, that will cover ISO and Pure layouts as well.
So... my boards are all full size: I have never bothered to get interested in the number of keys on a 60%, 75%, whatever-other size board is out there. I'm amenable to all ideas at this point though: so just for the sake of it: how many keys does it take to populate a 60% board. 75%, etc?
Update: jesus I just realized that this should be .60X where X = the number of keys on a full size board. If I'm wrong about this please correct me.
if we can't find any talent with spring steel.
Why not do something a bit different? I would love a spring that has a force curve like clear, but oh I don't know like 15cN lighter. If going to the trouble to have something made, might as well do something that isn't available anywhere.
Why not do something a bit different? I would love a spring that has a force curve like clear, but oh I don't know like 15cN lighter. If going to the trouble to have something made, might as well do something that isn't available anywhere.I've wanted this forever.
Why not do something a bit different? I would love a spring that has a force curve like clear, but oh I don't know like 15cN lighter. If going to the trouble to have something made, might as well do something that isn't available anywhere.
You mean 15 heavier right? Can't stand all these light keys.
You mean 15 heavier right? Can't stand all these light keys.
@.@
Your sig says you want 62g springs though?
Why not do something a bit different? I would love a spring that has a force curve like clear, but oh I don't know like 15cN lighter. If going to the trouble to have something made, might as well do something that isn't available anywhere.
You mean 15 heavier right? Can't stand all these light keys.
@.@
Your sig says you want 62g springs though?
Yeah I want some 62/63.5s. 47 seems like it would pretty much feel like red/browns.
You mean 15 heavier right? Can't stand all these light keys.
@.@
Your sig says you want 62g springs though?
Yeah I want some 62/63.5s. 47 seems like it would pretty much feel like red/browns.
Where are you getting 47 from? I'm completely lost...
Why not do something a bit different? I would love a spring that has a force curve like clear, but oh I don't know like 15cN lighter. If going to the trouble to have something made, might as well do something that isn't available anywhere.From Ivan stand point, I do believe what he really means is :
You mean 15 heavier right? Can't stand all these light keys.
Gold.
GoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGold
GoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGold
GoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGold
GoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGold
GoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGold
GoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGold
GoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGold
GoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGold
Gold.
GoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGold
GoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGold
GoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGold
GoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGold
GoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGold
GoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGold
GoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGold
GoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGoldGold
The only reason that this deserves any attention is if it's cheaper than Korean springs. It seems dubious that you could possibly have a problem with a spring; what in hell is a 'meh' spring? It's 62g, if you don't like it, it's not because it's not from the US of 'Murica, but because you don't like 62g.
The only reason that this deserves any attention is if it's cheaper than Korean springs. It seems dubious that you could possibly have a problem with a spring; what in hell is a 'meh' spring? It's 62g, if you don't like it, it's not because it's not from the US of 'Murica, but because you don't like 62g.
The ID of the various springs that I've bought as replacements seem to be all over the place. Some sit apart from the stem tube, some are seated on the stem tube so tightly that they have to be pulled off gently so that I don't stretch them too far when removing. Of course this is less of an issue after lubing.
And I'm pretty sure that this is translating into a "scratchier" feeling spring.
The only reason that this deserves any attention is if it's cheaper than Korean springs. It seems dubious that you could possibly have a problem with a spring; what in hell is a 'meh' spring? It's 62g, if you don't like it, it's not because it's not from the US of 'Murica, but because you don't like 62g.
The ID of the various springs that I've bought as replacements seem to be all over the place. Some sit apart from the stem tube, some are seated on the stem tube so tightly that they have to be pulled off gently so that I don't stretch them too far when removing. Of course this is less of an issue after lubing.
And I'm pretty sure that this is translating into a "scratchier" feeling spring.
Scratchy. Come on, we still go on about nonsense like that? My god.
Shhh. Your jimmies are safe with me.
Shhh. Your jimmies are safe with me.
My jimmies are fine but I'm worried that corncob up your but is becoming permanent.
GLWBG!Good Luck With Buy Group?
for material, the best springs are made out of custom spring steel alloys. usually these alloys are high carbon quenched for tensile and fatigue strength. the two top spring-makers in car-sizes in the US are Swift and HyperCo. They both have proprietary steels that they use for their top shelf designs.
that said, all you really need is measurable tolerances and some reasonable amount of fatigue strength. with MX springs, you are also actually locked to a small window of ID and OD, so the first thing you're going to want to do is measure those out with mic. once you have an idea of how thick your wire can be, you want to find a drawn wire maker that will do something like t316l and not charge you a billion dollars. high precision springs made out of good drawn wire with tight tolerances usually go into things like medical devices where if the spring is off by too large a delta, lives are lost or people become very uncomfortable.
other than that, all steels are very close in elastic modulus, which is what you exercise when you compress a steel coil spring. so it's really mostly about finding a good manufacturer that you can work with.
for those guys with fingers like hammers, you might want to look at rubber or polyurethane die springs (i'm looking at you joneslee ;)).
actually, come to think of it, the samples of sorbothane i have coming from that other thread might end up being this very thing. we'll see.
Why not do something a bit different? I would love a spring that has a force curve like clear, but oh I don't know like 15cN lighter. If going to the trouble to have something made, might as well do something that isn't available anywhere.
Clear spring force curve is not more "complex" then a spring from a linear switch, it just have steeper slope. The attraction of a steeper slope is comparatively lower force needed to reach an activation point and higher force needed to bottom out. This should in theory allow to float easier.Show Image(http://www.knizefamily.net/images/pool/spring-rate-chart.jpg)
...if you just look at clear springs, it's pretty obvious that the springs are progressive.
russ's measurement jig is not very precise and can only give you a regression of what the spring curves actually look like. haata has a another arbor-press based design that is giving slightly better data (he uses an imada force gauge instead of a 5$ micro-scale :P). if you just look at clear springs, it's pretty obvious that the springs are progressive.I’m hoping that I can go help HaaTa measure switches/springs in 2-3 weeks. I’m not sure exactly how precise/accurate his measurement device is going to end up being, but hopefully accurate enough to test basic hypotheses e.g. about the force curves of these springs, the variance from one spring to another, etc.
further, i think we do ourselves a disservice if we think that the tolerances on MX springs are so tight that they are _that_ linear. drawn wire that thin with many many different manufacturers over the years are going to provide for much more complex and probabilistic force graphs. we just don't have the equipment to measure these things at the moment in the community.
Can anyone recommend a good mechanical engineering book about compression springs?
haata's force measurement device is awesome. he just needs a jig that irons out physical error in placement, give, and increases repeatability. if you look at his graphs, he has a lot of noise.russ's measurement jig is not very precise and can only give you a regression of what the spring curves actually look like. haata has a another arbor-press based design that is giving slightly better data (he uses an imada force gauge instead of a 5$ micro-scale :P). if you just look at clear springs, it's pretty obvious that the springs are progressive.I’m hoping that I can go help HaaTa measure switches/springs in 2-3 weeks. I’m not sure exactly how precise/accurate his measurement device is going to end up being, but hopefully accurate enough to test basic hypotheses e.g. about the force curves of these springs, the variance from one spring to another, etc.
further, i think we do ourselves a disservice if we think that the tolerances on MX springs are so tight that they are _that_ linear. drawn wire that thin with many many different manufacturers over the years are going to provide for much more complex and probabilistic force graphs. we just don't have the equipment to measure these things at the moment in the community.
I’m pretty skeptical that the MX clear springs have a substantially different shape of force curve from other springs. [It is true though that they are stiffer and shorter than red/blue/brown springs.]
It would be neat if there were a cheap-ish way to find out the specific type of metal used in various springs. But even without that, we can hopefully make precise measurements of: wire gauge, spring diameter, number of coils, overall spring length and length of the coiled section, and some kind of reasonable measurement of the force curve.
Can anyone recommend a good mechanical engineering book about compression springs?
the other thing to remember about these things is that no matter how accurate or precise your measurement device is, it's completely a statistical property that needs to be modeled as a distribution over a large number of samples. that, in fact, is the major difference between cheap and expensive springs. it's not the spring force, the wire diameter (ok, progressives are hard to get from cheap manufacturers, so there's that) but tolerances. you pay for tolerances. that is what costs money.
the other thing to remember about these things is that no matter how accurate or precise your measurement device is, it's completely a statistical property that needs to be modeled as a distribution over a large number of samples. that, in fact, is the major difference between cheap and expensive springs. it's not the spring force, the wire diameter (ok, progressives are hard to get from cheap manufacturers, so there's that) but tolerances. you pay for tolerances. that is what costs money.
I would have to agree 100% here. At my job I somethings have to do a align a shaft between an electric motor and a pump. Usually 10 to 50 hp motor. Nothing huge but I need to know RPM of the motor. The higher the RPM the tighter the tolerance. I worked on one very slow motor that had an RPM less than 950. The tolerances for that was around .015" offset and .030" angular missalignment. I could have gotten that in tolerance in 20 minutes without laser measuring tools. But the plant wanted .002" tolerance all the way around. This took an extra 3 hours because it was only a 1hp motor. The smaller ones actually take longer. So tolerances can cost exponentially more money.
the other thing to remember about these things is that no matter how accurate or precise your measurement device is, it's completely a statistical property that needs to be modeled as a distribution over a large number of samples.Absolutely. My plan, if HaaTa can get me set up measuring, is to try to measure at least 10 of each type of switch, and ideally more from several different keyboards/batches.
Not Korean? No interest
Kidding. Would be down for a set of 60
Not Korean? No interest
Kidding. Would be down for a set of 60
When I read your first sentence I wondered why the hate against US made products. I smiled after the second. But a bit of the bitterness remained. :(
And some people are in a different boat. I try and purchase as much stuff that is US made as I can feasibly get away with. I do realize that is almost impossible with most electronics though. I guess I was kind of raised on the premise that if we keep buying foreign products, where will our kids work?
So my vote would be for US made springs if we can manage. I can't see the price being that much different. Plus in the grand scheme of things shipping would probably be a touch cheaper as I would be willing to bet most customers of a possible GB would be of US origin.
And some people are in a different boat. I try and purchase as much stuff that is US made as I can feasibly get away with. I do realize that is almost impossible with most electronics though. I guess I was kind of raised on the premise that if we keep buying foreign products, where will our kids work?
So my vote would be for US made springs if we can manage. I can't see the price being that much different. Plus in the grand scheme of things shipping would probably be a touch cheaper as I would be willing to bet most customers of a possible GB would be of US origin.
True, many certainly are. But as far as this topic, it'd be very interesting to know what sort of springs we're looking at in terms of specs. I, too, assume that it will be made in the US for a variety of factors.
this is starting to get a bit off-topic, but i'm a bit fan of measuring things in-situ. things like case and pcb and plate rigidity all make a difference w/rt how the switch feels in practice. further, as you know, a statistically significant sample would have to be uniformly picked from a large number of manufacturing batches across all the production factories etc. etc. etc.the other thing to remember about these things is that no matter how accurate or precise your measurement device is, it's completely a statistical property that needs to be modeled as a distribution over a large number of samples.Absolutely. My plan, if HaaTa can get me set up measuring, is to try to measure at least 10 of each type of switch, and ideally more from several different keyboards/batches.
For better comparisons among Cherry MX and among Alps-mount switches, I’d like to pull switches out and put them just in a bare plate clamped down to something, and make sure to use the same type of keycap to test different switches. Then test each switch at least 10-20 times, pressing it at different places on the key top, and different speeds, if possible. I dunno.. we’ll see what’s possible in a few weeks.
After a large amount of data has been collected, we can try to figure out what the best way is to graph it, to avoid measurement noise and effectively demonstrate the properties of the switch, but also show variance from switch to switch and press to press. Maybe I can make some kind of javascript driven interactive graphics on a webpage somewhere.
Even more fun would be to capture a video and audio of the key being pressed, and try to sync those to an animated bar moving across the force graph.
If that works out well, would be nice to add various switch modifications like orings, landing pads, lubricant, replacement springs, etc., and try to show what effect those have.
I’m hoping that I can go help HaaTa measure switches/springs in 2-3 weeks. I’m not sure exactly how precise/accurate his measurement device is going to end up being, but hopefully accurate enough to test basic hypotheses e.g. about the force curves of these springs, the variance from one spring to another, etc.
2) determine your wire diameter and coil diameter. buy wire of desired diameter in a couple of different alloys. buy small rod that matches your coil diameter. wrap wire around rod. cut wire. ta-da! spring!Have you tried this? From this http://web.archive.org/web/20130116000212/http://home.earthlink.net/~bazillion/compression.html it looks a bit more difficult than you’re making it out to be, but it’s possible the difficulties come from trying to make springs out of much wider wire than these keyswitch springs.
this is starting to get a bit off-topic, but i'm a bit fan of measuring things in-situ. things like case and pcb and plate rigidity all make a difference w/rt how the switch feels in practice.For sure, however if the purpose is demonstrating differences between switch types, then every extra difference between keyboards makes that comparison more difficult. Ideally we can measure *both* some examples in a keyboard, and *also* some comparative examples where the different types of switches are sitting in the same plate.
i'd rather see us design a device that is precise but not accurate but that can be assembled at low cost by anyone who can build a phantom/gh60/ergodox. i think this is particularly important because it allows the user to see, along a given metric, how their modifications to their boards affect that metric.That sounds great. Do you have an idea about how to build one of those?
the other thing to remember about these things is that no matter how accurate or precise your measurement device is, it's completely a statistical property that needs to be modeled as a distribution over a large number of samples.
Absolutely. My plan, if HaaTa can get me set up measuring, is to try to measure at least 10 of each type of switch, and ideally more from several different keyboards/batches.
For better comparisons among Cherry MX and among Alps-mount switches, I’d like to pull switches out and put them just in a bare plate clamped down to something, and make sure to use the same type of keycap to test different switches. Then test each switch at least 10-20 times, pressing it at different places on the key top, and different speeds, if possible. I dunno.. we’ll see what’s possible in a few weeks.
After a large amount of data has been collected, we can try to figure out what the best way is to graph it, to avoid measurement noise and effectively demonstrate the properties of the switch, but also show variance from switch to switch and press to press. Maybe I can make some kind of javascript driven interactive graphics on a webpage somewhere.
Even more fun would be to capture a video and audio of the key being pressed, and try to sync those to an animated bar moving across the force graph.
If that works out well, would be nice to add various switch modifications like orings, landing pads, lubricant, replacement springs, etc., and try to show what effect those have.
Absolutely. My plan, if HaaTa can get me set up measuring, is to try to measure at least 10 of each type of switch, and ideally more from several different keyboards/batches.
Need a minimum of 30 switches, preferably more statistical significance. When you account for age and use variance, well, the numbers needed would grow even larger.Sure, whatever. Fortunately, I’m not aiming for perfect oracular insight into all switches in the world, nor is that necessary to be a useful resource. Measuring 10 springs each from 3-4 batches of each type of spring (or switch, or whatever) wouldn’t be impossibly difficult, assuming access to the measurement equipment and enough sample switches.