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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: krfkeith on Sat, 03 May 2014, 00:59:07
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It's been a longstanding dream of mine to build a hall effect keyboard. However, I am somewhat a loss as to where to go about looking for these. They don't have to be new, I'd be willing to use NOS or even used parts, but I don't really know where to look. I know Honeywell made them, but other than that I'm clueless. More importantly, were they sold as discrete switches like the cherries? Or were they a monolithic design like buckling springs, because obviously if the latter then this entire endeavor is kind of pointless. Anyone here worked with these guys? What do they feel like?
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Have you looked here?
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Honeywell_Hall_Effect (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Honeywell_Hall_Effect)
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PM Dorkvader. If any one person here knows it's him.
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it's me!
So: as best as we can determine, they were discontinued in the mid 1990s, with the most "recent" examples from 1996 or so. There was a batch that showed up on MECI a year or so back, but they were all bought before I could get any.
So the only source is from old Keyboards. I want to make some usable hall effect stuff, so I've been collecting them.
Right now you can't really make a hall effect keyboard, but I'm coming up with a PCB strip that will help (A PCB is necessary, as the hall sensors are not attached to the switch at all.) but it probably won't be done for a few months.
There are a few on eBay right now. Some even have the backlit keyswitches (that I still don't have and will someday get)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300621173764
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191127263407
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291068325684
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291067652254
http://www.ebay.com/itm/301079251457
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330732972326
The going rate for actual keyboards seems to be about $40-$60 depending
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Now, honeywell (microswitch) aren't the only manufacturer of hall effect, cherry supposedly has made some as well. Vintage HP as well as cortron inc and RAFI have a different type of hall effect that can sometimes be found.
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it's me!
So: as best as we can determine, they were discontinued in the mid 1990s, with the most "recent" examples from 1996 or so. There was a batch that showed up on MECI a year or so back, but they were all bought before I could get any.
So the only source is from old Keyboards. I want to make some usable hall effect stuff, so I've been collecting them.
Right now you can't really make a hall effect keyboard, but I'm coming up with a PCB strip that will help (A PCB is necessary, as the hall sensors are not attached to the switch at all.) but it probably won't be done for a few months.
There are a few on eBay right now. Some even have the backlit keyswitches (that I still don't have and will someday get)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300621173764
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191127263407
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291068325684
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291067652254
http://www.ebay.com/itm/301079251457
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330732972326
The going rate for actual keyboards seems to be about $40-$60 depending
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Now, honeywell (microswitch) aren't the only manufacturer of hall effect, cherry supposedly has made some as well. Vintage HP as well as cortron inc and RAFI have a different type of hall effect that can sometimes be found.
That is some hardcore stuff. Perhaps time to buy a 3D printer and "print" the switches? :D Would be cool if it were possible..
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That is some hardcore stuff. Perhaps time to buy a 3D printer and "print" the switches? :D Would be cool if it were possible..
That is totally possible. Problem is that 3D printing is quite expensive if you're not just doing a few prototypes.
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The going rate for actual keyboards seems to be about $40-$60 depending
Huh? The prices on the items you linked are from $200 to $1000. A little spendy.
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I don't know the MOQ and prices are, but RAFI¹ still make Hall effect switches:
http://www.rafi.de/RS-76-full-travel-keyswitches.165.0.html?&L=1
How you'd get them, and whether it would require a group buy, is left to a reader exercise.
¹or "Rafi" — they can't make their mind up on the spelling
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I don't know the MOQ and prices are, but RAFI� still make Hall effect switches:
http://www.rafi.de/RS-76-full-travel-keyswitches.165.0.html?&L=1
How you'd get them, and whether it would require a group buy, is left to a reader exercise.
�or "Rafi" � they can't make their mind up on the spelling
Interesting they also have led illuminated ones too.
http://shop.rafi.de/productgroup.php?pgsn=312&pgid=450&chaptersn=4688&chapterid=450&dbtype=Chapter&chash=b16fa9
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The going rate for actual keyboards seems to be about $40-$60 depending
Huh? The prices on the items you linked are from $200 to $1000. A little spendy.
because he linked the really rare/awesome stuff. It's not hard to find cheaper stuff.
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The going rate for actual keyboards seems to be about $40-$60 depending
Huh? The prices on the items you linked are from $200 to $1000. A little spendy.
That's 'cause I bought all the ones that were cheaper. This is just what's on eBay now to show that they are available to people who don't want to wait. Another board in that range shows up every few months with decent regularity.
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The last few weeks I 3D printed some prototype Hall Effect key switches. I was trying to design switches that were kept up by magnetic levitation in a shaft instead of springs.
My design could also read analogue values so that you could do things like detect half-pressed keys. I also explored the idea of using micro-controlled electromagnets to create custom programmable force curves.
However, I had to scrap the project since it turned out that in order to levitate the keys I had to use strong rare earth magnets which interfered with adjacent switches and caused weird repulsion effects. I also couldn't get tight enough tolerances for smooth sliding from the 3D printer I was using. It could still work with springs and weaker magnets though. I have some CAD files and a list of good Hall effect sensors if anyone wants.
Some observations from my prototypes:
- With magnetic levitation the feel is very smooth and you can have super long travel as well as very low force activation.
- The shafts that the keys levitate in have to be very smooth or else it feels scratchy.
- The tolerances must be very tight so that the key doesn't wiggle and scrape on the shaft.
- Ratiometric analogue hall effect sensors are really nice, I ordered a bunch of types that I can test under different circumstances if people want.
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The last few weeks I 3D printed some prototype Hall Effect key switches. I was trying to design switches that were kept up by magnetic levitation in a shaft instead of springs.
My design could also read analogue values so that you could do things like detect half-pressed keys. I also explored the idea of using micro-controlled electromagnets to create custom programmable force curves.
However, I had to scrap the project since it turned out that in order to levitate the keys I had to use strong rare earth magnets which interfered with adjacent switches and caused weird repulsion effects. I also couldn't get tight enough tolerances for smooth sliding from the 3D printer I was using. It could still work with springs and weaker magnets though. I have some CAD files and a list of good Hall effect sensors if anyone wants.
Some observations from my prototypes:
- With magnetic levitation the feel is very smooth and you can have super long travel as well as very low force activation.
- The shafts that the keys levitate in have to be very smooth or else it feels scratchy.
- The tolerances must be very tight so that the key doesn't wiggle and scrape on the shaft.
- Ratiometric analogue hall effect sensors are really nice, I ordered a bunch of types that I can test under different circumstances if people want.
That's an awesome project. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on it. I wonder if you could try and find a place that has a better 3D printer with better tolerances.
I'd be very grateful if you could share your 3D files in the resources thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50528.0), CAD resources hub (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47744.0), or if you made your own thread with the info. Of course, I understand if you don't want to share it publically. Those prototypes look like a lot of fun.
And please please please keep us updated on what you're working on. Would love to see how this turns out :D.
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All the CAD files can be found at https://github.com/trishume/CADIdeas (https://github.com/trishume/CADIdeas) but they are pure prototypes and are actually Ruby programs that generate OpenSCAD files.
I'm currently working on a design for a chorded keyboard based on http://velotype.com/en/ (http://velotype.com/en/) but far cheaper and using modified Cherry MX Brown switches for lower activation force.
I've played around with cutting and stretching Cherry springs and managed to make some decent 25g force switches.
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I like you already. That sounds awesome.
Welcome to GH!
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I like you already. That sounds awesome.
Welcome to GH!
Thanks! I've been lurking for about a month now but finally found the right thread for my first post.
My local library opened a practically free 3D printing and laser cutting space so I have access to the means to produce my own keyboard.
I had planned on making a fully analogue chording maglev keyboard with electromagnetic force control but my plans were foiled by the laws of magnetism.
So I've dialed back my ambitions to just a chorded keyboard, which I plan on finishing by the end of July.
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yeah, hackerspaces are the best
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Additive 3D printers are all either terrible or ridiculously expensive. Just use a CNC cutter to make molds for your little parts.
Someone linked this on another thread recently; it’s great: http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/ch1/
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Additive 3D printers are all either terrible or ridiculously expensive. Just use a CNC cutter to make molds for your little parts.
Someone linked this on another thread recently; it’s great: http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/ch1/
That's a cool article! The 3D printer I have access to is pretty nice (Projet 1500, tolerance of 0.25mm) but not quite good enough for smoothly sliding plastic switches.
Resin casting looks cool and would be good for making lots of switches, but I'd need to find a local CNC mill shop that does one-offs for somewhat cheap. It also looks like the resins and casting equipment are somewhat expensive up front as well.
I don't have a large enough budget for this project, but I'll keep this in mind for future ones. Also anyone else who want to try making hall effect switches should look into this. I'm certainly going to read the whole thing.
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Have you looked here?
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Honeywell_Hall_Effect (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Honeywell_Hall_Effect)
So Honeywell doesn't make them any more. I never liked Hall Effect switches on the old keyboards I used them on, but that was because I only ever encountered linears.
That makes me think that tactile Hall Effect switches might be very hard to find; given what is said about how reliable those keyswitches were, and that the tactile ones are claimed in the wiki article to have a very good feel, that is a pity. But then, in today's computer market, probably Hall Effect switches aren't made for the same reason that beam spring keyboards aren't made - the market for keyboards is mostly focused on cheap ones.
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Does anyone have a video/sound clip of Hall Effect switches? A quick search on Youtube doesn't turn up anything.
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Does anyone have a video/sound clip of Hall Effect switches? A quick search on Youtube doesn't turn up anything.
There's a few Hall Effect switches out there, there is no "generic" sound.
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Shows how much I know about them, then. Thanks for the info. :thumb: Would be interested to see/hear anything that's readily available.
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Shows how much I know about them, then. Thanks for the info. :thumb: Would be interested to see/hear anything that's readily available.
I couldn't find anything :(
Haata has some cool other vintage switches though: https://www.youtube.com/user/triplehaata/videos
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Have you looked here?
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Honeywell_Hall_Effect (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Honeywell_Hall_Effect)
So Honeywell doesn't make them any more. I never liked Hall Effect switches on the old keyboards I used them on, but that was because I only ever encountered linears.
That makes me think that tactile Hall Effect switches might be very hard to find; given what is said about how reliable those keyswitches were, and that the tactile ones are claimed in the wiki article to have a very good feel, that is a pity. But then, in today's computer market, probably Hall Effect switches aren't made for the same reason that beam spring keyboards aren't made - the market for keyboards is mostly focused on cheap ones.
The tactile and clicky hall effect switches I have are terrible. I don't know of any others than the one keyboard I found that had them.
I finally took one apart (destructively, sadly) and figured out how they work though.
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Is this Necro? Sorry if it is...I can't find any timestamps BUT
I was looking on Ebay and found this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honeywell-MicroSwitch-Keyboard-1979-mdl-KB713D12-5-C-/191160806541?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c82126c8d
YELLOW! I like yellow, and it's "less than $100". I REALLY want to buy this keyboard, but I am clueless on what to do adapterwise. I have a PS/2 port on my PC, (but USB would also work) and ~$300 to spend on an adapter/a series of adapters, and the keyboard itself. One problem, as mentioned earlier, I have no clue where to start.
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That's been on eBay forever. VCM (The seller) has a ton of stuff that he re-lists every week and I have to skip over it.
I also usually try to pay $60 or less for my hall effect keyboards. Here's some that were recently sold in that range
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251559590900
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251554470488
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261486276680
(I didn't get any of the above: still looking for a job)
As far as converting them to USB: Some work IS going into that effort right now. There's been some posting on how to convert them. Basically you can get NKRO without diodes by wiring them up in a specific way. Sadly, the KB needs a PCB of some sort, as the sensors are not connected to the switches. The PCB is bolted to the mounting plate and holds everything together.
It looks like there's no logic on the PCB, so if you're okay with 2KRO, it'd be pretty easy to wire one up.
Since the switch outputs 5V directly and don't need debouncing, it should be pretty easy to write controller software for it. Some has even already been made for HaaTa's "haatapad" hall effect tenkey.
https://gitorious.org/kiibohd-controller (also supports a large number of other keyboards with various modules and things).
So can you convert it to USB? Yes. Is it easy? not really for a beginner. It is easier than some other projects, since you don't have to worry about a lot of things (one big reason why they used these keyswitches in the first place.) It's VERY easy to detect if a switch is pressed or not. You don't even have to worry about hysteresis or debouncing (for contact switches) or sensitivity thresholds(for capacitive). With a little help it wouldn't be too bad.
There's some other things you can do. I do plan to convert mine, but that's on the shelf until I get some more pressing projects (y'know for other people) out of the way.
So that's where to start. If you're really serious about this, I can help you, but it'll be easier once I get mine all done and working, so I can point out any problems and pitfalls along the way.
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Yeah, I find that I like to spend less money on stuff, as do most people, I think.
As I am fairly new to internal electronics, and fairly new to keyboards, (I know all the popular keyswitches and boards and brands, but not really internals and advanced modding) http://bit.ly/1sNUh1h
But seriously, if you have free time, I am serious about getting a Hall Effect, preferably an older model, (Like a late 60's model to a mid 70's, weren't they discontinued in the 90's?) But I've been looking at all these hall effect boards on ebay, like the one I linked, and the eBay's suggestions from what you linked, and I was thinking, maybe just screw a PCB altogether? I've seen people do that and just directly wire all the switches to a Teensy, maybe that will work here? Desolder the entire PCB, wire all the switches to the controller manually, and from there, use the PCB as a backplate, if a better one cannot be found or made?
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As far as I know the only late 1960's hall effect keyboards were from HP (and based on one description: very interesting and difficult to get working on USB) Microswitch (honeywell) introduced their hall effect line in the early 1970's. You are correct: from what we are able to determine, they produced these all the way through the mid 1990's. Quite a long run indeed.
You may have some trouble finding a model that old: I only have two (1976 and 1977) and most of the hall effect keyboards I've seen are from the early-to-mid 1980's (and are single magnet types)
Keep in mind that a lot of the keyboards that eBay suggests are completely different. Check here before buying to ensure it's actually hall effect.
So, as I said, you really do need a PCB, as the hall sensors are not attached to the switches by anything (in the single magnet version, they are held in place by a little friction.) You can do direct wire, but you need something to hold the switches in place. You have a few options:
1. Use the original PCB and put up with lower Key rollover (potentially)
2. Desodler the original PCB, clip the traces, resolder and re-rivet the PCB (or bolt, depending on what type you have) and then "direct wire" over the PCB, just using the PCB to hold the sensors in place
3. replace the PCB with a new one of your own design.
With "single magnet" switches, you maybe can get away without a PCB, you'll just have to be extremely careful so the hall sensors don't fall out or get misaligned.
Once you're done, you'll have a pretty sweet gaming keyboard. Hall effect switches have excellent performance and are also rated for thirty billion actuations or so (three orders of magnitude above cherry, and other contact based switches)
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I was wondering if you could verify that these three are actually hall effect keyboards.
http://bit.ly/TuRZ6J
http://bit.ly/1qoWPB8
http://bit.ly/UZ9r4w
I'm pretty sure that the last one is hall effect, as the keyboard is listed as Micro Switch/Honeywell,
And yea, when I blurted out direct wiring, I was thinking that I could just desolder all of the switches from the PCB, while still using the circuit board in the structure, as you mentioned how that was how it also had that role in the keyboard, and directly wire the switches to the controller over the PCB. That would work, right?
So when you say that if I were typing on the board using the original PCB as originally designed, it was built originally with ~2KRO, or something to that effect?
"resolder and re-rivet the PCB" -The understanding of the re-riveting the PCB that I got from it would be that the PCB is riveted in the structure of the case, its role in holding the keyboard together, held in place by rivets. But resoldering? What would you have to resolder on the PCB?
I don't think I could design and make my own custom PCB for this/these boards.
Yeah, I don't really want to try anything that could potentially mess up the sensors.
And this is why I am doing this! I do game a lot, and having a keyboard like this, I could imagine gaming on it would be amazing, and I can't wait to. I heard Hall Effect keyboards are amazing to use. I am hoping to get a really old hall effect keyboard working, and eventually try to 3D print my own case for it, although the total case would be pretty big for it, and it would be a process that would probably have to be done in sections. 30B actuations? Doesn't Cherry brag about 50 million? In all seriousness, this could be my lifelong keyboard, considering if I would actually manage to get it working...I mean it's already about 40 years old, right?
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Will they take this seriously?
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only the third one is. The other two are keytronic foam&foil.
The seller (cellarnow) recently sold a bunch of hall effect boards, so that's maybe why they popped up on your search?
As far as re-riveting the PCB, it depends on what sort of hall effect switch it is. the "dual magnet" style switches are riveted to the PCB, and the "single magnet" style switches are usually screwed down to the PCB (you can actually screw down each switch individually: there's a screw hole under all of them. Some have a standoff that's screwed down as well, like many cherry KBs with plates.
So with no modification to the PCB, you could very likely get a 2KRO (or possibly 4KRO) keyboard. All the switches' power are wired up in parallel, and the outputs are usually wired up normally. Since there are two outputs wired to two separate matricies, you might be able to get 4KRO, but it's just a guess for now.
If you desolder the PCB, cut all the traces, then resolder all the switches to it, you can do your direct-wiring scheme in a few different ways and get NKRO out of it.
re-soldering the switches (technically just the sensors) to the PCB just keeps them in place. then you direct wire to a controller of your choice "under" the PCB.
Making a custom PCB for your personal board is a great solution. You can even home-etch it. it solves a lot of problems.
about messing up the sensors: they're pretty tough. they are mounted to either a black plastic case with a window (dual magnet) or to a ceramic PCB (single magnet). Single magnet is much more common, and is the hall KB you have linked.
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The switches really last forever since there's no contact: nothing to wear out. That said, I have several boards that show evidence of switch replacement. They were sued in a very industrial setting though, which could explain it.
I also have a board with significant wear on the stems that's not too great to type on. If you keep it maintained (just lube the stems every once-in-a-while, etc.) then you should be okay. after some care restoring it the heavily worn switches still type well. The KB is currently in pieces awaiting my further restoration.
One other thing to note: they're not always the best to actually use. There's not a lot of modifiers on the spacebar row. This can be fixed with some keyboards, but you can always cut a new hole for a switch in the case and put a new key location down. Especially if you are designing your own pcb for it.
oh: another thing. Signature plastics can make keycaps for these switches. I have no idea why, but I received several in the "crap bags" that I have tested and do fit fine. they're not as nice as genuine keycaps (well some of the later keycaps look almost identical, but the older ones are nicer for sure), but work perfectly, and are nice and thick (like SP's SA keycaps)
hope this helps!
Will they take this seriously?
Doubt it but it cant hurt to ask.
http://sensing.honeywell.com/index.php?ci_id=47847
read some of the above paper on it: its more general: about all hall switches, not just for keyboards, but the beginning is a real wealth of information, it's where the 30 billion number came from.
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Tell me if this would work.
I buy the third keyboard that I linked. I unscrew the PCB, then I unscrew all the switches from the PCB. I then proceed to desolder the entire PCB, then cut all the traces. From there, I re-solder the switches to the PCB to hold them in place. I then make a direct wiring scheme to a Teensy that I would install, giving me NKRO. Then I would screw the PCB back in place and have a working keyboard. Seems pretty simply, if I got all the steps right.
How would I make a custom PCB? Is there a company that takes custom designs and then makes it for you? I'm not sure how that would work.
The switches lasting forever gave me the idea that I could use this keyboard for the rest of my life, which I find to be pretty amazing.
Yea, if I'm going to succeed in doing this, I would certainly take care of my very own vintage keyboard. Applying lubricant to the stems every once in a while seems like a really easy thing to do.
What kind of restoration would I have to perform on the keyboard? I would assume just a thorough cleaning and lubrication would do it? Since these keyboards were ripped out of an all-in-one unit, and it's just the board with no legitimate case for it, I was thinking about 3-D printing a case for it, although I am not really sure how feasible that would be.
Addressing the modifier problem, since I would be manually wiring the switches, and since I don't really use the number-pad (I have a QuickFire Rapid TKL as my daily driver), I could map those switches to be my Ctrl, Alt, and Super keys, and use the number row to enter in numbers.
The key-caps in the listing SEEM to be in good condition, but I will make note of your information on Signature Plastics, thank you.
Yes, thank you so much! This actually helped a lot.
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I have never typed on a Hall Effect keyboard. How much travel do they have?
What happens when you bottom out the keypress?
Is it like a Cherry MX switch where a hard piece of plastic rams into a steel plate?
According to this Honeywell Hall Effect PDF http://sensing.honeywell.com/index.php?ci_id=47847 (http://sensing.honeywell.com/index.php?ci_id=47847) the total amount of travel is only 3.18 mm with only 1.02mm of travel beyond the point of activation. If this is true then I would be constantly bottoming out every keypress. (ouch!)
Can Hall Effect switches be modified somehow to provide a soft squishy ergonomical user experience? (Like installing foam padding in Cherry MX switches somewhat achieves.)
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1. I have never typed on a Hall Effect keyboard. How much travel do they have?
2. What happens when you bottom out the keypress?
3. Is it like a Cherry MX switch where a hard piece of plastic rams into a steel plate?
4. According to this Honeywell Hall Effect PDF http://sensing.honeywell.com/index.php?ci_id=47847 (http://sensing.honeywell.com/index.php?ci_id=47847) the total amount of travel is only 3.18 mm with only 1.02mm of travel beyond the point of activation. If this is true then I would be constantly bottoming out every keypress. (ouch!)
5.Can Hall Effect switches be modified somehow to provide a soft squishy ergonomical user experience? (Like installing foam padding in Cherry MX switches somewhat achieves.)
1. According to the DT wiki 4.1mm if you mean Honeywell Hall Effect switches.
2. Nothing?
3. W-What? Did you mean to ask if they're plate mounted?
4. I'm not sure but I don't think the switch that is described in there is an actual key switch. According to the DT wiki total travel is 4.1mm and pretravel is 2.3mm.
5. Most likely yes. I think you're better off using Cherry MX switches though if you want to mod them.