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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: IKSLM on Mon, 24 March 2014, 13:13:31

Title: best of mx reds
Post by: IKSLM on Mon, 24 March 2014, 13:13:31
So, i am looking for a high quality mx-red keyboard. What are my options? I already have the majestouch 2 with reds and i am looking for something "similar". I also do not want any sort of back/cap lighting, this means a "non-gaming" board (looks are not important).
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: daerid on Mon, 24 March 2014, 13:16:23
That's pretty much top of the line right there.

You could go with a WASD V2, the QuickFire Rapids are great quality but low cost, Ducky, Corsair K70 (kinda a gaming board). There's tons. Are you looking for a particular form factor (TKL, 60%, full size, etc)?
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: epzy on Mon, 24 March 2014, 13:17:12
In my eyes, you already have the best stock keyboard, but WASD V2 is very similar. Perhaps you could go for a custom keyboard?
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: IKSLM on Mon, 24 March 2014, 13:21:59
I am looking for a full size board (the smallest i can live with is TKL).

I already had a "custom" WASD V1, but was not really happy with the caps quality and they seem to be out of reds at the moment.

So i guess the only remaining option is a completely custom keyboard?
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: hcry4 on Mon, 24 March 2014, 13:22:12
I have the Filco Limited Edition Linear R. It's just an earlier limited run of your keyboard, but it's the best one with MX Red that I own or have owned. I had a Leopold with MX Red, which I have since sold and still have a few 60% with MX Red that just don't match the Limited R. The MiniLa is close though, but it's just a terrible layout.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: IKSLM on Mon, 24 March 2014, 13:28:13
So you all are saying that i should simply buy another filco?  :D
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: BlueBär on Mon, 24 March 2014, 13:54:43
Quote from: IKSLM on Mon, 24 March 2014, 13:28:13
So you all are saying that i should simply buy another filco?  :D

You could also invest in some nice caps for your Filco or go all out and get a custom.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: Lastpilot on Mon, 24 March 2014, 13:58:33
Quote from: BlueBär on Mon, 24 March 2014, 13:54:43
Quote from: IKSLM on Mon, 24 March 2014, 13:28:13
So you all are saying that i should simply buy another filco?  :D

You could also invest in some nice caps for your Filco or go all out and get a custom.
CUSTOMMMMMMMM (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56112.msg1266246#msg1266246)
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: eth0s on Mon, 24 March 2014, 14:03:06
Quote from: IKSLM on Mon, 24 March 2014, 13:13:31
So, i am looking for a high quality mx-red keyboard. What are my options? I already have the majestouch 2 with reds and i am looking for something "similar". I also do not want any sort of back/cap lighting, this means a "non-gaming" board (looks are not important).

You're not going to find a "better" keyboard than the Filco MJ-2, just different.  So you can either invest $500 in a Kustom Keyboard, or try a different type of switch.  And if you like MX reds, you are a perfect candidate for Topre.  Topre are not like MX reds, but if you like reds, you will probably like Topre.  It's hard to explain, until you try Topre.  I highly recommend going to Topre before getting another MX red keyboard. 
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: IKSLM on Mon, 24 March 2014, 14:09:39
Had topre, did not like it too much, sold it. Sticking with reds.

Oh well, a filco with some nice doubleshots might do the trick.

How about some old(er) cherry keyboard with blacks? I could swap the springs to 45g?
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: CPTBadAss on Mon, 24 March 2014, 14:11:39
Quote from: IKSLM on Mon, 24 March 2014, 14:09:39
How about some old(er) cherry keyboard with blacks? I could swap the springs to 45g?

It's actually easy to mod older Cherry boards like the 1800 or the 3000 because there's no Plate. So yes you could swap it to 45g.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: BlueBär on Mon, 24 March 2014, 14:12:09
Quote from: IKSLM on Mon, 24 March 2014, 14:09:39
How about some old(er) cherry keyboard with blacks? I could swap the springs to 45g?

Sure why not, however the quality will probably not be better than the Filco. Also watch out with spring weights: 45g is the actuation force, but Korean springs usually get measured when they bottom out. The closest to reds would be 62g springs.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: daerid on Mon, 24 March 2014, 14:17:51
Personally I hated PCB mounted reds. Idunno exactly why, but they felt wrong. But plate mounted reds are awesome.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: IKSLM on Mon, 24 March 2014, 14:35:32
But if i use old blacks and mod them with springs, that will make for a smooth switch (people say that old blacks are smoother). Which in turn will make the keyboard feel more of high quality. Or is that just a placebo?
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: CPTBadAss on Mon, 24 March 2014, 14:41:28
Quote from: IKSLM on Mon, 24 March 2014, 14:35:32
But if i use old blacks and mod them with springs, that will make for a smooth switch (people say that old blacks are smoother). Which in turn will make the keyboard feel more of high quality. Or is that just a placebo?

I'm not convinced that vintage blacks automatically means a smoother feel. I've had batches of vintage blacks that feel the same as stock blacks and have felt some that are smoother than stock blacks. I'd take what people say with a grain of salt.

Typically people like plate mounted switches since the plate makes the board feel heftier and more solid. PCB mounted boards tend to have some flex.

But more than anything? It's personal opinion. You'll have to try and decide for yourself.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: BlueBär on Mon, 24 March 2014, 14:46:35
Quote from: IKSLM on Mon, 24 March 2014, 14:35:32
But if i use old blacks and mod them with springs, that will make for a smooth switch (people say that old blacks are smoother). Which in turn will make the keyboard feel more of high quality. Or is that just a placebo?

Oh, you're talking about vintage blacks! Some say it's a placebo but in my opinion there definately is a difference. It really depends from keyboard to keyboard (I agree with Captain here), but if you get your hands on a good batch they are a lot smoother in comparison to normal blacks. You could get an old keyboard with blacks (pre 1990 keyboards usually have vintage blacks iirc), harvest the switches from that and solder them into your Filco.
Another option is lubing your switches which will also make them very smooth.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: Internet Friend on Mon, 24 March 2014, 15:52:43
If you want to make your Filco functionally more useful get one of bpiphany's programmable controllers (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46700.0) and really customize the layout to suit your use. Then you can try hardware changes like new caps, lube, switch stickers, ect. Really if all you want is a plain keyboard I don't see a reason to go out and buy an entirely new board. Take the Filco you have and make it "your own" and you'll probably feel more satisfied with it.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: rowdy on Mon, 24 March 2014, 18:17:27
You could also try a Ducky Zero.  Or a QFR.  Both are highly recommended (although perhaps half a peg lower than the Filco, but also lower in price).
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: zig_ziglar on Mon, 24 March 2014, 19:28:29
What exactly is it about the boards you have that you don't like? Maybe the thing you dislike is the switch itself!? Not necessarily the feel of the switch travel, but maybe the keycap wobble inherent in MX switches? I think you will be hard pressed to find a board that feels more solid than a MJ2 or WASD without going full custom (ie solid aluminium body and thick steel switch plate).
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: IKSLM on Tue, 25 March 2014, 02:56:15
Well maybe i am looking for a keyboard that comes with doubleshots / metal backplate and such goodies by default. It is not that i do not like the filco, it is a great keyboard but where it lacks, are the caps (i have been using mine for about a year and the print is already fading...). I could buy the replacement caps, but my filco is ISO 105 and the good keycaps sets are rare to come by.

So i guees the only way to "upgrade" my experience is by going full custom.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: IKSLM on Tue, 25 March 2014, 13:48:54
What about the "das keyboard"? I see there is a red switch version.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: kinruan on Tue, 25 March 2014, 13:56:44
i don't like plate mount reds and  i blame the steel plate. i think that  all the counterforce of my clicking force from PCB is enlarged by the steel plate so it hurts my finger, especially when it is MX Red. which is very light.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: kinruan on Tue, 25 March 2014, 13:57:49
Quote from: IKSLM on Tue, 25 March 2014, 13:48:54
What about the "das keyboard"? I see there is a red switch version.
i would say all coaster boards are good, though only the PCB of DAS is made by coaster now.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: eth0s on Tue, 25 March 2014, 15:12:12
Quote from: IKSLM on Tue, 25 March 2014, 13:48:54
What about the "das keyboard"? I see there is a red switch version.

Quote from: IKSLM on Tue, 25 March 2014, 02:56:15
Well maybe i am looking for a keyboard that comes with doubleshots / metal backplate and such goodies by default. It is not that i do not like the filco, it is a great keyboard but where it lacks, are the caps (i have been using mine for about a year and the print is already fading...). I could buy the replacement caps, but my filco is ISO 105 and the good keycaps sets are rare to come by.

So i guees the only way to "upgrade" my experience is by going full custom.

First:  Well, you like MX reds, but you don't like Topre?  I guess you really like linear feel.  Have you tried the RealForce Silent ergonomically-weighted keyboard?  You will probably love the 30g Topre switches along the edges.  They are like "puffy" reds.  The have a like a "puff" of air feeling at the top of the keystroke (even though no puff of air actually comes out), and then they have a smooth linear feel for the rest of the keystroke.  Some GH'er modified a Topre board to be all 30g, IIRC, so it's possible to modify a RealForce keyboard to all 30g.

Second:  vintage blacks are very nice indeed.  I can sell you a WYSE terminal keyboard with 105 vintage MX black switches from the early '90's.  They are smooth as butter.  PM me if you're interested.  The old WYSE terminal keyboards have plate mounted switches, so you will have to desolder them to get them off.

Third:  As for "upgrading" your user experience, I think it's time to start managing your expectations.  By going full custom, you will spend a lot of money, and you may or may not be disappointed in the results.  Going full custom will allow you to change the feel of the keyboard, by choosing plate mount, or PCB mount, metal case, PCB case, acrylic case, and then by choosing springs, lube and stickers.  Also you can buy a controller to program to match your custom preferences, e.g., swapping Caps Lock for CTRL, etc.  However all this will cost you at least $500, or more, and you will probably end up with a keyboard that is not noticeably better than your plain old Filco with MX reds.  You might also end up with a switch-bouncing ping monster, if you're not careful in the execution of the build.  Or you might end up with the greatest keyboard in the universe, I guess it depends on how much you fall in love with your own work.  Anyway, I don't want to dissuade you from building a custom keyboard, since I think every GH'er should do it at least once, but just don't assume you are going to be building the ultimate user experience, just because it's a custom job.

Fourth:  My last piece of advice is that before you jump into custom keyboards, your first step should be to get some new keycaps on that Filco.  A new set of PBT keycaps, or even ABS double-shots will vastly improve your user experience with the keyboard you already own.  Having faded and shiny OEM keycaps totally sux.  There is no other way to say it.  You can shop around on the Classifieds for a new set of keycaps.  If you have to spend $100 on a new set, then do it.   That $100 might sound expensive, but it's much cheaper than the $500 or $1,000 you're going to spend chasing your custom dreams.  Start off easy, is my advice.  Also, IMO MX reds feel really great with POM keycaps.  You can probably find a set of POM keycaps with German legends for under $50.  Something about the slick POM feel and the MX reds really goes together great.  In fact it's the best combination of feels that I can think of, in the keyboard realm.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: IKSLM on Tue, 25 March 2014, 15:25:44
Yes, i like reds, but not topre. I had the variable version and for a short while, the limited anniversary one. How should i put it, they feel a tad "mushy" and yes, "puffy". Reds feel more "sharp" and i like that.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: Lastpilot on Tue, 25 March 2014, 21:39:02
Quote from: IKSLM on Tue, 25 March 2014, 02:56:15
So i guees the only way to "upgrade" my experience is by going full custom.
Yes.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: epzy on Tue, 25 March 2014, 21:42:49
Quote from: Lastpilot on Tue, 25 March 2014, 21:39:02
Quote from: IKSLM on Tue, 25 March 2014, 02:56:15
So i guees the only way to "upgrade" my experience is by going full custom.
Yes.

He could go semi custom, and just add custom caps, case and cable - would also be an upgrade. '^' But just going fully Kustom would be best obviously.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: zig_ziglar on Tue, 25 March 2014, 21:46:17
Quote from: IKSLM on Tue, 25 March 2014, 15:25:44
Yes, i like reds, but not topre. I had the variable version and for a short while, the limited anniversary one. How should i put it, they feel a tad "mushy" and yes, "puffy". Reds feel more "sharp" and i like that.

If you push a key down slowly (red switch obviously) you can feel the resistance building. As it builds, to me, it feel as though it loses that crispness that you describe. I'm currently experimenting with raising the bottom (ie the height where the switch bottoms out) to as close to the actuation point as I can get it without interfering with reset speed.

It's not rocket science or anything - just sitting a few tightly fitting washers around the keycap stem and locking them in place with a hard rubber o-ring. Perhaps you could have a play around with such things and see if that "improves" upon the qualities you like in reds?
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: IKSLM on Wed, 26 March 2014, 03:18:03
This is the filco i have:

(http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_images/german_filco_majestouch_keyboard_large.jpg)

And the first problem is that there are (almost) no replacement keycap sets and the ones i had found, are out-of-stock.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 26 March 2014, 04:35:40
Quote from: IKSLM on Wed, 26 March 2014, 03:18:03
This is the filco i have:

Show Image
(http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_images/german_filco_majestouch_keyboard_large.jpg)


And the first problem is that there are (almost) no replacement keycap sets and the ones i had found, are out-of-stock.

If you don't mind DSA profile, this GB (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55314.0) seems to have most, if not all, of the less common keycaps that you need.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: davkol on Wed, 26 March 2014, 09:56:00
I think something like my Cherry G80-1000HAD is what you may like. Supersmooth vintage MX Black, metal backplate, thick Cherry doubleshots in ISO. Too bad I probably won't ever use it, because ErgoDox.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: IKSLM on Wed, 26 March 2014, 13:26:13
It just might :)

So no love for DAS keyboard? I mentioned it on the previous page and every one ignored it. Is it more like filco or like razer?
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: archer on Wed, 26 March 2014, 13:32:09
Have you considered a Leopold FC700R?

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47218.0;topicseen (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47218.0;topicseen)

I bought mine from Hendy, a graphite colored one with reds.

Sure, the spacebar has nonstandard stems, but if you're ok with leaving the stock caps on (for this keyboard, I'm ok with that), it's a fantastic keyboard. The PBT caps are very nice! And you'll always have that Filco to throw custom keycaps onto.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 26 March 2014, 16:04:34
Quote from: IKSLM on Wed, 26 March 2014, 13:26:13
It just might :)

So no love for DAS keyboard? I mentioned it on the previous page and every one ignored it. Is it more like filco or like razer?

The original DAS were good, but then they changed the OEM and quality dropped.

Also they have (or had) a glossy case which is a fingerprint magnet.

DSA 4 is coming out (soon?) and does not have a glossy case, see here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56317.0) for discussion.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 26 March 2014, 16:06:14
Quote from: rowdy on Wed, 26 March 2014, 16:04:34
Quote from: IKSLM on Wed, 26 March 2014, 13:26:13
It just might :)

So no love for DAS keyboard? I mentioned it on the previous page and every one ignored it. Is it more like filco or like razer?

The original DAS were good, but then they changed the OEM and quality dropped.

Also they have (or had) a glossy case which is a fingerprint magnet.

DSA 4 is coming out (soon?) and does not have a glossy case, see here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56317.0) for discussion.

The original DAS was a keytronic-made rubber dome. One could argue that the quality rose when the switched their OEM to cherry for the DAS II. AFAIK, the glossy case made it's debut when they switched their OEM again to costar for the DAS III.

The DAS IV looks nice, but since it's not out, we have yet to determine it's actual quality. It's also not available in a linear switch.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: BlueBär on Wed, 26 March 2014, 16:38:38
Quote from: dorkvader on Wed, 26 March 2014, 16:06:14
The original DAS was a keytronic-made rubber dome. One could argue that the quality rose when the switched their OEM to cherry for the DAS II. AFAIK, the glossy case made it's debut when they switched their OEM again to costar for the DAS III.

What rowdy is referring to is that the manufacturer of the Das III is no more Costar.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 26 March 2014, 16:46:26
Quote from: dorkvader on Wed, 26 March 2014, 16:06:14
Quote from: rowdy on Wed, 26 March 2014, 16:04:34
Quote from: IKSLM on Wed, 26 March 2014, 13:26:13
It just might :)

So no love for DAS keyboard? I mentioned it on the previous page and every one ignored it. Is it more like filco or like razer?

The original DAS were good, but then they changed the OEM and quality dropped.

Also they have (or had) a glossy case which is a fingerprint magnet.

DSA 4 is coming out (soon?) and does not have a glossy case, see here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56317.0) for discussion.

The original DAS was a keytronic-made rubber dome. One could argue that the quality rose when the switched their OEM to cherry for the DAS II. AFAIK, the glossy case made it's debut when they switched their OEM again to costar for the DAS III.

The DAS IV looks nice, but since it's not out, we have yet to determine it's actual quality. It's also not available in a linear switch.

Knowledge is a wonderful thing - I hope to acquire some one day :p
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: IKSLM on Tue, 20 May 2014, 13:57:46
Ok, conclusion: i bought a thick PBT set and i'm loving it!  :thumb:

(http://i.imgur.com/LCkvkbq.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/WPmwuZc.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/cRg4mnc.jpg)
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: aref on Tue, 20 May 2014, 19:09:15
The best MX Red keyboard I've used, thus far, is a Corsair Vengeance K65. It excellent for typing, so long as you like MX Red switches.
I had used buckling spring, other Cherry MX switches, and Topres; but I return to my K65 keyboard with MX Red key switches. I like to
so much that I picked up a second one to have on hand. I tried CMQFR in MX Red, but the feel was different from the K65. For me, the
Corsair is a comfortable keyboard that never disappoints. I use it stock, no mods necessary.
Title: Re: best of mx reds
Post by: IKSLM on Wed, 21 May 2014, 14:57:34
I did some typing on K65 and was not impressed. You should really try some filco :)