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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: jacobolus on Wed, 19 March 2014, 18:45:20

Title: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 19 March 2014, 18:45:20: Okay, I’ve done various fiddling, as I sit and think about what’s useful in a layout and how existing ones can be improved, and I figure I can share some of my ideas here.

For my own purposes, I’m eventually going to make a keyboard with as few keys as possible (probably around 50) in a complicated 3d shape, and lots of extra layers and special logic built into the firmware.

But I also think it’s possible to do a lot better than a standard keyboard, even without questioning some of the basic layout choices (such as sticking to Sholes stagger and QWERTY layout, keeping the number row, aligning all the keys the same way on a single plane, and putting everything roughly in a rectangle).

So here’s a pretty conservative (in the sense that it should be pretty easy for someone used to a regular keyboard to adopt) 60% style layout, but which I think has several huge improvements over the standard shape:

(1) A bit of extra space between hands
(2) Easier to reach shift and enter on the right side
(3) Much easier to reach delete, on the thumb
(4) Several extra modifier keys which might be used for any number of things

This one might be called the “space invader” layout.

(http://i.imgur.com/sXCjoPl.png)

I’ll try to post further ideas here in the next few days/weeks.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 19 March 2014, 20:10:13: Or here’s something closer to 40% size:
(http://i.imgur.com/TuR8Bpo.png)
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 19 March 2014, 20:31:20: Or perhaps this kind of design could accommodate trackpoints:
(http://i.imgur.com/53lVeDT.png)

I’m pretty sure a trackpoint can safely go between index and middle finger and not be in the way of typing.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: Vibex on Wed, 19 March 2014, 20:34:08: Quote from: jacobolus on Wed, 19 March 2014, 20:31:20
Or perhaps this kind of design could accommodate trackpoints:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/53lVeDT.png)

That seems like a really awkward place for trackpoints.
I've been working on some layouts of my own for the past 2 or so months, but I'm still fiddling. I'll post them when the reach a more finalized state.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 19 March 2014, 21:04:52: Quote from: Vibex on Wed, 19 March 2014, 20:34:08
That seems like a really awkward place for trackpoints.
Why do you think so? It’s much easier to reach than the standard place they get put on laptops, and it should still hopefully not get in the way of typing.

(I mean, it would obviously be better to get rid of the Sholes stagger and QWERTY layout, but within those constraints...)
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: Vibex on Wed, 19 March 2014, 21:58:07: Quote from: jacobolus on Wed, 19 March 2014, 21:04:52
Quote from: Vibex on Wed, 19 March 2014, 20:34:08
That seems like a really awkward place for trackpoints.
Why do you think so? It’s much easier to reach than the standard place they get put on laptops, and it should still hopefully not get in the way of typing.

(I mean, it would obviously be better to get rid of the Sholes stagger and QWERTY layout, but within those constraints...)
I was just feeling it out on my keyboard and it felt strange. I think if it was shifted more toward the center (between the T, F ,G and U, H, J keys) that it feels more natural.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 19 March 2014, 22:29:17: Quote from: Vibex on Wed, 19 March 2014, 21:58:07
I was just feeling it out on my keyboard and it felt strange. I think if it was shifted more toward the center (between the T, F ,G and U, H, J keys) that it feels more natural.
The problem there is that the index finger presses all of those keys, so if you have a trackpoint in the middle, it’s likely to get in the way when you’re just trying to type. Whereas I think if the trackpoint is between the index and middle fingers, that problem can be avoided.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: Vibex on Thu, 20 March 2014, 06:11:11: Quote from: jacobolus on Wed, 19 March 2014, 22:29:17
Quote from: Vibex on Wed, 19 March 2014, 21:58:07
I was just feeling it out on my keyboard and it felt strange. I think if it was shifted more toward the center (between the T, F ,G and U, H, J keys) that it feels more natural.
The problem there is that the index finger presses all of those keys, so if you have a trackpoint in the middle, it’s likely to get in the way when you’re just trying to type. Whereas I think if the trackpoint is between the index and middle fingers, that problem can be avoided.
True. I feel I could get used to either, but I'd really need to test them in real life to have any valid criticism.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 20 March 2014, 21:04:10: Okay, here’s an idea with a column stagger and some angle, sort of along the lines of the “Atreus” (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54759.0). Better would be to split it and add some tenting too.
(http://i.imgur.com/NR7llDo.png)
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: tribade on Thu, 20 March 2014, 21:20:37: Quote from: jacobolus on Thu, 20 March 2014, 21:04:10
Okay, here’s an idea with a column stagger and some angle, sort of along the lines of the “Atreus” (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54759.0). Better would be to split it and add some tenting too.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/NR7llDo.png)

I like this one! I don't know whether it's really up my alley, but it seems as though it would appeal to the ergonomic crowd for sure. Also, it's nice that it has standard-looking keycap sizes. It would be difficult to get caps for the first couple you thought up, as far as I know.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 20 March 2014, 21:47:16: Or perhaps it’s fine to keep the keys on each half in a roughly rectangular type arrangement:
(http://i.imgur.com/BBZJcF5.png)
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: Vibex on Thu, 20 March 2014, 21:53:23: Quote from: jacobolus on Thu, 20 March 2014, 21:47:16
Or perhaps it’s fine to keep the keys on each half in a roughly rectangular type arrangement:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/WPRJITu.png)

I prefer this one, and whatever you do you should include a trackpoint.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: tribade on Thu, 20 March 2014, 21:54:35: Quote from: Vibex on Thu, 20 March 2014, 21:53:23
Quote from: jacobolus on Thu, 20 March 2014, 21:47:16
Or perhaps it’s fine to keep the keys on each half in a roughly rectangular type arrangement:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/WPRJITu.png)

I prefer this one, and whatever you do you should include a trackpoint.

Agreed. I haven't used a trackpoint in a long time, but I miss them weirdly enough.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 20 March 2014, 22:22:52: Quote from: jacobolus on Wed, 19 March 2014, 20:10:13
Or here’s something closer to 40% size:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/TuR8Bpo.png)

I really like this layout.

I have been slowly planning what to do for an upcoming project of mine, and I think I'll steal some design cues from this.

The middle column reminds me of the wide type layouts. Given my typing preferences, I am a great match for them.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: ideus on Thu, 20 March 2014, 22:26:44: Quote from: jacobolus on Wed, 19 March 2014, 20:10:13
Or here’s something closer to 40% size:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/TuR8Bpo.png)

This is a very functional layout. Are you planning to build a prototype, or it is just in a concept phase?
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 21 March 2014, 02:50:38: Quote from: ideus on Thu, 20 March 2014, 22:26:44
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/TuR8Bpo.png)

This is a very functional layout. Are you planning to build a prototype, or it is just in a concept phase?

I’m going to make a few more prototypes of various ideas, using some thick card stock as a plate, and direct wiring. I’m not sure exactly which ones will get made, but I could try to make one like this (albeit with keycap labels that don’t quite match, and possibly 2x keys for spacebars instead of 2.5x).
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 21 March 2014, 05:26:32: Interesting layouts there.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 27 March 2014, 02:25:54: So the cardboard prototype I’ve been building so far is trickier than the ideas above in this thread: the thumb section for each hand is actually split into 2 parts, each on its own plane, with the finger section on a third plane. (So if made out of flat pieces, the keyboard overall takes 6 parts; or it could be cut out of a solid piece of material w/ a fancy enough CNC machine, or 3d printed, etc.)

Anyhow, here’s a preliminary idea for the character mapping for the "numpad"/symbol layer, activated by holding the № key, here marked orange.

The right-hand “home row” is the keys here labeled 01234.

(http://i.imgur.com/ofeQEC9.png)

Edit: though something like this is closer to a standard numpad:
(http://i.imgur.com/ozRTPNa.png)
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 30 March 2014, 05:03:59: Ignoring the specific character layout, some tweaks to the physical key layout of the finger sections:
(http://i.imgur.com/zE06hRL.png)

(I think overall the two hands need to either be split a bit further, or tilt slightly more toward each-other. Even considering tenting/downward tilt.)
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: Vibex on Sun, 30 March 2014, 06:55:14: Quote from: jacobolus on Sun, 30 March 2014, 05:03:59
Ignoring the specific character layout, some tweaks to the physical key layout of the finger sections:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/zE06hRL.png)

(I think overall the two hands need to either be split a bit further, or tilt slightly more toward each-other. Even considering tenting/downward tilt.)
Looking good, but I can't help but feel it would take me forever to learn the layout.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 30 March 2014, 07:11:29: Quote from: Vibex on Sun, 30 March 2014, 06:55:14
Looking good, but I can't help but feel it would take me forever to learn the layout.
You mean, to learn the new physical layout, or to learn a completely different key layout (like Dvorak or AdNW or whatever)?

I still need to hook up the left hand of my cardboard prototype, but just sticking to a QWERTY layout for the immediate present, the right hand part is very easy to adjust to. I find it much easier than, to take one popular example, the Ergodox. All the keys are extremely easy to reach, and laid out in such a way that it’s very difficult to accidentally hit the wrong key.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: Vibex on Sun, 30 March 2014, 07:19:30: Quote from: jacobolus on Sun, 30 March 2014, 07:11:29
Quote from: Vibex on Sun, 30 March 2014, 06:55:14
Looking good, but I can't help but feel it would take me forever to learn the layout.
You mean, to learn the new physical layout, or to learn a completely different key layout (like Dvorak or AdNW or whatever)?

I still need to hook up the left hand of my cardboard prototype, but just sticking to a QWERTY layout for the immediate present, the right hand part is very easy to adjust to. I find it much easier than, to take one popular example, the Ergodox. All the keys are extremely easy to reach, and laid out in such a way that it’s very difficult to accidentally hit the wrong key.
I meant physical layout. I'm not worried about key layout. I taught myself Colemak in less then a month.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 07 April 2014, 22:21:46: Okay, here’s one which keeps the typical Sholes stagger, but puts a bit of angle between the hands.
(http://i.imgur.com/hZQf1ow.png)
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: Vibex on Mon, 07 April 2014, 22:24:59: Quote from: jacobolus on Mon, 07 April 2014, 22:21:46
Okay, here’s one which keeps the typical Sholes stagger, but puts a bit of angle between the hands.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/hZQf1ow.png)

I've been working on a ton of different layouts recently. What are you using to make these mockups? I'd post mine if I had an easy way to.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 07 April 2014, 23:53:34: Quote from: Vibex on Mon, 07 April 2014, 22:24:59
I've been working on a ton of different layouts recently. What are you using to make these mockups? I'd post mine if I had an easy way to.
Adobe Illustrator.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: Vibex on Tue, 08 April 2014, 05:49:12: Quote from: jacobolus on Mon, 07 April 2014, 23:53:34
Quote from: Vibex on Mon, 07 April 2014, 22:24:59
I've been working on a ton of different layouts recently. What are you using to make these mockups? I'd post mine if I had an easy way to.
Adobe Illustrator.
I'm on linux, so I'll have to find an alternative. :( I'll see what I can do.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 30 May 2014, 14:23:20: Here’s a slight variant of one posted a bit up thread. This time only using 1u or 1.5u keys:
(http://i.imgur.com/IaEiUf5.png)
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 30 May 2014, 15:24:03: It's a great way to use some of the ergodox keysets that have been made.

I'm not a fan of fixed ergo designs (always too close for me) but I think the layout itself has a lot of merits for split use.

Since I have hyperflexible fingers, I'd add a key a little under Z and / that I can hit with my palm / inner knuckle.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 30 May 2014, 16:19:28: Quote from: dorkvader on Fri, 30 May 2014, 15:24:03
I'm not a fan of fixed ergo designs (always too close for me) but I think the layout itself has a lot of merits for split use.
I think it’s okay for it to be fixed and relatively close, assuming it has a carefully tuned amount of tenting.

For something to carry around all the time, I want to try making something somewhat along these lines, with a hinge in the middle so it can fold over with the keys in the middle and the bottom of the case facing outward, into a very tiny and portable package, and then fold open to a 20 or 30° angle past flat. The angle has to be just right for it to be completely comfortable.

For something that will sit on a desk all the time, a split keyboard or a keyboard with a bigger distance between right and left hands is probably better.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 30 May 2014, 16:26:12: I should clarify: for an individual user, doing a custom one off for themself, a non split design can be pretty much ideal, but I wouldn't want to make lots of these for other people: too much variation that the split design helps solve.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 30 May 2014, 16:38:39: Quote from: dorkvader on Fri, 30 May 2014, 16:26:12
I should clarify: for an individual user, doing a custom one off for themself, a non split design can be pretty much ideal, but I wouldn't want to make lots of these for other people: too much variation that the split design helps solve.
Well, it’s obviously never going to be entirely perfect unless made bespoke for each person, but I also think there’s quite substantial portability advantage in having a single thing to carry around, that may outweigh any advantage from getting exactly the right personal angle and distance. I bet with 3 or so size/shape choices, 90% of the population would be reasonably satisfied.

But anyway, I don’t plan to make “lots” of anything. I do want to make 6–12 keyboards of various designs in the next few months and maybe try to sell some of them for about the cost of parts plus some nominal amount for labor.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 30 May 2014, 16:59:06: Well, with a split design you can stack the two halves for considerable space advantage. There are merits to both designs.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: CPTBadAss on Fri, 30 May 2014, 17:38:55: Quote from: jacobolus on Fri, 30 May 2014, 14:23:20
Here’s a slight variant of one posted a bit up thread. This time only using 1u or 1.5u keys:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/IaEiUf5.png)

This with tenting and no trackpoints would be pretty cool. I really don't like trackpoints, they just don't work for me.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 01 July 2014, 23:46:09: TKL-plus layout
(http://i.imgur.com/agK3Fmr.png)

Shares many of the problems of the standard keyboard layout, such as lack of hand separation and awkward wrist angles, but it’s more compact and makes several keys quite a bit easier to reach (most importantly: shift, return, backspace, escape, apostrophe, and all the modifiers), and should be quite easy to learn.

60% version:
(http://i.imgur.com/LVxuSUE.png)

Or we could get fancy and slap some palm keys on there:
(http://i.imgur.com/m4DT8Tk.png)
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 02 July 2014, 01:20:59: Why are standard numpads so stale and terrible? Seems like you could make a huge improvement in lives of folks doing data entry or numerical calculations without too many changes.

For instance, something like:
(http://i.imgur.com/BnYqKLW.png)
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 07 August 2014, 19:10:51: Okay, here’s a WIP design for a split but each-hand-flat keyboard, with what I think is a more effective scheme for modifier keys than the standard one:

(http://i.imgur.com/hMLsZLH.png)

One downside is that it pretty much requires two hands to do most shortcuts, so for someone using Photoshop or similar, with a mouse in one hand most of the time, the layout would probably need some tweaking / another mode.

My guess is that this design would be substantially more comfortable than an Ergodox.

I might be overdoing it with the 4 shift keys. It’s hard to balance the competing goals of not making things too complex / not having too many layers or special functions vs. covering all necessary functionality in an easy-to-reach way.

Or maybe instead of split, have a hinge in the middle that can rotate it to be angled downward or fold over on itself for easy carrying, and make the layout more like:
(http://i.imgur.com/38rksMg.png)
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 08 September 2014, 21:18:56: And now for something totally silly:
(http://i.imgur.com/Nzsl1iK.png)
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: Vibex on Mon, 08 September 2014, 21:46:27: Quote from: jacobolus on Mon, 08 September 2014, 21:18:56
And now for something totally silly:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/Nzsl1iK.png)

I want this, but I do't know why. ;)
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 08 September 2014, 22:09:07: Quote from: Vibex on Mon, 08 September 2014, 21:46:27
Quote from: jacobolus on Mon, 08 September 2014, 21:18:56
And now for something totally silly:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/Nzsl1iK.png)

I want this, but I do't know why. ;)
:-)

A bit more reasonable:
(http://i.imgur.com/ThP0SQA.png)

(Still more keys than I want to have, but lots of people seem to love extra keys, so..)

Or closer to what I want out of a keyboard:
(http://i.imgur.com/mE1LKom.png)
(which I guess is basically just the thing from a few posts up but with a somewhat different thumb section)
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 09 September 2014, 01:11:44: (http://i.imgur.com/xWl4KFI.png)

Or for those who can’t live without scads of extra keys:
(http://i.imgur.com/3mz2zBG.png)

I do think the keys at the top would be much easier to hit accurately than the F keys placed in a similar position on other keyboards, but in general I’m convinced that skipping such extra keys and using layers to access those functions is generally the way to go.

Example letter layout:
(http://i.imgur.com/x8Z8cJL.png)
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: PieterGen on Sat, 13 September 2014, 03:16:26: Thanks jacobolus. I am aware of the 60% constraints. I might drop the rectangle shape. What I want is a portable, reasonably ergonomic keyboard. Of course there is a trade off between portability and ergonomy. I pried a bunch of sh1tty keycaps from a cheap keyboard, I'll make some "cardboard and keycap" dummies to try out some ideas.
Title: Re: Layout design riffs
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 17 September 2014, 05:26:41: Something more explicitly similar to the Ergodox:
(http://i.imgur.com/CA2zb9n.png)