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geekhack Marketplace => Great Finds => Topic started by: ebacho on Mon, 17 February 2014, 01:03:02
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Leading-Edge-DC-2014-Computer-Keyboard-/171244541499?pt=US_Vintage_Computing_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27def8563b
Complicated blue alps, XT protocol, doubleshot caps. Works great over a Soarer.
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Leading Edge made some of the beefiest keyboards next to Northgate and IBM. The 2014 is a particularly good model.
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No one was supposed to notice that one. :)
Mini-review: this type of keyboard is pretty solid, has a fairly sturdy plastic case and a very thick and rigid (steel?) plate, and ugly (especially when inconsistently yellowed like the ones in this auction) but okay feeling double-shot keycaps (though I’m not a huge fan of the keycap profile). It has a moronic key layout with apparently arbitrary inconsistency between full-height wide keycaps and the funny kind that only pop up in the center. The return key is a (silly looking) shape used on almost no other keyboards before or since and it has an extra wide ]} key to fit in the gap. The stabilizer post + wire is not sufficient for stabilizing this shape return key (at least on the one I have), and when pressing the key at the left side or at the very top, it tends to bind and not properly depress. The spacebar is stupidly long, making modifiers a reach. The cord is pretty nice (though on the one in this auction it looks pretty dirty).
Also, for what it’s worth, these Leading Edge boards are worse than average as switch donors, because the plate they use is very tight to the size of Alps switches, and very thick, and as a result puts stress on the little plastic tabs that hold switches in place, just in its natural position. When you try to pull switches out, some of them will inevitably break, even if you are very careful. I’d guess at least 1/3 of the switches will end up with at least one of the little plastic tabs broken. :( If you solder the switches in place in their new home, that might be enough to keep them steady. Or if you have an equally thick, tight plate, that might keep them in. If you e.g. just stick a couple switches into a plate (without any soldering) that’s thinner and not as tight (like one from a ~1989 Apple keyboard), one switch with broken tabs and another with tabs intact, the one w/ broken tabs will be much less stable than the other one.
If the plastic tabs do break, you can’t easily swap the bottom housings between blue Alps and later Alps switches (e.g. white or orange ones) because the switch plate is taller on the (earlier) blue switches, and later switch housings have some little plastic bumps to hold up their shorter switchplates. The top housings seem to be identical inside, but that doesn’t help you. :)
There is a diode with every switch, so it’s probably NKRO, though I didn’t ever formally test that before pulling switches out.
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No disrespect or offense intended here, but I am going to have to disagree with much of what you are saying.
My observations come from repairing/replacing various Alps switches individually, and harvesting/replacing entire sets of switches on several keyboards, including 2 Leading Edge 2014s, 3-4 Dell AT101s, 2-3 Apple Extended Keyboards, a Northgate Omnikey, and others.
Re: the Leading Edge 2014 - It is a solid heavy keyboard but neither of mine ever worked with Soarer's Converter. I did not care because I really just wanted them for switch donors. And, also, the one in this listing is far cleaner and less yellowed than either of mine.
I believe that the difficulty of removing switches is strictly a function of the skill and zeal of the original installer. Every keyboard that I have attempted to remove Alps switches from has been decidedly different. For example, one of the Dells had a very large number of the legs bent over and soldered down tight, and was a nightmare, while another one with the same part number and specifications was a breeze to take apart. The Northgate was by far the worst of all, but my soldering iron was failing at the time, so I have to shift much of the blame there.
The Apples were not too bad, but, again, inconsistent, while my two LE2014s were among the easier harvesting projects, and I don't think that I wrecked a single switch, or maybe 1 or 2 at most.
I had my eye on this one, too, strictly as a switch donor, but now the price will probably go way up. I cannot imagine anybody using one of these in its original state, but then I would not use an XT either.
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No disrespect or offense intended here, but I am going to have to disagree with much of what you are saying.
No offense taken. I’m not sure we really disagree all too much. :)
my two LE2014s were among the easier harvesting projects, and I don't think that I wrecked a single switch, or maybe 1 or 2 at most.
Interesting. You mean, none of the little triangular plastic clips that hold the switches into the plate ended up snapping off? I’m impressed, since as far as I can tell those pieces are under stress in the 2014 plate just sitting there because the plate is so thick, and have thus been under pressure for decades.
Maybe you’re just more careful at pulling the switches out than I am, dunno. :)
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Maybe you’re just more careful at pulling the switches out than I am, dunno.
This is not easy. If the legs are bent over and soldered down, you have to really be careful.
I filed a soldering iron tip into a chisel shape to enable me to lever the bent legs up. If you remove as much solder as possible and use a screwdriver after they cool, you risk ripping up the pad (believe me, I have done that plenty).
Otherwise, I use crescent pliers and heat up the back side if I have to. The whole thing is a major PITA, but I do not know a way around it.
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This is not easy. If the legs are bent over and soldered down, you have to really be careful.
Just to be clear: I’m not talking about any problems with the desoldering part of the process. Desoldering all the pins, unbending them, and removing the PCB is no special problem on this keyboard. The problem is once you have a bunch of switches in a bare plate, it’s difficult to remove them without damaging the little plastic tabs that hold the switches into the plate, because the holes in the plate are very tight to the shape of Alps switches, and the plate is thicker than usual.
If you are going to solder the switches into whatever their new home is, then having some damaged plastic tabs is no problem, since the new solder should hold them in place pretty well. But if you want to just mount them in another plate and use direct wiring, then you need switches with intact plastic tabs.
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it’s difficult to remove them without damaging the little plastic tabs that hold the switches into the plate,
Are you talking about these tabs that I circled in orange?
I have not had much trouble with them, but more often I have chewed up the body of the housing if I was too aggressive with the crescent pliers.
I have always soldered the switches into their new home, so maybe I would not have noticed anyway.
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How is not soldering them in place afterwards an option?
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Are you talking about these tabs that I circled in orange?
Yes, exactly.
Again, breaking those off may not matter in many cases, but it does mean they won’t clip into the plate just by themselves.
False_Dmitry, to answer your question, it’s often possible to skip a PCB, mount switches in a plate, and solder them directly to wires/diodes in the back. This avoids the need for making a custom PCB for a custom layout (all you need is wire, diodes, and some kind of microcontroller), or when trying to upgrade a historical keyboard to be NKRO, etc., but loses the stability advantage that would come from soldering to holes in a PCB.
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Ah, the only host board stuff I've done alps-wise so far has involved an AEKII or a vivanco, where I've let the original logic to control everything normally.
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Three people sniped it, and it doubled in price.
For that price I could buy 200 clicky Matias, is it really that much better?
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Argh, I miscalculated when this was going to end and didn't snipe it T_T. That was such a good price @.@.
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Three people sniped it, and it doubled in price.
For that price I could buy 200 clicky Matias, is it really that much better?
In my subjective opinion, yes; complicated blue alps are some of the best alps I've used, though I can't exactly pinpoint what makes them so good. I would have kept mine if I was more of a clicky switch fan (I much prefer linear/tactile switches).
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I won this because I put a 43.88 snipe on it within hours of it going up for auction, then put it out of my mind. I did not expect to get it at that price. I have been attempting to get these at approximately the $0.50 per switch price for 2-3 years, and never got one until last fall.
When you snipe, there is not any reason not to enter your best snipe on day one, immediately when you see and want the item, unlike exposing a public bid. If the standard bids bypass your mark, so what? You weren't going to pay that price anyway.
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I put $40 on it, so congrats. :-)
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I put $40 on it,
For what it is worth, I am pretty well stocked up on blue Alps now, and am generally out of the market, but it looks like the low-$40 range is about the going rate. If I see something in the <$30 range I may try to nab it, just because, but I have what I need for my planned projects and will not be actively searching going forward.
These things come and go, but if you seriously want something like this, put down a snipe in the $40-50 range immediately when you first see it, and then forget about it. If you are lucky, one will come through eventually.
As I have worn my keys shiny saying: Snipe early, bid never.
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Oh, no worries, I got this one for <$33 shipped a month ago: http://www.ebay.com/itm/350978427514?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
But switches are a bit inconsistent from one to another, and they have quite a bit of dust inside. I’ll clean them up and lube them and use them in a project, but I figured I can maybe use more blue Alps switches for another project, or else sell them. :-)
I have only made a few switches so far, but I actually have something I like about the same as blue Alps, though it’s a somewhat different feel/sound: take the click leaf from white complicated Alps, along with the housing, spring, slider, and switch plate from a dampened cream complicated Alps. Cut like 4-5 turns off the spring to make it lighter. Clean all the parts, and lightly lube the slider. The resulting switch only makes a click sound at actuation/tactile point, but is pretty quiet when the slider hits the bottom/top of the housing, and feels very nice.
Unfortunately the white complicated Alps switches I have all have quite inconsistent click leaves, so I got another board quite cheap to see if those are a bit more regular. I also still need to experiment with exactly how much to cut off the spring to get the best result.
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I have only made a few switches so far, but I actually have something I like about the same as blue Alps, though it’s a somewhat different feel/sound: take the click leaf from white complicated Alps, along with the housing, spring, slider, and switch plate from a dampened cream complicated Alps. Cut like 4-5 turns off the spring to make it lighter. Clean all the parts, and lightly lube the slider. The resulting switch only makes a click sound at actuation/tactile point, but is pretty quiet when the slider hits the bottom/top of the housing, and feels very nice.
Very ambitious. I can see how that might be very nice, but whew, what a chore.
AEK2s are cheap and plentiful, and I just sold an old early Focus 2001.
I will keep that in mind along with jailhouse blue Cherries, for someday in the future when I need a project.
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I also want to see how well I can make something roughly similar using Matias clicky/quiet switches. If I can, then maybe Matias could be convinced to produce switches with click leaf + dampened slider + slightly shorter spring (thus lower force to actuate). I haven’t done much experimenting with the Matias switches yet though.
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You should be able to swap the click leaves of the clicky to the dampened tactile on the matias - but only between different matias switches, because they aren't compatible with anything else. I don't think alps needs to be lighter.
I haven't actually tried blues or matias yet, but the variability of used switches has been somewhat problematic in the past.
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I don't think alps needs to be lighter.
You should try the handful of hybrid white/cream w/ cut spring switches I’ve made so far, they’re really nice. Now I just need to make ~50 more. :)
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I like the idea of clicky with the dampened sliders, not sure I've done it yet but have certainly thought about it. But I also like switches like buckling springs, so the heavy doesn't really bother me.
It would be interesting to try though.
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Heavy doesn’t bother me either (e.g. Model F feeling would be awesome, if it came in little modules I could put into a custom shaped keyboard), but lightening the spring on a clicky white Alps switch makes the click/tactile drop more prominent.
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I had one of these and gave it to my mother's friend who worked for LE back in the day when they first came out with these boards for their systems. I still miss it to this day. Wish I had seen this auction in time :/