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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: kijin on Wed, 15 April 2009, 00:21:29

Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: kijin on Wed, 15 April 2009, 00:21:29: I've had an RSI - Tendonitis/Carpal tunnel or something (the doctors change their mind frequently) for 8 years now, started with the mouse hand.

I've gone through a lot to learn how to get along with computers, from working with voice recognition software, becoming ambi-dextrous, to using a trackball with my foot(which led, of course, to foot rsi problems. I don't do this anymore.) Now we have an understanding that involves lots of exercise and moderation.

I've upgraded my old old gray ms naturals to one of the new black ones. I have no experience with any of the fancy keyboards and switches I've been reading on this forum, so I was hoping some people would share their experience with me.

Bottom out or not? Tactile or not? Scissor? clicky? What's the deal?

From reading the threads, it seems that everyone has a different idea. I was thinking of trying something tactile that doesn't bottom out and (hopefully) isn't too loud.

I'd rather find one that doesn't look like it came through a time warp.

Thanks,
Kij
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: bhtooefr on Wed, 15 April 2009, 00:39:15: Whatever works for you.

I'd probably start with Cherry browns, though.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 15 April 2009, 05:35:36: There are many variations of RSI, there can't be a general recommendation. What works for you might not work for someone else.

The tactile point helps you to avoid bottoming out. A click is faster for learning that IMO.

Personally, if I bottom out too much my finger tips start to hurt. I cannot imagine how this can lead to wrist RSI. Having straight wrists and not resting your wrists on something while typing is much more important. But I've never been troubled by RSI so my advice isn't worth much.

Scissor keys will make you bottom out all the time. Also they are flat and this forces you to stretch your fingers more for the top rows. This can lead to additional tendon friction.

Having straight wrists is possible with regular boards as well because of how the key rows are offset. An ergo board should have more influence on the shoulder area actually.

Ergonomic research is a soft science (I think webwit said that).
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 15 April 2009, 06:59:56: I had RSI-like symptoms for a long time, and I always thought it was the keyboard. I used to use the MS Natural keyboards and the Northgate Evolution. I fixed my problems two ways: finding the right mouse and getting a keyboard with lighter switches. The more impactful of the two was the mouse. I switched from a normal mouse to the MS Wireless Natural Laser Mouse 6000 (or whatever the Hell it is), and that solved pretty much all of the pain I had since it put my hand at a more vertical position. This allows me to use the natural axis my wrist flexes on to move the mouse. Using lighter switches (I recommend Cherry browns) helped to keep my hands from getting tired as well.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: iMav on Wed, 15 April 2009, 07:42:26: What tactile response does for me is to stop me from jamming my fingers, full force, down to the bottom of the keystroke. That trauma has caused me pain in the past.

Short throw keyboards (like scissor switches (apple keyboard) and 'boards like the ML4100) also help ME because there isn't enough "travel time" on acceleration to the bottom of the keystroke to cause pain. One reason why the MacBook keyboard isn't that awful for me (my favorite laptop keyboard, in fact).
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 15 April 2009, 07:50:11: Quote from: iMav;85673
What tactile response does for me is to stop me from jamming my fingers, full force, down to the bottom of the keystroke. That trauma has caused me pain in the past.

Short throw keyboards (like scissor switches (apple keyboard) and 'boards like the ML4100) also help ME because there isn't enough "travel time" on acceleration to the bottom of the keystroke to cause pain. One reason why the MacBook keyboard isn't that awful for me (my favorite laptop keyboard, in fact).

I agree 100%.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: FKSSR on Wed, 15 April 2009, 08:08:18: I would think a Realforce/HHKB may be good for this purpose, but since I don't have one, I can't really say. But it seems to me the soft landing and tactile response would be nice for RSI issues.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 15 April 2009, 09:39:21: I mimic a flat surface on my keyboards by leaning back in my chair so there is no bend in the wrist. It's when I sit up straight that I start to have problems. Leaning back in my chair also allows my arm angle to naturally reduce. It's comfortable, too. :)

I really do not like negative slopes, though. It seems very awkward, and IMO, awkward is not good for RSI.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: FKSSR on Wed, 15 April 2009, 10:04:18: That has to be bad for your back or eyes, though, I would think.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: FKSSR on Wed, 15 April 2009, 10:05:52: haha. My neck hurts just thinking about that.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 15 April 2009, 10:08:09: Quote from: FKSSR;85704
That has to be bad for your back or eyes, though, I would think.

Only the back of my chair leans, and I keep my monitors low and close, so I don't have any problems. See here (with some keyboards I don't use anymore): http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=68555&postcount=247
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: FKSSR on Wed, 15 April 2009, 10:43:18: Eye tracking would be supreme.

Troy Sanders (drummer for Mastodon) once said that it is best for a drummer to keep his back and neck as straight as possible and move as little as possible. I believe the same is true for sitting at a desk. I try not to twist my back or my neck, unless I have to. So, yeah, my eyes are all over the place, but my neck isn't.

I may be picturing the leaning back thing wrong, but it's the non-straight back that is making me think it may not be the best position. However, I may be picturing it wrong.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: lal on Wed, 15 April 2009, 10:46:24: But another theory says that you should sit "dynamic" meaning changing positions from time to time.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 16 April 2009, 07:30:42: Of course, I'm a TrackPoint fan, and you can't get the pointing device any closer to the keyboard than that (which is embedded in the keyboard, after all.)

I'd prefer TrackPoints long before going tenless. (But, a tenless TrackPoint board would be better centered.)

Really, I think my ideal board has either blue Cherries or very low force BS, and a genuine IBM/Lenovo TrackPoint IV. But, I don't have an RSI.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: FKSSR on Thu, 16 April 2009, 07:57:44: Quote from: iMav;85673
Short throw keyboards (like scissor switches (apple keyboard) and 'boards like the ML4100) also help ME because there isn't enough "travel time" on acceleration to the bottom of the keystroke to cause pain. One reason why the MacBook keyboard isn't that awful for me (my favorite laptop keyboard, in fact).

I feel this is very true. Today, I'm typing on my HP laptop keyboard, and I definitely notice I don't have the same bottoming out issues as I have on brown cherry or black alps switches. I am pretty positive that the decreased travel time on the scissor switches are what makes the difference. I still don't like scissor switches very much, but that doesn't mean my previous point isn't true. :)
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: FKSSR on Thu, 16 April 2009, 21:11:08: Are those your setups? That is intense.

You are correct, though. I was imagining slouching more than keeping your back straight while leaning back.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: lal on Fri, 17 April 2009, 05:52:22: Quote from: webwit;86077

Show Image
(http://www.ergomotions.com/images/ergo1_edit.jpg) (http://www.ergomotions.com/about.php)

Well, that would be the ultimate workplace for me. Note how it has some kind of 19" rack insert in the base, probably for the computing machine ;)
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 17 April 2009, 07:00:45: Staring straight up for long periods of time is not good, either. Michaelangelo developed eye problems while painting the Sistine Chapel as he was on his back all day painting the ceiling. I keep my back very straight when seated. The only thing I change when I lean back is the angle between my legs and my chest. Otherwise, my posture is correct. To me, leaning back takes the load off my back and puts it on the chair.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: FKSSR on Fri, 17 April 2009, 08:44:29: Good point, itlnstln, I was going to say that leaning back at a big angle would hurt my head after a while. Honestly, though, I don't know a lot about the research behind this stuff, so I'm only giving my personal thoughts. I'm learning a lot, though! :)
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 17 April 2009, 09:28:54: Quote from: webwit;86155
Urban legend. He was standing up as you'd watch the ceiling and try to touch it.

Show Image
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Michelangelo_painting_God.JPG/319px-Michelangelo_painting_God.JPG) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sistine_Chapel_ceiling#History)

Anyway, gravity is bad.

IMO, that would be even worse. That would be some stiff neck action.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: Hyperion on Sat, 18 April 2009, 00:53:35: Wait if you need excercise for your fingers then shouldn't you use Cherry Blacks? I hear they are similar in feel to resucitating 104 dead black rats. Otherwise, try one of the Microsoft Wireless desktop keyboards, preferably 3000. They have a shallow key press and allow your hands to rest as if they were asleep.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: qso on Tue, 28 July 2009, 04:37:34: 3R = Relax, Reduce, Rest.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: JBert on Tue, 28 July 2009, 12:44:56: I've been wondering how much a split keyboard could help to keep your hands in a more natural position.
However, I have been practicing to keep my wrists at an angle while typing on a regular keyboard, so maybe it is more a matter of habit.

Any thoughts on this?
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: Rajagra on Tue, 28 July 2009, 14:32:51: Quote from: JBert;105067
I've been wondering how much a split keyboard could help to keep your hands in a more natural position.
However, I have been practicing to keep my wrists at an angle while typing on a regular keyboard, so maybe it is more a matter of habit.

Any thoughts on this?

It might be good to ignore the conventional wisdom on which keys to type with which fingers, as this causes the left hand to work in a diagonal NW to SE pattern.

This completely goes against the position your left hand covers if your wrist is straight.

So maybe this pattern is better:
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: timw4mail on Tue, 28 July 2009, 19:41:49: I can't help but wonder how awkward those are to type with.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: o2dazone on Tue, 28 July 2009, 22:19:43: Quote from: webwit;105170
There is no point trying to fix your steam machine. It is still a steam machine.

touche
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 29 July 2009, 05:57:07: Quote from: timw4mail;105175
I can't help but wonder how awkward those are to type with.

The way it emulates many of the motions you use on a normal keyboard must make learning it easier. BUT... I don't think I could cope with the sideways keystrokes. I imagine it feels like doing the Vulcan 'live long and prosper" sign four different ways at once.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: DreymaR on Wed, 29 July 2009, 05:58:15: Rajagra: I do something very nice that I think I may have invented (but so have someone else I'm sure): Moving the ZXCVB keys one step to the left! I use 105-key boards which is recommended for this or you'll be a Shift key short which is annoying.

This 'Bottom Half-Row Shift' (BHRS) alone is enough to make all those non-ergonomic keyboards I meet in my work day a LOT more ergonomic! It allows me to keep my wrists straight and mostly do straight-line stretches with my weak fingers; what really kills me is doing oddly angled stretches with weak fingers I believe. Highly recommended!

The key in the old 'B' position becomes the 105th key - the VK_102, SC056 key if you wish. I'm using that for my 'Ø' which isn't frequently needed. Any rare but still required character could go there depending on your typographic leanings, like 'Ü' or 'Ç' or the degree sign or whatnot.

I'm using the Portable Keyboard Layout or 'PKL' app (found on Sourceforge, made by Farkas Máté) to implement this setup wherever I go. On my own computers I go a step further and hack it in the Windows registry scan code remapping. I also move the key caps if possible of course.

I have two more suggestions against RSI, although it's your choice:

1) The Colemak layout (http://www.colemak.com) which I heartily recommend. Users have reported less symptoms and a good feeling whether they're using curved or ordinary keyboards. No proper research yet - sorry! - because that'd cost big money.

2) The use of 'extend' mappings in PKL which allow you to use the home row more and the mouse less. For instance, to navigate around I'll hold down CapsLock and use the UNEI (QWERTY IJKL) keys as arrow keys; to go one word back I'd press T (QWERTY F) and N (QWERTY J) which are both under my index finger tips! I'm using shortcut keys a lot more since I started putting more focus on the keyboard in this way. One might think that the left pinky would hurt from pressing CapsLock a lot, but I haven't felt anything.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 29 July 2009, 06:05:54: Good ideas. I didn't realise PKL was that versatile, I must look at it properly.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: JBert on Wed, 29 July 2009, 16:21:25: Quote from: DreymaR;105208
2) The use of 'extend' mappings in PKL which allow you to use the home row more and the mouse less. For instance, to navigate around I'll hold down CapsLock and use the UNEI (QWERTY IJKL) keys as arrow keys; to go one word back I'd press T (QWERTY F) and N (QWERTY J) which are both under my index finger tips! I'm using shortcut keys a lot more since I started putting more focus on the keyboard in this way. One might think that the left pinky would hurt from pressing CapsLock a lot, but I haven't felt anything.
I did know about PKL except for this little gem.

I have read your posts on the AutoHotkey forum and I am certainly intrigued. In fact, I like the idea for the overlay so much I might even implement it in hardware once I get down to making my own keyboard controller.
In the meantime, PKL will have to do though.

Can you still use the modifier key as usual - i.e. press it together with another key to get the special function, but tap it once to use its own function?

I was experimenting with you layout by swapping CapsLock for the space bar (its after all the only button for which you have two fingers to easily press it). The only downside was that I could't use the regular space bar anymore.

Also, maybe you're overdoing it a little with binding extra modifier keys in the overlay. I hit them accidentally a few times and they got stuck.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: DreymaR on Thu, 30 July 2009, 02:33:03: I once saw a keyboard that had an 'Fn' key implementing this solution (or rather, a not-quite-as-cool-but-still-cool variant of it) in hardware. Can't remember what it was called though.

I'm not for using the modifier as usual, because then you'll inevitably mispress and get unwanted results such as the dreaded CAPSLOCK OF RAGE. Not good. Some have used the key's natural function on KeyUp instead of KeyDown (when it's a modifier), but I really can't recommend it from experience. So I suggest taking some easily reachable but rarely used key (i.e., CapsLock!!!), disable it in the [layout] section of the layout.ini file and setting it to be your extend key exclusively. To turn on and off the Caps state (and the corresponding LED) I use Caps+Esc. Other suggestions for modifier keys include the right-hand or left-hand Win key since you have what amounts to a duplicate of it (but then again I'm now using an old IBM M so that's a no-go for me). If so, I'd use the left one since that's really easy to reach and you don't really need the Win-key shortcuts so often that you can't take the effort of finding the right-hand Win key for those.

I've used a setup without extra modifiers back when the extra ones (AST for Alt-Shift-Ctrl) weren't working as they should. It's a bit gymnastic but I managed to hit both Caps and one or two modifiers at the same time by hitting between keys and laying down the whole pinky instead of just the fingertip. But it's a lot less smooth, and I haven't had your problems. I do know that shift state problems are not at all uncommon with AHK apps and PKL in particular. But I hope we can work it all out.

Are you running any other AHK progs or other keyboard-hooking software?
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: Rajagra on Thu, 30 July 2009, 05:36:24: Quote from: DreymaR;105507
I do know that shift state problems are not at all uncommon with AHK apps and PKL in particular. But I hope we can work it all out.

I fixed the modifier state problems in my script (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6491) by having a procedure that checks the state of the modifier keys and returning a string containing whatever !^+ characters need to prefix the main key being sent. It's crude but effective.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: JBert on Thu, 30 July 2009, 16:11:37: Hmmm... I'll have to hack PKL then.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: DreymaR on Fri, 31 July 2009, 05:37:18: Hang on JBert - are you using PKL v0.3? Because it does send Ctrl Up, Shift Up and Alt Up whenever you release the Extend key; thus, nothing should get stuck. Yes, I guess it could still happen...

Rajagra: Send {Blind} really ought to take care of your problem without an extra routine?
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: JBert on Fri, 31 July 2009, 12:05:03: Strange, as it did happen. I had to restart my PC because the Shift key remained locked.

Still, I don't think you can configure the extend key to send a keypress if you didn't hit anything else within .5s, or did Farkas fix this?
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: Rajagra on Fri, 31 July 2009, 14:44:27: Quote from: DreymaR;105724
Rajagra: Send {Blind} really ought to take care of your problem without an extra routine?

It does preserve the state of the modifier keys, but as I suspected, my routine is still needed to strip out unwanted modifiers. E.g. if leftCtrl is used as the Fn key and I press leftCtrl-A wanting a left arrow to be sent, Send {Blind}{Left} will actually send Ctrl-Left, moving a word left instead of one character.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: qso on Mon, 17 August 2009, 06:34:43: I don't think the problem comes mainly from keyboard. It's from your mouse position. I've changed my mouse to left side, so far for weeks I don't have anymore pain on my wrist/shoulder. I need to change my sitting position :D my lower back hurts now everytime I reach down.
Title: Keyboard recommendation for RSI
Post by: Bollwerk on Mon, 17 August 2009, 06:41:01: If I have a long gaming-session using the WASD-Cluster and the number-row, my hand would start hurting after a some hours.

Same if I use the Arrow-Keys to move the Screen in RTS-based games.