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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Melchior on Sun, 09 February 2014, 20:39:40

Title: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: Melchior on Sun, 09 February 2014, 20:39:40
The Rosewill Helios;
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823201057 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823201057)

Does anyone Have one ?

Is it nice  (e.g. Good stabilizers, steel backplate, Solid cable socket) ?

Most importantly, DOES IT  SUPPORT PS/2 Mode ?
(Its most likely totally unofficial - but may support PS/2 mode)

Can someone try a passive PS/2 plug adaptor with this board and check it still works ?
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: Pacifist on Sun, 09 February 2014, 20:50:11
I think the most important question is how they made it have two LED colors.

Quote
Dual LED Backlight - Red and Green

Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: tbc on Sun, 09 February 2014, 21:07:40

"Independent WASD and 4 Arrow Directional Key Backlight Control"

gamer keys have one color.  everything else has another color is the way i'm reading it.
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: neunelfer on Sun, 09 February 2014, 21:09:29
Quote from: Pacifist on Sun, 09 February 2014, 20:50:11
I think the most important question is how they made it have two LED colors.

Quote
Dual LED Backlight - Red and Green

..really? How about dual color LEDs?
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: Pacifist on Sun, 09 February 2014, 21:11:46
Quote from: neunelfer on Sun, 09 February 2014, 21:09:29
Quote from: Pacifist on Sun, 09 February 2014, 20:50:11
I think the most important question is how they made it have two LED colors.

Quote
Dual LED Backlight - Red and Green

..really? How about dual color LEDs?

I've never heard of them. If they were really common, I'd think ducky would be using it a lot in their shine series
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: Tetsuo on Sun, 09 February 2014, 21:14:54
I actually just got mine in the mail yesterday.

It has Cherry Stabilizers which feel nice, a Steel back plate, and the cable socket appears to be fairly stable. If I can find a PS/2 Adapter, I'll give it a try and let you know.

----
Also, WASD and the FN key, Arrow Keys, and the Rest can all be set separately.
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 09 February 2014, 21:28:11
Quote from: Pacifist on Sun, 09 February 2014, 21:11:46
Quote from: neunelfer on Sun, 09 February 2014, 21:09:29
Quote from: Pacifist on Sun, 09 February 2014, 20:50:11
I think the most important question is how they made it have two LED colors.

Quote
Dual LED Backlight - Red and Green

..really? How about dual color LEDs?

I've never heard of them. If they were really common, I'd think ducky would be using it a lot in their shine series

Well they aren't uncommon, but it's less common to see them in a KB. I think I've only head of them once before WRT keyboards.

Anyway, it's a bipolar RED, two LED's wired in parallel but opposite directions. Current one way activates one LED and one colour. Current the other way is for the other LED and other colour. Takes some tricks to control them all, as you have to be able to sink /source current in both directions.

It's a nifty idea.
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: Tetsuo on Sun, 09 February 2014, 21:33:39
Using the PS/2 Cable that came with my RK-9000, the 9200 did not work
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: tbc on Sun, 09 February 2014, 22:02:45
can you just use USB for now and let us know what they mean by two color leds?
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: neunelfer on Sun, 09 February 2014, 22:14:38
Quote from: tbc on Sun, 09 February 2014, 22:02:45
can you just use USB for now and let us know what they mean by two color leds?

I think he was answering OP's question about PS/2 support. Each LED on the keyboard is bi-color, you can choose the color of certain groups (WASD, arrows) independently.
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: Tetsuo on Sun, 09 February 2014, 22:20:12
Quote from: neunelfer on Sun, 09 February 2014, 22:14:38
Quote from: tbc on Sun, 09 February 2014, 22:02:45
can you just use USB for now and let us know what they mean by two color leds?

I think he was answering OP's question about PS/2 support. Each LED on the keyboard is bi-color, you can choose the color of certain groups (WASD, arrows) independently.

You are correct sir.
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: tbc on Sun, 09 February 2014, 22:20:55
so why did it take so long for this?

if it's technical, what exactly is the cost factor that prohibited others from implementing this?  does it require a special controller? does it  require a more complex PCB? does it simply require more SMDs (resistors, diodes, etc.)?
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: neunelfer on Sun, 09 February 2014, 22:23:42
Quote from: tbc on Sun, 09 February 2014, 22:20:55
so why did it take so long for this?

if it's technical, what exactly is the cost factor that prohibited others from implemeting this?  does it require a special controller? does it  require a more complex PCB? does it simply requrie more SMDs (resistors, diodes, etc.)?

Yes, there is definitely some more complex circuity involved as dorkvader alluded to. I'm wondering if this is related to the apparent lack of PS/2 support.
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 10 February 2014, 01:25:25
Quote from: neunelfer on Sun, 09 February 2014, 22:23:42

Yes, there is definitely some more complex circuity involved as dorkvader alluded to. I'm wondering if this is related to the apparent lack of PS/2 support.

Thinking again, I now suspect the way they implement this most likely has an equivalent difficulty of circuitry (just a more complex PCB by far). This type of LED is significantly less common than a normal LED and is also much more expensive. Here is a link to the cheapest one I could find on mouser:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Kingbright/WP937EGW/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvHYEB9WUp7EpTVfFULjWgMyKAl69YOLws%3d

For some perspective, mouser has several hundred thousand items in the LED indication category, and only 200 of them are bi color. Of those 200, most are three lead (common cathode or anode + one lead for each color) I went through about 10 before I found one or two that were like this.

Why hasn't someone done it before? More expensive, much harder to design, etc.

also note that you can most likely feed it an :interesting: signal of back and forth current, allowing you to get any colour between the two (or a wider portion of the colourspace) but this would certainly involve the aforementioned difficult and complex circuitry.
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: tbc on Mon, 10 February 2014, 02:22:41
do you think something like this would ever be built-into community pcbs?  or do we just not have enough r&d time and money budget to really count on this happening?
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: spiceBar on Mon, 10 February 2014, 03:00:21
Quote from: dorkvader on Mon, 10 February 2014, 01:25:25
Quote from: neunelfer on Sun, 09 February 2014, 22:23:42

Yes, there is definitely some more complex circuity involved as dorkvader alluded to. I'm wondering if this is related to the apparent lack of PS/2 support.

Thinking again, I now suspect the way they implement this most likely has an equivalent difficulty of circuitry (just a more complex PCB by far). This type of LED is significantly less common than a normal LED and is also much more expensive. Here is a link to the cheapest one I could find on mouser:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Kingbright/WP937EGW/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvHYEB9WUp7EpTVfFULjWgMyKAl69YOLws%3d

For some perspective, mouser has several hundred thousand items in the LED indication category, and only 200 of them are bi color. Of those 200, most are three lead (common cathode or anode + one lead for each color) I went through about 10 before I found one or two that were like this.

Why hasn't someone done it before? More expensive, much harder to design, etc.

also note that you can most likely feed it an :interesting: signal of back and forth current, allowing you to get any colour between the two (or a wider portion of the colourspace) but this would certainly involve the aforementioned difficult and complex circuitry.

Aren't you overestimating the difficulty of this?

There are only two groups of independent keys as far as illumination is concerned: (WASD+arrows) and (the rest).

So you need an independent circuit for each and the ability to change the current direction in each circuit.

This does not make the PCB much more complex (two LED paths instead of one), it's just that instead of 1 output on the controller for each LED group now you need 2 outputs: one output for each end of the LED path so you can do (0;0) or (1;1) for off, (1;0) for one current direction and (0;1) for the opposite direction.
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: C5Allroad on Mon, 10 February 2014, 06:04:26
Imagine if Ducky jumped in on this?
How do they fit two LEDs? It looks normal...
(http://www3.pcmag.com/media/images/330937-rosewill-helios-rk-9200-key-switch.jpg)
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: spiceBar on Mon, 10 February 2014, 06:15:01
Quote from: HUNTERANGEL121 on Mon, 10 February 2014, 06:04:26
Imagine if Ducky jumped in on this?
How do they fit two LEDs? It looks normal...
Show Image
(http://www3.pcmag.com/media/images/330937-rosewill-helios-rk-9200-key-switch.jpg)


They just fit one "LED", but a special one that actually has two inside.

If current is send in one direction, it passes thru a green LED.

If the current is sent in the other direction, it passes thru a red LED.

Only one LED glows at any time, depending on the direction of the current.

One component. Just two wires as usual. But two colors.
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: C5Allroad on Mon, 10 February 2014, 07:14:26
So that would make 216 extra things that can break?
I would love that lol.
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: bazh on Mon, 10 February 2014, 07:37:04
Quote from: HUNTERANGEL121 on Mon, 10 February 2014, 06:04:26
Imagine if Ducky jumped in on this?
How do they fit two LEDs? It looks normal...
Show Image
(http://www3.pcmag.com/media/images/330937-rosewill-helios-rk-9200-key-switch.jpg)


it is one LED, but have 2 colors, image it is like the RGB LED but have 1 less color (the RGB LED has 4 legs meanwhile bi-color has 3 or even 2 so it can be used normally in Cherry switch)

I heard CM is on the way of making one with this kind of LED too
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: C5Allroad on Mon, 10 February 2014, 07:44:32
I really would like a quickfire with those LEDs.
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 10 February 2014, 10:03:42
Eh, not really much more expensive than single color LED. You can buy 100 pack from China for maybe $1 more than single color. For a big manufacturer buying at large scale I would guess such difference is even smaller or none. I like the idea... but red/green is a **** combination. If they had warm white/amber...
Yes CM had thread about this type of dual color led keyboard, like an interest check sort of. I mentioned the Helios there. I guess if CM choose same OEM can save a lot of time and effort probably. All they have to say is hey we would like Helios too... can you also make it in 87 key?
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: ferociousfingerings on Mon, 10 February 2014, 10:10:50
corsair is making a "mx-rgb" equipped board...
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: i3oilermaker on Mon, 10 February 2014, 10:10:51
Just bought one - will follow up.
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: bazh on Mon, 10 February 2014, 10:40:11
Quote from: ferociousfingerings on Mon, 10 February 2014, 10:10:50
corsair is making a "mx-rgb" equipped board...

things would be easier if they didn't stick to their ****ing annoying bottom row layout
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: C5Allroad on Mon, 10 February 2014, 15:56:54
Still hate the fact that they get the new switches for a year. Imagine if Ducky jumped in on it…
I hate the bottom row.
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: tbc on Mon, 10 February 2014, 16:31:08
how on earth does a company determine that bottom-rows can be 'gamer-optimized'?  i'm still wondering why steelseries  does the things that they do.
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: C5Allroad on Mon, 10 February 2014, 17:12:37
Well the larger space bar and Ctrl help I guess... But those are for scrubs..  :p
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: Melchior on Mon, 10 February 2014, 19:41:17
That's too darn bad about the lack of PS/2 compatibility.

RGB keyboards are totally possible with reverse gull-wing mount SMD LED's and drilled holes in the PCB where the normal Thru-hold LED sits. its just alot of "extra" work when Mfg. are always trying to shave pennies off the already cheap.
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: neunelfer on Mon, 10 February 2014, 20:33:57
Quote from: Melchior on Mon, 10 February 2014, 19:41:17
That's too darn bad about the lack of PS/2 compatibility.

RGB keyboards are totally possible with reverse gull-wing mount SMD LED's and drilled holes in the PCB where the normal Thru-hold LED sits. its just alot of "extra" work when Mfg. are always trying to shave pennies off the already cheap.

Just curious, why PS/2 over USB?
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: Pacifist on Mon, 10 February 2014, 20:47:30
Quote from: neunelfer on Mon, 10 February 2014, 20:33:57
Quote from: Melchior on Mon, 10 February 2014, 19:41:17
That's too darn bad about the lack of PS/2 compatibility.

RGB keyboards are totally possible with reverse gull-wing mount SMD LED's and drilled holes in the PCB where the normal Thru-hold LED sits. its just alot of "extra" work when Mfg. are always trying to shave pennies off the already cheap.

Just curious, why PS/2 over USB?

Propper NKRO?
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: C5Allroad on Mon, 10 February 2014, 20:48:54
I haven't had a problem on emulated NKRO in the bios... Or in games...
Worked on my moms mac, Ubuntu, and win7...
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: Melchior on Tue, 11 February 2014, 19:18:16
Because it works, without lag, or drivers, or TSRs, or OS patches, or an OS for that matter, NKRO always works the way its supposed to, does not consume any actual USB ports, and ~ drumroll: IT ALWAYS WORKS. (Unless your keyboard is dead... but then you know its the keyboard, heh)
Title: Re: Rosewill Helios ~ At Last ?
Post by: C5Allroad on Tue, 11 February 2014, 19:24:29
But is what I'm saying that I'm using USB NKRO... Not PS2...
That's a smarta** response though... (http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/63d4808b.gif)

That being said... I think Ducky implemented where it acts like there are more than one board plugged in...