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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: RoyBread on Sun, 23 March 2014, 05:01:29
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Hey, I'm looking for a minimalistic flat keyboard with anti-ghosting. My problem is that all anti-ghosting keyboards seem to be bloated with stuff i have no use for (extra buttons, LEDs, etc.) along with nearly always having tall keys. That stuff is counterproductive for my use and I'd rather not pay extra for features I prefer to be without.
I'm currently using two keyboard; A standard cheap Logitech one with tall buttons for most things, and this one for fighting games:
http://www.shop13.gr/images/logitech-ultra-flat-keyboard-967653-0115-00605-2.jpg
The new keyboard I'm looking for would ideally replace the fighting game keyboard.
Thanks.
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What do you mean by minimalistic?
Are you still looking for quality "ultra-flat" - Ultraslim - laptop style keyboards?
(with chiclet / scissor switches?)
Very inexpensive Rosewill Slim Keyboard (RIKB-11002)
Or not my taste but for what you are looking for - I don't think you can beat the wired lenovo chiclet
http://easy-taobao.com/taobao/view/id/7958721011
But if you are welling to expand in the mechanical world then it depends on the price you want to pay and personal tastes.
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new rapoo i think quite slim
:)
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None of those seem to be advertised as having anti-ghosting, nor do i want wireless. Thanks though.
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Rapoo KX is i think wireless/bluetooth
http://www.rapoo.com/ProductShow.aspx?PType=CHTi%2f0TqNIc%3d&PID=uCupl3PJuVw%3d
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/rapoo-kx-t7250.html?hilit=rapoo
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Yeah, i said i do not want wireless. Doesn't seem to have anti-ghosting.
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What about a keyboard with cherry ml switches? Its slim an minimalistic. What size do you want?
(cherry ml switch tkl keyboard)
http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/Keyboards/Industrial/4100/index.htm (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/Keyboards/Industrial/4100/index.htm)
I dont know anything about the key rollover properties about this keyboard though.
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We still don't know what minimalistic means.
or if "laptop" type switch is a requirement. Although there is a reference to counterproductive "tall keys". Someone needs to explain that to me as well.
Lots of plain NKRO boards out there (not always advertised as anti-ghosting but does the same difference).
Unless you play very specific games that requires more than 6KRO most USB keyboards will not "ghost" the keys you need to play your game.
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you may be interested in cherry's keyboards with NKRO, such as an older PS/2 model, or the new "cherry MX board 2.0" which has a flat profile, low keycaps, and diodes for NKRO.
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_G80-3800
http://deskthority.net/news-reviews-f4/cherry-g80-3800-mx-board-2-0-t2256.html
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Minimalistic meaning it doesn't have unnecessary elements, size or features; in that sense, this one is good: http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/Keyboards/Industrial/4100/index.htm
I have tried playing fighting games on a bunch of different cheap and expensive keyboards. They all have some necessary button combination that won't come out on them, which is why a keyboard that's confirmed to have proper anti-ghosting is necessary for me.
For example on my current keyboard, holding SX while tapping the H key results in the H input not being registered.
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Full anti-ghosting/blocking is done with diodes for every switch. The laptop style scissor switch keyboards you seem to be asking for can't accommodate this. If this is just for fighting games consider building or buying a Hitbox (http://www.hitboxarcade.com/) style controller instead.
If you can more accurately describe what your problem is with your current keyboard, people might be able to give other suggestions.
A keyboard with NKRO will do what you're calling "anti-ghosting,"
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unfortunately the cherry ML4100 series is not found with diodes, and has 2KRO across the board (or rather, all examples I have yet seen do) Coupled with that is likely the least-useful matrix I've yet seen. Sadly this is not the KB you want.
Now if you were DIY-minded, you could replace the PCB and controller, but that would be quite the undertaking. Still, many people identify what they need and then go for it.
Another option as to a Keyboard with NKRO and low travel switches would be one using RAFI or ITW hall effect switches. They don't need diodes to achieve NKRO, and may be ideal for you. They are less common, though.
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Most usb keyboards only support 6 key presses at a time unless they do something funky. A PS/2 keyboard with diodes on every switch is the easiest way to make sure that every keypress will register correctly.
With that said I advise you look at the WASD v2, it has a very simple design (just a black piece of plastic, no flashy logo, no backlight, etc). If you use the ps2 adapter that comes with the box then you can press down as many keys as you want and they will all register correctly.
There are other mechanical keyboards out there with NKRO and various levels of minimalism. I know a lot of people here tote that Filco's have great build quality and design. If you want there are also some custom cases on the market for them.
Note: NKRO means that any amount of keys can be pressed at the same time and register correctly. This is the same thing that you mean by anti-ghosting.
Edit: I read over this thread again. I guess tall keys are a deal breaker for you. That sure does limit the number of choices. I would ignore this post and hope that some of the suggestions everyone else posts here are good :)
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The Cherry MX 3.0 boards have quite low profile keycaps and it has NKRO according to their website. Still has 4mm travel, but it might be something for you.
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Cherry MX switches aren't going to fly for playing fighting games. The real issue here is the key travel, not the cap size.
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use Oring or pad landing for less travel :-X
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Hitboxes have the jump button in the wrong place, huge buttons with too much space between them, and are just big, clunky and noisy overall so I'll pass on that.
I don't care what switch my keyboard has (the one I linked in the first post uses an ancient type as far as i know); i just need something wieldy (flat, not too much resistance) and functional (doesn't eat inputs). You'd think it'd be possible to get a decent keyboard in this day and age :/
I bunch of posts came in while i wrote this so I'll do some more searching with the given keyboards/brands, though everything I've seen so far has been keyboards with tall keys.
EDIT: That Cherry MX thing might do the trick if it's comfy enough and won't eat my inputs.
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Cherry MX switches aren't going to fly for playing fighting games. The real issue here is the key travel, not the cap size.
I can play FPS just fine, even with MX Blues which some people like to call a "typing switch" :rolleyes:
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You won't really find a mech that fits your goals. esp on the low profile, you'd have better luck getting a scissor switch board from razer or another " gaming " company
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Cherry MX switches aren't going to fly for playing fighting games. The real issue here is the key travel, not the cap size.
I can play FPS just fine, even with MX Blues which some people like to call a "typing switch" :rolleyes:
Fighting games are different. Missing a 1-frame link can easily turn a would-be-victory into defeat. I can play any other type of game on your average 1980's keyboard.
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I don't think this thread starter, knows the difference between "anti ghosting" and key rollover.
Which are two completely different things.
Ghosting is when you hit a key, and a completely different key was actuated instead...
Most keyboards already support this aside from cheap flat chiclet keyboard which this guy wants.
Very contradictory.
I think he really wants N key roll over.. but he calls it "anti ghosting".
I blame gaming peripheral companies for mixing the two terms.
I feel sorry for this poor fella who wants a keyboard that pretty much doesn't exist.
Flat membrany keys/scissor switches with a high key roll over. or "Anti Ghosting" which he demands
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I googled a bit and found a scissor switch keyboard that claims N-key rollover (http://www.capacity-keyboard.com/kb-801N.html). Might be what you are looking for.
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There are some one-handed gaming keyboards that at least look like they are low-profile, but I think they might be too oriented around the WASD cluster and those keys.
The Wolf King Warrior line look like they are low-profile, not scissor-switch, but low key travel. Very unusual keyboard layout, intended for FPS games. I have heard that the key action could feel a bit spongy, though..
How about a separate arcade stick controller for PC? These have buttons with low travel. Don't you like joysticks, or are the compatibility problems too great?
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I googled a bit and found a scissor switch keyboard that claims N-key rollover (http://www.capacity-keyboard.com/kb-801N.html). Might be what you are looking for.
i found that as well. seems like it's exactly what he's looking for.
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I googled a bit and found a scissor switch keyboard that claims N-key rollover (http://www.capacity-keyboard.com/kb-801N.html). Might be what you are looking for.
i found that as well. seems like it's exactly what he's looking for.
Since the cherry keyboards was not his taste that must be it.
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FWIW WASD's Code keyboard is supposed to "minimalistic" - http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/code-keyboard.html
Or something like that, anyway ...
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FWIW WASD's Code keyboard is supposed to "minimalistic" - http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/code-keyboard.html
Or something like that, anyway ...
It's pretty much the same as the WASD v2 I mentioned but with backlighting and a different switch (used to be clear, now green). The OP has gotten pretty clear he doesn't want high travel keys and instead wants something more chicklet style.
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The cheap scissor switches and their membranes are unlikely to have diodes, and thereby are unlikely to have NKRO. The design and cost goals are completely opposed, and very nearly mutually exclusive. Even the built-in keyboard on my RoG laptop isn't that, they just have a fairly sparse matrix around WASD because it's a gaming laptop. In fact, when I hold WAD and UIOP and then press S I get a ghost 6 instead. There are probably other combinations. Whenever there is a membrane involved there is no feasible way to increase KRO; even with a model M - the only way I can think of to do it is if you have a way of designing and then printing your own membrane and having all key traces run off to the side to a bank of diodes for each switch, which sounds pretty unreasonable to me.
TL;DR - You'll probably just have to get a fightstick or deal with "tall keys".
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Cherry ML4100?
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Cherry ML4100?
As I said it's only 2KRO. Here's the post for convenience.
unfortunately the cherry ML4100 series is not found with diodes, and has 2KRO across the board (or rather, all examples I have yet seen do) Coupled with that is likely the least-useful matrix I've yet seen. Sadly this is not the KB you want.
I feel sorry for this poor fella who wants a keyboard that pretty much doesn't exist.
I said it already: RAFI makes low profile hall effect keyboards with NKRO already. They're not common but they do exist.
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Cherry ML4100?
As I said it's only 2KRO. Here's the post for convenience.
unfortunately the cherry ML4100 series is not found with diodes, and has 2KRO across the board (or rather, all examples I have yet seen do) Coupled with that is likely the least-useful matrix I've yet seen. Sadly this is not the KB you want.
I feel sorry for this poor fella who wants a keyboard that pretty much doesn't exist.
I said it already: RAFI makes low profile hall effect keyboards with NKRO already. They're not common but they do exist.
I do most of my gaming on a ML4100 and haven't run into any problems with ghosting or 2KRO.
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My flat Logitech keyboard looks to have 2mm travel without using scissor switches so i don't see how I'm looking for something impossible.
I don't think this thread starter, knows the difference between "anti ghosting" and key rollover.
Which are two completely different things.
Ghosting is when you hit a key, and a completely different key was actuated instead...
Most keyboards already support this aside from cheap flat chiclet keyboard which this guy wants.
Very contradictory.
I think he really wants N key roll over.. but he calls it "anti ghosting".
I blame gaming peripheral companies for mixing the two terms.
I feel sorry for this poor fella who wants a keyboard that pretty much doesn't exist.
Flat membrany keys/scissor switches with a high key roll over. or "Anti Ghosting" which he demands
Now i know.
How about a separate arcade stick controller for PC? These have buttons with low travel. Don't you like joysticks, or are the compatibility problems too great?
Don't like 'em.
Since the cherry keyboards was not his taste that must be it.
Eh? I said the cherry MX 3.0 might be just right.
I googled a bit and found a scissor switch keyboard that claims N-key rollover (http://www.capacity-keyboard.com/kb-801N.html). Might be what you are looking for.
This one looks even better though. Thanks!
I do most of my gaming on a ML4100 and haven't run into any problems with ghosting or 2KRO.
But do you play fighting games? They're the only type of game where this is a real problem as far as i know. Maybe some form of rhythm games would too.
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I'm really curious how that membrane keyboard achieves NKRO. If you choose to go with it, please come back and tell us how it works out!
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I'm really curious how that membrane keyboard achieves NKRO. If you choose to go with it, please come back and tell us how it works out!
Well, if you set it up as a 104*1 matrix you can easily get NKRO. Another option is to go resistive, like the microsoft one does.
Edit: looknig at the specifications, I'd be wary. It says it supports USB 1.1, which I think can only do 6KRO + 4 modifiers (like what most NKRO capable keyborads will do over USB, to maintain compatability with USB 1.1)
I checked on digimore patents (https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=pts&hl=en&q=inassignee:%22Digimore+Electronics+Co.,+Ltd.%22), and I can only see a US patent for their bluetooth KB (https://www.google.com/patents/US20130331035)
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Well if it can handle any combination of 6 buttons at the same time then that's good enough for me. If it doesn't work then i could return it. I'm finding a bunch of suppliers but no sellers though.
Thanks btw.
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I'm really curious how that membrane keyboard achieves NKRO.
Me too. Reading their engrish description it seems to be capacitive. Maybe the membrane layers don't make contact at all.
What makes me wary is that NKRO seems to be switched off by default. Why would you do that.
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I'm really curious how that membrane keyboard achieves NKRO.
Me too. Reading their engrish description it seems to be capacitive. Maybe the membrane layers don't make contact at all.
What makes me wary is that NKRO seems to be switched off by default. Why would you do that.
It's common on the keyboards that are switchable. They usually play some sort of game to achieve NKRO, and to have better compatibility with OSX and BIOSes, they leave full NKRO off by default.
It's sort of like the difference between a stable and testing build. Stable isn't as fast or featureful, bit it's more workable. The testing is faster and includes more features but sometimes fails to work. That's the way I see it at least.
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Cherry ML4100?
As I said it's only 2KRO. Here's the post for convenience.
unfortunately the cherry ML4100 series is not found with diodes, and has 2KRO across the board (or rather, all examples I have yet seen do) Coupled with that is likely the least-useful matrix I've yet seen. Sadly this is not the KB you want.
I feel sorry for this poor fella who wants a keyboard that pretty much doesn't exist.
I said it already: RAFI makes low profile hall effect keyboards with NKRO already. They're not common but they do exist.
I do most of my gaming on a ML4100 and haven't run into any problems with ghosting or 2KRO.
I can press all arrow keys + 2 WASD keys and have them all register.
I can press A, D, and either W or S. I can also press W,S, and not A or D.
There is also a 6 key maximum.
I've played rhythm games, tons of FPS games, MMOs, RPGs, RTS, and MOBA.
If you can think of any key combos you need I'll tell you if they work or not.
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I will also additionally test them with my G80-4101SPAUS
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I've played rhythm games, tons of FPS games, MMOs, RPGs, RTS, and MOBA.
If you can think of any key combos you need I'll tell you if they work or not.
Well there's stuff like:
HJAZ
HJSX
HJDC
JKAZ
JKSX
JKDC
HUAZ
HUSX
HUDC
UKAZ
UKSX
UKDC
HJZXC
HJASD
JKZXC
JKASD
Or better yet, stuff like HJZXC, down, right, numpad1, numpad2, numpad3 for side-by-side offline play. The need for this can be avoided by having two keyboards, but that'll usually force the players into uncomfortable sitting positions because of the desk space it requires. Not a situation i find myself in often, but it'd be nice to be able to do it without half an hour of trial and error to find a setup that even half-works.
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I've played rhythm games, tons of FPS games, MMOs, RPGs, RTS, and MOBA.
If you can think of any key combos you need I'll tell you if they work or not.
Well there's stuff like:
HJAZ
HJSX
HJDC
JKAZ
JKSX
JKDC
HUAZ
HUSX
HUDC
UKAZ
UKSX
UKDC
HJZXC
HJASD
JKZXC
JKASD
Or better yet, stuff like HJZXC, down, right, numpad1, numpad2, numpad3 for side-by-side offline play. The need for this can be avoided by having two keyboards, but that'll usually force the players into uncomfortable sitting positions because of the desk space it requires. Not a situation i find myself in often, but it'd be nice to be able to do it without half an hour of trial and error to find a setup that even half-works.
Both my Leopold and Ducky register all of those combos*, although I could not figure out how to do the combo in the paragraph with only two hands.
Also, how about a Phantom with ML keycaps and pre-programmed macros? For that matter, DSA keycaps on a Phantom?
- Ron | samwisekoi
*Tested in Linux.
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Changing the caps on a functioning keyboard might be just as good; I'll look into that. Thanks.
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NKRO membrane keyboard aren't entirely uncommon. There's the Skydigital Nkey-1 and Nkey-2, and QSenn GP-K8000 and GP-K8000U, for instance. All of these seem to use the method of having one membrane layer with an independent line for each key. Unlike the digimore, though, these all use full travel keys. What I don't know is if there's any way to get the KB-801N without having to buy 1000 of them and resell 999.
USB 1.1 should not be a problem for NKRO over USB. The last time I checked-- though, it's been a while since I've checked up on this issue, and things may very well have changed since then-- all mainstream keyboards that deliver NKRO over USB do so by using "tricks" such as registering as multiple keyboards, and not by utilizing the capabilities of USB 2.0.
Both my Leopold and Ducky register all of those combos*, although I could not figure out how to do the combo in the paragraph with only two hands.
He wants to be able to have two people playing an all-keyboard game at the same keyboard.
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Get a Sidewinder X4, saw off the wrist rest?
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Get a Sidewinder X4, saw off the wrist rest?
A saw is just plain boring. What about using a dremel or a lasercutter? Just a plain sidewinder looks like a good choice for op
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Get a Sidewinder X4, saw off the wrist rest?
A saw is just plain boring. What about using a dremel or a lasercutter? Just a plain sidewinder looks like a good choice for op
Plasma cutter.
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Get a Sidewinder X4, saw off the wrist rest?
A saw is just plain boring. What about using a dremel or a lasercutter? Just a plain sidewinder looks like a good choice for op
Plasma cutter.
Agreed, much more awesome.
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Get a Sidewinder X4, saw off the wrist rest?
While it has 6KRO, it is not compact. The wrist rest is not hollow on the underside, so you would have to rebuild a new front.
BTW, the right way to cut the wrist rest off would be with an industrial band-saw at low speed.
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HJAZ- Doesn't work
HJSX- Doesn't work
HJDC- Doesn't work
JKAZ- Doesn't work
JKSX- Doesn't work
JKDC- Doesn't work
HUAZ- Doesn't work
HUSX- Doesn't work
HUDC- Doesn't work
UKAZ- Works
UKSX- Works
UKDC- Works
HJZXC- Works
HJASD- Works
JKZXC- Works
JKASD- Doesn't work
HJZXC, down, right, numpad1, numpad2, numpad3- Too many keys.
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I don't think this thread starter, knows the difference between "anti ghosting" and key rollover.
Which are two completely different things.
Oups... I also stand corrected - I have to admit I didn't know the difference between the two. :-[
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I don't think this thread starter, knows the difference between "anti ghosting" and key rollover.
Which are two completely different things.
Oups... I also stand corrected - I have to admit I didn't know the difference between the two. :-[
you have 2k posts on this forum, yet you still don't know keyboarding basics.
dummy....
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I don't think this thread starter, knows the difference between "anti ghosting" and key rollover.
Which are two completely different things.
Oups... I also stand corrected - I have to admit I didn't know the difference between the two. :-[
you have 2k posts on this forum, yet you still don't know keyboarding basics.
dummy....
I have 10k posts.
What's this "keyboard" thing you people keep talking about?
Can I get one too?
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I don't think this thread starter, knows the difference between "anti ghosting" and key rollover.
Which are two completely different things.
Oups... I also stand corrected - I have to admit I didn't know the difference between the two. :-[
If you haven't looked it up by now, anti-ghosting prevents random inputs from being detected because of a crappy matrix system, while KRO allows a certain number of keys to be pressed without blocking.