Would really appreciate if anyone with direct experience could shed light on this. I'd like a more tactile feel to my typing experience, and by that, I mean the most pronounced haptic sensation when actuating a key. In other words, the strongest 'bump'. Therefore, I'm considering for my next keyboard, either a Cherry Green, Topre 55, or BS. I know I can look up actuaction forces (80, 55, 60-80), but after using Clears, I know that numbers don't always equate during typing experience due to manufacturing and switch geometry.
Any thoughts?
Be aware that the buckling springs actuate at bottom, whereas MX and Topre actuate just after the "give" point, about halfway down.This is incorrect. Bucklling springs actuate when the spring buckles, which is distinctly above the bottom – maybe 2/3 of the way down?
When you say “most pronounced”, do you mean sharpest click, or strongest click? Do you care about sound, or just feeling? How do you feel about the various switches that you’ve already tried? Topre switches don’t have especially much haptic feedback IMO.
I mean the strongest click. That threshold between pre-click and post-click.Well, what I mean by sharper vs. stronger is: the tactile point is more noticeable if (a) there’s a bigger fall-off in force before/after, but also is more noticeable if (b) the drop in force is very steep at a sharply defined point.
Would really appreciate if anyone with direct experience could shed light on this. I'd like a more tactile feel to my typing experience, and by that, I mean the most pronounced haptic sensation when actuating a key. In other words, the strongest 'bump'. Therefore, I'm considering for my next keyboard, either a Cherry Green, Topre 55, or BS. I know I can look up actuaction forces (80, 55, 60-80), but after using Clears, I know that numbers don't always equate during typing experience due to manufacturing and switch geometry.
Any thoughts?
Wow, I think BS is the clear winner. Tactile feedback, check. Nice resistance, check. Pity, as I was curious about Topre, nevertheless, very excited to go retro.
Can you please provide some examples of boards that have blue Alps?
Cherry Green has less tactility than Cherry Blue. The most tactile of the Cherry switches MX Clear or ML/MY. You may want to look into Alps too. They can be very tactile. Topre 55g has the same tactility as a normal rubber dome.
Cherry Green has less tactility than Cherry Blue. The most tactile of the Cherry switches MX Clear or ML/MY. You may want to look into Alps too. They can be very tactile. Topre 55g has the same tactility as a normal rubber dome.
Cherry MY is stiff linear. Cherry ML is reduced travel, and pretty scratchy, but they are indeed quite tactile. The scratchiness is the problem with those, that and Cherry's absurd layouts in all their ML keyboards. There are some non-Cherry ML keyboards with reasonable layouts, but they're rare. The nicest one is the Dolch (really, really nice), but that's ANSI and I want ISO. ML is still sold, so anyone could make a proper ML keyboard.
Would really appreciate if anyone with direct experience could shed light on this. I'd like a more tactile feel to my typing experience, and by that, I mean the most pronounced haptic sensation when actuating a key. In other words, the strongest 'bump'. Therefore, I'm considering for my next keyboard, either a Cherry Green, Topre 55, or BS. I know I can look up actuaction forces (80, 55, 60-80), but after using Clears, I know that numbers don't always equate during typing experience due to manufacturing and switch geometry.
Any thoughts?
This has been my personal experience. You can argue specs and "well if you press it down really slowly you can feel a grain of sand (in browns, clears, etc.)" but very few switches I've tried actually give you a noticeable bump to let you know that you have properly actuated the key. I use a keyboard to type not to play games. Bottoming out is not an acceptable or desirable form of feedback. Proper tactile and audible feedback is crucial for me when typing.
I've owned:
blacks - linear no tactile feedback
browns - no noticeable tactile feedback when typing
clears - no noticeable tactile feedback when typing
topre 45g HHKB - no noticeable tactile feedback when typing
blues - very noticeable tactile feedback when typing (although they are too light for me really)
BS IBM SSK - very noticeable tactile feedback when typing and a nice resistance. They are not too light for me.
"fake" Alps SIIG Mechanical - very noticeable tactile feedback and nice resistance. The feel was sort of "granular" if you will...
No tactile feedback at all compared to blues.
No tactile feedback at all compared to blues.
Topre has a lot of tactile feedback. Clears definitely have a tactile bump..if you can't feel them the other poster was right, you're feeling w/ your ears...what you're perceiving as tactile is all around sound and has nothing to do w/ the actual tactility of the switch itself. You can just look at your selection and response.
No tactile feedback at all compared to blues.
Topre has a lot of tactile feedback. Clears definitely have a tactile bump..if you can't feel them the other poster was right, you're feeling w/ your ears...what you're perceiving as tactile is all around sound and has nothing to do w/ the actual tactility of the switch itself. You can just look at your selection and response.
I knew my post was going to get some smart ass responses, but the truth is...that's been my personal experience. I have owned and used all of the boards I've listed and that is what I experienced. The only way I can FEEL a bump on those "tactile" switches is to consciously depress them very slowly and then I will feel a very slight hump if really try hard. While typing at speed it's not perceptible to me. Bules and BS both have very noticeable bumps to me when typing at speed. I enjoy the noise, but you can't deny that both of those switches rely on violent movement or catastrophic mechanical failure to produce a "bump" while the other "tactile" switches I listed use slight ridges to cause an increase and then decrease in resistance that is hardly perceived as a "bump" (to me.)
Edit: the OP even said that after trying clears he didn't think they were tactile (enough.) Obviously, we have similar opinions as to what tactile is. So, I'm just sharing my personal experience with him to try to help. Which is what he asked for.
isn't the size of the bump: brown, blue, green, clear?As far as I understand, the blue and green sliders are identical, the green switches just have a stronger spring. In general, a stronger spring should serve to make the force drop after the tactile point less noticeable.
isn't the size of the bump: brown, blue, green, clear?
Switches without some sort of sudden failure or violent movement do not have the same type of tactile feedback as those that do. I don't care what force charts say or how big the bump is. Which are you going to feel more, a small bump in a road or running into a concrete wall? That's basically the difference in the mechanical action of the MX "bumps" (brown, clear, etc.) vs MX sliders (blues, greens) and BS.
I need to try out more switch types
.... I'm talking .... BS. ...
.... I'm talking .... BS. ...
Blues feel quite similar to Browns actually, with a deeper actuation point. The force graphs match what I feel when I press them. There is an area of almost linear increase in force, a small area of sharper increase, then a sudden decrease. In the case of the Blues this coincides with the white part being released and then hitting the case.
Topres have an even deeper "falling off", but the rate of change is less sudden (not as sharp as with MX) which is reflected in their force graphs.
While it is true that it may be possible to feel the shock of the white part of the switch hitting the base, it's not very likely on a well-mounted and dampened board. It more likely to be felt on a BS board, though hardly a large force.
"Tactility" is "what you feel" (literally: "perceptible to touch") and a force diagram is an accurate representation of that since it represents the forces experienced by your fingertips when depressing the keys. Force diagrams are generally only for vertical force, but Blues have no sideways forces involved in their "click".
I suspect an accurate 3D force diagram of a buckling spring switch would show a small sideways spike when the spring hits and a VERY accurate one would show a tiny spike on Blues.
In other words, for you the small "spike" of the buckling spring or white part of a Blue slider hitting the case adds to your perceived "tactility" of a keyboard. I put it to you, however, that the sound of the click adds even more than the small amount felt through your fingertips. The combination creates the impression of "something clearly happening" at that point.
Therefore, IMHO, the "bump" adds more to the "tactility" of a switch than the "shock", but buckling spring and "clicky" switches enhance the tactile feedback with aural feedback.
Ergo Clears in particular are very tactile, due to the relative forces acting on the slider from the softer spring, large bump and angled forces of the leaf as it rides the bump and pushes on the slider upwards or downwards, increasing and reducing the force experienced:Show Image(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4899/beigemx2.png)
A good way to test this is to get a board with blues or BS and another with browns or clears next to each other and depress a key as slowly as possible and just enough until you get over the "hump". The browns and clears will be harder to notice since it was just a slight bump, but the blues an BS both will be very noticeable no matter how slowly you depress the key because of the mechanical nature of their tactility, which is quite abrupt and violent.This is mostly true, but when you swap out the spring in a clear for a brown, the ergo clear becomes arguable the most tactile switch out there. I would say it's more tactile than my favorite 55g which I love for it's tactile feeling, as well as BS, various ALPS that I've used, or MX blue. Even though ergo clears feel more tactile, there are some issues that take away from the overall pleasure of typing on the switch. I've read that you can solve those issues and make them feel much better by lubing them, but I really don't feel like taking apart all of those switches and reassembling them again.
when you swap out the spring in a clear for a brown, the ergo clear becomes arguable the most tactile switch out there.
... fingers are not machines. ...
... What is not shown is the re-action of the key to that force that is applied...