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geekhack Marketplace => Interest Checks => Topic started by: mkawa on Thu, 08 May 2014, 13:00:47
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Folks,
I've been talking to a number of people who want to come together and celebrate smallfry's life. Yesterday, we bounced the idea of a 110 red on red keyset that harkens to one of his favorite boards. We've been talking about the economics of it, and what we've come up with instead is a group buy of JD40 40% boards. I'll let jdcarpe talk about how he and smallfry worked together on the 40% board idea, but the basic idea for the GB will be pretty simple from a participant's point of view.
We are going to build kits to make JD40 boards. The layout will not be customizable. It will be a basic winkeyless layout with possible one small change for a key that acknowledges and celebrates nathan's profound influence on the board, both the keyboard and the forum.
each kit will come with:
1x titanium switch plate
1x PCB
2x acrylic spacers
1x aluminum bottom plate
1x bumpon kit
1x red on red keyset designed specifically for this board
1x titanium switch plate
1x titanium bottom plate
1x sorbothane spacer gasket
1x PCB
1x bumpon kit
1x fastener set
the smaller size of the keyset will keep keyset costs reasonable. the titanium will be polymer coated for durability, and the aluminum will be either protected or colored via anodization or powder.
any and all money made on this GB over the cost of materials and labor will go towards the nathaniel j walter foundation. assembly services will be available, details TBD.
we miss you nathan. :(
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
update: regardless of what goes under the titanium switch plate, the switch plate will NOT have switch-opening notches. If you want switch-opening notches: head here http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58073.msg1333490#msg1333490 to purchase. limited quantity available. Note that proceeds from the notched switch plates will not go to the NJW foundation.
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Great cause, great board and colourway.
Interested.
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I am also in for this.
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Is it possible to get just JD40 kit without caps?
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Any idea on how many will be produced?
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I'm certainly interested.
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Can we get the caps without the board?
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Is it possible to get just JD40 kit without caps?
Can we get the caps without the board?
^^ compromise? :D
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The layout will not be customizable.
Am I correct in interpreting this as the physical layout not being customizable but the controller (Teensy?) still being fully programmable? For that matter, do we need to supply our own controller?
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Is it possible to get just JD40 kit without caps?
Can we get the caps without the board?
^^ compromise? :D
hah! sounds good to me :)
to simplify things, sets will come with all of the items listed
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The layout will not be customizable.
Am I correct in interpreting this as the physical layout not being customizable but the controller (Teensy?) still being fully programmable? For that matter, do we need to supply our own controller?
yes, and good question. jd has dealt with pjrc before from the previous GB. since fulfillment will probably just be JD and I, it should be easy to include a teensy with the kit.
as for how many will be made, we have to determine the multiples of units that can be yielded from each piece of material, but we generally want to include everyone who wants one.
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Can we get the caps without the board?
Making the caps available on the side would allow us who already have a JD40 to participate, which would be much appreciated. It shouldn't drastically complicate things since caps will already have to be a separate order from PCB's/plates…
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Just wanted to add a little note here. SmallFry didn't really design the 40% keyboard with me, but he was very supportive of my design in our personal conversations. It was the first new design of mine to be realized after we lost SmallFry, so I decided I should name the new keyboard after him. Regack was kind enough to include the dedication to SmallFry on the new revision PCBs, but these older revision PCBs won't have that.
We should probably include a Teensy and header pins with each kit, as well as diodes and a few other components that will be needed to build these.
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I don't want to derail this topic at all, but anyone know where he found his keyset for the F122?
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Interested ! :)
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I don't want to derail this topic at all, but anyone know where he found his keyset for the F122?
He Rit dyed them.
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Can we get the caps without the board?
Making the caps available on the side would allow us who already have a JD40 to participate, which would be much appreciated. It shouldn't drastically complicate things since caps will already have to be a separate order from PCB's/plates…
one of the major problems is that unless there are a lot of takers, we would like to limit the cap set to 40% for pricing reasons
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Can we get the caps without the board?
Making the caps available on the side would allow us who already have a JD40 to participate, which would be much appreciated. It shouldn't drastically complicate things since caps will already have to be a separate order from PCB's/plates…
one of the major problems is that unless there are a lot of takers, we would like to limit the cap set to 40% for pricing reasons
He's asking if the 40% keyset can be made available to people separate from the keyboard kit. Because there are a few of these keyboards already in the wild now.
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Colour me interested :thumb:
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oh, sure.
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Yup, JD and Riot got me covered :D.
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Is there any sort of a rough ballpark idea on price for these? I would love to try out a 40%. It will be one hell of a transition from full sized.
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I know you sell JD40 kits for 200$, now this even has a titanium plate and a keyset so I suppose the price will be quite high? I am interested in one but I don't know how much I would pay for this :-X
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Thanks bluebar. Looks like I need to get this bolt modded M of mine sold pretty quickly.
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I know you sell JD40 kits for 200$, now this even has a titanium plate and a keyset so I suppose the price will be quite high? I am interested in one but I don't know how much I would pay for this :-X
Well, that is with switches, and assembly labor. And the fact that I order the components in small batches keeps the price high for me.
In some volume order, the PCBs will be cheaper, plates will be cheaper (well, the Ti will be more expensive, but you get what I mean), etc.
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I know you sell JD40 kits for 200$, now this even has a titanium plate and a keyset so I suppose the price will be quite high? I am interested in one but I don't know how much I would pay for this :-X
Well, that is with switches, and assembly labor. And the fact that I order the components in small batches keeps the price high for me.
In some volume order, the PCBs will be cheaper, plates will be cheaper (well, the Ti will be more expensive, but you get what I mean), etc.
Any chance the new 40% PCB will be ready?
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Well, that is with switches, and assembly labor. And the fact that I order the components in small batches keeps the price high for me.
In some volume order, the PCBs will be cheaper, plates will be cheaper (well, the Ti will be more expensive, but you get what I mean), etc.
With that amount of switches they don't make a big impact though :))
Well as I said it depends on the price for me. I like the 40% form factor, it's just cute :3
On the other side I don't know if I could use a 40% as my main keyboard, which is what held me off of buying one.
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we're looking at ti switch plates only. a ton of 40%s can fit on one of these sheets. further, i have been working with my cutter on reducing cutting cost significantly.
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I'm 100% in.
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Potentially in. I've been waiting on the development of JD's 40% design and for a kit to become available. What's the layout going to be, exactly? I had some caps already in mind for a 40% but if it's winkeyless they will probably not fit...
EDIT: I've ordered these with the hope I'd be able to use them on a JD40/SmallFry board, at some point.
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/b/b7/HONEY_FORTY.png)
Also, if this is the first version of the PCB, what's it lacking vs. the revised version that's still in the works? Sorry if this information is already out there somewhere and I've missed it.
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totally in for this. I've been moving down in size since my very first fullsize, so I guess this is the final progression
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Hm, this'll be interesting. I just hope the 40% layout won't mess me up when I type on other keyboards. :p
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I AM IN
so so freaking in.
titanium. awesome.
40%. baller.
self assembly. OH YA.
'skin' case layering. :cool:
led support?
comes with switch tool?
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switch tools would have to be coordinated with the_beast if there are any droppings left that could be used to cut them
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would people prefer a titanium bottom plate or is aluminum fine? the advantage of titanium is: it looks cool and it is a heck of a lot stronger than aluminum sheet.
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also, we can get little aluminum feet made. i don't think this will add much marginal cost to the price, and we have drawings for these already
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would people prefer a titanium bottom plate or is aluminum fine?
You might get a larger overall saturation if you offered both: aluminum to the folks whose wallet hasn't recovered from its last hack, and Ti for those in a position to go all the way.
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if we do two materials, the labor cost of cutting is going to double, which will negate any potential cost savings. volume and uniformity is essential to cost cutting
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would people prefer a titanium bottom plate or is aluminum fine? the advantage of titanium is: it looks cool and it is a heck of a lot stronger than aluminum sheet.
I would prefer Titanium personally.
also, we can get little aluminum feet made. i don't think this will add much marginal cost to the price, and we have drawings for these already
And I would love to have feet. Much more important to me then the Titanium bottom plate, though I would still love that. ;D
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How much would Titanium top, bottom & feet cost? :cool:
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I would prefer an Al bottom plate since it's lighter (planning for a board to carry around. Every g counts :) )
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titanium would be lighter because the aluminum sheet would need to be thicker to get the same rigidity
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How much would Titanium top, bottom & feet cost? :cool:
i don't have access to the thickness of titanium needed to make feet. they would be 6061 alu
cost depends on how we end up building this thing and how many get made.
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Ah, I will change my preference to Ti in that case. :)
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Titanium bottom + feet is my vote.
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Ti top, ti bottom, and aluminum feet in brushed.
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Potentially interested, it looks quite alluring though.
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i think we're going to run a prototype of this with top and bottom titanium (no feet yet -- that will take some time to grab the drawings and gathering quotes)
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With a layout this small wouldn't a plate be overkill?
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With a layout this small wouldn't a plate be overkill?
No because TITANIUM.
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not really. see: all the original PCB mounted pokers with ABS case. the PCB flexed like crazy and was a major problem point for that board.
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not really. see: all the original PCB mounted pokers with ABS case. the PCB flexed like crazy and was a major problem point for that board.
The Poker Mk1 was a cheap SOB - which they corrected (somewhat) on the Pure. That being said, Vortex product in general isn't exactly stellar quality. Even the Cherry G80-11900 is more stable for a PCB mounted application and it is much larger. Unfortunately PCB mount style has started dying out and it's a shame because they do give a very unique feel and sound.
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standard pcb thickness is 1.6mm, and the material is always some variant of FR4/G10. the only way to make a pcb more rigid is to increase the tie points to something more rigid. the cherry pcb mount boards basically have a pcb flush with a large plastic plate behind it with a whole bunch of tie points. metal plates basically seal the deal. i had two pokers that i plated with aluminum plates up top and 12mm plates behind, and that was basically the only way i could get the poker pcb to stop flexing.
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not really. see: all the original PCB mounted pokers with ABS case. the PCB flexed like crazy and was a major problem point for that board.
The Poker Mk1 was a cheap SOB - which they corrected (somewhat) on the Pure. That being said, Vortex product in general isn't exactly stellar quality. Even the Cherry G80-11900 is more stable for a PCB mounted application and it is much larger. Unfortunately PCB mount style has started dying out and it's a shame because they do give a very unique feel and sound.
I'm using a Pure now with stock ABS and I'm trying to come up with an onomatopoeia for the sound and the best i can do is that it gives a tak tak tak tak sound as I bottom out repeatedly while pressing B.
That's an "a" as in how you would pronounce "arh" in "ark", not "ay" as in "tray"
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interested
will be an interesting keyboard to carry everywhere
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I'd be in for caps and a Ti plate. :)
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I got a 40% proto I loaded w/ clears w/o a plate. Keep pulling the switches apart when trying to get a cap off... Wouldn't want this w/o a plate ;)
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I am also very interested.
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Definitely in.
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I'd be in for caps and a Ti plate. :)
you'll need to find a buyer for the bottom plate if you don't want it. we will be cutting these in matched pairs.
note: check out the currently running buy in artisan services if you only want a top plate. we are about to cut a single sheet with any design you can fit on the sheet, nested for cost savings. that buy is also utilizing a cutter that has a press bender with titanium friendly tooling if you want a full bent-flange 40% one-piece case.
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If I may ask, what exactly is going to separate the top and bottom plate? Is there going to be another layer or spacers?
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What I read so far is quite amazing, dedicating a unique keyboard to Smallfry here.
So no one has envisioned the casing yet on what a 40% keyboard would look like? If anyone will produce an illustration you guys need to etch or carve his name into the casing so everyone knows what it is.
Nothing more decent than seeing Smallfry's name emblazoned upon this keyboard, much like LZ-GH's is on their keyboard casings. People need to see his name either on the top plate were the keys are situated or on the sides/back plate.
That way when someone wants to BUY a Smallfry everyone here know's what they mean (besides if it worked for Karl Benz naming his cars after his deceased daughter then it will work for Nathan) :thumb: .
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JD has drawings for acrylic spacer layers, but i'm leaning toward spacers on the fasteners. i'm kind of tired of layered acrylic, even if they're just spacers, and spacers on the fasteners allows for building an angle into the keyboard itself.
further, the spacers could be made out of cut to length polyelastomers: sorbothane carries bushings in various lengths as stock items, and polyurethane extrusions are inexpensive as well. energy absorbing PU springs instead of rigid polycarbonate, and titanium instead of aluminum would make for the deadened feeling of a large heavy keyboard in a very tiny and light one.
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can youndraw a picture? i'm really not sure what you're talking about
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can youndraw a picture? i'm really not sure what you're talking about
(http://i.imgur.com/P1hzD8l.jpg)
Picture from Sifo (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47644.msg1048405#msg1048405)
See the pink part? The layers mkawa is talking about is that pink part which is a polycarbonate sheet sandwiched between aluminum plates. The sample picture I posted is a GON.
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This would be "spacers on the fasteners"
(http://i.imgur.com/gUj7qt8.jpg)
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yah, so JD's picture is fasteners with some sort of spacing coupler or shaft that just surrounds the fastener and keeps the two plates at a given distance from each other.
the other option is to fully enclose the space between the plates with layers of acrylic.
the former option is cheaper and allows the front and back heights to be non-equal. acrylic is often used as a light guide though, since light tends to diffuse through the material. if you had leds on the underside of the board in JD's picture, you'd see a bunch of point light sources in the reflection, but not get the diffused glow that's in cptbadass' picture
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yah, so JD's picture is fasteners with some sort of spacing coupler or shaft that just surrounds the fastener and keeps the two plates at a given distance from each other.
the other option is to fully enclose the space between the plates with layers of acrylic.
the former option is cheaper and allows the front and back heights to be non-equal. acrylic is often used as a light guide though, since light tends to diffuse through the material. if you had leds on the underside of the board in JD's picture, you'd see a bunch of point light sources in the reflection, but not get the diffused glow that's in cptbadass' picture
I think going for the acrylic in CPTBadAss and using feet to change the height is the best option.
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alu feet and acrylic are both going to cost money over spacers and bumpons, but hey, if people want it we make it :)
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I much prefer spacers and the barebones, homebuilt aesthetic.
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Just want to commend the effort here. Nice work people :thumb:
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another point on the acrylic is that it's going to obscure the bottom plate. in that case we might as well make the bottom plate thicker aluminum.
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If this ends up looking like a 40% GON I am certainly happy with that as a result :P
On the other hand, I think there's something to be said for the home-built look and keeping the price down.
I'm good for either.
Any update on the layout yet?
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alu feet and acrylic are both going to cost money over spacers and bumpons, but hey, if people want it we make it :)
Yeah, if it becomes to expensive then the full acrylic isn't necessary, but I think the feet are really a must have.
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i'm going to vote for full acrylic layer.
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Is it possible to just get the PCB and plate? I want to DIY a case and then get one cut out of aluminum later
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I'm down for this, TI to the max. I'd like the option to buy spacers and acrylic because I'd like to be able to do both depending on mood and such.
I don't remember seeing it, but would the JD40 plate allow switch housing removal? If yes then this would be a cool board to have around to swap switches or springs for experimenting since it wouldn't be as many switches as a 60-80% board to swap out.
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Is it possible to just get the PCB and plate? I want to DIY a case and then get one cut out of aluminum later
I think mkawa wants to do them as kits, really. But the plate is the case here, so I don't really know what you mean by "DIY a case."
I'm down for this, TI to the max. I'd like the option to buy spacers and acrylic because I'd like to be able to do both depending on mood and such.
I don't remember seeing it, but would the JD40 plate allow switch housing removal? If yes then this would be a cool board to have around to swap switches or springs for experimenting since it wouldn't be as many switches as a 60-80% board to swap out.
My suggestion would be to make the spacers as default, and have the acrylic spacer layer available for anyone who wants to buy it as an add-on.
And yes, my drawings have the correct openings. :)
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I'm down for this, TI to the max. I'd like the option to buy spacers and acrylic because I'd like to be able to do both depending on mood and such.
I don't remember seeing it, but would the JD40 plate allow switch housing removal? If yes then this would be a cool board to have around to swap switches or springs for experimenting since it wouldn't be as many switches as a 60-80% board to swap out.
This. I'd love cutouts for switch swapping on this board. It doesn't really cost more to make, right?
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the cutouts aren't going to be possible with the cutting method we're using for cost reasons.
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if you want cutouts, check out this thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58073.0
and have a top plate made _now_. this cutter can hold the tolerances needed to do notches
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the cutouts aren't going to be possible with the cutting method we're using for cost reasons.
Oh, I didn't know we were back to WJ for cutting switch plates.
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I'm down for this, TI to the max. I'd like the option to buy spacers and acrylic because I'd like to be able to do both depending on mood and such.
I don't remember seeing it, but would the JD40 plate allow switch housing removal? If yes then this would be a cool board to have around to swap switches or springs for experimenting since it wouldn't be as many switches as a 60-80% board to swap out.
This. I'd love cutouts for switch swapping on this board. It doesn't really cost more to make, right?
It actually adds a pretty substantial amount in To due to the much slower fees rates with the cutter.
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the cutouts aren't going to be possible with the cutting method we're using for cost reasons.
Oh, I didn't know we were back to WJ for cutting switch plates.
the cutting fees get "cut" in half on the WJ. i'd rather keep costs down and keep it to a single cutter for a large run
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Full acrylic (with aluminum backplate if that's the case) would be nice - it would look something like a 40% GON.
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Full acrylic (with aluminum backplate if that's the case) would be nice - it would look something like a 40% GON.
In other words, amazing :D
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we're only going to be able to go with one of the two options. full Ti without acrylic or Ti top, alu bottom with full acrylic. the way we're going to cut the Ti involves stacking Ti sheets and using a multi-headed waterjet. it's a bit of a dance to cut, but the radio edit is that there has to be a high degree of uniformity in our cuts.
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we're only going to be able to go with one of the two options. full Ti without acrylic or Ti top, alu bottom with full acrylic. the way we're going to cut the Ti involves stacking Ti sheets and using a multi-headed waterjet. it's a bit of a dance to cut, but the radio edit is that there has to be a high degree of uniformity in our cuts.
Awesome, thanks for the options!
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I vote full ti with no acrylic.
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mkawa, you and JD should set up a poll to keep track of people's votes and how many people legitimately buy a kit.
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I vote full ti with no acrylic.
Well damn, my reading comprehension skills stink something awful. I originally read mkawa's post as giving us both options, not choosing one of the two. :-[
My vote is for the acrylic and aluminum backplate.
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full acrylic.
look like i'm going to have to buy my titanium from the cut and bend and get my acrylic + pcb from here lol.
the kit will include diodes?
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full acrylic.
look like i'm going to have to buy my titanium from the cut and bend and get my acrylic + pcb from here lol.
the kit will include diodes?
I thought the acrylic wasn't being produced if it doesn't win the vote? (And in the case where it does win the vote, wouldn't it be more convenient to buy it from here?)
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yah, the acrylic isn't going to be produced if it's a significant cost and/or there isn't sufficient demand. one material one cut is going to be the most cost effective, even if that material is high grade titanium.
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I vote full ti with no acrylic.
x2
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If we went full Ti, would it be possible to add an acrylic layer at a later date? A mini buy for those who wanted that option, if it turns out to be the less popular of the two.
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If we went full Ti, would it be possible to add an acrylic layer at a later date? A mini buy for those who wanted that option, if it turns out to be the less popular of the two.
Yes, you can always add the acrylic spacer layer at a later time.
BTW, for the thru-hole PCB this is based on, you would need 12mm of separation between the plates, minimum, for the Teensy's USB connector. So normally, that would mean two 6mm spacer layers.
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i think that's a better plan
i'd like to keep production as simple as humanly possible right now
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i'd like to keep production as simple as humanly possible right now
That's probably very wise!
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i'd like to keep production as simple as humanly possible right now
Nice, group buys tend to spiral out control. This is delightful news.
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I remember my stock Poker II being so light that even the resistance of the cable could push the board around. If you have a 40% board with acrylic or titanium then I can imagine this being even more of a nuisance.
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full acrylic.
look like i'm going to have to buy my titanium from the cut and bend and get my acrylic + pcb from here lol.
the kit will include diodes?
I thought the acrylic wasn't being produced if it doesn't win the vote? (And in the case where it does win the vote, wouldn't it be more convenient to buy it from here?)
that's my vote.
i need to buy my plate no matter what happens because of the lack of cutouts.
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<dances excitedly>
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The JD40 board that I bought from 1pq on the classifieds just arrived at my house today, and I've got to say its a really cool board! Really loving it!
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i had an interesting idea that jd also thinks is cool. i am grabbing a quote on it. hopefully the price will be reasonable.
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notched JD40 switch plates are now available: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58073.msg1333490#msg1333490
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Okay... So the kit will come w/ those ? Or no plate since you sell them now ? Or a notchless plate ?
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the kit will have a notchless plate.
we should be able to offer a kit without a top plate though, for those who opt for the notched plate now
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we should be able to offer a kit without a top plate though, for those who opt for the notched plate now
If you could, that would be most appreciated :D
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+1
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the kit will have a notchless plate.
we should be able to offer a kit without a top plate though, for those who opt for the notched plate now
What is the approximate cost of the total kit, and the cost of the kit without the plate? I'm just wondering about the price difference between the two.
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we're really flying by the seat of our pants here. we definitely don't know how much the kit is going to cost, as we haven't even decided what will be in the kit.
again, flying by the seat of my pants here, i THINK that the notchless plates will cost about 30$ less than the notched plates. the price of materials doesn't change, so it's all in the cutting costs. the argon shielded incredibly precise lasercut that this first piece is getting is expensive, but my guy has been pretty cool about costs so far. for the big runs, the less precise waterjet is going to be a lot cheaper, but again, the material is a fixed and non-trivial cost.
my suggestion, the NJW foundation notwithstanding, is to buy a notchless plate now if you even think you might want one. remember, i'm not going to cut notched titanium plates again, ever. period. nada.
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middle plate sorbothane is a go
the deal is that this will deaden the keyboard and make it feel like a very heavy keyboard does when typing despite an incredibly low total weight.
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middle plate sorbothane is a go
the deal is that this will deaden the keyboard and make it feel like a very heavy keyboard does when typing despite an incredibly low total weight.
Awesome. What are the chances of being able to get counter sunk holes in the plate for mounting hardware?
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middle plate sorbothane is a go
the deal is that this will deaden the keyboard and make it feel like a very heavy keyboard does when typing despite an incredibly low total weight.
Awesome. What are the chances of being able to get counter sunk holes in the plate for mounting hardware?
Chances are pretty good if you own a countersink drill bit. Bwahahaha! ;)
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middle plate sorbothane is a go
the deal is that this will deaden the keyboard and make it feel like a very heavy keyboard does when typing despite an incredibly low total weight.
Awesome. What are the chances of being able to get counter sunk holes in the plate for mounting hardware?
Chances are pretty good if you own a countersink drill bit. Bwahahaha! ;)
They get pricey quick for something that will cut Ti. I have tried to drill it before with standard high speed steel drill bits. Don't work.
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middle plate sorbothane is a go
the deal is that this will deaden the keyboard and make it feel like a very heavy keyboard does when typing despite an incredibly low total weight.
Awesome. What are the chances of being able to get counter sunk holes in the plate for mounting hardware?
Chances are pretty good if you own a countersink drill bit. Bwahahaha! ;)
They get pricey quick for something that will cut Ti. I have tried to drill it before with standard high speed steel drill bits. Don't work.
Yeah, that's the only problem with having plates cut by laser or waterjet...no depth cuts at all. I can't imagine what the price would be for a milled Ti plate.
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middle plate sorbothane is a go
the deal is that this will deaden the keyboard and make it feel like a very heavy keyboard does when typing despite an incredibly low total weight.
Awesome. What are the chances of being able to get counter sunk holes in the plate for mounting hardware?
Chances are pretty good if you own a countersink drill bit. Bwahahaha! ;)
my machine shop can't give me tolerances as tight as the laser can. the material is too thin for the mill. this is sheet metal work.
i have a carbide countersink bit, but with the material being so thin, i don't want to potentially ruin your plate trying to get a countersink in there. further, most countersunk machine screws have a head size taller than 2mm
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ordered the notched plate, super excited!
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how do people feel about the bumpon varieties available off-the-shelf at http://www.bumperspecialties.com/ ?
cptbadass and i bounced some ideas for milled feet around yesterday and it's really really hard to keep costs down on those pieces.
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I'm not sure what style/size feet you'll be sourcing, but my experience with small spherical bump on feet is that they get gooey after a while, and leave a sticky mess at the bottom and are easy to knock off if you're carrying it around.
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sorbothane feet?
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sorbothane feet can tend to be sticky in lower duros, and we're already going to get the dampening of sorbo from the gasket between plates.
the nice thing about bumpons, assuming you can find one that you like the angle and feel of, is that they're really cheap. if they come off, you just put a new set on. they're also super adjustable
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bumpons are fine by me. wasn't going to use the feet anyways.
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:thumb: for bumpons
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yah, ok, i've thought about this, and to keep prices low, we're just going to go with bumpons. i will query the sorbo people and see if they can offer bumpons in quantity with some kind of coating to make them non-sticky and to provide them with top notch PSA that won't come off unless you really abuse them, but if we machine the feet, they're going to cost as much as the rest of the parts combined.
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TODOs on this: keyset pricing and bottom plate: what material? Ti means only one source of material, but aluminum may be slightly more cost effective. my worry with aluminum though is that it has to be finished, which is extra cost. thin stainless is an option, but if you go too thick, you get flexing, and if you go too thick, it weighs a ton and cutting fees will make it just as expensive as the Ti.
basically, we can cut 30pcs of plates out of a single sheet of Ti, which makes the marginal cost on materials pretty low. the cut on stainless and Ti is going to be the most expensive part of the equation.
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Are we talking same prices as the Ti notched plate?
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I'm under the impression a Ti bottom plate would be cheaper than the notched switch plate. I think it would be using a cheaper cutting option + there would be fewer cuts + the cuts are simpler.
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if we have a price estimate for both Al and Ti, it'll be easier to make a decision for the overall build, as well as the prices for other parts (PCB, switches?, LEDs?). I'm all for Ti since i got the notched place, but still, an estimate would be nice.
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at scale, polished titanium sheets are 20$ per 40% sheet. we may have trouble hitting scale only cutting the tops. the other project consuming this material is up in the air at the moment.
anyway, the cut is all time spent under the jet, so it costs about the same amount to cut the alu as the ti. for alu we'd probably do about 3-4mm thick, but it would have to be polished, cut then ano'd OR all the plates would have to be sent for powdering. raw alu isn't going to work, and you can't ano unpolished sheet.
actually, it might cost a bit more to cut the alu because we may not be able to stack it due to the thickness. anyway, think of the ti bottom as possibly saving 15 ish dollars per kit.
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so you're saying Ti is almost cheaper and more resistant that al? so what's the debate about?
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sorry, that should have said "think of the alu bottom as saving 15-ish dollars per kit" and that's a maximum. it could totally end up breaking even
it also increases complexity of obtaining material and so on and so forth
but yah, ti is about as resistant to corrosion as stainless steel, and nearly as strong (alloyed ti is much stronger) but weighs as much or less than alu
i should note that normally, working with titanium is a HUGE pain, as is sourcing it et&c. however, i've developed a network of shops and suppliers that make this pretty much moot at this point.
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Well I say, huzzah for Ti!
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My OCD would kick in if we're mixing Titanium top with an aluminum base. :P
+1 for full Titanium
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Gimme full Ti
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Ti for the win! I already want another 40% board. :p
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Interested in one set :thumb:
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Full titanium!
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HYPE http://www.geekhackers.org/products/jd40-jdcarpe-s-40-keyboard-kit-sorbothane-titanium-all-profits-go-to-the-nathan-j-walters-foundation-rip-smallfry
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HYPE http://www.geekhackers.org/products/jd40-jdcarpe-s-40-keyboard-kit-sorbothane-titanium-all-profits-go-to-the-nathan-j-walters-foundation-rip-smallfry
Jeez, at least list 1 available so shopify can flag the order as fraud. Hue. /ifonlyihadsuchahighcreditlimit
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HYPE http://www.geekhackers.org/products/jd40-jdcarpe-s-40-keyboard-kit-sorbothane-titanium-all-profits-go-to-the-nathan-j-walters-foundation-rip-smallfry
Drats out of stock already. ;)
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HYPE http://www.geekhackers.org/products/jd40-jdcarpe-s-40-keyboard-kit-sorbothane-titanium-all-profits-go-to-the-nathan-j-walters-foundation-rip-smallfry
Jeez, at least list 1 available so shopify can flag the order as fraud. Hue. /ifonlyihadsuchahighcreditlimit
i tried to make it ONE MILLION DOLLARS in full austin powers style, but apparently the max on shopify is all 9s :(
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HYPE http://www.geekhackers.org/products/jd40-jdcarpe-s-40-keyboard-kit-sorbothane-titanium-all-profits-go-to-the-nathan-j-walters-foundation-rip-smallfry
Drat! I can't even afford it... :(
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sorry, that should have said "think of the alu bottom as saving 15-ish dollars per kit" and that's a maximum. it could totally end up breaking even
it also increases complexity of obtaining material and so on and so forth
but yah, ti is about as resistant to corrosion as stainless steel, and nearly as strong (alloyed ti is much stronger) but weighs as much or less than alu
i should note that normally, working with titanium is a HUGE pain, as is sourcing it et&c. however, i've developed a network of shops and suppliers that make this pretty much moot at this point.
For the same volume of rae material Tiweighs more than aluminium. On parts where the shape and mass of the material can be manipulated Ti comes out lighter in a lot of cases due to its different physical properties.
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yah, we'd have had to go with thicker alu sheet
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I've definitely been interested in 40% for a long time. However right now I'm definitely worried about price. Is there any estimate on how much all of this would cost? Also how much would keyboard assembly cost, will there be options for switches to be sold with the set?
I apologize for all the questions but this is the first GB I've been interested and willing to participate in.
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I have wanted to address this for some time now, but never got around to it until now.
This is definitely not a kit for the absolute beginner. I would classify it as an intermediate build. There are a couple quirks to the assembly that could prove frustrating for someone without the proper tools or skills to deal with them. Not to say that it wouldn't be possible for a beginner, but it may be a challenge.
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I have wanted to address this for some time now, but never got around to it until now.
This is definitely not a kit for the absolute beginner. I would classify it as an intermediate build. There are a couple quirks to the assembly that could prove frustrating for someone without the proper tools or skills to deal with them. Not to say that it wouldn't be possible for a beginner, but it may be a challenge.
Can you clarify as to what challenges there are that may pose frustrating for a beginner?
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the only thing i have a 100% solid price on is the material cost and tooling and per piece cost of the sorbothane gasket. i can tell you that at 50pcs, we're looking at a little over 2000$ for tooling and materials so far. i'm going to need to make the first payment on this next week, so i am actively trying to work out a total cost as well as come up with margin for donation to the NJW foundation so that we can officially start the group buy and start taking orders. i should be able to get a number on the cuts on tuesday from my waterjet guy, and JD and I need to powow on the PCB cost. that should be basically the entire picture, as long as we go with bumpons, so cross fingers, the GB will start next week.
just a quick note: i've been trying really hard to make this as affordable as possible while still being kind of a special cool kit with stuff we've never done before. i appreciate everyone's patience as we put everything together.
second note: ironically, i think we may have to skip the keycap set, as set costs at projected quantity are pretty darned high; probably the largest cost we'd encounter.
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the only thing i have a 100% solid price on is the material cost and tooling and per piece cost of the sorbothane gasket. i can tell you that at 50pcs, we're looking at a little over 2000$ for tooling and materials so far. i'm going to need to make the first payment on this next week, so i am actively trying to work out a total cost as well as come up with margin for donation to the NJW foundation so that we can officially start the group buy and start taking orders. i should be able to get a number on the cuts on tuesday from my waterjet guy, and JD and I need to powow on the PCB cost. that should be basically the entire picture, as long as we go with bumpons, so cross fingers, the GB will start next week.
#Hype
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huge thanks to the sorbothane people, by the way, who gave me a discounted quote when i mentioned that our product was for charity. as some may know, i've been talking to them on and off about keyboard applications and they've always been incredibly helpful.
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Can you clarify as to what challenges there are that may pose frustrating for a beginner?
1. The silkscreen is only on the front of the PCB, but the diodes, Teensy, and USB connector need to be soldered onto the back side of the PCB.
2. The solder pads for the diodes are somewhat small, and need care and extra time with the tip of your iron to ensure good heat transfer, thereby ensuring a solid solder joint.
3. The Teensy needs to be soldered flush with the PCB. Spacers must be removed from the pins before soldering the Teensy on, as with the Phantom.
4. The USB connector on the top edge of the PCB needs to be connected electrically to the connector on the Teensy. This means soldering a jumper cable/wires from the USB connector to pads on the PCB, similar to how it's done on the ErgoDox.
I would probably classify the difficulty of assembly as being very similar to that of the ErgoDox.
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why don't we just silkscreen and pad the back of the pcb, add a couple mm of thickness to the gasket and build in a proper ground plane and vcc rail?
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why don't we just silkscreen and pad the back of the pcb, add a couple mm of thickness to the gasket and build in a proper ground plane and vcc rail?
Those would delay the project as a whole, and while not yet on a timeline GBs do tend to run over time and over budget.
But of those, I think the VCC rail offers the greatest frustration-reducing ROI, as dismantling a USB cable for the ergodox is less than satisfying.
The silkscreen thing just means you have to flip back and forth a bunch to verify which goes where but once you remember "all the diodes go to the left" then you don't really have to remember until your next soldering session. Of course, it would hardly (I assume?) add to the cost of production of new boards, and of the current revision, there aren't any already produced, right? So that would be the simplest improvement.
Having removed the spacer from both my phantom project and the ergodox as well, I'd personally say that a thinner board is a more beautiful board. Don't worry about padding just to let the Teensy stand all the way up; I didn't on either of the first two things I ever soldered together, and it wasn't that hard.
[/IMHO]
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Will the diodes for this be through hole or surface mount?
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Will the diodes for this be through hole or surface mount?
Through hole.
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talked with JD and there's no way we can change the PCB to make it any friendlier. that said, it's not actually all that tricky, so i would not say it's a big deal.
regarding ordering, i am just waiting for the waterjet to quote me and then we're off.
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#winning
all excite.
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Interested in a 40% PCB and the possibility of an Aluminum plate.(?)
Just getting into Mechanicals and $200 is a bit steep for me with trying to save for tuition. (although it is for a good cause) I'm looking for a project board to DIY, and a 40% seems like 40% of the work of a full TKL or something. :) (and just a fun form-factor to play with)
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the price should almost certainly come in way under 200 even with donation. i'm going to bug my waterjet guy again for a quote in a minute, but i am trying to get pre-orders up on the store as soon as possible to get this show on the road, and i'm hoping to get things going today, as the rest of my week is completely booked.
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Is the op updated with the current correct items in the kit?
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now it is
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Cool thanks
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Sad to lose the red-on-red keys, but still getting one.
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Yup I gotta pull the trigger on this one. Will be interesting going from full size down to a 40.
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I'll pass as I really don't want or need a 40%.
But you have my support. And if this is successful and you do a bigger (at least TKL) version, I'll probably be supporting that.
smallfry deserves to be remembered.
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Super don't need this. Super in :D
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the problem with TKLs is that they're a little too big for our material size. yield is low, so each keyboard is going to be pretty darn expensive. there's nothing else really stopping a TKL version though.
60% will probably be next.
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i am extremely tired of waiting to be quoted out on the waterjet cut. if i don't get a number by tomorrow i'm going to call it at 130 per kit. i'm 99% sure this will cover costs and make for a sizable donation to the NJW foundation.
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$130 sounds good
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$130 sounds good
Yes, well within the upper bound i had in mind. Awesome.
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$130 sounds good
Yes, well within the upper bound i had in mind. Awesome.
Agreed, considering the 40% removable switch top plate cost 70% of this whole assembly.
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Will be a nice conversation starter. When can we start ordering?
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i am extremely tired of waiting to be quoted out on the waterjet cut. if i don't get a number by tomorrow i'm going to call it at 130 per kit. i'm 99% sure this will cover costs and make for a sizable donation to the NJW foundation.
:thumb:
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Apart from switches, what else do we need? Also does the jd40 support LED?
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i'm going to try to get a number out of my cutter tomorrow. if i can't, i'm going to price the product on geekhackers.org, put it up and you will be able to start ordering by tomorrow EOD. if i do manage to talk to him and it comes up high (worst case), then i might have to do a bit of thinking on how to lower costs. i suspect i will be able to talk to him and he'll give me a quote in the ballpark i've been predicting, in which case, you will be able to start ordering as soon as i price the product, give it a description and some pictures and get it up on geekhackers.org
re: LEDs. no, the current PCB does not support LEDs. that does not rule out the possibility of a board with the same layout and form factor with LEDs in the future, however.
as for parts you will need, expect to buy switches, diodes, potentially a small number of resistors and a mini usb female jack, stabilizers, and keycaps that fit the layout. we will make a bill of materials available that will allow you to purchase almost all of these parts from either newark, digikey or mouser in a few clicks.
note above that i have not priced the stabilizers into the kit. i may be able to sell these separately, but i will have to look into it. in the meantime, they are available from several popular geekhack retailers. for, as far as i know, pretty reasonable prices.
i have also not priced the teensy into the kit. i will be selling the teensy separately, as there are a bunch of teensies running around due to jdcarpe's recent buy, and i don't want to make people buy an extra teensy. i will also provide a small piece of hookup wire with the pcb that can be used to connect the USB data line to the teensy.
i will NOT be providing construction services, only kits. we WILL write up instructions on constructing the keyboard, with pictures, maybe some video, etc.
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i don't really get stabs...
will the spacebar stab i salvaged from a g80-3000 work on this board?
not too sure about pcb mounted vs plate mounted. I would guess that plate mounted requires a plate and pcb mounted requires the cutout in the pcb.
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sounds good. I've got plenty of plate and pcb stabs and a teensy from jd's buy, just need a better soldering setup for the smd work on the usb
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$130 is a very good price, lower than I was expecting :D
I'm a little bit worried about the SMD work etc. as my soldering expertise is minimal. The idea was that by building this board myself I would learn a bit more, but I'm wondering if it might be too big of a jump from switch / led soldering. I suppose I can just ask Margon if I decide it's too much for me :P
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there is no SMD work on this board
edit: actually, the mini USB might need to use SMD pads. not sure about that one.
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^ Nope. Everything is thru hole.
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<dances in celebration>
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ooooohhhh yesssss
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AWESOME! Even more good news! I'm excited!
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Hopefully this can all be assembled by the time I go on a trip in a month :p
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made contact with the WJ. he can't use the two-headed cutter for this job. unsure on costs. he indicated that this would bring up cut costs quite a bit.
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made contact with the WJ. he can't use the two-headed cutter for this job. unsure on costs. he indicated that this would bring up cut costs quite a bit.
Bad news? :( Back to ~$200 price point?
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:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Hm, that's bad but i'll pay almost anything for a 40% :D
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we're unlikely to hit 200. 150 possibly. i'm assuming a Q of 30 units. less than that and not only with the NJW foundation not get a donation, but i will be set to lose a large amount of money as well.
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$150 is still good. I think we can hit that 30 :thumb:
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quote is in. slightly higher than i thought. i think we can safely do 159. can i get some thoughts on this? at this price i'd like to move 40 units
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159 is an ok price, i'll probaly buy one :)
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quote is in. slightly higher than i thought. i think we can safely do 159. can i get some thoughts on this? at this price i'd like to move 40 units
I am in at that price.
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I am in also
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How much extra is shipping going to be?
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Still in.
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Still in. Interested in seeing how the female mini usb will be through hole though.
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still in, lets get this started
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How much extra is shipping going to be?
the total kit will be around 2lbs, so probably 10$.
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I've started a thread for the GB proper: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=59203.new#new