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geekhack Community => Input Devices => Topic started by: wheel83 on Sat, 02 May 2009, 18:21:37

Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: wheel83 on Sat, 02 May 2009, 18:21:37: I just bought an unused one on ebay for 55 bux. good deal i know.

anyways the past week i have been using a logitech marble man (the thumb one). i like it a lot. i tried a kensington expert, but it was unusable for me personally.

anyways i was wondering about peoples experience with the microsoft. like how long should it last? and anything else.

also is the ball the same size as a logitech? 35mm

thanks

will
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: o2dazone on Sat, 02 May 2009, 22:02:14: Which one?

(http://www.computerverein-rostock.de/userpix/4_mstrackballoptical_1.jpg)

?
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: zwmalone on Sat, 02 May 2009, 22:27:05: Quote from: o2dazone;88749

Show Image
(http://www.computerverein-rostock.de/userpix/4_mstrackballoptical_1.jpg)

World's most amazing input device ever created. period.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: wheel83 on Sat, 02 May 2009, 22:28:34: yep thats the biotch lol

i hope it lives up to my expectations.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 02 May 2009, 22:32:33: that mouse looks funky to me; which means its probably comfortable and works really well : )
The funky/odd looking mice usually work the best for me.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: wheel83 on Sat, 02 May 2009, 22:48:33: i had a dream where that trackball magically had an optical sensor so it worked as a "standard" mouse. dual input for maximum accuracy and rsi protection lol. anyone think they could hack that up?
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: chimera15 on Sun, 03 May 2009, 00:18:16: TBO's are nice, I have 3 of them, but they don't beat TBE's cause they're thumb trackballs. Thumb trackballs have limited accuracy and don't work too well in games.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: chimera15 on Sun, 03 May 2009, 00:21:53: Quote from: wheel83;88763
i had a dream where that trackball magically had an optical sensor so it worked as a "standard" mouse. dual input for maximum accuracy and rsi protection lol. anyone think they could hack that up?

You saw my sidewinder hack right? What do you mean by dual input?
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: chimera15 on Sun, 03 May 2009, 00:25:36: Quote from: wheel83;88737
I just bought an unused one on ebay for 55 bux. good deal i know.

anyways the past week i have been using a logitech marble man (the thumb one). i like it a lot. i tried a kensington expert, but it was unusable for me personally.

anyways i was wondering about peoples experience with the microsoft. like how long should it last? and anything else.

also is the ball the same size as a logitech? 35mm

thanks

will

TBO's last about as long as TBE's. If you know how to replace the metal bearings, they can last indefinitely assuming you don't abuse them. I've been using one of my TBO's off and on with other tbo's and tbe's for around 10 years now.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: o2dazone on Sun, 03 May 2009, 03:06:30: Quote from: chimera15;88776
TBO's are nice, I have 3 of them, but they don't beat TBE's cause they're thumb trackballs. Thumb trackballs have limited accuracy and don't work too well in games.

Is this just an opinion or is there some technical proof as to why they're not as accurate? (not discrediting what you're saying, I'm actually interested in hearing it)

I have two that I've been using close to 6-7 years. Haven't had issues with either of them, and they get used EXTENSIVELY. Used them in gaming, modeling, video editing, they're great, easy to clean, and the laminate on the ball is resilient enough that I haven't had it chip or scratch or anything. I intend to keep using until they break, then I might have to start searching around.

$55 new is a STEAL. That's about the price they went for when they were on shelves, and I've generally seen them go for $75-$100 nib, so you got a great price on that.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: wheel83 on Sun, 03 May 2009, 03:41:56: ya at first i was gonna buy a nib for around that price. but i found a buy it now from a seller who swore the item was unused, altho the box was open. i will receive it next week hopefully and report back.

im glad to see it has been working well for you guys. my intellimouses have broken under a year of medium-heavy usage.

also by dual input i meant thumb input as well as a standard optical on the bottom so you can move the "mouse" around. basically its a normal mouse and a trackball combined, with 2 separate opticals.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: Z Redux on Sun, 03 May 2009, 07:46:11: Quote from: chimera15;88778
TBO's last about as long as TBE's. If you know how to replace the metal bearings, they can last indefinitely...

Any tips on, or links to, swapping the bearings? I've searched around a bit without finding anything too helpful in terms of the actual procedure or where to obtain suitable replacements. A hard composite bearing instead of metal would be ideal.

I've been using thumb trackballs for over 10 years and really love them. The Trackball Optical is especially nice since it's one of only two thumb trackballs I've found with 5 buttons. The other being here (http://www.trackballworld.com/40-190.html), though I've never used this type. In my opinion, the button layout looks a bit awkward.

It'll be a sad day when my TBOs are finally beyond repair... Maybe by then someone will be selling gaming/high button thumb trackballs (I'm looking at you, Logitech! The TrackMan Wheel is ripe for this addition. 6+ configurable buttons - including one for the pinky, ergonomic design, optical, tiltable scroll whell, wired or wireless, black & red color scheme...).

-Z

Edit: Chimera15, I saw the blog link you posted in the TBE thread a few days ago. The info posted there involves damaging the bearing socket, something I hope to avoid.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 03 May 2009, 15:32:55: Quote from: o2dazone;88783
Is this just an opinion or is there some technical proof as to why they're not as accurate? (not discrediting what you're saying, I'm actually interested in hearing it)

The index finger is a finely tuned tool evolved for intricate manipulation of objects, whereas the thumb is a crude, muscular extension that enabled us to hold on to branches and avoid falling out of trees back when we were monkeys. :thumb:
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: keyb_gr on Sun, 03 May 2009, 16:16:32: Quote from: Rajagra;88868
The index finger is a finely tuned tool evolved for intricate manipulation of objects, whereas the thumb is a crude, muscular extension that enabled us to hold on to branches and avoid falling out of trees back when we were monkeys. :thumb:

On the other hand (pun not intended), the thumb is well-suited for repeated movements, thus why mouse designers almost never put the scroll wheel there is beyond me.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: wheel83 on Wed, 06 May 2009, 22:24:20: i finally got this mouse. beein using it for an hour an love it so far!
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: wheel83 on Wed, 13 May 2009, 22:11:08: Hey does anyone know what type of lubricant I should use on the rollers? Some days, the ball action is just terrible.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: o2dazone on Wed, 13 May 2009, 22:24:18: KY Jelly, or if that's not readily available, some Vaseline or baby oil
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: o2dazone on Wed, 13 May 2009, 22:25:10: oh you mean for the trackball, this might sound a little gross, but it works and I've been doing it for years - I just roll the ball in the corner of my face between my cheek and my nose. A little natural skin oil never hurt anything (well...at least not in the 6 years I've been doing it)
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: wheel83 on Wed, 13 May 2009, 22:31:34: lol i used to have oily skin, and now i have not oily skin, and this does not work for me lol ... i think im gonna have to get some caig lube for this. nasa uses it so my balls should be good now lol
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Thu, 14 May 2009, 01:14:53: razer ftw!
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: o2dazone on Thu, 14 May 2009, 08:38:35: Quote from: ripster;90747
LOL/LOL/LOL! I hope you don't do that in public??

I do actually lol, and yeah..a wave of shame washes over me. That's ok, when everyone's wrists are swelled up to the size of softballs when they're 50, I'll be the one laughing :) ... :(

What's your consensus after using for a while, Wheels?
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: wheel83 on Thu, 14 May 2009, 08:44:21: i like everything about it, except the rollers on mine are not smooth. my new logitech has way better action. i think i just need to put some silicon or caig on it to loosen it up since it has never been used.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 14 May 2009, 15:32:43: I use my forhead. lol
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: chimera15 on Thu, 14 May 2009, 16:25:09: Quote from: Z Redux;88799
Any tips on, or links to, swapping the bearings? I've searched around a bit without finding anything too helpful in terms of the actual procedure or where to obtain suitable replacements. A hard composite bearing instead of metal would be ideal.

I've been using thumb trackballs for over 10 years and really love them. The Trackball Optical is especially nice since it's one of only two thumb trackballs I've found with 5 buttons. The other being here (http://www.trackballworld.com/40-190.html), though I've never used this type. In my opinion, the button layout looks a bit awkward.

It'll be a sad day when my TBOs are finally beyond repair... Maybe by then someone will be selling gaming/high button thumb trackballs (I'm looking at you, Logitech! The TrackMan Wheel is ripe for this addition. 6+ configurable buttons - including one for the pinky, ergonomic design, optical, tiltable scroll whell, wired or wireless, black & red color scheme...).

-Z

Edit: Chimera15, I saw the blog link you posted in the TBE thread a few days ago. The info posted there involves damaging the bearing socket, something I hope to avoid.

There are two ways to get the bearing out. I use a sharpened tiny screwdriver and just pry the bearing out. You find the smallest screwdriver kit at like radioshack or sears and sharpen it down to a fine point, so it's like a little micro chisel. It's very effective and if done right you only gouge about 1/5th of the bearing housing so the bearing still pops in and out nicely and properly. If it damages it too much which it rarely does you can always super glue it back. That's the fastest method and allows you to turn the bearing every week or two with minimal problems.

The other way is to disassemble the whole thing and drill in the back of the housing and pop the bearing out from behind using a paperclip or the drill itself.

To replace a bearing you need to find a model rc car bearing that fits. It can take some trial and error. Visit a hobby shop that has a lot of rc cars an planes, and they should have tiny bearings. Buy a selection, they don't cost much and find the right size. Pop it open and there should be like 6 or more little balls in them that should last you for more years on end. You should only have to replace a bearing after years of use though because turning works fine until all that's left are flat parts on the bearing.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: wheel83 on Fri, 15 May 2009, 17:17:56: thanks for the tips. i will try isopropanol. i put a lil bit of caig lube on em. it seems to be working much better.

i got this off ebay for 50 bucks and it said it was unused, but no box. upon getting it, it did indeed seem unused. but the rollers seem a lil wonky.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: Z Redux on Mon, 25 May 2009, 00:22:17: Thanks for the tips and information, they should prove quite helpful. One of my TBOs has a flat ball/contact point that really hinders vertical movement. As much as I want to get it working smoothly again, I'm always a bit nervous blindly disassembling and attempting repair of hard to find equipment. Fear of failure and such... :)

After reading your post I did a bit of additional digging and preparatory research. I found a two part video and website with more information on repair. They're in Japanese so the language barrier is a bit of a challenge for those of us not fluent. Still, the images and a quick run through BabelFish prove informative. It covers both the Microsoft Trackball Optical and Microsoft Trackball Explorer. Here are the links should anyone be interested.

Microsoft Trackball Explorer Repair Video - Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWuBHRRUJ5I)
Microsoft Trackball Explorer Repair Video - Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK-x0ZKVYs4)
Trackball Optical Repair - Website (http://homepage2.nifty.com/__I%7E%7EIO/index.htm) (Translation) (http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fhomepage2.nifty.com%2F__I%7E%7EIO%2Findex.htm&lp=ja_en&btnTrUrl=Translate)

-Z
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: chimera15 on Sun, 31 May 2009, 15:51:53: Quote from: Z Redux;92538
Thanks for the tips and information, they should prove quite helpful. One of my TBOs has a flat ball/contact point that really hinders vertical movement. As much as I want to get it working smoothly again, I'm always a bit nervous blindly disassembling and attempting repair of hard to find equipment. Fear of failure and such... :)

After reading your post I did a bit of additional digging and preparatory research. I found a two part video and website with more information on repair. They're in Japanese so the language barrier is a bit of a challenge for those of us not fluent. Still, the images and a quick run through BabelFish prove informative. It covers both the Microsoft Trackball Optical and Microsoft Trackball Explorer. Here are the links should anyone be interested.

Microsoft Trackball Explorer Repair Video - Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWuBHRRUJ5I)
Microsoft Trackball Explorer Repair Video - Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK-x0ZKVYs4)
Trackball Optical Repair - Website (http://homepage2.nifty.com/__I%7E%7EIO/index.htm) (Translation) (http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fhomepage2.nifty.com%2F__I%7E%7EIO%2Findex.htm&lp=ja_en&btnTrUrl=Translate)

-Z

That way is so risky to the electronics, it may look nicer, but you're still damaging the plastic, and risking cracking. The problem doesn't come from pulling it apart so much as putting it back together, because the pins for the connectors aren't soldered very robustly and can easily be damaged when putting the trackball back together. I way prefer my method of coming in from the front and gouging out little grooves, and prying the balls out without having to crack the case. You can turn them on an instant if they start feeling rough if you go in through the front, and don't risk the electronics for a few bearings.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: DrunkenDonut on Tue, 02 June 2009, 10:19:20: For general lubrication purposes, I like NyoGel 760G .. If you want something to control friction (i.e. lubricated but not super slick) then the thicker 779ZC is good. I use them for flashlight threads. Great stuff. Doesn't interfere with conductive parts either, which is nice.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: bigpook on Tue, 02 June 2009, 10:23:55: Quote from: wheel83;90738
Hey does anyone know what type of lubricant I should use on the rollers? Some days, the ball action is just terrible.

The mouse is opto-mechanical?

If so I have used silcone grease, sparingly on the little rubber rollers. I just did this on kensington turboring trackball I just got. It was used but in very good shape. Initially the tracking was awful so I cleaned the wheels with some alchohol. That made it worse. So I used some silicone grease and so far its working really well.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: o2dazone on Tue, 02 June 2009, 10:25:47: What is the brand name of the silicon grease you're using? I was trying to find a thick grease I could use to dampen some loose plastic pieces, but all I could find was white lithium grease (petroleum distillate)
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: bigpook on Tue, 02 June 2009, 10:27:36: This is what I used:

amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Silicon-Diff-Grease-1-4oz/dp/B0006O71VQ/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1243956401&sr=8-5)
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: o2dazone on Tue, 02 June 2009, 11:11:01: Quote from: ripster;93905
I'm just glad I don't have to stick the ball to my forehead.

screw you buddy

[strike]What is nyogel comprise of? Of course it'd be wise to avoid petroleum based lubricants. Also is the viscosity of a gel? I have a few dry lubes, they just spray and evaporate[/strike]

edit: I should read descriptions
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 02 June 2009, 14:33:05: Quote from: ripster;93938
OK, OK, I'll try your technique.I must be doing something wrong. It's not working.

I do hear the ocean though.

Did Geek Girl take that picture for you? That looks like a very hard reach-around angle for a self pic.

Of course, there is the tripod/timer setup.

I just wanted to use "reach-around" in a sentence.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: onowak on Sat, 04 July 2009, 11:30:13: ive had my ms trackball since 2000. its been dropped countless times on hardwood floors and still works. very well made. very comfortable.

great for fps games if you are into that (not so much for me these days - but flicking yer thumb is much more efficient than flicking yer entire wrist...)

too they dont make them anymore... :(
-0.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 19 October 2009, 14:42:32: How do these stack up against the Logitech thumb trackballs? I assume that the MS ones are better, just interested to know how much better, and why...
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: williamjoseph on Mon, 19 October 2009, 15:32:19: Quote from: ripster;93944
Just stuck it on a book. Luck.

I need a haircut.

not to mention trimming that hair out of those ears.......
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: o2dazone on Mon, 19 October 2009, 19:19:51: Quote from: ch_123;126980
How do these stack up against the Logitech thumb trackballs? I assume that the MS ones are better, just interested to know how much better, and why...

The Trackman Wheels are a 3 button mouse, while the MTO's are 5. The ball is also a bit bigger than the Trackman Wheels. I prefer the MTO, but the Trackman Wheel is a nice alternative. Some people on here prefer the TMW over the MTO, so I guess it's really preference.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: ironcoder on Tue, 20 October 2009, 03:44:04: I'm waiting for my 3 Trackmen to arrive based on what you guys said in another thread. I wondered if I should go for the marble because of the ball being under the index finger but I think it might be more painful in the long run to use an index finger ball even though it might be marginally more accurate.

I agree with what somebody said about the thumb being more of a gross motor control type of thing, but I think it should be more comfortable and accurate enough for my use.

Does anybody remember using the big trackballs on arcade games? We always used 4 fingers to beat those around. I bet if you have some software control over how much the trackball scales, you can get it perfect for whatever you need.

I prefer a 3 button mouse, the 5 button ones I have seen are horrible.

Does the wheel also serve as a button on the trackman?
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: o2dazone on Tue, 20 October 2009, 19:36:45: Quote from: ironcoder;127133
Does the wheel also serve as a button on the trackman?

yup
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: ironcoder on Wed, 21 October 2009, 02:54:25: thanks
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: WhiteWolfe on Thu, 12 November 2009, 22:03:06: Noob here, but I have a suggestion for replacement bearings.

Use carbide bearings. They are much harder than what the mouse came with.

I have 2 MTOs and I cant stand to use a regular mouse. I have one apart now and will be looking for carbide bearings locally tomorrow. If I cant find them I think they can be ordered thru amazon.

There is a seller on ebay that cleans the whole mouse and replaces the bearings with carbide for $62. To high for me, but some people may not be comfy with taking one apart.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 13 November 2009, 06:15:16: Cool stuff. Is there anything other than the bearings that die on these mice?
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: WhiteWolfe on Fri, 13 November 2009, 18:24:41: Quote from: ch_123;132095
Cool stuff. Is there anything other than the bearings that die on these mice?

I had my scroll wheel die on one. At the time I wasnt thinking to clearly and threw the whole thing away. Today I would have repaired it.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: o2dazone on Sat, 14 November 2009, 01:27:48: I've seen tutorials where they've replaced the ballbearings with carbide or ruby

http://homepage2.nifty.com/__I~~IO/tbo/index.htm

Shows a bit of the how to portion. Doesn't look too tough if you've got the right tools
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: WhiteWolfe on Sun, 15 November 2009, 01:36:24: Quote from: o2dazone;132328
I've seen tutorials where they've replaced the ballbearings with carbide or ruby

http://homepage2.nifty.com/__I~~IO/tbo/index.htm

Shows a bit of the how to portion. Doesn't look too tough if you've got the right tools

I ordered some carbide bearings from Amazon for under $9 shipped. And thats for a pack of 25. Going to replace all of them in the 2 that I have now.
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: chimera15 on Tue, 17 November 2009, 00:31:07: Quote from: WhiteWolfe;132608
I ordered some carbide bearings from Amazon for under $9 shipped. And thats for a pack of 25. Going to replace all of them in the 2 that I have now.

link?
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: WhiteWolfe on Tue, 17 November 2009, 06:09:06: Quote from: chimera15;133120
link?

Chimera15,

Think I got the last 25 pack. How many do you need?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FMWD6M (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FMWD6M)

These are a bit oversized and not sure how well they would work, but silicon carbide is almost as hard a a diamond.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=me%3DAFLT987H7WA7G&field-keywords=2mm+carbide+bearing&x=0&y=0 (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=me%3DAFLT987H7WA7G&field-keywords=2mm+carbide+bearing&x=0&y=0)
Title: Microsoft Trackball Optical
Post by: chimera15 on Tue, 17 November 2009, 23:04:28: Quote from: WhiteWolfe;133153
Chimera15,

Think I got the last 25 pack. How many do you need?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FMWD6M (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FMWD6M)

These are a bit oversized and not sure how well they would work, but silicon carbide is almost as hard a a diamond.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=me%3DAFLT987H7WA7G&field-keywords=2mm+carbide+bearing&x=0&y=0 (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=me%3DAFLT987H7WA7G&field-keywords=2mm+carbide+bearing&x=0&y=0)

I don't really need any right now. I still have some from the ball repairer guy on ebay that sent me some when he polished one of my balls, but it was more for a future reference. Before that I was using ball bearings from model rc cars, but it seems like there's better sources now.

Thanks.