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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Puddsy on Mon, 28 April 2014, 16:18:39

Title: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Puddsy on Mon, 28 April 2014, 16:18:39
I think I've seen this thread before but I can't find it again.

I'm thinking of buying some springs (and stickers, maybe lube) for a DS3 with blacks that I have coming in, but I'm not sure what weight I want. I was thinking 62g, but 55g also seems appealing.

Give me your wisdom, friends!
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Mon, 28 April 2014, 16:37:39
65g Blacks are my favorite linear MX switch
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: exitfire401 on Mon, 28 April 2014, 16:39:19
55g is my favorite Topre and it's a tie between 62g blacks, and 85g Clears for MX
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: epzy on Mon, 28 April 2014, 16:41:27
45g (Cherry springs), but I have 50g, 55g, 60g, 62g, 65g and 68g Korean gold springs laying around that I'm going to test out soon™ and I will probably end up liking one of them more.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: johndavis33 on Mon, 28 April 2014, 16:47:45
I think it's just personal opinion. I'd pick something a bit heavier than stock blacks, but I'm probably in the minority on that one. Is there any way to buy a bunch of springs of varying weights to try them out?
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: daerid on Mon, 28 April 2014, 16:49:03
55g Topre :-o
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: epzy on Mon, 28 April 2014, 16:50:24
I think it's just personal opinion. I'd pick something a bit heavier than stock blacks, but I'm probably in the minority on that one. Is there any way to buy a bunch of springs of varying weights to try them out?

Of course it's about personal preferences. You JUST missed Sprit's group buy of Korean gold springs... He offered some real heavy springs like 100g and 120g IIRC. Maybe try to PM him and see if he has some extras? He is called just 'Sprit' here on GH.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 28 April 2014, 16:58:23
So far 45g Browns, but I really want to give 55g or 65 Clears (like the Code) a try. I'm able to prevent bottoming out as I touch type on my 45g Browns, but something stiffer might make it easier for me to not bottom out. I also like my new 45g Topres, but they feel a bit heavier compared to my 45g Browns.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Defect on Mon, 28 April 2014, 17:01:25
62g Lubed Clears was what I chased for a while.  But after using BS and Topre 55g it's hard to jump back to it without warming up and getting used to light springs again.  After a day or two I'm fine, but then I go to stock clears and my fingers get strong again.

Panda clears are flippin awesome, too. 

And of course...Regret not pulling the trigger on 3 bags of 65gs...somehow told myself I wouldn't need them...
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: johndavis33 on Mon, 28 April 2014, 17:28:42
I think it's just personal opinion. I'd pick something a bit heavier than stock blacks, but I'm probably in the minority on that one. Is there any way to buy a bunch of springs of varying weights to try them out?

Of course it's about personal preferences. You JUST missed Sprit's group buy of Korean gold springs... He offered some real heavy springs like 100g and 120g IIRC. Maybe try to PM him and see if he has some extras? He is called just 'Sprit' here on GH.

Mmm, no thanks. I think the weight of my greens and whites are the perfect weight, and I'm not too into non clicky cherry switches.

The one thing that bothers me is how light topre switches are advertised to be. I've never wanted to take the plunge on topre because I'm pretty sure 55g would be too light for me to enjoy. I'd love an HHKB as stiff as greens or buckling springs. But oh well, I'll keep dreaming.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Sifo on Mon, 28 April 2014, 17:42:37
63.44g
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Oobly on Tue, 29 April 2014, 04:09:06
62g for Clears and Blacks :)
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Shirty on Tue, 29 April 2014, 05:35:31
63.44g

This.

In reality the only way you can be sure what's right for you is to try out a whole bunch of options. That takes time, but it's scientific. For a long time I thought reds were the nuts, but clears, greens and whites really took over for me so I guess I'm heavy-fingered.

One of the reasons I found Topre so disappointing was the lack of resistance. They are a beautiful action without a doubt, but they just don't differentiate themselves from really nice rubbers imho.

I'll revise my answer to 78.2395g.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: iLLucionist on Tue, 29 April 2014, 06:45:36
63.44g

This.

In reality the only way you can be sure what's right for you is to try out a whole bunch of options. That takes time, but it's scientific. For a long time I thought reds were the nuts, but clears, greens and whites really took over for me so I guess I'm heavy-fingered.

One of the reasons I found Topre so disappointing was the lack of resistance. They are a beautiful action without a doubt, but they just don't differentiate themselves from really nice rubbers imho.

I'll revise my answer to 78.2395g.

What do you mean specifically with that they "don't differentiate themselves from really nice rubbers"? Do you mean that they do not feel mechanical enough for a hybrid switch? Or do you miss something in the switch like the pronounced tactile feel in clears for example?
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Shirty on Tue, 29 April 2014, 06:55:47
I find the tactility too "damped" for my typing style, it's hard to explain. Don't get me wrong, I think they are a lovely mechanism and if they were a bit more cost effective I'd have one or two around the place. I think they would suit my gaming style more than my typing.

Many swear by them, just not me. I like a solid clunk or a hard click when I'm typing and Topre doesn't deliver. I typed on a really nice old RD for a few days the other day, and it really reminded me of my time with a Realforce.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: iLLucionist on Tue, 29 April 2014, 07:06:32
I find the tactility too "damped" for my typing style, it's hard to explain. Don't get me wrong, I think they are a lovely mechanism and if they were a bit more cost effective I'd have one or two around the place. I think they would suit my gaming style more than my typing.

Many swear by them, just not me. I like a solid clunk or a hard click when I'm typing and Topre doesn't deliver. I typed on a really nice old RD for a few days the other day, and it really reminded me of my time with a Realforce.

I know what you mean. I moved from my Browns to my brand new HHKB Pro 2 and I have the same feeling. Although it is a hybrid switch, it is difficult for me to feel the tactility. Every time I try not to bottom out I quickly realise some keys do not register, forcing me to push harder and basically resulting in bottoming out again. On the other hand, bottoming out does feel quite soft and mushy compared to my plate mounted Filco MJT 2 TKL with Browns. I am wondering whether it is just the fact that I have to adjust to the switch of this is more like what you say: the expected tactility is not there 'enough' for me.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Shirty on Tue, 29 April 2014, 07:11:21
It made me a bit sad at the time because I was really excited to try Topre, but I suppose my sausage-fingers are more suited to something a bit more industrial  :))
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: nubbinator on Tue, 29 April 2014, 09:16:07
67g.  I know of no other spring weights.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 29 April 2014, 09:34:19
Blues or heavier.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: strict on Tue, 29 April 2014, 09:56:19
I'm in love with stock clear springs. They arent nearly as heavy as people make them out to be IMO. I've honestly debated putting stock clear springs into my red switches.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Photoelectric on Tue, 29 April 2014, 10:06:29
Stock-only for Clears and Blues, 62g (normal non-gold, 62d gold is meh, 60g gold is closer to 62g regular) for linear, 45g spring in Jailhouse Blues.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: zeroni13 on Tue, 29 April 2014, 10:09:51
I currently use 85g MX blacks on my keyboard. Love it!
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Defect on Tue, 29 April 2014, 10:11:52
I'm in love with stock clear springs. They arent nearly as heavy as people make them out to be IMO. I've honestly debated putting stock clear springs into my red switches.

To actuate a clear takes less force than to actuate a black.  But to bottom out a clear is a very very heavy task.  Love that spring dynamic.

Ghost blacks/ghost reds are a delight on a heavy plated board.  Just makes you feel like you're typing on something indestructible.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: davkol on Tue, 29 April 2014, 11:15:43
Probably right between red and black for linear switches, thus I'd probably like springs from the yellow Kailh switches. Smooth vintage blacks with thick keycaps are close enough. However, considering MX' relatively short travel (I'd appreciate 6 mm instead of just 4 mm to bottom out), stock clears with their steep force curve definitely help... only if they were a tad bit lighter.

Cream Alps (@AEKII) are sort of okay out of the box.

In the end, it doesn't matter. I can get used to anything ranging from springless Cherry MY to buckling spring. It only takes a while at first.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: aref on Tue, 29 April 2014, 12:08:39
Topre's 55-gram key switch in an 87UB with an affinity for Cherry MX Red switches.
These two switches are disparate in feel, yet both switches really nice. When my
digits are a bit sluggish, the MX Red key switches feel comfortable and are enjoyable.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: dante on Tue, 29 April 2014, 12:10:31
Topre 45g in a TypeHeaven or 660C; I tried 45g in a Realforce and didn't like it as much.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Candyflip on Tue, 29 April 2014, 12:11:46
65g all the way
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: metalliqaz on Tue, 29 April 2014, 12:22:39
55g
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: handystack on Tue, 29 April 2014, 13:11:22
I am really liking 62g springs in lubed clears with full-travel SP DSA keycaps at work.  I have the same springs and switches on my home board with SP DCS keycaps sporting 0.4mm o rings, and I find that I wish I had just a couple grams more resistance for the shorter travel on those keycaps.  I'll be damned if i am going to go to the trouble of swapping out those springs again though :p
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: robertsig on Tue, 29 April 2014, 13:39:58
1) Topre 49g if it existed.

2)Cherry Clears with 65g Originative springs.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: feizor on Thu, 01 May 2014, 03:29:45
Please excuse my ignorance but I have read conflicting information about this:

With regards to 62g springs, is 62g the actuation force required or the bottom out force?

Further, are red and black switches identical but for the spring weight?

Ie if I were to put 62g springs into reds, would they feel the same as 62g blacks?

Is 62g closer to the stock reds or stock blacks?

Hopefully someone can clear this up for me.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: epzy on Thu, 01 May 2014, 03:39:16
Please excuse my ignorance but I have read conflicting information about this:

With regards to 62g springs, is 62g the actuation force required or the bottom out force?

Further, are red and black switches identical but for the spring weight?

Ie if I were to put 62g springs into reds, would they feel the same as 62g blacks?

Is 62g closer to the stock reds or stock blacks?

Hopefully someone can clear this up for me.

1. Bottom out force. Korean springs are measured in bottom out force whilst Cherry (stock) springs are measured in actuation force.
2. Yes, both are just linear switches with the same actuation point.
3. Yeah, pretty much.
4. Much closer to stock reds, almost the same.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: feizor on Thu, 01 May 2014, 04:07:52
Please excuse my ignorance but I have read conflicting information about this:

With regards to 62g springs, is 62g the actuation force required or the bottom out force?

Further, are red and black switches identical but for the spring weight?

Ie if I were to put 62g springs into reds, would they feel the same as 62g blacks?

Is 62g closer to the stock reds or stock blacks?

Hopefully someone can clear this up for me.

1. Bottom out force. Korean springs are measured in bottom out force whilst Cherry (stock) springs are measured in actuation force.
2. Yes, both are just linear switches with the same actuation point.
3. Yeah, pretty much.
4. Much closer to stock reds, almost the same.

No point modding reds with 62g springs then?
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: epzy on Thu, 01 May 2014, 04:14:14
Please excuse my ignorance but I have read conflicting information about this:

With regards to 62g springs, is 62g the actuation force required or the bottom out force?

Further, are red and black switches identical but for the spring weight?

Ie if I were to put 62g springs into reds, would they feel the same as 62g blacks?

Is 62g closer to the stock reds or stock blacks?

Hopefully someone can clear this up for me.

1. Bottom out force. Korean springs are measured in bottom out force whilst Cherry (stock) springs are measured in actuation force.
2. Yes, both are just linear switches with the same actuation point.
3. Yeah, pretty much.
4. Much closer to stock reds, almost the same.

No point modding reds with 62g springs then?

They'll still feel a bit different, so I wouldn't disregard it...
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: feizor on Thu, 01 May 2014, 04:48:01
Ok, thanks for clearing it up!
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Defect on Thu, 01 May 2014, 05:46:11
62g have a nice "cushiony" effect, similar to clears.  They are also a bit heavier than stock red/brown/blue.  Clears stick a lot with 45cherry springs, and stick MUCH less with 62g.  Obviously, lube helps in both scenarios.  Somehow I think unlubed 62g fits me better than lubed 62g.  Gotta always lube springs though.

Hashtag spring ping
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: davkol on Thu, 01 May 2014, 05:56:13
62g have a nice "cushiony" effect, similar to clears.

Uh, really? rknize's measurements (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46449) certainly don't like that. I mean, the curve is steeper than with stock springs, but not that steep.

(http://www.knizefamily.net/images/pool/spring-rate-chart.jpg)
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: iLLucionist on Thu, 01 May 2014, 06:28:41
62g have a nice "cushiony" effect, similar to clears.

Uh, really? rknize's measurements (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46449) certainly don't like that. I mean, the curve is steeper than with stock springs, but not that steep.

Show Image
(http://www.knizefamily.net/images/pool/spring-rate-chart.jpg)


Cool graph, I always wanted to see something like this.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Defect on Thu, 01 May 2014, 06:44:38
62g have a nice "cushiony" effect, similar to clears.

Uh, really? rknize's measurements (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46449) certainly don't like that. I mean, the curve is steeper than with stock springs, but not that steep.

Show Image
(http://www.knizefamily.net/images/pool/spring-rate-chart.jpg)


Cool graph, I always wanted to see something like this.

My bad, I meant to say something like "similar to clears but at a significantly reduced effect."
I'll stop posting early in the mornings x.x

Edit: Very cool graph though.  May I save for later?
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: davkol on Thu, 01 May 2014, 06:49:01
It's rknize's, as the URL and OP in the linked thread suggest. All hail rknize!
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Premonition on Thu, 01 May 2014, 10:51:02
My favorite springs are the ones in light MX switches, and having tried Topre, I enjoy the 45g Topre better. I do a lot of typing, so it's not feasible to use one of the heavy springs (how do you type on those things?).
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: davkol on Thu, 01 May 2014, 11:44:40
Weakened muscles are a first world's disease.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Defect on Thu, 01 May 2014, 11:58:09
My favorite springs are the ones in light MX switches, and having tried Topre, I enjoy the 45g Topre better. I do a lot of typing, so it's not feasible to use one of the heavy springs (how do you type on those things?).

Ever come home from a late night at the office and want to just lazily slam press keys?  That's when I made friends with Ghost blacks.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Moosecraft on Thu, 01 May 2014, 12:15:41
55g korean
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: iLLucionist on Thu, 01 May 2014, 12:49:59
Weakened muscles are a first world's disease.

Back to the typewriter then? Might help as a 'cure'? Or better even, a Linotype :p
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: davkol on Thu, 01 May 2014, 13:06:17
Like I mentioned elsewhere, RSI became much more common, when typewriters were replaced by PCs in American offices, and some people blamed too soft keys on the computer keyboards among other things.

To quote exact numbers, there were 20200 occurances of RSI (14% of all issues) in 1978 and 185400 occurances of RSI (56% of all issues) in 1990.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: iLLucionist on Thu, 01 May 2014, 13:11:30
Like I mentioned elsewhere, RSI became much more common, when typewriters were replaced by PCs in American offices, and some people blamed too soft keys on the computer keyboards among other things.

To quote exact numbers, there were 20200 occurances of RSI (14% of all issues) in 1978 and 185400 occurances of RSI (56% of all issues) in 1990.

That is very interesting. So the underlying cause might be too soft keys? Why would that be? Hmm... it might be perhaps posture Because you cannot really rest your palms on your desk when you have a typewriter, so it is difficult to strain those nerves there.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Premonition on Fri, 02 May 2014, 09:40:04
Like I mentioned elsewhere, RSI became much more common, when typewriters were replaced by PCs in American offices, and some people blamed too soft keys on the computer keyboards among other things.

To quote exact numbers, there were 20200 occurances of RSI (14% of all issues) in 1978 and 185400 occurances of RSI (56% of all issues) in 1990.

We can't put that as a direct correlation, as computer use was definitely much higher than typewriter use, especially twelve years in the future when it became ubiquitous. It could also be attributed to perhaps the longer amount of time spent on a computer for more than just typing out words, and the institution of it in the workplace widely.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: davkol on Fri, 02 May 2014, 10:04:09
True, only in case of those stats by themselves though. It's not like there wasn't any research or more detailed data... that's where I got the thing about stiffness anyway... in a 1994 issue of a CS journal.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: feizor on Fri, 02 May 2014, 10:26:29


62g have a nice "cushiony" effect, similar to clears.

Uh, really? rknize's measurements (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46449) certainly don't like that. I mean, the curve is steeper than with stock springs, but not that steep.

Show Image
(http://www.knizefamily.net/images/pool/spring-rate-chart.jpg)


Looks like there's a big gap between 62g and cherry heavy springs. Are there any springs that fill the gap?
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: davkol on Fri, 02 May 2014, 10:40:49
Korean 65g and 67g. I think there are 80g Korean springs too. Yellow Kailh switches had springs with actuation @50g in linear switches IIRC.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: badman5 on Fri, 02 May 2014, 14:29:19
i dont know. If anyone know where i can get a tester cheap that would be great.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: BliTzKiN on Sat, 03 May 2014, 05:43:25
62g Blues, 65g Blacks and 62g Clears for me
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: HendyZone on Sat, 03 May 2014, 06:43:29
67G Black :cool:
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: feizor on Sat, 03 May 2014, 06:55:10
67G Black :cool:

I have not tried it but from what I can gather, it would be my ideal as well. Where can I get 67g springs?
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Premonition on Tue, 06 May 2014, 11:27:01
My favorite springs are the ones in light MX switches, and having tried Topre, I enjoy the 45g Topre better. I do a lot of typing, so it's not feasible to use one of the heavy springs (how do you type on those things?).

Ever come home from a late night at the office and want to just lazily slam press keys?  That's when I made friends with Ghost blacks.

Ghost blacks? Blacks with Clear springs?  :confused:
I'm not really a fan of using much force in my keys, my fingers are usually pretty tired from sports or gaming so it's pretty painful to have to use force there also.
Title: Re: What is your favorite switch weight?
Post by: Defect on Tue, 06 May 2014, 12:19:19
My favorite springs are the ones in light MX switches, and having tried Topre, I enjoy the 45g Topre better. I do a lot of typing, so it's not feasible to use one of the heavy springs (how do you type on those things?).

Ever come home from a late night at the office and want to just lazily slam press keys?  That's when I made friends with Ghost blacks.

Ghost blacks? Blacks with Clear springs?  :confused:
I'm not really a fan of using much force in my keys, my fingers are usually pretty tired from sports or gaming so it's pretty painful to have to use force there also.

I use my ghost blacks when I'm tired and want to just drop my hand on my keyboard instead of actually typing.  Don't forget that to actuate a clear spring and to fully depress it are two VERY different weights.  Ghost blacks are easy to press unless you don't know how to type without bottoming out.