I suppose this depends on what kind of game pad you are looking at building here. If it is more of a console style controller then yes I would say Xbox has a very good starting point. I think my ideal gamepad of that type would be the PS3 controller but swap the d-pad and the analog stick on the left side. I would really like to get my hands on the steam box controller just to try that one out. I don't want to take the time explaining that one but check that one out.
For PC keyboard type game pad I think razer almost perfected it with the Orbweaver. The one thing I would change would be the HAT switch. I actually prefer the hat switch from the Nostromo. I think that just has to do with the size of the switch and the actual switches used. But I think a perfect implementation would be to swap the hat switch for an analoge stick to use that for movement instead of the traditional WASD. But this is my 2 cents.
One thing my wife would like in an orbweaver type setup would be some slightly larger caps on the WASD keys. She has a Wolfking keyboard rubber dome POS. But the WASD on the left side are quite a bit larger. Like in the realm of 1.25x1.25 units or so.
Just some imputs for ya.
One thing I forgot to add. My biggest gripe with the Orbweaver is the switch on space. That thing acutally kind of sucks balls.
I suppose this depends on what kind of game pad you are looking at building here. If it is more of a console style controller then yes I would say Xbox has a very good starting point. I think my ideal gamepad of that type would be the PS3 controller but swap the d-pad and the analog stick on the left side. I would really like to get my hands on the steam box controller just to try that one out. I don't want to take the time explaining that one but check that one out.
For PC keyboard type game pad I think razer almost perfected it with the Orbweaver. The one thing I would change would be the HAT switch. I actually prefer the hat switch from the Nostromo. I think that just has to do with the size of the switch and the actual switches used. But I think a perfect implementation would be to swap the hat switch for an analoge stick to use that for movement instead of the traditional WASD. But this is my 2 cents.
One thing my wife would like in an orbweaver type setup would be some slightly larger caps on the WASD keys. She has a Wolfking keyboard rubber dome POS. But the WASD on the left side are quite a bit larger. Like in the realm of 1.25x1.25 units or so.
Just some imputs for ya.
One thing I forgot to add. My biggest gripe with the Orbweaver is the switch on space. That thing acutally kind of sucks balls.
For me, my Orbweaver is fine the way it is.
I wouldn't mind a mechanical button where the thumb lever is, but the lever works fine for me.
As for gamepads, the Sony DualShock 4 has effectively the perfect design / button arrangement for me.
My only gripes with it is
1) the fact that is uses a proprietary Lithium Ion battery instead of 2x AA's
2) the analog stick is circular gate instead of Octagonal gate, I prefer octagonal gates
3) The face buttons have screen padded icons instead of having print padded below a clear polycarbonate layer to protect the labels from wearing
Those are my issues with the DS4
Ah, now that you mentioned it, I did dig up one of my old GameCube controllers and I certainly can feel the tactility suggesting an octo-gate. I would not have noticed it if it were not there, and it certainly adds another consideration to the design. I'll have to play around a bit with the GC before deciding though, I personally prefer (perhaps due to familiarity more than anything) circular gates on thumbsticks, however I will certainly consider the advantages and disadvantages of different gates before making a decision.
Things are rapidly coming together. I have quite a bit of research to do as to the technical aspect of prototyping, and several notable pads to try out and examine in-depth, but as to the design itself, I'm getting more confident each day. I'll hopefully find the time this weekend to sketch out a tentative layout and overall design.
Any other suggestions/comments?
I agree with you on analog face buttons, and I had decided initially to keep them digital, I don't have a real issue with the ds2/3 analog face buttons, but they certainly are a step down in overall feel. I am worried though that this would impact overall versatility--a primary concern of this project--especially regarding games that did/do include this feature. Are their any titles that you know of that demand use of analog face buttons for a complete play through?
I was maybe even looking into short throw mechanical or even topre-style switches for them to add some longevity. Every major controller I am aware of utilize rubber domes for face buttons, and as a few of my older examples can attest, the button action can severely degrade after even a couple of years of heavy use. Of course, there are good and bad rubber domes, and this is not true of all examples, but I am really looking to maximize longevity and more robust button switches are one way I am looking to do that.
As for the metallic analog stick stems and collars, that is a wonderful idea, and one I am going to definitely include. I was already planning on making the d-pad infrastructure mostly metallic, but up until now had not considered the analog stick.
Wow, the more I think about this, the more costly and intensive it seems to become. Isn't that always the case in situations like these?
I agree with you on analog face buttons, and I had decided initially to keep them digital, I don't have a real issue with the ds2/3 analog face buttons, but they certainly are a step down in overall feel. I am worried though that this would impact overall versatility--a primary concern of this project--especially regarding games that did/do include this feature. Are their any titles that you know of that demand use of analog face buttons for a complete play through?
I was maybe even looking into short throw mechanical or even topre-style switches for them to add some longevity. Every major controller I am aware of utilize rubber domes for face buttons, and as a few of my older examples can attest, the button action can severely degrade after even a couple of years of heavy use. Of course, there are good and bad rubber domes, and this is not true of all examples, but I am really looking to maximize longevity and more robust button switches are one way I am looking to do that.
As for the metallic analog stick stems and collars, that is a wonderful idea, and one I am going to definitely include. I was already planning on making the d-pad infrastructure mostly metallic, but up until now had not considered the analog stick.
Wow, the more I think about this, the more costly and intensive it seems to become. Isn't that always the case in situations like these?
Something like this?
I also like something like theseWhat is that type of controller called? I'm interested in one.Show Image(http://videogames.techfresh.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/elecom-PS3-arcade-stick.jpg)
nice to put in your lap and relax back on the sofa while playing some old beat em ups.
I can't give much feedback on internal details... I never really thought much about it like I have with keyboards. Basically the 2 main things is is it comfortable to use for more than 3 minutes, and does it respond well... it being somewhat durable is always nice as well of course.
I actually own one of these. It's the true Descenter's controller, never mind what the MS Sidewinder 3D Pro fanboys might say!Show Image(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Spaceorb360-3.JPG)
I actually own one of these. It's the true Descenter's controller, never mind what the MS Sidewinder 3D Pro fanboys might say!Show Image(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Spaceorb360-3.JPG)
But the serial interface and mere six buttons cripple it. The ASCII Sphere's added D-Pad and extra buttons would help a lot, and while there's the OrbShield project to serve as a USB converter, I find it far more practical to just get a 3Dconnexion device, unless your sole goal is to play Descent II on an older computer with unlimited turn rate.
Anyway, as for a general-purpose gamepad, the problem here is that many games have different requirements and feel better with different pads as a result.
-2D games feel best with a Neo-Geo CD-style microswitched thumbstick (or, failing that, a Genesis or Saturn-style D-Pad) and microswitched face buttons, preferably a 6-button A/B/C/X/Y/Z layout. It's all about precise digital control...except for those 2D games designed around dual-analog controls, of course.
-3D games need comfortable analog stick placement, minimal center play (something Microsoft consistently fails at), and in certain cases with the PS2 and original Xbox, even analog face buttons and shoulder buttons.
Even then, dual-analog designs don't work as well as the aforementioned SpaceOrb 360 for full 6DoF control...but the SpaceOrb, in turn, doesn't work so well for games designed around two independent sticks, and there's no way you can accommodate both effectively on a single gamepad without turning the whole thing into an ergonomics nightmare.
If I had to take a crack at the all-around "perfect" gamepad, the result would probably be something akin to the DualShock 4, with its D-Pad replaced with a Neo-Geo CD-style clicky microstick (albeit with microswitches that aren't infamously unreliable), the face button count increased to six, and retained button and D-Pad pressure sensitivity to ensure it doesn't suck for PCSX2 use.
Before you bring up the general non-use of analog buttons, I can think of several examples:
-Ace Combat 04/5/Zero (Truth be told, I'd rather play these with the Hori Flightstick 2, but that aside, the first two demand a pressure-sensitive Square so you can adjust the map zoom, a pressure-sensitive Triangle so you have control over your padlock zoom, and pressure-sensitive shoulder buttons so you have fine control over throttle and rudder. Two of the thumb buttons on the Flightstick 2 are pressure-sensitive for exactly this reason.)
-Metal Gear Solid 2/3 (I don't know what the hell Konami was thinking with the control scheme in these games. For starters, your weapon fire button is on the face, you shoot by pressing and releasing, but to put away your gun without shooting, you have to GENTLY release the button. It's extra-"fun" if using a full-auto weapon, where you now have to hold it lightly to keep the gun out WITHOUT shooting!)
-Grand Theft Auto III/VC/SA (It's a much more minor example here, but you'll notice that the vehicles have analog gas and brake despite being mapped to the face buttons. Replicating this behavior on PC requires VCAMC and SAAC, respectively.)
As for examples I don't know of first-hand, but have been reported elsewhere:
-Eternal Ring (From Software apparently decided that analog mode on a DualShock 2 should entail using the pressure-sensing on the D-Pad and keeping the analog sticks completely useless. How they went from that kind of thinking to a completely sensible control scheme in Demon's/Dark Souls, I'll never know...)
-The Bouncer (Your main attack buttons apparently work differently if you press them light or hard.)
-SOCOM series (Press Triangle lightly to crouch, press hard to go prone. A common complaint of SmartJoy FRAG users back in the day was that they COULDN'T crouch due to the inability to map keyboard and mouse functions to anything less than 100% pressure on a button, and Zipper Interactive didn't take the Infinity Ward approach of holding the button down to go prone and tapping for crouch.)
All in all, though, I have to keep several gamepads around depending on the game, because one size does NOT fit all.
I've never been a fan of Pressure Sensitive buttons.I never said I was a fan, just that certain games were designed around them and I have no choice but to adopt the developer's chosen control scheme or make hacky workarounds in the emulator's input plugin.
Any game can be designed without it and work just as well if not better.
I actually own one of these [SpaceOrb]. It's the true Descenter's controller, never mind what the MS Sidewinder 3D Pro fanboys might say!I have a SpaceOrb and an Ascii Sphere, as well as a couple of old SpaceBall thingies, that I picked up cheap from ebay [was supposed to get 2 more Ascii Spheres $5/each from ebay, but the package never arrived :(]. At some point in the medium term, I’ll integrate at least one into my custom computer input keyboard/trackball setup [passed through a controller with custom firmware so I can make it work with arbitrary software].
But the serial interface and mere six buttons cripple it. The ASCII Sphere's added D-Pad and extra buttons would help a lot, and while there's the OrbShield project to serve as a USB converter, I find it far more practical to just get a 3Dconnexion device, unless your sole goal is to play Descent II on an older computer with unlimited turn rate. [...]
Even then, dual-analog designs don't work as well as the aforementioned SpaceOrb 360 for full 6DoF control...but the SpaceOrb, in turn, doesn't work so well for games designed around two independent sticks, and there's no way you can accommodate both effectively on a single gamepad without turning the whole thing into an ergonomics nightmare.
QuoteI also like something like theseWhat is that type of controller called? I'm interested in one.Show Image(http://videogames.techfresh.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/elecom-PS3-arcade-stick.jpg)
nice to put in your lap and relax back on the sofa while playing some old beat em ups.
I can't give much feedback on internal details... I never really thought much about it like I have with keyboards. Basically the 2 main things is is it comfortable to use for more than 3 minutes, and does it respond well... it being somewhat durable is always nice as well of course.
What's this particular one like to use? I've found the same one on Amazon.co.uk and I've almost got enough money to buy it.QuoteI also like something like theseWhat is that type of controller called? I'm interested in one.Show Image(http://videogames.techfresh.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/elecom-PS3-arcade-stick.jpg)
nice to put in your lap and relax back on the sofa while playing some old beat em ups.
I can't give much feedback on internal details... I never really thought much about it like I have with keyboards. Basically the 2 main things is is it comfortable to use for more than 3 minutes, and does it respond well... it being somewhat durable is always nice as well of course.
Typically called 'arcade sticks' that particular one made by elecom.