geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: nubbinator on Sat, 12 April 2014, 01:48:37
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I was just informed the other day that I will no longer be able to use my own mouse and keyboard at work for "security reasons". Apparently they're paranoid that my keyboard or mouse may introduce some sort of spyware/malware/virus to the network and I can only use approved and provided devices. I brought it up that I use my setup for "ergonomic" reasons. Currently, my keyboard is my ergo-Clear modded RK-9000 with 62/65g springs and my mouse is my Anker vertical mouse. While the ergonomic part sounds like BS, it's true. While the keyboard isn't an ergonomic layout, I start getting finger and joint pain and fatigue from using a membrane or crappy rubber dome keyboard.
So while that sucks, I may be able to get the county to buy me a decent keyboard and mouse. Following that, what keyboard should I try and get them to get me? Something of the Clear variety would be awesome.
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The Code springs to mind.
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Nah time to quit.
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Or a Model M?
You could argue that it is so old any kind of snooping technology was simply not available when the keyboard was made.
Mind you they might not look kindly upon the PS/2 to USB adaptor.
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Or a Model M?
You could argue that it is so old any kind of snooping technology was simply not available when the keyboard was made.
Mind you they might not look kindly upon the PS/2 to USB adaptor.
Oh yes, this will be a nice touch :)
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I was just informed the other day that I will no longer be able to use my own mouse and keyboard at work for "security reasons". Apparently they're paranoid that my keyboard or mouse may introduce some sort of spyware/malware/virus to the network and I can only use approved and provided devices. I brought it up that I use my setup for "ergonomic" reasons. Currently, my keyboard is my ergo-Clear modded RK-9000 with 62/65g springs and my mouse is my Anker vertical mouse. While the ergonomic part sounds like BS, it's true. While the keyboard isn't an ergonomic layout, I start getting finger and joint pain and fatigue from using a membrane or crappy rubber dome keyboard.
So while that sucks, I may be able to get the county to buy me a decent keyboard and mouse. Following that, what keyboard should I try and get them to get me? Something of the Clear variety would be awesome.
since these guys have a cold war security mentality, ask them for a beam spring or hall effect
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I was just informed the other day that I will no longer be able to use my own mouse and keyboard at work for "security reasons". Apparently they're paranoid that my keyboard or mouse may introduce some sort of spyware/malware/virus to the network and I can only use approved and provided devices. I brought it up that I use my setup for "ergonomic" reasons. Currently, my keyboard is my ergo-Clear modded RK-9000 with 62/65g springs and my mouse is my Anker vertical mouse. While the ergonomic part sounds like BS, it's true. While the keyboard isn't an ergonomic layout, I start getting finger and joint pain and fatigue from using a membrane or crappy rubber dome keyboard.
So while that sucks, I may be able to get the county to buy me a decent keyboard and mouse. Following that, what keyboard should I try and get them to get me? Something of the Clear variety would be awesome.
since these guys have a cold war security mentality, ask them for a beam spring or hall effect
Magnetic reed switches could be nice too :)
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Nah time to quit.
^
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Ask them to get a Topre. They may think it's just a rubber dome keyboard and would not suspect and thing!
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Unicomp if they need to buy a new keyboard for you.
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The USB plug may be the hangup.
If you can live with straight PS/2 gear, the IT department should be willing to grant an exception.
Really kind of silly, you could carry a tiny USB stick in your sock and plug it in for 2 minutes when the boss was in the rest room, and do all the damage you needed to.
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I brought it up that I use my setup for "ergonomic" reasons. Currently, my keyboard is my ergo-Clear modded RK-9000 with 62/65g springs and my mouse is my Anker vertical mouse. While the ergonomic part sounds like BS, it's true. While the keyboard isn't an ergonomic layout, I start getting finger and joint pain and fatigue from using a membrane or crappy rubber dome keyboard.
So while that sucks, I may be able to get the county to buy me a decent keyboard and mouse.
First step check the list of approved devices.
Second. Walk over to HR and explain the situation to them. Explain too that you bring the keyboard because you don't want to dump the high price on the company. At most companies HR will freak when they hear that someone at the company is trying to deny you ergonomic equipment.
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The USB plug may be the hangup.
If you can live with straight PS/2 gear, the IT department should be willing to grant an exception.
Really kind of silly, you could carry a tiny USB stick in your sock and plug it in for 2 minutes when the boss was in the rest room, and do all the damage you needed to.
Hoo boy, you have no idea...
My company locked all security sensitive PCs with security programs - no usb stick going to work there ever, BIOS is locked and there no way to reset password... that's not all, but that's enough :)
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Make them find you a Northgate with blue Alps. While they work on that you'll have a few more years of your current keyboard.
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The Code springs to mind.
That's one I was thinking, but it's hard to find one in stock.
Nah time to quit.
If jobs grew on trees and the benefits weren't so good...
Ask them to get a Topre. They may think it's just a rubber dome keyboard and would not suspect and thing!
Not a huge fan of Topre.
The USB plug may be the hangup.
If you can live with straight PS/2 gear, the IT department should be willing to grant an exception.
Really kind of silly, you could carry a tiny USB stick in your sock and plug it in for 2 minutes when the boss was in the rest room, and do all the damage you needed to.
I was thinking the same with PS/2. I might just have to talk to the IT department and see if it would be acceptable if I had a nice PS/2 keyboard instead.
And, from what I understand, they're incredibly insane when it comes to what they can see with computers. I've heard stories of IT calling people at their desks because they plugged something in. The new department we're under basically said no USB devices at all, not even plugging your phone or PMP in to charge.
To me, if they're that concerned about security, why are we even using our own physical machines and no a remote desktop or other virtual machine?
First step check the list of approved devices.
Second. Walk over to HR and explain the situation to them. Explain too that you bring the keyboard because you don't want to dump the high price on the company. At most companies HR will freak when they hear that someone at the company is trying to deny you ergonomic equipment.
There's no list of approved devices yet that I've seen. And I've talked to the head of IT face to face and explained it to him and he said that they would look into getting me a keyboard and mouse, especially since I dropped the ergonomic buzzword. So I don't think HR will go for letting me keep the keyboard and mouse, but will have to go looking for something for me. I'm just sad because now I can't dial in the keyboard setup that's the most comfortable for me.
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Matias Secure Pro.
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Find whoever came up with this silly rule and install a phantom typing joke device inside that guy's approved equipment
.. or not. In the US that is something that could get you fired.
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Find whoever came up with this silly rule and install a phantom typing joke device inside that guy's approved equipment
.. or not. In the US that is something that could get you fired.
This guy deserves to be beaten to death by IBM Model F :)
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Ive posted this before but this is the reason why
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/27/mission_impossible_mouse_attack/
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I always say that aside from ergonomic issues, using a mechanical keyboard improves my work flow which is absolutely true. Both mechanically and morally, I'm faster and more motivated on my own board.
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Anyone have a 55g Topre board they want to loan me for a week? Maybe I will become a convert and I can get one of those. I've tried some of the lighter Topre switches and we did not get along.
I always say that aside from ergonomic issues, using a mechanical keyboard improves my work flow which is absolutely true. Both mechanically and morally, I'm faster and more motivated on my own board.
It's entirely true for me. The two kinds of keyboards I type the fastest on are my mechs (once I'm acclimated to that switch) and my scissor switches on my T500. The T500 also doesn't end up hurting because there's a high tactile point on the switches that helps keep me from pushing so hard on them. Every other membrane, rubber dome, and scissor switch board I've used has been slower to type on hurt my hands with extended use. Since part of my job is typing court reports and other documents to the court and individuals, I figure a good, comfortable typing experience is beneficial both ergonomically and in terms of typing speed.
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If your job requires substantial amounts of typing, then you should ask your office if they’d spring for, e.g., a Maltron or a μTRON, for ergonomic reasons. When they balk at the price you can offer to just keep using your existing keyboard.
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Get a doctor's note. I'm fortunate enough, all I have to do is show them my mangled elbow and I'm pretty set. But these days, most health care practitioners are willing to help folks out.
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Get a doctor's note. I'm fortunate enough, all I have to do is show them my mangled elbow and I'm pretty set. But these days, most health care practitioners are willing to help folks out.
^+1 to doctor's note. Tell them that you can also get them a lawyer's note, if the doctor's note is not good enough.
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Talking to the head of IT, it sounded like the ergonomic buzzword was enough and that they should be able to move on that, no doctor's note necessary. Fortunately, it's not something coming into immediate effect as we're phasing over to the health care agency from being independent.
I may try the PS/2 route and see if I can do that. It would make the keyboard part easier, but not the mouse.
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Offer to let them examine it and test them out....
Are they disabling USB on all machines or just the ones normally accessible for a USB drive? It isn't that easy to find bulk PS/2 Keyboards and Mice so I'm sure they're USB...just let them examine it and test it to make sure it doesn't have any security issues..
That combined with the ergonomic argument hopefully lets them ok it...
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You'll probably end up with one of these
(http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/_base_v1/products/natural-ergonomic-keyboard-4000/mk_nek4000v2_large.jpg)
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If IT gives you too much fuss, involving HR should be enough to keep your keyboard. Especially if you have a 'good' reason--the doctor's note is a great!
Also, like polymer said, give it to IT and have them analyze it for 'security flaws' and have them justify how it is a risk.
It might be easier to make a friend in IT that will let it slide. All office politics are different though hopefully you can pull the right strings.
Good luck! :)
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I wouldn't ask them to justify it...just work with them...I wouldn't even get HR involved at this point...
Just try to work with them to get an exception or to have them replace it with something they'll be happy with and you'll be happy with..
Do you know which device is giving them the most concern? Just by looks I'd say the mouse because the keyboard is just a keyboard..the mouse looks like some oddball thing and it sticks out a lot...
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Don't forget that all IT people love free food...
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Don't forget that all IT people love free food...
And beer. And barbecued meat :)
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Luckily I work as an IT administrator so I decide which keyboard I want :p
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There is no way a mechanical keyboard can introduce a virus or spyware into the system. Not unless you're having to upload drivers from a USB or external data source (such as a CD).
Besides, the computer system you're working on should have an antivirus firewall robust enough to cope with it.
I could understand it if you were putting in a USB device or charging up an iPhone from your computer's USB ports but even so.
No-one, to my knowledge, has ever had a computer virus problem from installing a USB wired keyboard of any kind.
If they did, then no-one would buy those keyboards.
I've used different keyboards on various incarnations of Windows for years (Since the 1990s - the golden years of IBM Model Ms) and I have never known a keyboard installation cause a computer malfunction due to a virus.
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There is no way a mechanical keyboard can introduce a virus or spyware into the system. Not unless you're having to upload drivers from a USB or external data source (such as a CD).
Besides, the computer system you're working on should have an antivirus firewall robust enough to cope with it.
I could understand it if you were putting in a USB device or charging up an iPhone from your computer's USB ports but even so.
No-one, to my knowledge, has ever had a computer virus problem from installing a USB wired keyboard of any kind.
If they did, then no-one would buy those keyboards.
I've used different keyboards on various incarnations of Windows for years (Since the 1990s - the golden years of IBM Model Ms) and I have never known a keyboard installation cause a computer malfunction due to a virus.
just because it hasn't made the news doesn't mean it hasn't happened :d.
The more important factor of the restriction I imagine would be simply the USB functionality. Just another 'open door' to close.
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Get a doctor's note. I'm fortunate enough, all I have to do is show them my mangled elbow and I'm pretty set. But these days, most health care practitioners are willing to help folks out.
^+1 to doctor's note. Tell them that you can also get them a lawyer's note, if the doctor's note is not good enough.
Lol good one eth0s :)
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Luckily I work as an IT administrator so I decide which keyboard I want :p
yup. my company has the same bull**** keyboard and mouse policy. but i work at a satellite office. i use an ergodox at work and even encourage "the users" to bring in whatever works for them. **** it. corporate wont do anything, they are dependent on me to keep their **** going. and i dont document ****. i am not documenting myself out of a job.
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Crap-eaters who enforce "corporate policy" like this should be typing on crappy rubberdome with half keys missing all their life :)
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g
Crap-eaters who enforce "corporate policy" like this should be typing on crappy rubberdome with half keys missing all their life :)
corporate picked the wrong person at my office to enforce such a policy. no way in hell i am ever going to tell someone what they can and cannot use as far as kb/mouse.
'snitches get stitches' is one of my three office principals. the other two being 'its easier to ask for forgiveness than permission' and 'the squeaky wheel gets the oil'.
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gCrap-eaters who enforce "corporate policy" like this should be typing on crappy rubberdome with half keys missing all their life :)
corporate picked the wrong person at my office to enforce such a policy. no way in hell i am ever going to tell someone what they can and cannot use as far as kb/mouse.
'snitches get stitches' is one of my three office principals. the other two being 'its easier to ask for forgiveness than permission' and 'the squeaky wheel gets the oil'.
Damn good three principles you have :)
And in my office nobody giveth a fukke :)
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So far no dice on keeping my own. And, apparently, the only certified vendor is Staples which means I have the choice of the Logitech Wireless Trackball M570 or Trackman Marble for more ergonomic mice (no vertical mice) and the MS Wired Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 for ergo keyboards.
****.
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well, at least the ergo 4k doesn't suck
but domes
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well, at least the ergo 4k doesn't suck
but domes
It still sucks, it just sucks less than some others. Goodbye comfortable Ergo Clears, we had a good run. Hello crappy domes and decreased productivity.
And I really wanted to use a TKL or 60% since they're even more comfortable.
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Take rubber dome board apart, remove all stuff, figure out a way to set Ergo Clears into the case (cut squares in plastic case or something?), wire them in matrix, connect to teensy, no one is the wiser.
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Take rubber dome board apart, remove all stuff, figure out a way to set Ergo Clears into the case (cut squares in plastic case or something?), wire them in matrix, connect to teensy, no one is the wiser.
I think Security won't approve tinkering with keyboard at work and won't allow taking it hope.
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put a Logitech sticker on your ergodox and pretend it is what they ordered. if someone questions act surprised and confused. "I dont know. this is what i got. i kind of like it. blah blah blah". be sure to add that "blah blah blah" as it really helps solidify your arguments.
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that's what happens when you work for NASA. lesson learned the hard way.
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Damn, I was hoping for a happy (or at least tolerable) ending to this one. I would definitely start looking for another job if that happened to me. Not trying to encourage that; just feeling your pain!
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Damn, I was hoping for a happy (or at least tolerable) ending to this one. I would definitely start looking for another job if that happened to me. Not trying to encourage that; just feeling your pain!
I'm going to try and find some amicable resolution. They have some mechs on Staples.com, but nothing that I could justify and nothing really that great. I may be able to replace my mouse though. I'll just have to take it home and swap out the crappy switches for some nice Omron switches.
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Plugging a USB keyboard into a computer is not the same as plugging a USB memory drive. Not the same thing at all.
Seriously, never known anyone develop a computer problem on their machine from connecting a keyboard or mouse. Its just never happened. Certainly not from a reputable company.
I'd go down the ergonomics route if they persist. Denying people the tools they need to do a job and its a recipe for an industrial tribunal.
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Tell them to get you a das or filco, and say you can't work efficiently without it.
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I'm pretty lucky that I work on our control bridge and I'm left alone most of the time. We all plug our phones into our thin clients, and my boss who owns the data centre has seen my blue and white keyboard and doesn't really care. I think the fact that we only have thin clients is why nobody has said anything to me.
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Seriously, never known anyone develop a computer problem on their machine from connecting a keyboard or mouse. Its just never happened. Certainly not from a reputable company.
I have a few years' experience with diagnosing computers, and I've seen a few that have done this. The company was "Apple" for both devices, not sure if I'd call them reputable though.
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@nubbinator: pull the ergo card and use it for all it's worth. Fortunately I'm on good terms with the information systems guys at my company, and they let me use whatever KB I want.
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Sorry Nub, but this is the world we live in now. Especially if your company is in the healthcare sector. There is a reason they implemented this policy and part of is to be in compliance probably.
Plugging a USB keyboard into a computer is not the same as plugging a USB memory drive. Not the same thing at all.
Seriously, never known anyone develop a computer problem on their machine from connecting a keyboard or mouse. Its just never happened. Certainly not from a reputable company.
I'd go down the ergonomics route if they persist. Denying people the tools they need to do a job and its a recipe for an industrial tribunal.
Never say never. Security breaches happen with HIDs (Human Interface Device) every day. Did you click on his link here?
Ive posted this before but this is the reason why
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/27/mission_impossible_mouse_attack/
That example is a moded mouse, but it's really a USB "flash" device that looks like a regular USB keyboard to the PC and therefore the PC treats it as such. No AV or firewall software scans keyboards for Malware. These devices can be programmed for all sorts of things like setting up a reverse ssh tunnel to a server that allows full remote access to your PC and entire network potentially.
Nub, it looks like your company is taking security seriously. Which is good. Like everyone else said, talk to your IT/HR people and see what they can do for you. Maybe if they purchase the board you choose and inspect it they will be okay with it?
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This is probably what they are really trying to prevent. Many of us here have used a Teensy to modernize a model F, so an adversary could extend that Teensy programming to do nefarious stuff.
http://www.offensive-security.com/offsec/advanced-teensy-penetration-testing-payloads/
Then again, if a company isn't already preventing physical access to the workstation USB ports, then this rule doesn't make sense. It would be WAY easier to just use a payload on a USB stick, rather than going to all the trouble of modding your own keyboard or mouse.
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That's exactly what they used in the link Lanx posted. There are many different iterations of course. They come as USB "flash" drives but sticking it into a mouse or keyboard is a good diversion if you are in a workplace that doesn't allow USB flash drives.
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Tell them to get you a das or filco, and say you can't work efficiently without it.
Thankfully I have a boss who makes sure I have whatever I need/want (within reason) to better do my job, however I would imagine many places would just show you the door for making too big of a fuss over a mouse and keyboard.
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yep..........did the same thing at my place to, but did not apply to me :cool:
if they will accept Staples as a vendor and you don't have to use ergo...........they do sell matias, cherry, cm, ibm rubber domes that might pass?, keytronic, razer, steelseries and of course logitech
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This is probably what they are really trying to prevent. Many of us here have used a Teensy to modernize a model F, so an adversary could extend that Teensy programming to do nefarious stuff.
http://www.offensive-security.com/offsec/advanced-teensy-penetration-testing-payloads/
Then again, if a company isn't already preventing physical access to the workstation USB ports, then this rule doesn't make sense. It would be WAY easier to just use a payload on a USB stick, rather than going to all the trouble of modding your own keyboard or mouse.
Heh. I heard of a company which routinely conducts full-body search on employees - all phones, usb-sticks, such must be left at the entrance, and so on...
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This is probably what they are really trying to prevent. Many of us here have used a Teensy to modernize a model F, so an adversary could extend that Teensy programming to do nefarious stuff.
http://www.offensive-security.com/offsec/advanced-teensy-penetration-testing-payloads/
Then again, if a company isn't already preventing physical access to the workstation USB ports, then this rule doesn't make sense. It would be WAY easier to just use a payload on a USB stick, rather than going to all the trouble of modding your own keyboard or mouse.
Is something like this even possible if you only use ps2?
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Is something like this even possible if you only use ps2?
That's what I'm wondering. I'll gladly go PS/2 if I can use a good keyboard and not the **** available to me.
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No. That particular type of device only works with USB.
It is possible.
Edit: Well, I was curious about this since I've never actually tried it and it does work with a PS2 adapter, but it requires a reboot of the machine in order to be recognized.
Looks like you are stuck with trying to sweet talk your IT/HR people. Good luck, Nub.
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newegg/cdw/etc are probably on their list of approved providers, so what probably needs to happen is that you need to get the keyboard you want, let's say another rk-9000, approved for use, then have IT source it.
the evoluent handshake mouse is almost certainly already approved because evoluent spent a lot of money convincing the public sector to certify their devices in hipaa situations and used the empirical research that handshake reduces occurrence of work-related RSI significantly to push everything through. so, for the mouse, i'd go with that. IT shouldn't have trouble getting you one, and it's a really comfortable mouse.
the RK-9000 is a newegg house brand keyboard and there is no way they're going to go through the effort to push like evoluent did. that said, it's almost identical to a lot of keyboards that might have been approved.
actually, before you move forward with trying to get an MX-switched keyboard, make sure that unicomp isn't an approved vendor first. afaik unicomp does a fairly large amount of public sector business who have to source their products as replacements for old IBM keyboards.
if they aren't, try looking for anything in the approved list of vendors and p/ns that look like they are deck or TG3 boards. TG3 sells a ton of boards into law enforcement; i think most of us have bought a rebadged police interceptor workstation keyboard from a surplus outlet at some point. the next vendor i'd look at is adesso. they have a long history of supporting macs institutionally with input devices and were die hard alps-style switch customers at one point. they currently have two MX boards in their lineup: http://www.adesso.com/products/product-sort2-16.html
the last vendor that i think might be able to pull this off that i can think of is matias. afaik, prior to the new switch and models, edgar matias sold a lot of keyboards in mac-locked markets as replacements for AEKs and i have no doubt that he can navigate this space if it makes sense to him. that said, i don't know if he's pursuing it with the new line, but they're great boards and he has a bunch of cool ergo models as well. also, his organization also doesn't have the kind of corporate lethargy that some of the bigger companies (logitech, namely) have, as he demonstrates every day on this very forum :).
anyway, the one thing i'd like to emphasize is to _not_ try to split hairs on this one. there's nothing really sensical about most rules in public IT. i'm going to take a wild guess that there's very little keeping someone from sneaking usb keys inside the cases of all their stock of approved keyboards and accomplishing max exfiltration despite the security rubrick, or just like, using their phonecam to take a picture of a sensitive screen.
i have friends who work on projects whose operational security departments have their stuff together, and you have to go way way beyond not letting people bring in usb devices to maintain op sec. at probably the most notable workplace i have friends at, the _last_ line of defense is a building-mounted anti-aircraft battery.
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if they aren't, try looking for anything in the approved list of vendors and p/ns that look like they are deck or TG3 boards. TG3 sells a ton of boards into law enforcement; i think most of us have bought a rebadged police interceptor workstation keyboard from a surplus outlet at some point. the next vendor i'd look at is adesso. they have a long history of supporting macs institutionally with input devices and were die hard alps-style switch customers at one point. they currently have two MX boards in their lineup: http://www.adesso.com/products/product-sort2-16.html
TG3 also make CNC controller KBs though they are really expensive on eBay. I suspect they might have OEM'd some medical KBs as well, but I have no hard proof.
They are also one of my fav oems.
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Nah time to quit.
still best advice
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Would you be able to persuade staples to source the keyboard you want? It would probably be easier to do from inside a shop... Say they add x dollars to the price from your vendor as their fee.
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Would you be able to persuade staples to source the keyboard you want? It would probably be easier to do from inside a shop... Say they add x dollars to the price from your vendor as their fee.
Oh, graft way :) It might just work.
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So I thought this was absolutely ridiculous on behalf of your job but then I saw this:
Teensy attack at ~40:17
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So I thought this was absolutely ridiculous on behalf of your job but then I saw this:
Teensy attack at ~40:17
****. that was nuts. i would never have thought someone could do that with a teensy.
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So I thought this was absolutely ridiculous on behalf of your job but then I saw this:
Teensy attack at ~40:17
****. that was nuts. i would never have thought someone could do that with a teensy.
Someone posted it somewhere in this thread but check out the 'peensy'