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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: vasconqs on Thu, 22 May 2014, 05:32:11

Title: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: vasconqs on Thu, 22 May 2014, 05:32:11: Keyers are keyboard-like devices (without the board) which enable the user to type with one hand using a chording layout.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Septambic_key_numbering.jpg/220px-Septambic_key_numbering.jpg) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Twiddlerglog.jpg/220px-Twiddlerglog.jpg)
(pictures from wikipedia)
I can see the theoretical advantage of such a device, if properly designed and built.
Stenotype, which you may or may not know, is by far the fastest widespread input method for text. Alas, it uses a phonetic system which is hard to learn and even harder to implement without very expensive special tools. It does however show the potential of chording as a fast input method.
Commercial keyers in existence are going about this by making a lot of keys available to each finger. I think one key/switch per finger is exactly the right amount. Just squeezing given combinations of keys, without having to move the finger forward or sideways, would likely be very fast.
Five switches produce exactly 120 different combinations (5!=120). That's a lot of characters (119, because zero keys is a combination which we must account for). But some people (coders) would probably need more, so I wouldn't mind having an extra switch on the thumb, just for accessing "extra" sets. Mind you, 6!=720.
Perhaps some setting in the OS would determine the time interval to consider a switch to be or not part of a chord (think double click interval in mouse settings). Really fast "keyists" would have this reduced to <10ms.
The layout would have to be figured out to favor the most used characters, but I really think that any combination would be pretty easy to actuate. I hereby offer the suggestion for the 5 keys press (AKA, the RAGE squeeze). It turns the keyer off. And on. Yes, it's wireless. So, there you go internet, you only have to figure out the other 118 (or 718).

I love the idea of sitting in my couch, grabbing a yet-to-be-invented ergonomic keyer in one hand, a single malt on the other, and comfortably type away at breakneck speeds. But for most people the potential would be in wearables. Google glassing it on the train home.
So, what do you guys think?
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 22 May 2014, 07:16:52: Quote from: vasconqs on Thu, 22 May 2014, 05:32:11
... comfortably type away at breakneck speeds. ...

Sorry, not going to happen. It won't be fast and probably not particularly comfortable either. Typing out words using chorded LETTERS will be quite slow, probably slower than an on-screen touch keyboard like Swype or even a "normal" phone keyboard. It will also require a massive amount of learning to master all the combinations and will take time to become proficient. So... That's what I think. A pair of them with 3 switches per finger and 4 per thumb would be faster, though. Can integrate them into a pair of pants, for instance. Could even do it with flexible touch sensitive pads

Also, having 2 thumb buttons will only give you 240 combinations, assuming you can't press them both at the same time.
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: Lanx on Thu, 22 May 2014, 09:47:28: my wife works with some old ass engineers, these are smart ppl that type up pages of reports and create presentations daily, using hunt and peck. they just cannot learn how to type, and probably have given up at the turn of the century!

no way ppl are gonna learn this keyer ****.

also stenographers, i don't get them, i used to have a job that was next to a stenographer school, i was like 20 so i didn't know what the hell a stenograph machine was, i just asked, "why are there all these hot girls lugging around this big ass black thing on a luggage rack?"
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: hoggy on Thu, 22 May 2014, 12:28:39: I've got several keyers, and well, I don't use them. Just don't have the need. Plus I code, so it might be easy to learn the alphabet and the numbers, the punctuation is usually the killer.

I'd agree that with the new interest in wearables there might be some take up - hopefully some innovation to match!
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: vasconqs on Thu, 22 May 2014, 15:59:54: I'm not saying it will happen, but I'm saying it might. I mean, touch typing or stenography are learned as well. And the wearables market might push the envelope further.
Also, "why are there all these hot girls lugging around this big ass (...)"* Because those girls can get to 200~300 wpm on average. Granted, they go do have to go to that special school filled with hot girls, but I guess that's not so bad. Just don't be around when they achieve lifetime awards for professional excellence.
(http://nerdygirlnotes.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/ethel-literally-crying-parks-and-rec2.png)

*misquoting is fun!
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 22 May 2014, 23:18:05: Quote from: Oobly on Thu, 22 May 2014, 07:16:52
Sorry, not going to happen. It won't be fast and probably not particularly comfortable either. Typing out words using chorded LETTERS will be quite slow, probably slower than an on-screen touch keyboard like Swype or even a "normal" phone keyboard. It will also require a massive amount of learning to master all the combinations and will take time to become proficient.
Experienced users of the Twiddler can top out at faster speeds than experienced Swype users, as far as I understand. But you’re right, it takes a lot of practice.

I’m convinced that a one-handed chording keyboard could be developed which was faster and more comfortable than the Twiddler.

But since it’ll inevitably have a steep learning curve, and it’s one more thing to carry around, it’s a pretty tough sell as an actual marketable product.
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: vivalarevolución on Fri, 23 May 2014, 09:36:04: If it has a steep learning curve, do not expect it to go mainstream. You must understand how unwilling human beings are to training their brain to learn new skills. And most people do not type enough for such a contraption to be worth the time it takes to learn it.

Now for specialists, like a stenographer, that seems like a good buy.
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 23 May 2014, 09:57:42: For years, I have been expecting voice recognition to take off for phones and tablets, and touch being relegated to control and correction of the translated text... but no. Disappointing.
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: vivalarevolución on Fri, 23 May 2014, 10:34:43: Quote from: Findecanor on Fri, 23 May 2014, 09:57:42
For years, I have been expecting voice recognition to take off for phones and tablets, and touch being relegated to control and correction of the translated text... but no. Disappointing.

Widespread voice recognition would be a nightmare. Everybody would be talking, but they would not be talking to anybody else. Imagine an office with everyone talking rather than typing. The way people speak and understandable writing are two different things. And writing requires more thought than blurting out words.

On the bright side, perhaps it would encourage people to be more intelligible and considerate with their chosen words.
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: vasconqs on Sat, 24 May 2014, 17:26:34: Most of the points here make a lot of sense.
- Mainstream, probably never, but maybe something might gain some traction with professionals.
- Probably something to be used with both hands makes more sense if we're aiming for speed and accuracy.
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: Proword on Sat, 24 May 2014, 20:45:45: Given that there are so many people already yarping away on their mobile phones these days (via Bluetooth devices), a few more people (probably a very small minority) using speech recognition "on the move" should not constitute any great problem. In a well designed office, speech recog is not a problem either. As a court reporter/Audio transcription WPO, I've been using Dragon Naturallyspeaking and its predecessors for 12-14 years now, and have no difficulty achieving 99+% accuracy at the normal speed of speech ie 150-200 wpm. The limiting factor is the quality of the speaker/recording I'm transcribing. With a clear speaker and a good recording (say a counsel making their final submission or a judge handing down their reasons) then it is possible to speed up the playback by 5-6%, using a technique called "shadow speaking" ie listening to the recording and repeating what they say about a half second or so afterwards.

Given that speech recognition requires little if any practice to start, but strict adherence to a couple of basic rules, I can't see any reason for keyers to become "mainstream". With a highly directional microphone and noise cancelling ear buds it should be possible to accurately dictate in a public place without disturbing anybody.

There is a device called a "steno mask"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenomask
designed for speech transcription without disturbing others, but it's fairly unhandy and wouldn't be useful except in limited circumstances.

As for the stenographers lugging their machines around, as mentioned previously, this requires much time and money to achieve the necessary skills (several years and many thousands of dollars.) I've examined several teaching websites and all of those that I looked at required the steno to achieve 97% accuracy before graduating. In the days before I went freelance as a reporter, I was employed by a couple of suppliers of reporting services for the state and commonwealth courts, and assisted in submitting tenders for contracts. Each time the tender was quite specific that there were to be no more than 2 errors per page of transcript, each page was roughly 350 words, so an error rate of about 99.9995% accuracy.
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: JulianFR on Sun, 25 May 2014, 10:33:25: If my job was about keyboard and everything related, I would try to find another way to type. By this I don't mean another shape of keyboard, but another method to transmit information from my brain, to my display.
But in fact, I guess it will remain forever about switch and caps... :(
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 25 May 2014, 12:00:33: Hmmmmm...

I think it may.... because you can only go so far with ergnomic keyboards, before placement becomes less than practical..

With wearable, you could just type on your stomach or wherever, assuming it can differentiate the angle the finger is making.
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: Naed on Fri, 06 June 2014, 23:52:41: Quote from: tp4tissue on Sun, 25 May 2014, 12:00:33
Hmmmmm...

I think it may.... because you can only go so far with ergnomic keyboards, before placement becomes less than practical..

With wearable, you could just type on your stomach or wherever, assuming it can differentiate the angle the finger is making.

Hmm, seems like you are thinking about flexable/prediction-of-fingerplacement/Projected-keyboards then, which is an area that I'm very interested in from a "what will happen" pov.

with that in mind, has anyone followed the (possible) advances in projected-keyboard tech in the last 10-ish years?
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 07 June 2014, 07:20:17: Quote from: Naed on Fri, 06 June 2014, 23:52:41
Quote from: tp4tissue on Sun, 25 May 2014, 12:00:33
Hmmmmm...

I think it may.... because you can only go so far with ergnomic keyboards, before placement becomes less than practical..

With wearable, you could just type on your stomach or wherever, assuming it can differentiate the angle the finger is making.

Hmm, seems like you are thinking about flexable/prediction-of-fingerplacement/Projected-keyboards then, which is an area that I'm very interested in from a "what will happen" pov.

with that in mind, has anyone followed the (possible) advances in projected-keyboard tech in the last 10-ish years?

I doubt keyboard tech will advance much further as a physical item

it already greatly exceeds what one person can do with it.

implants at nerve endings is what I'm hoping for..

I am really disappointed that that infrared camera brick thing didn't pick up..

That seems like all you'd need to make a live touch panel over glass which can substitute a physical keyboard.
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 07 June 2014, 12:54:21: http://airtype.io
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: ideus on Sat, 07 June 2014, 13:43:36: We human beings are naturally inclined to take the easiest route to accomplish our goals. That is efficiency, we are wired to use the way with the lowest effort to do things. Very few are in the other side of the spectrum, the individuals that live near the boundaries, outsiders that prefer to do things out of the status quo. Some of them will be pioneers and visionaries, others are just long rangers, and some are even dangerous.

Electrical current shows us a demonstration of efficiency in action by flowing throw the circuits with the lowest resistance when alternatives are available.

If there is a simpler more familiar way to do things the inventions will have a hard time to get their way into mainstream markets unless the value against the steep learning curve is clearly positive.
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 07 June 2014, 14:32:08: Quote from: ideus on Sat, 07 June 2014, 13:43:36
We human beings are naturally inclined to take the easiest route to accomplish our goals. That is efficiency, we are wired to use the way with the lowest effort to do things. Very few are in the other side of the spectrum, the individuals that live near the boundaries, outsiders that prefer to do things out of the status quo. Some of them will be pioneers and visionaries, others are just long rangers, and some are even dangerous.

Electrical current shows us a demonstration of efficiency in action by flowing throw the circuits with the lowest resistance when alternatives are available.

If there is a simpler more familiar way to do things the inventions will have a hard time to get their way into mainstream markets unless the value against the steep learning curve is clearly positive.

machines have evolved quicker than our own biology can keep up with..

we must assimilate the machines...(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/robot-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862517)
Title: Re: Keyers - Will wearables make them mainstream?
Post by: ideus on Sun, 08 June 2014, 15:41:50: Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 07 June 2014, 14:32:08
Quote from: ideus on Sat, 07 June 2014, 13:43:36
We human beings are naturally inclined to take the easiest route to accomplish our goals. That is efficiency, we are wired to use the way with the lowest effort to do things. Very few are in the other side of the spectrum, the individuals that live near the boundaries, outsiders that prefer to do things out of the status quo. Some of them will be pioneers and visionaries, others are just long rangers, and some are even dangerous.

Electrical current shows us a demonstration of efficiency in action by flowing throw the circuits with the lowest resistance when alternatives are available.

If there is a simpler more familiar way to do things the inventions will have a hard time to get their way into mainstream markets unless the value against the steep learning curve is clearly positive.

machines have evolved quicker than our own biology can keep up with..

we must assimilate the machines...
Show Image
(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/robot-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862517)

tp4-TECH, and loving your emoticons.