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geekhack Community => Input Devices => Topic started by: chimera15 on Thu, 30 April 2009, 08:17:47

Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 30 April 2009, 08:17:47
Somewhat hesitant about posting this as it's not finished and looks like junk.  But I thought it might give others ideas here.   I worked on this for about a week and created pretty much the only one of it's kind trackball.  Functionally it's the best trackball I've ever used.  It mimics key placement of the tbe, but adds the ability to use the custom macro's and variable dpi that the sidewinder has.  This took me a ton of soldering and rewiring/sculpting.

As far as i know it's the only true gaming trackball in existence. ;)  I've been using it to pwn in warrock for about a half a year now.  Noone can outfly me with this. lol
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 30 April 2009, 08:21:55
It may not look like much, but if it works, that's great.  I would probably like to try a more "production" model with the same functionality.  D*mn, maybe you an lowpoly need to hook up.  One for creating enthusiast keyboards and the other for mice. :)
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 30 April 2009, 08:24:55
Yeah, I need to spend another few days getting it to look better.  ;)  There was a minimum I could do with how the parts of the cut apart sidewinder would come back together and make room and fit my hand, so it looks kind of fugly, but it really feels and works great.
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: huha on Thu, 30 April 2009, 08:29:54
How did you solve the problem of inverting axes?

-huha
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 30 April 2009, 12:18:59
lol

The inverted axis is solved by a program called Sakasa.  Pretty great little free program ;)  Also since I mainly use this computer/ trackball for games, the inversion is actually a plus under most circumstances.
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: huha on Thu, 30 April 2009, 14:29:38
Excuse me for asking, but judging from the pictures, it looked like a somewhat elaborate attempt at trolling.

-huha
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: o2dazone on Thu, 30 April 2009, 14:30:38
damn that mouse is haggard...
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 30 April 2009, 23:08:42
Quote from: huha;88352
Excuse me for asking, but judging from the pictures, it looked like a somewhat elaborate attempt at trolling.

-huha


trolling?
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 30 April 2009, 23:11:55
Quote from: o2dazone;88353
damn that mouse is haggard...


It looks worse than it really is.  The function is perfect..and it's not complete as I stated.  Probably another round of epoxy putty will make it completely smooth, and get a better shape to it.  Unfortunately I don't really have the time to do it right now, but wanted to show it with this round of photos I took.
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: o2dazone on Thu, 30 April 2009, 23:12:23
this guy is a pro, feigning ignorance about what trolling is

jp you might not really know. Trolling is purposely antagonizing people on the internet. For example if you knew what trolling what, and you just asked "What is troll", then I just got trolled. F...internet 101 in here


edit: I actually think its amazing (the mouse). looks like an ergo nightmare, but if it works, and doesn't kill the muscles in your hand, then I'd use it lol
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 30 April 2009, 23:17:37
This is an earlier version of it.  So you can see relatively I made a lot of progress with the look. lol  You can also get a better idea of what the contruction took from these photos.

(http://www.chimera-art.com/trackball/P0000021.jpg)
(http://www.chimera-art.com/trackball/P0000022.jpg)
(http://www.chimera-art.com/trackball/P0000023.jpg)
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 30 April 2009, 23:20:44
Quote from: o2dazone;88422
this guy is a pro, feigning ignorance about what trolling is

jp you might not really know. Trolling is purposely antagonizing people on the internet. For example if you knew what trolling what, and you just asked "What is troll", then I just got trolled. F...internet 101 in here


edit: I actually think its amazing (the mouse). looks like an ergo nightmare, but if it works, and doesn't kill the muscles in your hand, then I'd use it lol


I thought I understood what trolling was..but why would I troll myself? lol I don't understand how trolling applies to me posting my hard work and idea for a gaming trackball.  Or why that would be considered antagonizing people?
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: FKSSR on Fri, 01 May 2009, 08:33:03
I feel like that mouse would try to assimilate me. ;)
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: huha on Fri, 01 May 2009, 09:10:55
Quote from: chimera15;88426
I thought I understood what trolling was..but why would I troll myself? lol I don't understand how trolling applies to me posting my hard work and idea for a gaming trackball.  Or why that would be considered antagonizing people?


Judging from the looks of the first photo you posted, it looks like a Sidewinder mouse very sloppily covered in lots and lots of putty with a ball attached for laughs. It looks vaguely possible, but on the other hand, it's so extremely over-the-top you just have to wonder what you were up to.

The construction photos make much more sense, although it still looks like a mouse covered in putty. ;)
What do you use to support the ball? Any ball bearings in there or will it glide just fine like that? Can you post pictures of this particular detail? When construction a trackball, I think this should be the most complicated part.

-huha
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 01 May 2009, 09:19:56
I bet that a bit more putty and some handy work using a Dremel tool with a sanding bit will make it look a lot more professional.
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: FKSSR on Fri, 01 May 2009, 10:39:22
that keyboard is gross.
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Sat, 02 May 2009, 00:32:45
Quote from: huha;88459
Judging from the looks of the first photo you posted, it looks like a Sidewinder mouse very sloppily covered in lots and lots of putty with a ball attached for laughs. It looks vaguely possible, but on the other hand, it's so extremely over-the-top you just have to wonder what you were up to.

The construction photos make much more sense, although it still looks like a mouse covered in putty. ;)
What do you use to support the ball? Any ball bearings in there or will it glide just fine like that? Can you post pictures of this particular detail? When construction a trackball, I think this should be the most complicated part.

-huha



I originally used ball bearings I took out of a model rc car ball bearing.  I use these to replace trackball explorer points as well and they work very well.  They're basically the same as tbe standard points.  However since I used a logitech trackball they seemed to leave very lite small trace scratches in the ball.  I took apart a cheap $20 logitech trackball and took the red composite bearings that they use in their balls out and am using those now.  The ball rolls very smoothly, and it's extremely precise.

 I might take pictures of it again and will include the ball structure if I get some time to work on it again.  Since it's so odd looking I thought of making it look like a curled up dragon or something and make it more of a piece of functional art eventually.  But it will take at least another week of work to get it to that point which I don't have time for right now.
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Sat, 02 May 2009, 00:38:05
Quote from: ripster;88467
Hey Chimera, just ignore us, and go for it.   I'm getting a trackball with extra switch ports and may try some custom buttons so the button mod details are interesting to me.

Who cares what these mods looks like anyway. (click for details)

Show Image
(http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/FP3/LW5G/F1SWPKAD/FP3LW5GF1SWPKAD.MEDIUM.jpg) (http://www.instructables.com/id/Green-Keyboard/)


- Ripster


lol I  have that keyboard.  That's the best use for it. roflol
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Sat, 02 May 2009, 00:49:18
Quote from: o2dazone;88422
this guy is a pro, feigning ignorance about what trolling is

jp you might not really know. Trolling is purposely antagonizing people on the internet. For example if you knew what trolling what, and you just asked "What is troll", then I just got trolled. F...internet 101 in here


edit: I actually think its amazing (the mouse). looks like an ergo nightmare, but if it works, and doesn't kill the muscles in your hand, then I'd use it lol


It's actually extremely ergo.  It fits my hand perfectly.  I made it so that you would still have control over the ball while pressing both the main and secondary key which you don't really even have in a TBE.  This was a major problem with using a trackball to fly planes in War Rock.  You couldn't turn very well while firing.  This trackball solves this problem.

The only part I wasn't really able to get the way I wanted is that the resolution controls are now under your hand, so you can't switch on the fly, you have to take your hand off momentarily, which isn't a huge problem.  I usually switch depending on the vehicle while it's spooling up, like if I get in a chopper, while the blades are spinning up I'll switch it to a higher resolution, and likewise in a plane, while the engine is getting the plane moving I'll switch to a lower.
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: wheel83 on Sun, 03 May 2009, 00:29:26
i give you props on the ingenuity, but that thing looks ugly as sin.
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 06 May 2009, 04:05:15
Quote from: wheel83;88779
i give you props on the ingenuity, but that thing looks ugly as sin.

If you or anyone can make a better looking one that's just as functional, and ergonomic I'll and probably a lot of other people will buy it from you. lol  Like I said, I was hesitant about posting it, but just knowing it's possible and the functional features might inspire some people I hope, and maybe some real companies to make one.  I don't have time to work on it anymore.  I might actually try to do a new one out of a razer or something and have it look a lot better.  I'd want to get a better trackball from like a tbe or something for it though.

I don't think it's worth investing more time into this one since it's perfectly functional and does what I need.  There's too many limitations brought about by the parts and where they had to go when they reassembled.  I probably have about $100 in epoxy putty and parts dumped into this one, not to mention at least a month of work and research.  There were 2 failed model experiments I made before this one, that I tried with cheaper mice, where I tried to reverse just the optical sensor because the board didn't lend itself to being flipped over like the sidewinder did, although that took a lot of desoldering and resoldering as well.  I had to completely flip 2 boards and where they were soldered to the main board, so I'd pay at least $100 for a professionally made one. lol
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: huha on Wed, 06 May 2009, 06:01:48
Have you tried making a mould and then vacuum forming a plastic case over it? Seems like a better idea to me than just slapping down epoxy.

-huha
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 06 May 2009, 09:56:08
Quote from: huha;89421
Have you tried making a mould and then vacuum forming a plastic case over it? Seems like a better idea to me than just slapping down epoxy.

-huha

You still need to make the original form out of something, and that'd be epoxy putty, or sculpting wax, or some sort of moldable form, or having it professionally done from a lathe and 3d design and such.  That would take about 1000 times more work not to mention $ to actually make a new case and proper plastic pieces to make a new case for the electronics.  Unless I would have some source for the raw electronics and was producing a trackball myself like this that's a lot of time I can't spend on this.  I'm actually a sculptor, or was, and it's within my capability to do, but not the electronics, so there's no point.
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 06 May 2009, 11:57:41
This is a quick sketch I did of a more complete original gaming trackball based on my design.  If anyone wants to take it and get it made somewhere, be my guest. lol
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Mon, 11 May 2009, 14:52:02
Quote from: ripster;89488
So I'm dinking around with a trackball (see CST Laser thread) and just ordered some microswitches.  It looks like you cannibalized your switches from a gaming mouse?  Or did you find some off the shelf?

- Ripster


I used a Microsoft sidewinder, and all the switches that are inherent to it.  I didn't add any switches.  I just desoldered several circuit boards, added wires so you could place them in a comfortable position, and flip them around, then rebuilt everything back using epoxy putty over the existing switches.
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 13 May 2009, 15:32:41
Quote from: chimera15;89412
I don't think it's worth investing more time into this one since it's perfectly functional and does what I need.


Quite right! It's a gaming controller, not an expensive designer item for impressing corporate clients! Who cares if it looks like it lost a fight with a blowtorch?

Besides, didn't a certain manufacturer make several mice with a faux-distressed look for gamers? You have the real thing!
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Wed, 13 May 2009, 20:04:55
damn, that is crazy. But if it works, what the heck lol
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 14 May 2009, 15:37:56
Quote from: ripster;89488
So I'm dinking around with a trackball (see CST Laser thread) and just ordered some microswitches.  It looks like you cannibalized your switches from a gaming mouse?  Or did you find some off the shelf?

- Ripster

Quote from: ripster;90714
Yeah, it's crazy but I'm kinda stealing Chimeras idea to try an extra switch on a trackball.   I'm gonna get some Silly Putty and embed the switch in it, sticking it on different parts of the trackball until I figure out where to mount it.

Even if you add extra buttons will a driver recognize them?  That's the problem I had and why I had to use a good existing gaming mouse with lots of buttons that had the capability to switch button function in the driver around and junk.
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Fri, 15 May 2009, 09:22:00
Quote from: ripster;90900
The CST comes with software allowing me to add two extra buttons to the three existing ones.  The software then allows me to map almost any key or macro to the 5 keys.  

Pretty flexible.  Gotta go get it wired up.

- Ripster

Ah really? That's interesting..what version? The 2545?  I don't really like that design like the kensington's, cause it doesn't have 2 buttons on the same side, and not too ergo, but maybe you could mod it like that... Hmm...  That's really interesting.
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Fri, 15 May 2009, 09:48:21
Maybe you could use alps switches for the keys? lol  That might be an interesting mod, although I'm not sure that amount of travel on a mouse would be cool or not.  An alps button switch trackball? roflol  

Actually I think alps or someone else is selling alps short travel switches on ebay.  They might be better suited, but you need to come up with covers for them then.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-of-10-TACTILE-ALPS-TACT-Switches-Part-SKQNACD010_W0QQitemZ180336727392QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Connectors_Switches_Wire?hash=item29fce81560&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Qty-30-Tack-Switches-ALPS-SKQNARD010-PushBut-little_W0QQitemZ260356621720QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Connectors_Switches_Wire?hash=item3c9e76c598&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: wheel83 on Fri, 15 May 2009, 14:12:52
you should try sanwa buttons.  they are incredible.  also check out a chtulu board for usb support.
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: o2dazone on Fri, 15 May 2009, 15:55:22
lol so asian...
I'm assuming those buttons are for arcade sticks?
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: wheel83 on Fri, 15 May 2009, 16:23:31
indeed sanwa arcade buttons are the main ones used in japan by arcades and professionals alike.  they are the most sensitive and most durable buttons for arcade games. the amount of force needed to activate them is insanely low.
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: CreamyNutButter on Tue, 21 July 2009, 01:10:45
Quote from: o2dazone;88422
this guy is a pro, feigning ignorance about what trolling is

jp you might not really know. Trolling is purposely antagonizing people on the internet. For example if you knew what trolling what, and you just asked "What is troll", then I just got trolled. F...internet 101 in here


edit: I actually think its amazing (the mouse). looks like an ergo nightmare, but if it works, and doesn't kill the muscles in your hand, then I'd use it lol


(http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/3/36/Trollingbackinthedays.jpg/180px-Trollingbackinthedays.jpg)
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: o2dazone on Tue, 21 July 2009, 08:15:32
sweet bump
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 23 September 2009, 21:21:26
I'm looking for a new gaming mouse to do a new conversion on, and hopefully not make it look so ugly ass.

This time I'm going to use a tbe ball like I should have in the first place.

It needs to have on the fly over 2000dpi switching, , preferably some kind of macro capability, and other neato features, and needs to be reasonably priced.  It needs to be at least 5 buttons.  Any suggestions?
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Mon, 19 October 2009, 08:38:29
For those interested I finally decided on using a razer lachesis.  4000 dpi, onboard memory, should be super awesome cool if I can rearrange it to a trackball.

I may also end up using a kensington turboball instead of a tbe ball since they're even larger and should give even greater control.   I think this will be the first 4k dpi trackball ;)  hehehehe
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 22 October 2009, 15:06:16
I got the lachesis today.  I did some basic testing with the turboball ball, and it worked, so I'll be able to use that instead of the tbe ball.  It should look cooler cause it's blue too which is the theme of the lachesis.  I opened it up, and it looks like it'll be a bit more difficult to rearrange everything.  I'm worried about the side buttons as well cause they're intregal to the unit.  The main keys are soldered to the board so they'll need unsoldering and then to be flipped, which I had to do wit the original too.   Going to be a real pain, but should be wicked awesome.
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: ironcoder on Fri, 23 October 2009, 02:52:50
Quote from: chimera15;127668
I got the lachesis today.


"See a doctor and get it taken care of."
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Fri, 23 October 2009, 04:18:20
Quote from: ironcoder;127756
"See a doctor and get it taken care of."

Lachesis is from greek mythology, she's one of the three fates that cut threads of life. lol  kinda like my name ;)
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: ironcoder on Fri, 23 October 2009, 07:51:40
Cool man, as long as you're ok, that's all that matters ;)
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 23 October 2009, 08:16:06
Quote from: ironcoder;127786
Cool man, as long as you're ok, that's all that matters ;)

Strong.  I like your style.  The snark is strong in you.
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Sat, 24 October 2009, 04:14:24
Lachesis hack :

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=127988#post127988

;)
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 30 October 2009, 07:15:39
That trackball doesn't strike me as ergonomic.
Title: Sidwinder gaming trackball hack
Post by: chimera15 on Sat, 31 October 2009, 05:15:41
Quote from: microsoft windows;129339
That trackball doesn't strike me as ergonomic.

It's really very comfortable.  I've used it for days with no cramping or discomfort.  A trackball's ergonomics is mainly based around where the thumb positioning is relative to the ball more than anything.  The key thing is that it allows the hand to approximate a resting position.    That's one of the problems with the pcally or mcally trackball.  The buttons were too close to the ball, and so give you cramps because you constantly have to strain muscles to press the button.

I found out recently that since I have double jointed fingers, or hyper-mobility, my hands are more liable to be effected by bad ergonomics and get tired more easily than normal fingers.  If I don't have it a problem with it, it's likely that no one else would.