geekhack
geekhack Marketplace => Great Finds => Topic started by: nowsharing on Fri, 03 April 2009, 10:52:15
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I don't know exactly what this is yet, but I snagged it for $15 shipped (the seller made me a deal). I'm pretty sure it's an early model m that was sold bundled with a 3191.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170302540446 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170302540446)
Any ideas? It has the early square logo, and what looks like an AT connector.
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I'm not sure if it will work with a PC or not, but I'd think it's well worth what you gave for it for the parts alone. It looks very clean as well, at least in the photos.
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Yeah, It's probably XT, but maybe I'll luck out. It sure looks good though.
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It seems that the 3191 shipped with keyboard part no. 1390123 (102 key) and 1390128 (108 key). I wonder how similar the 1390123 is to the 1390120...
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Judging by the markings on the keys, it looks like a Terminal keyboard.
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You could probably get a 3191 interfaced to a Linux box by telling it you've got a 3270 connected... but you'll need the terminal and monitor, too.
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The 108 key 'board sounds very interesting, where did you find that info?
The plug is most likely a 5 pin DIN with the pins spread around a 240 degree arc, unlike XT/AT/MIDI plugs with the pins in a 180 arc, so it's physically different and won't fit.
There is a kbdbabel (http://www.kbdbabel.org/) adapter for this.
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Here are some links to what I discovered in an investigation the other day:
This is the site where I saw the 1390123 & 1390128 listed as being parts of the IBM 3191 Terminal: 3 (http://www.cygnussupply.com/search.php?part_num=1390123&manufacturer=IBM), and 8 (http://www.cygnussupply.com/search.php?part_num=1390238&manufacturer=IBM).
1390123 is listed as an AT Terminal Keyboard here, interestingly - http://www.etiexpress.com/i/IBM/1390123.html (http://www.etiexpress.com/i/IBM/1390123.html) Again that's probably nothing to get excited over, as I don't have the monitor and whatnots.
edit: Ahh, they probably don't mean an AT Keyboard, I think they are referring to the IBM AT Computer (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/IBM_PC/AT).
Thanks for the info DW. I looked around that site and can't find an ordering area. Is it possible to order their parts, or are they all for homebrewers? I run Linux Mint alongside windows, and even if I could just use this for linux it woudl be worth it. Otherwise the keyboard will be resigned to a parts stock for my ps2 model m.
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Your links point to part numbers 1390123 and 1390238.
Looking up the earliest announcement letter for the 3191 (http://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/index.wss?DocURL=http://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/rep_ca/7/897/ENUS186-117/index.html&InfoType=AN&InfoSubType=CA&InfoDesc=Announcement+Letters&panelurl=index.wss%3Fbuttonpressed%3DNAV002PT090&paneltext=Announcement+letter+search) at http://www.ibm.com/news/usalet , it shows that part number 1390123 is the Enhanced option, and P/N 1390238 is the 122 Typewriter option, which probably looks like this (http://www.9999hp.net/keyboard/temp/1389260.jpg) (that's for the 3180, but same design). Was 108 a typo, or perhaps a reseller that can't count?
AT here probably just refers to the fact that the keyboard plug is a 5 pin DIN (from the vendor's perspective, never mind that the pins are different...), from years later when AT and PS/2 just came to mean the plug on the end of the cable, the keyboard itself assumed to be PC compatible. Calling the type 5170 PC/AT a terminal doesn't really make any sense.
I don't know what the plans are for kbdbabel, but as it stands, yeah, all that's there is - the invaluable information, but no shop (maybe that's not the point of the site?...). I'm not sure what to suggest, but it is perfectly possible to get PCBs fabricated and populated even in one-off quantities.
Dare I mention the thought of some group effort in the future?...
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I must be crazy because I just went through my entire history from yesterday trying to find a page mentioning a 108-key, and found nothing. You're right that the 122-key was the only other option, maybe I wrote 8 because of the last digit of the part no... Too much investigating I guess :)
So the connection is neither XT nor AT, and neither is the signal? I understand that the reason a simple adapter doesn't work with XT is because of the different signal, thus requiring a converter, is that the same case with this keyboard? I don't have enough experience with electronics to make any kind of converter or board, but I could change out the connector for another if that would work (AT or PS2)...but I don't expect that it would.
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I have a feeling that the later DEC terminal keyboards had 108 keys, if that has anything to do with it. Particularly with IBM, the sheer volume of numbers involved when investigating can get pretty confusing...
I've been trying to think how to easily summarise exactly what the differences are... If you like, check out the history lesson section at http://www.computer-engineering.org/index.php?title=PS/2_Keyboard_Interface ; as I understand, these terminal keyboards use the bi-directional interface [way it talks/listens] and scan code set 3 [the data it sends], but report different keyboard IDs during initialisation to PS/2 'boards, and so wouldn't be identified by most PC BIOSs and would cause an error. Also, scan code set 3 never caught on due to being optional and so support is limited (see the heading "Use" here (http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/kbd/scancodes-10.html#ss10.5), points vi, viii and ix especially).
So, it's not really that far from "just working", but alas far enough away that a connector change probably won't make it work.
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Well translated, thanks! Now I basically understand what the differences are.
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What is the verdict? Does the 1390123 work on a pc?
thanks......
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anything with the early square logo cant be all bad ;)
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What is the verdict? Does the 1390123 work on a pc?
I'm afraid that I won't have the definitive answer until Dec when I return home, however I'm fairly sure that it won't work with modern pcs.
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Here's an idea...... if someone has a model m that works with a pc but has missing keys, non functioning keys, etc. What I would do is just take the circuit board and put it into these 101/102 keyboards
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anything with the early square logo cant be all bad ;)
I disagree: http://lawyersusadcdicta.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/enron.jpg
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In one of Brian Oneil's latest auctions, he verifies that the 1390123 is for point-of-sale equipment. It is therefore not compatible with modern pcs.
Here's an idea...... if someone has a model m that works with a pc but has missing keys, non functioning keys, etc. What I would do is just take the circuit board and put it into these 101/102 keyboards
I'm going to do this eventually. I'll start a thread when I try it out.
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Ignore, already posted.