geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: berserkfan on Mon, 07 April 2014, 12:36:47
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I just bought a Model M SSK keyboard that I suspect was originally from some junk shop on Taobao. It came to me with quite a number of missing rivets already, but seller (a GHer) had assured me it was working fine. When it reached me I heard a rattling sound and after testing the keyboard, found the arrow keys not actuating at all.
I opened the SSK to find another two rivets had popped out. Most importantly, there were no intact rivets on the bottom right of the keyboard (when looking from above ie at the key legends). In other words, there were no intact rivets below the arrow key cluster.
I do not have the ability to do bolt modding, and am definitely going to return this to the seller. I’ll file a complaint if necessary. But most importantly, I’d like to take advantage of this opportunity to learn something. How we can tell that something was glue modded, or a frankenboard, or anything. What should I look out for? Is it possible that the keyboard was already flawed and the seller stuck the rivets on with superglue and hoped for the best, or was I merely unlucky that whilst in transit to me, two crucial rivets fell off from the area that had already lost most of its rivets?
The fact that nearly all the rivets are intact on one side and nearly all are lost on the other side of the keyboard has raised my eyebrows. Did this keyboard sustain a bad fall in the past? There is a piece of broken plastic inside the right side of the keyboard, but the external casing is reasonably intact with more scuffing on the right side than the left side but no obvious cracks. Nothing I would consider significant damage.
I am trying to determine whether seller is honest but unlucky, or dishonest. If the latter, I am going to escalate to a dispute immediately. For now I am assuming the first.
Here is a photo of the disaster area and another photo from the left side of the keyboard. If I work things out amicably with the seller I won’t show the identifying sticker on the center. In any case I don’t see anything that appears out of place but I don’t know what to look for. The two dropped-out rivets look no different from the other rivets that fell out of my other Model M terminal keyboards. IE there are no obvious signs of hot gluing.
Finally, let me add that I have some IBM Model M122s and 139xxxx 101keys. All of them have lost at least 1 rivet, but there's no sustained pattern - eg none of my other keyboards have all or most rivets lost from any single area. The fact that this keyboard has so many rivets lost from one side really perturbs me.
[attach=1]
This is from the left side of the keyboard, ie the part under wasdzcx etc.
[attach=2]
This is from the right side, ie under the arrow cluster.
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If you squeeze the keyboard assembly in that area do the arrow keys work?
Exactly which keys are failing? Did you run it through aquatest?
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I’d like to take advantage of this opportunity to learn something.
I am trying to determine whether seller is honest but unlucky, or dishonest.
Finally, let me add that I have some IBM Model M122s and 139xxxx 101keys.
You probably answered several of your own questions. I always maintain low expectations for used keyboards that are decades old. Is this keyboard approximately as old as you are? If so, this is probably not what would be considered excessive damage.
In another thread, 1 Avid Collector presented the idea of adding screws to broken rivet shafts and it was discussed, which would be an easy way around dismantling the internal components, and might bring the keyboard back to good working condition with a minimum of effort.
The photos you attached look pretty typical to me.
I have never returned a keyboard because I take it for granted that I am taking a risk every time.
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If you squeeze the keyboard assembly in that area do the arrow keys work?
Exactly which keys are failing? Did you run it through aquatest?
Oh, great ideas! Now is really too late but I'll try it out tomorrow.
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u can do partial bolt mod, just bolt mod the the holes where rivets are missing. much better than glue because u can torque it to ur liking. if u press the board and glue it down and u over press it then you'll have glue down board and you might have problems with some stabilizers getting stuck, if u don't press it hard enough then you have glued down board that still have keys that wont register. Reason that Unicomp does it proper with rivets which are acting like glue is because they have the proper tools to do so, we don't, so rivets are best for home modification and you can play with the torqueing, but once you glue it.... oh well....
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u can do partial bolt mod, just bolt mod the the holes where rivets are missing. much better than glue because u can torque it to ur liking. if u press the board and glue it down and u over press it then you'll have glue down board and you might have problems with some stabilizers getting stuck, if u don't press it hard enough then you have glued down board that still have keys that wont register. Reason that Unicomp does it proper with rivets which are acting like glue is because they have the proper tools to do so, we don't, so rivets are best for home modification and you can play with the torqueing, but once you glue it.... oh well....
Bazemk, doesn't that involve getting a tiny drill bit and drilling very precisely in the black spots ie where the rivets are? I don't see myself doing it correctly. I think you need a stand up drill/ press drill or something that doesn't rely on human hands to steady the drill and can come down directly.
In any case I do not have access to something like that. I do not know any workshop. I am very frustrated, because this is my most expensive keyboard purchase ever, and it is a dud, and if seller doesn't respond soon I'm just going to escalate the complaint.
Oh, and Fohat, unlike you I cannot fix these things. And I wouldn't have paid the price I did if it was a frankenboard from Taobao. You say you have never returned something to the seller, but you have also never paid so much. If you basically buy at low prices from garage sales where everything is being sold as is of course you have nothing to complain about and every reason to expect you may need to work on the keyboard.
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seller has granted a refund, so I have no complaints anymore. this will be returned on Thursday when I go to the post office.
thread will be kept open just to garner suggestions for repair. I actually tried minor clip mods (holding it together with metal clips and clamps) but that only had the effect of causing the R CTRL to fail and oddly the up arrow to work. I think only a real bolt mod will work, because with a bolt you can control precisely the amount of pressure to place on the membrane.
Oh, and fohat- the reason why I have scissors clips (is that what you call them?) and clamps in the first place, is because you advised me to get them!
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You say you have never returned something to the seller, but you have also never paid so much. If you basically buy at low prices from garage sales where everything is being sold as is of course you have nothing to complain about
I have paid top dollar for several keyboards, with $175 for an F-122 from h2gofast probably being the highest.
Getting burned is not anything that I enjoy, but expecting decades-old electronics to be working properly is asking a lot.
If an item says "complete, tested, and working" I would expect that to be true, otherwise I would not.
Ebay has a policy that items should be sold in good working order unless noted "for parts or not working" but you might have trouble getting satisfaction from them.
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I actually tried minor clip mods (holding it together with metal clips and clamps) but that only had the effect of causing the R CTRL to fail and oddly the up arrow to work.
I think only a real bolt mod will work, because with a bolt you can control precisely the amount of pressure to place on the membrane.
As the plates are torqued to differing pressures in various areas, they will lift off each other and contact will be lost.
This is precisely when and why bolt mods do what they do. This keyboard sounds like an ideal candidate.
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I have paid top dollar for several keyboards, with $175 for an F-122 from h2gofast probably being the highest.
Getting burned is not anything that I enjoy, but expecting decades-old electronics to be working properly is asking a lot.
If an item says "complete, tested, and working" I would expect that to be true, otherwise I would not.
Ebay has a policy that items should be sold in good working order unless noted "for parts or not working" but you might have trouble getting satisfaction from them.
Yeah, it was supposed to work good, but came to me with arrow cluster out of order, so I guess being grouchy about that is ok.
Because I test the arrow cluster last (I always start at the top left with escape key), it hit a very, very sour note with me. Everything worked fine, until I got that nasty tok-tok-tok empty feeling like there was no spring underneath. Kind of hard to explain the sinking sensation in my heart.
What amazes me is that even a tiny SSK can have lost so many rivets, wtf. Even my M122 aircraft carriers have not lost half as many rivets and they are twice as big and about just as old.
BTW, just to respond to that amusing graphic from your teenage daughter about Twilight: aren't tweens all insane about Twilight? I thought they read it more than they read the bible in the USA. It's precisely the kind of HARAM thing, misleading the good Muslims, that religious fanatics in neighboring Malaysia get all worked up about. Only last month they banned Ultraman (Japanese attempt to one-up Superman) on charges that Muslims will be misled into thinking Ultraman is God.
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What amazes me is that even a tiny SSK can have lost so many rivets, wtf. Even my M122 aircraft carriers have not lost half as many rivets and they are twice as big and about just as old.
your teenage daughter about Twilight
There is no predicting. My oldest M, an early-1986 1390131, came to me with every one intact, not even loose. I was almost sorry to do the bolt mod, but I don't regret it (I did several internal mods because I wanted it to be "the One").
The M-122s that I have opened generally had far fewer broken rivets than standard Ms.
My daughter is very sensitive and intelligent, and has been fanatic about Harry Potter for many years (I read the series aloud to my kids before they were really old enough to read it themselves). When Twilight got popular she was about 12 and read the series but hated it, because (she said that) the main character was so lame and stupid. She also disapproved of the ugliness and violence of it.
I read at least half of what my kids read, just to keep up with "stuff" but the horror genre and vampires are just nothing that I have ever cared for at all, at any point in my lifetime (although one of my very favorite books, Perdido Street Station, could easily be considered a horror novel, at its core), so I was happy to ignore it.