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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Kruppe on Fri, 10 April 2009, 14:19:38
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Hi there, I'm new to these forums.
I do a LOT of typing and go through a cheapo keyboard about once every two years. I'm getting a little tired of buying a new one every year and I'm looking for one thats going to last me.
Requirements:
- Durability, this thing has to last a long time
- Size, I never use the numpad and would actually prefer not to have one to save desk space (same goes for the arrow keys and friends since I'm an emacs user)
- Im not too picky about keyboard feel, although I've never tried anything besides cheapo keyboards. As for mechanical keyboards, I know some people like the feel better (are they more durable as a virtue of being mechanical?).
- Cost Isn't a huge factor, I haven't spent any excess money in a good long while, I'm due to burn a bit
- A bonus would be if the keyboard is based on the unix layout (not that important as that can always be changed)
Thanks in advance for all advice given
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Maybe you might want to try the Happy Hacking Keyboard Professional. It's quite expensive, but doesn't have anything beside the most basic keys.
-huha
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I would be a little apprehensive spending 300 dollars on a keyboard just to have the most basic keys. Having a smaller keyboard is merely a bonus, my main goal is to have a durable keyboard.
That said, I'm guessing the HHKP is durable simply because its so expensive.
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(are they more durable as a virtue of being mechanical?)
Welcome to the forums!
Yes, mechanical keyboard switches are often good for 50,000,000 operations, or more. You might have to try a few different mechanical switches before you'll truly know which one you like best. Search the forums for lots of info on different switches and who likes what.
One of the Filco boards sold at EliteKeyboards.com might be a good place to start, or you can get less expensive but still good keyboards on eBay.
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I would be a little apprehensive spending 300 dollars on a keyboard just to have the most basic keys. Having a smaller keyboard is merely a bonus, my main goal is to have a durable keyboard.
That said, I'm guessing the HHKP is durable simply because its so expensive.
I don't have the HHKB myself but I did just get the RealForce 87U in today and this is one solid board. I know some would disagree but I do think it is worth the 300+ I spent on it. If the cost is not an issue take a look at this thread http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=1918 it compares the two. From that review and others I've seen else where I think the RealForce is the better constructed of the two. And it does come with a switch to move the control key as well as proper keycaps for the change. I've had this board for only a couple of hours and I'm already thinking about laying down the money to get another one for work that should tell you something.
If on the other hand you don't want to spend quite that much on a keyboard take a look at the Filco boards. I don't have one myself yet but all the reviews indicate that it is also a really well built board as well.
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You might have a look at Unicomp. They have a keyboard with a Linux layout and some others you might be interested in. They are built to last and have buckling spring switches.
http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net//keyboards.html
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The first thing I did after reading these responses was look for poor reviews of each keyboard. It was actually difficult to find poor reviews. I'm going to look into the HHKP2 and into the RealForce to see if I can justify the price for myself. If that doesn't work out i will probably go with an 87 key Filco unless I find something more durable in the same price range or if there are other suggestions.
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I have 3 of the Unicomp boards and value them highly. They feel great when it comes to typing.
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Unicomp looks nice, with a *nix layout too, bonus. On the linux section they show the reprogrammed layout options but they don't show the windows key in the layouts. I'm guessing that they just don't change the windows key or something.
Can anyone say for sure that they leave it bound? It would suck to buy it and find out that for some reason its unbound and or not there.
Worst case I can rebind the capslock key to super.
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I have a couple of the Unicomp keyboards as well and a IBM Model M Space Saver. Both the Unicomp boards and the IBM Model M are very well built boards but I can't handle typing on them for long periods of time. When I use them for more than a couple of hours my fingers start to hurt. That is the main reason I started looking for other key switches to begin with. I really think every one should at least try the BS boards first for reference before looking at other switch types. Besides if you like the BS and your fingers can deal with the amount of force required to activate them there is really no need to look any further. Thus saving you a great deal of money :)
But just for your reference if you do decide to go the RealForce/HHKB route your beast bet of getting one right now is through this seller on ebay. http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/stlensbar_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_mdoZ That is where most of the people that have recently gotten the RealForce have bought theirs and all of them have been very happy with him. The only other choice for the RealForce at least for now is to go through a broker which is what I did and that is very expensive.
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I think the windows keys aren't even there on the Linux layout, kind of like the 101-key Customizer.
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i would recommend an ibm space saver :)
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For reference, it appears that the linux layout Unicomp keyboards do come with the windows key.
Do buckling spring keyboards require a significantly more force to press than your generic cheapo board (i guess probably a rubber dome one or whatever is the most common)?
I would love to try one for myself first, but I'm not sure I can find one to try.
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yeah BS takes more force than a rubber dome. I am one that prefers keybords that require more force. However, there are plenty (maybe more) that like keys that take a lighter stroke (like Filcos/G80-3000 with brown cherry switches, HHKB/Realforce with Topre switches, or Dell AT101/ABS M1 with black alps).
Another option may be a board with blue cherry switches. They are pretty light and still click. You can get a G80-3000 for $70 shipped or so - but it has a numpad on it.
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For reference, it appears that the linux layout Unicomp keyboards do come with the windows key.
Do buckling spring keyboards require a significantly more force to press than your generic cheapo board (i guess probably a rubber dome one or whatever is the most common)?
I would love to try one for myself first, but I'm not sure I can find one to try.
I think the Customizer 104 will have Windows keys, even with the Linux layout, but not certain.
The Customizer 101 won't have any Windows keys, but only comes in Pearl White. I'm actually starting to really like the white/beige boards again as the black boards are starting to be so common place now.
As for springs, I don't notice any problems with spring tension on the IBM or Unicomp boards when I use them.
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I don't notice enough tension with BS keyboards to bother me. I actually like that I can tell when I have pressed the key enough to register a keystroke. Definitely my favorite type of keyboard I have tried so far. I have a Unicomp Enderapro that I am very happy with.
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I think I'm going to pop over to my local university and see if I can't find a keyboard stashed somewhere with buckling springs (maybe I can score an IBM model M). Right now though I like the look of the 87 key Filcos.
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After a short drive to my local university, my friend in IT showed me his stockpile of old keyboards, among which was an old IBM clicky keyboard (which I'm typing this on). Im not sure if its a model M or not but it still works (the F keys, numpad and arrow keys are all missing though). The keys that are still there feel pretty good so I think I'm going to go with the Unicomp with linux layout 2.
Thanks for all your help everyone.
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If it's a Model M, it should say so on the label on the back of the keyboard.
Post the info on the label here and someone can tell you what you have.
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You could also remove a key. Buckling Spring keyboards feature a spring under the keycap, so if you see one, it most likely is a buckling spring keyboard.
-huha
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It definitely had springs, I could see them where the keys were missing. Unfortunately I can't just take a keyboard from the university IT stockpile unless they are going to throw it out, and from the excitement of my friend in IT upon its discovery I think he is going to fix it up and use it himself.
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It definitely had springs, I could see them where the keys were missing. Unfortunately I can't just take a keyboard from the university IT stockpile unless they are going to throw it out, and from the excitement of my friend in IT upon its discovery I think he is going to fix it up and use it himself.
Yeah, gotcha... I thought they had given you the board and it was yours to keep.
Either way, any buckling spring board is a great place to enter keyboard geekdom. :)
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Yeah, I'm excited to use it once I get it. My current keyboard is pretty much toast, I have to push very hard to get the keys to register. Looks like my ancient laptop is going to be my main computer for now. I've been wanting to see how much life a light linux distro could give it anyways.
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It's hard to go wrong with any of these recommendations. It's all about what you want/like/etc.
I'll say that the HHKB Pro is much more than meets the eye. It has, IMHO, the BEST key layout available. It may be minimalist, but you've got everything at your fingertips...including all the media function keys (mute, vol up/down, etc). I absolutely LOVE the layout.
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But well, it's extremely expensive. Unicomp's Model Ms are much cheaper and have quite a nice feel to them. If only they'd make the Model M mini, I'd order one straight away. How much does the Model M mini weigh, by the way? I couldn't find any specs on that.
As far as Unicomp goes, you simply cannot go wrong. They'll do all sorts of crazy stuff for you, if you ask them, so I think you could get the remapped keys on about any of their keyboards.
-huha
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When I set out to buy a keyboard I basically decided on a price cap of $150 or so. Seeing a keyboard that was 300 ish dollars caused a sort of "woah, maybe not" reaction. I don't really care so much how a keyboard feels as long as its not too resistant, and if I can get a durable keyboard for $70 or so then I'm happy.
As for the layout of the HHKB, yes it does look very efficient. Infact with the customizations I've made to my window manager I essentially have all the media keys in similar locations, but using the super or windows key instead of fn. And for the unix aspect of the layout I've used xmonad to remap capslock and tilde to ctrl and escape respectively.
Maybe when I have an excess of money I will try a HHKB but for now I'm going with Unicomp.
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Maybe when I have an excess of money I will try a HHKB but for now I'm going with Unicomp.
If you should decide that you don't like the Unicomp (which I very much doubt will happen), you should be able to sell it easily either here, or on eBay.
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If you should decide that you don't like the Unicomp (which I very much doubt will happen), you should be able to sell it easily either here, or on eBay.
Good to know!
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Good to know!
However, if you liked the IBM Model M, you'll also like Unicomp's stuff. I have an Endurapro and I love it despite truly ludicrous shipping fees. Getting 2 kg of awesome sent around the world by air mail costs a pretty penny, but it sure is worth it.
-huha
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Maybe when I have an excess of money I will try a HHKB but for now I'm going with Unicomp.
A wise decision :)
And you're supporting the last manufacturer of the Model M...
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Windows keys aren't a bad thing... they're treated as a Super key in *nix (and I believe the Menu key is a Hyper key,) and if you've got a problem with the keycaps having Windows logos, I believe they make Mac and blank caps for that. (And, of course, they make blank black caps.)
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Yep, I use the windows keys all the time. I have things like super-1 to super-6 bound to movement between different desktops and super-f to start firefox etc. Its great to have a modifier key which is used by almost nothing for this reason, not unlike the fn key on the HHKBs.
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I'm not sure why, maybe it was that the filco keyboards looked so much nicer and I was worried that my fingers may hurt with prolonged use of the buckling springs, but I ended up getting a filco with brown cherries instead.
I am already regretting the decision. There appears to be a manufacturing defect in my 'd' and ',' keys which has completely removed whatever de-bouncing they had. It causes them to register twice if the key is not pressed fully and quickly. Other than that, the keyboard is pretty nice, I realize now that I actually like having a keyboard that is a little harder to press.
I'm going to talk with support and see if I can get the keyboard repaired or replaced, and then I think I will sell it and probably go with my original plan of purchasing a Unicomp.
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I am already regretting the decision. There appears to be a manufacturing defect in my 'd' and ',' keys which has completely removed whatever de-bouncing they had. It causes them to register twice if the key is not pressed fully and quickly.
Hey, thanks for the alert. I need to test my own Filco with browns a little better. I purchased it recently but haven't really tested it all that well. If it has defects such as that, I want to get it all straightened out before any warranty runs out.
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From what I've read this defect seems to be sort of common. So definitely test your board.
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I'm curious, what was the specific way that you were hitting your realforce keys that was causing the key repeats, and how did you change the way you used it to prevent them?
I know for my filco it appears only to happen on the 'd' and ',' keys. This is the reason I suspect its some sort of defect. Two keys on one keyboard is also somewhat dissapointing.
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I know for my filco it appears only to happen on the 'd' and ',' keys. This is the reason I suspect its some sort of defect. Two keys on one keyboard is also somewhat dissapointing.
Hi Kruppe, I'm sorry you're having a problem. Of course your board is under warranty and will be replaced asap. I hope you do not decide to sell your board based on this bad luck alone.
From what I've read this defect seems to be sort of common. So definitely test your board.
I'm still not sure how common this problem is, if you've read about this issue elsewhere I would be interested to know. There has been only one person on this forum reporting such a problem, and his evidence and agenda were suspicious. Of course EliteKeyboards will work with the manufacturer to prevent this issue from occurring in the future, and I hope at the least our support is satisfactory.
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A representative of filco contacted me promptly and was extremely helpful. Excellent service overall from EliteKeyboards.com, I have absolutely 0 complaints for their service.
As for selling the board, I will see what a fully capable board is like before I make my decision. So far my typing speed has been the same with the new keyboard which is good. And this is factoring in having to press backspace every time I use a 'd' or ',' too lightly. If both these keys were functioning like the rest of the keys on the keyboard my typing speed would likely be higher.
The issue that I'm having seems to be slightly different from the one talked about in the report you mention. In the related youtube video it seemed he was hitting the keys quite hard. The problem I'm having occurs when I press the keys too softly.
Yes that one particular report and a few youtube videos gave me the impression that it was potentially more common than it actually is. As well the fact that it has happened to 2 of (sort of 3) of my keys also makes it seem likely to be a common issue. I don't have any further information on it.
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Hey Kruppe I have a 1 week old Das Ulti that I am willing to trade for the Filco if it is good order. It is quite different from the Filco because it uses Cherry Blues and is blank. Just do a little more research on it in this forum, quite easy to find the info.
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majestouch, will you examine the board yourself when you get it back? Or will you send it to Japan. For ex. you could check the soldering, then de-solder the switch and swap it with a working one.
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I will keep that in mind Hyperion. I would like to try a fully working keyboard before I make my decision, and of course research the Das.
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I'm happy to report that the replacement keyboard has arrived and all the keys appear to be working perfectly. Excellent service from start to finish with EliteKeyboards.com.
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Windows keys aren't a bad thing... they're treated as a Super key in *nix (and I believe the Menu key is a Hyper key,) and if you've got a problem with the keycaps having Windows logos, I believe they make Mac and blank caps for that. (And, of course, they make blank black caps.)
To me, the problem with Windows keys was never the keys themselves, just their location, which was prone to fouling when you wanted Control or Alt.
I don't understand why they couldn't slap them up in the corner (where they sometimes put those newfangled power-control keys, or LEDs) where they wouldn't get in the way of normal typing. I'd expect people go for them in a "deliberate" fashion, so it doesn't need to be touch-typable.
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majestouch, will you examine the board yourself when you get it back? Or will you send it to Japan. For ex. you could check the soldering, then de-solder the switch and swap it with a working one.
Problem boards will go back to Diatec Japan for investigation.
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I don't understand why they couldn't slap them up in the corner (where they sometimes put those newfangled power-control keys, or LEDs) where they wouldn't get in the way of normal typing. I'd expect people go for them in a "deliberate" fashion, so it doesn't need to be touch-typable.
Because then you'd have to use two hands to use the windows key.