I can only imagine that Apple's obsession with thin would make any keyboard they'd produce today a non-starter for me. They haven't made a keyboard I liked since the ADB. I use HHKBs on my Macs, I'm sure Jony Ive is horrified by the way they look, but they're brilliant. One of these days I might try a Matias. Apple would have to prove something to me with an input device before I'd use one of theirs again, their mice and keyboards are uniformly awful. (With the exception of the trackpads, which are awesome.)
The document says that an "elastomeric spacer" whatever that is would be used to increase key travel distance and reduce rattling.
I can only imagine that Apple's obsession with thin would make any keyboard they'd produce today a non-starter for me. They haven't made a keyboard I liked since the ADB. I use HHKBs on my Macs, I'm sure Jony Ive is horrified by the way they look, but they're brilliant. One of these days I might try a Matias. Apple would have to prove something to me with an input device before I'd use one of theirs again, their mice and keyboards are uniformly awful. (With the exception of the trackpads, which are awesome.)
You mean you haven't found a keyboard you like since they moved from ADB to USB?
relatively short travel distance, which is typically about 0.1-0.2 mm.
Did anyone else ever have one of those metal and plastic 'click it or ticket' things as a kid? That is how I imagine this keyboard would sound.
Or like the top of a sealed jar once its opened.
Another new switch release? What's the deal with all these "new" switches?
Still not as big news as the whole thing with Razer though:Show Image(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/46942037.jpg)
Another new switch release? What's the deal with all these "new" switches?
Still not as big news as the whole thing with Razer though:Show Image(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/46942037.jpg)
Loses*
Another new switch release?This is not a new switch release. This is just a patent application.
The Apple Wireless keyboard is phenomenal in my opinion, better than the mechanicals I've used. I really do hope they make something with the ultra short keystroke design.
The Apple Wireless keyboard is phenomenal in my opinion, better than the mechanicals I've used. I really do hope they make something with the ultra short keystroke design.
I'm curious which mechanicals you've used previously that you are comparing with the Apple Wireless Keyboard? Everyone is entitle to their opinion but I'm having a hard time myself calling Apple Wireless Keyboards "phenomenal" In my humble opinion, it's adequate at best.
Well, all mechanicals are ugly, noisy and basically a rip off IMO.You’re going to have to further unpack/elaborate that comment. As it stands, it’s basically just flamebait (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=flamebait) on a forum for mechanical keyboard enthusiasts.
Mechanical keyboards, in general, promote faster and more accurate typing, are more comfortable (lead to fewer repetitive stress injuries), are considered by many/most to be more pleasant to use,
Another new switch release? What's the deal with all these "new" switches?
Still not as big news as the whole thing with Razer though:Show Image(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/46942037.jpg)
I've never come across a mechanical keyboard that is as compact, quiet, and beautifully crafted as the Apple wireless. You're right it's a matter of taste.I don’t understand why you keep ducking the original question. It’s a pretty simple one: which mechanical keyboards, specifically, have you tried?
Part of their advantage is also that almost everyone has forgotten how nice mechanical keyboards can be (like the ones Apple and other PC OEMs used on most machines up until about 1995)
Well, all mechanicals are ugly, noisy and basically a rip off IMO.
What is interesting is how few of you seem to grasp the very basics of how a debate works.Sorry to make one more reply here, after I said I wouldn’t. But..
I believe I have been respectful towards the participants of this discussion.
What is interesting is how few of you seem to grasp the very basics of how a debate works.
Because I honestly don't think that you do understand how debate works. I'm not going to dilute my opinions to suit the masses, I regret if that upsets you. I don't appreciate having my opinion being called "flamebait" simply because it doesn't conform to the masses. What always amuses me though is when on Internet discussions one person says "I'm done here, this is my last post" and then continues to post on the thread.
Hey, shaaniqbal. You've been already called out for being a !@#$ elsewhere, no need to repeat that. The preceding "discussion" wasn't any different from this.
It looks like they are making something that looks very similar to IBM's beam spring switches. I'll bite once it comes out.
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Beam_Spring
Well, all mechanicals are ugly, noisy and basically a rip off IMO.You’re going to have to further unpack/elaborate that comment. As it stands, it’s basically just flamebait (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=flamebait) on a forum for mechanical keyboard enthusiasts.
Mechanical keyboards, in general, promote faster and more accurate typing, are more comfortable (lead to fewer repetitive stress injuries), are considered by many/most to be more pleasant to use, and are much more durable than rubber dome or scissor-switch keyboards. As long as it’s not bothering someone sitting near by, loudness is a feature, because audio feedback improves typing speed and accuracy (this is measurable, though I don’t have links to papers off-hand).
Ugliness is a matter of personal taste, but I also think they tend to look better. And whether something is a “rip off” I suppose depends on what you value. Considering that many or perhaps most of the people on this forum do some kind of “knowledge work”, and use a computer keyboard all day every day to do their jobs, a few hundred dollars is a fairly insignificant amount to pay for an improved experience.
There’s such a huge variety of mechanical keyboards, however, that it’s hard to lump them together.
But again, which mechanical keyboards, specifically, have you tried?
I wonder where shaaniqbal developed his / her debate skills. At the colliseum? With such logic loaded sentence like: all mechanical keyboards are ugly blah blah... What a great rethoric. Don't you think?
And if you create a physical keyboard that's too thin, how will a user know when they've clicked a key?
Even so, it was interesting to type on a full set of keys, and compare that to how it felt playing with those button samples last summer. What we found tonight was that the keys felt exceptionally loose and flappy. We could just chalk that up to the fact that the keyboard is a work in progress, but we do wonder if that diagonal key travel has anything to do with it. That might well explain why the keys felt less like springboards, and more like trap doors.
the caps feel crappy since they don't cup and they're easy to get lost on
Since you want sources, here you go: http://www.immersion.com/docs/Value-of-Haptics_Jun10-v2.pdf
That PDF gives a couple scientific studies that found the superiority of mechanical keyboards for non-skilled typists and even skilled ones, though the skilled typists could recover some of their losses.
No, I won't apologise for having an opinion that is different to most. Calling me an "idiot" just shows what sort of person you are. That is a form of abuse. Yes, I'm aware that most people on this forum happen to prefer mechanical keyboards. If you're not interested in the debate then just don't join in. But please, let's not backtrack here. We've been over all this already. :)
No, I won't apologise for having an opinion that is different to most. Calling me an "idiot" just shows what sort of person you are. That is a form of abuse. Yes, I'm aware that most people on this forum happen to prefer mechanical keyboards. If you're not interested in the debate then just don't join in. But please, let's not backtrack here. We've been over all this already. :)
I'm not calling you an idiot. I'm telling you not to act like one. It's an important distinction. All I'm saying is that walking into a community that clearly likes a certain thing and then deriding that thing means you're going to get an emotional response, a negative one. And to not expect that is idiotic.
From my experience your posting style, the words you choose to use, the things you choose to respond to, all are the hallmarks of a person whose only interest is to cause problems. And you seem to have done that. Congratulations.
We've all heard the "I was only expressing my opinion" defense before. Many, many times. But I'm pretty sure nobody buys it here. After all, it's the same defense that racists, bigots, misogynists, and the like use. You're free to express an unpopular opinion, just as those kinds of people are, and the rest of us are free to express what we think of that opinion.
And to be crystal clear: I'm not talking about mechanicals vs scissor switches. I happen to like both, and don't give a flying f**k if somebody else likes one or the other. I have a problem with anybody coming in here and posting just to get a rise, and then acting all innocent and surprised like they weren't expecting the response they got.
I looked at the paper cited above by nubbinator. Titled "The Value of Haptics - A summary of published findings on the value of
haptic feedback in human-computer interaction", the article discusses the value of tactile feedback keyboards vs. non-tactile such as on a touchscreen device. While interesting, it doesn't claim anywhere that mechanical keyboards (in the sense that we use the word "mechanical" on this forum) are superior to scissor switch keyboards such as the Apple Wireless keyboard.
Seriously, like I pointed out long ago, and like others have stated, you're the one instigating issues and being an ass in here. You don't come into a mechanical keyboard forum and say "mechanical keyboards suck, prove me wrong" and then ignore evidence when it's put forward.
It has several citations it uses that are scientific studies of mechanical keyboards vs. non-mechanical keyboards.
Actually, I did expect the sort response I got. It's quite typical of what you find on internet forums.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink
Anyway, what have you contributed to this topic so far? The (main) topic is "Apple to release their own keyswitch".
I'd love to hear your thoughts on it, thank you.
Actually, I did expect the sort response I got. It's quite typical of what you find on internet forums.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink
That's just another way to point the finger at everybody else and say how they're wrong and you're right. Insulting practically an entire forum doesn't surprise me at this point.
No, you criticized me for not expecting the response that I got. I corrected you and said that I did expect the response that I got, as it's typical on internet forums. Groupthink is not exclusive to this forum, but most internet discussion forums I've come across particularly where there's a niche interest. Not every single person in this forum is guilty of it of course.
Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people, in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an incorrect or deviant decision-making outcome.
daerid + nubbinator + davkol: you might as well stop digging here.
… or an undergraduate philosophy student.
Seriously, like I pointed out long ago, and like others have stated, you're the one instigating issues and being an ass in here. You don't come into a mechanical keyboard forum and say "mechanical keyboards suck, prove me wrong" and then ignore evidence when it's put forward.
Thread cleaned a little. Please remember to be respectful to one another when posting on this forum.
Damn,There are a really large number of good-looking low profile switch patents: many of which wolud likely not cost that much more than a normal laptop keyboard. It is my hope that eventually some will get made.
It was a nice subject before this entire thread turned into a catastrophe.
Please keep your messages respectful here, that's for the good of all of us.
Still, i'm pretty interested into seeing these new switches in action. The current MBA and MBP "chicklet" keyboard feels fairly nice compare to other laptops keyboards. It's typing nice even if i think the 1mm drop is too short.
It would be nicer clicky or tactile, because the drop is too short imo.
Please go on with the current subject.
Damn,There are a really large number of good-looking low profile switch patents: many of which wolud likely not cost that much more than a normal laptop keyboard. It is my hope that eventually some will get made.
It was a nice subject before this entire thread turned into a catastrophe.
Please keep your messages respectful here, that's for the good of all of us.
Still, i'm pretty interested into seeing these new switches in action. The current MBA and MBP "chicklet" keyboard feels fairly nice compare to other laptops keyboards. It's typing nice even if i think the 1mm drop is too short.
It would be nicer clicky or tactile, because the drop is too short imo.
Please go on with the current subject.
That said, I doubt it'll be the case: Times being what they are, most manufacturers will try to save costs wherever they can so they can beat out the competition. Apple is no exception and I doubt they'll switch to a decent keyboard anytime soon.
as a long time mbp user, the apple scissor switch is pretty nice. thinkpad keyboards are pretty nice, but they have much deeper travel, so it's up to taste. everything else is complete junk and I've tried everything except alienware. but I still find mx switches way superior.Have you really tried everything else?
apple is very strict on maintaining consistency across their product lines as much as humanly possible. that's why their separate keyboards mimic their macbook keyboards.
TL;DR all of this, but these sound a lot like those foil/snap dome switches that have been out since like the 70s or something:They both include a metal dome, but Apple's patent is actually quite different. The inclusion of an "elastomeric spacer" that collapeses said dome will change the feel significantly, or as the patent says, "The compliant nature of the elastomeric spacer 225 can provide a desirable and distinctive feel to the user when the key is depressed"
in my defense, i don't think i said 'literally all' laptop keyboards ;pThe first half of my statement was primarily in response to your claim, quoted and further truncated below:
everything else is complete junk and I've tried everything except alienware.Which did seem to convey the notion that you'd tried everything.
There are a really large number of good-looking low profile switch patents: many of which wolud likely not cost that much more than a normal laptop keyboard. It is my hope that eventually some will get made.
That said, I doubt it'll be the case: Times being what they are, most manufacturers will try to save costs wherever they can so they can beat out the competition. Apple is no exception and I doubt they'll switch to a decent keyboard anytime soon.
Less than 2% of all patents have turned into succesful commercial ventures. Under 20% have been marketed at some point. And I will not cite the papers I read the data on, because I am not writing a paper here. :p
Finally: you do realize that apple has changed their keyboard at least once for the macbook pro unibody's. The 2009 models feature a very different scissor mechanism than (say) the 2011 models. The feel is similar, but the keycaps are completely incompatible. To which generation do you refer, when you mention their strict consistency?
Finally: you do realize that apple has changed their keyboard at least once for the macbook pro unibody's. The 2009 models feature a very different scissor mechanism than (say) the 2011 models. The feel is similar, but the keycaps are completely incompatible. To which generation do you refer, when you mention their strict consistency?
I believe my Apple Wireless keyboard is one of the earlier models. It uses 3x AA batteries.
Just visited a store and tried the Macbook, the keyboard is BRILLIANT! Puts all your crappy ugly ridiculous mechanical keyboards to shame lol. And on rereading this thread, I was positively incredulous. The people who seriously say the AEK II is better than Apple's current laptop keyboards are out of their mind or just brainwashed by the mechanical keyboard propaganda.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkTb9GP9lVI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkTb9GP9lVI)
I have absolutely no interest at all in mechanical keyboards. They're noisy, they're bulky, they're ugly, they're costly, they're inconvenient, they offer absolutely no benefit to me. They suck. But how I feel about mechanical keyboards shouldn't concern you; they're just not for me.*mops up all the bile off the floor*
Thank you for the clarification and I wonder now why you joined a mechanical keyboard forum, but as you graciously put it is not of my business; however, it concerns me that your thread is in one of the sub-forums dedicated to mechanical keyboards and no one has moved it into out of topic. Unless, I have missed the point where this turned to be a forum for any kind of keyboard.
Thank you for the clarification and I wonder now why you joined a mechanical keyboard forum, but as you graciously put it is not of my business; however, it concerns me that your thread is in one of the sub-forums dedicated to mechanical keyboards and no one has moved it into out of topic. Unless, I have missed the point where this turned to be a forum for any kind of keyboard.
This forum isn't restricted to the discussion mechanical keyboards. The description of the subforum itself reads: "dome, scissor, capacitive, mechanical, buckling-spring, laser, membrane, hall-effect, etc." So yes, this is a forum for any kind of keyboard. Happy to clarify for you.
I'm an Apple fanboy and proud. They make the nicest laptops and nicest PDAs (iPod Touch). :)
Always happy to provide you with entertainment, dear.
I have absolutely no interest at all in mechanical keyboards. They're noisy, they're bulky, they're ugly, they're costly, they're inconvenient, they offer absolutely no benefit to me. They suck. But how I feel about mechanical keyboards shouldn't concern you; they're just not for me.
It's not the overpriced hardware. It's not the irritating operating system that feels like Baby's First Computer. It's not the ugly fragile rectangles. It's not the mess that is iOS. It's not even how iTunes is literally herpes you can never truly be rid of. It's not the horror of working with a terrible scissor switch iMac keyboard and hideous half-broken mice with a tiny rubber ball scroll nipple that only worked one way if it worked at all. Not even the smug hipster product announcments. Oh no. None of these are why I truly hate Apple. It's the fanboys.LOL, can I favourite this post somehow?! XD
That and no, really, that terrible metal keyboard and those godsforsaken mice at my call center job. Worst instances of both things I've ever used. (Also I did tech support for macs and the customers are just... Well let's just say Macs don't really have any fewer problems than PCs, but Mac people get SUPER pissed off about it to a level PC people don't because they all bought the 'Macs don't have problems like PCs do!' hype.)
Thread cleaned a little. Please remember to be respectful to one another when posting on this forum.
This sums up my point entirely.
Back on topic, I've tried those butterfly things out at Apple stores before and ew. It was the second worst thing I've typed on. My fingers were cringing. (First still goes to those godsforsaken chiclet iMac keyboards.)
I have absolutely no interest at all in mechanical keyboards. They're noisy, they're bulky, they're ugly, they're costly, they're inconvenient, they offer absolutely no benefit to me. They suck. But how I feel about mechanical keyboards shouldn't concern you; they're just not for me.
Aaand... they're better for the long term health of your fingers, hands and wrists. So go ahead and do the damage now, eventually you'll be looking for a nice soft mechanical with long travel and mid-point actuation. In the end, mechanical boards are for everyone. Muahahaha!
Nothing, except wasted **** ton of money.
Seriously, the longer I use my "mechanical keyboard", the least different I can tell between a "mechanical keyboard" and a dell rubberdome. Sometimes I even think a dell rubberdome is better.
But somehow, I can't stop using and buying more mechanical keyboard.
I have absolutely no interest at all in mechanical keyboards. They're noisy, they're bulky, they're ugly, they're costly, they're inconvenient, they offer absolutely no benefit to me. They suck. But how I feel about mechanical keyboards shouldn't concern you; they're just not for me.
Aaand... they're better for the long term health of your fingers, hands and wrists. So go ahead and do the damage now, eventually you'll be looking for a nice soft mechanical with long travel and mid-point actuation. In the end, mechanical boards are for everyone. Muahahaha!
Why do you say "Muahahaha"? Do you somehow believe pushing all that unproven spiel onto me is a victory of some sort for you? Mechanical keyboards are for people who have more money than sense. People who are gullible enough to buy into supposed health benefits. People who are easily brainwashed to believe all of that. People who like to throw away their money on colourful toys and keycaps. People who mind well are NEVER satisfied with their current keyboard so they go out and buy more and more. Your signature even reads ""Buying more keycaps, it really hacks my wallet, but I must have them." This is all great for mechanical keyboard manufacturers - they're laughing all the way to the bank. Even among the supposed "keyboard enthusiasts" on this site there is much contention as to the purported benefits of mechanical keyboards. One only has to take a look at this recent thread to see that: "What do you get from using a mechanical keyboard (speed, comfort, health)?" (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=76788.50\), I'll quote one respondent:QuoteNothing, except wasted **** ton of money.
Seriously, the longer I use my "mechanical keyboard", the least different I can tell between a "mechanical keyboard" and a dell rubberdome. Sometimes I even think a dell rubberdome is better.
But somehow, I can't stop using and buying more mechanical keyboard.
Your statement that mechanical keyboards "are for everyone" simply cannot be true on a purely logical level. What about the travelling executive who needs to be on the move all the time, and needs the lightest, slimmest possible machine to use on the plane etc? Have you considered the convenience of mechanical keyboards for such a person?
I have absolutely no interest at all in mechanical keyboards. They're noisy, they're bulky, they're ugly, they're costly, they're inconvenient, they offer absolutely no benefit to me. They suck. But how I feel about mechanical keyboards shouldn't concern you; they're just not for me.
Aaand... they're better for the long term health of your fingers, hands and wrists. So go ahead and do the damage now, eventually you'll be looking for a nice soft mechanical with long travel and mid-point actuation. In the end, mechanical boards are for everyone. Muahahaha!
Why do you say "Muahahaha"? Do you somehow believe pushing all that unproven spiel onto me is a victory of some sort for you? Mechanical keyboards are for people who have more money than sense. People who are gullible enough to buy into supposed health benefits. People who are easily brainwashed to believe all of that. People who like to throw away their money on colourful toys and keycaps. People who mind well are NEVER satisfied with their current keyboard so they go out and buy more and more. Your signature even reads ""Buying more keycaps, it really hacks my wallet, but I must have them." This is all great for mechanical keyboard manufacturers - they're laughing all the way to the bank. Even among the supposed "keyboard enthusiasts" on this site there is much contention as to the purported benefits of mechanical keyboards. One only has to take a look at this recent thread to see that: "What do you get from using a mechanical keyboard (speed, comfort, health)?" (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=76788.50\), I'll quote one respondent:QuoteNothing, except wasted **** ton of money.
Seriously, the longer I use my "mechanical keyboard", the least different I can tell between a "mechanical keyboard" and a dell rubberdome. Sometimes I even think a dell rubberdome is better.
But somehow, I can't stop using and buying more mechanical keyboard.
Your statement that mechanical keyboards "are for everyone" simply cannot be true on a purely logical level. What about the travelling executive who needs to be on the move all the time, and needs the lightest, slimmest possible machine to use on the plane etc? Have you considered the convenience of mechanical keyboards for such a person?
LOL!
"Unproven" will eventually become "proven" to you when you start to suffer and switch to something that doesn't hurt you any more. You take the one post from the thread from someone who doesn't yet see the point of mechanical boards, from amongst all the others where people include "better health" as a benefit. Good trolling technique, bravo.
As far as health goes, if you are going to use emacs you are going to get RSI no matter what keyboard you are using. I myself have never seen a professionally published paper on the health benefits of using mechanical keyboards so I wouldn't use that as an argument before I go to buy one.
Quote from: Bol0Aa on Fri, 06 November 2015, 14:13:50
you write faster
No, I don't. My burst speed is about 1/8 slower on my preferred "mechanical" switches (medium-stiffness linear) than on good scissor switches, and much lower on the non-preferred switches.
Quote from: Bol0Aa on Fri, 06 November 2015, 14:13:50
you write more accurately,
No, I don't or the difference is negligible.
Quote from: Bol0Aa on Fri, 06 November 2015, 14:13:50
is more comfortable
That's relative. On one hand, I don't get fatigued from bottoming out, when typing on switches with the right force/travel. On the other hand, rolling over adjacent keys (as typical for Colemak) on a low-profile (typically scissor-switch) keyboard is much easier on tendons IME.
Quote from: Bol0Aa on Fri, 06 November 2015, 14:13:50
helps you in particular with a health problem (like carpal tunnel syndrome or repetitive strain injury)
Well, I'm not aware of any split symmetrical non-mechanical keyboard with decent thumb-key placement. Perhaps TouchStream, but it has its own set of issues. Or microTron, depending on your definition of "mechanical".
If there's one benefit, it's the sheer amount of customization options with common discrete switches. Tuning switches, replacing keycaps… or building keyboards with custom layouts.
For me, comfort is more about your body posture etc. when you're typing so it's more on you than the keyboard. Well maybe the angle of the keyboard will contribute to this as well.
I conclude that mechanical keyboard are more of a collection and luxury item than a tool that does better its job (I thought that they were the later).
Aesthetics, quality, and feel. I'm not sure that anyone has proven that just having mechanical switches helps with any health problem
The fact is, a mechanical board simply is better ergonomically
(and external keyboards are recommended fairly universally by health and ergonomics experts).
Good grief, that old thing is fugly! I owned an old AEK II (supposedly the "best" keyboard Apple ever made, the one with the "good" Alps switches) and it was absolutely dire. Simply no comparison to a modern laptop keyboard, it was incredibly strenuous to type on.I much prefer the AEK (M0115) to the AEK II. If you think the AEK II is too strenuous, you’d probably agree.
And grats, on your "portable keyboard" idea, but it still doesn't seem particularly portable to me. No traveling exec is seriously going to want the inconvenience of having to carry that thing around with them, use on aeroplanes etc, not least for how ugly (in that prototype form at least) it looks.
If you took this idea into the "Dragon's Den" and tried to pitch it to themWTF is that?
Good grief, that old thing is fugly! I owned an old AEK II (supposedly the "best" keyboard Apple ever made, the one with the "good" Alps switches) and it was absolutely dire. Simply no comparison to a modern laptop keyboard, it was incredibly strenuous to type on.I much prefer the AEK (M0115) to the AEK II. If you think the AEK II is too strenuous, you’d probably agree.
Orange Alps switches on the AEK are quite a bit less stiff and smoother than the cream Alps switches of the AEK II.
As strain is concerned, modern Apple laptop keyboard switches actually require more force than orange Alps switches.
...
The initial force may be more, but the overall strain is more because of the deeper key travel. ...
Thread cleaned a little. Please remember to be respectful to one another when posting on this forum.
This sums up my point entirely.
+1
C'mon guys, we get questions about all sorts of keyboards here.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=6970.15
There's some good comments in that thread.
And remember that HHKB is rubber dome, whatever way you look at it.
Also kudos for OP actually continuing to respond in this thread, many would have just given up.