No "clack"!? Away, heathen!
but it definitely won't help you attract members of the opposite sex
Why do women do whatever it is they do to their lips? They don't look right, and its so obvious that something was done to them.
Pah! Another thread hijacked!
While I was a completely avid Nostromo user in my FPS days, if I had to chose a keyboard for gaming, I would go for the Filco with Cherry browns and NKRO. They have some tactility, but nothing that would be prohibitive to a little button mashing. That, and it is very nice to type on. I think I would find something like a Steelseries or a Deck a little tiring as the black switches are much heavier than the browns, and I also prefer tactility when I type.
Cherry browns and the Topre capacitive switches would be my top two choices for gaming.
Do you type a lot? A lot of the recommendations here are for people who want something that's very nice to type on. If that's not an issue then something a lot cheaper might well do.
For cherry browns there would be the filco, and for Topre switches there is the Topre realforce 86u and 87u. The HHKB has similar switches. The link for the filco you pasted above is the correct one; it is the only filco that has n-key rollover and tactile switches
Actually both of the Filco's linked in this thread claim to have n-key rollover:
http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_104key&pid=fkbn104meb
http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87mleb
Yes, but, unless I'm mistaken, the tenkeyless does not have tactile switches; it uses linear black cherries.
Yeah, but that's just a stocking issue. Elite Keyboards will get in the Tenkeyless Brown Cherry models soon. And just to confuse you more they'll get in Blue Cherry models as well.
I'd look at it this way:
$60 keyboard - the value segment. If you don't already have a good gaming mouse make sure you buy that first. Scorpius M10 or ABS M1 good candidates. If you don't come back to Geekhack you will be very happy with this keyboard (unless you have a quality issue - check the RMA policy).
$130 keyboards - premium segment. Gets you that little extra but puts you above 99% of the keyboards out there. Will beat the pants off the G19 and other gaming keyboards. We're talking Japanese Samurai mystique, buzzwords like Nkey Rollover, and quality matching your $70 mouse. Das or Filco in my book. No on the Deck.
$300 keyboards - Topre switches. Aids the Japanese economy.
YMMV.
- Ripster
P.S. And don't eat cheetos at your keyboard!
Why do women do whatever it is they do to their lips? They don't look right, and its so obvious that something was done to them.
Is this the keyboard you are recommending:
http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_104key&pid=fkbn104meb
I'd say my typing is pretty "typical" - emails, web browsing, chat, basic MS office docs, etc. I don't type long papers or anything. Is there something much cheaper out there, or are these recommended keyboards worth the money?
Would it be that easy to clean these mechanical switch keyboards? I hate getting gunk in my keyboard.
I did see this SealShield keyboard, have any of you used it:
http://www.sealshield.com/sealshield.htm
It claims to have "Key Switch Membrane key switch with tactile feedback".
HHKB Pro II is currently "only" 185 euro or 250 dollar.
Size (it is really tall, but lengthwise it is shorter so can fit in my laptop bag just) wouldn't be so bad if they made the trackball modular)
Weird F keys, numpad, insert, end etc arrangement
No windows key (not really matters much and also when gaming can be a boon)
Colour (mine is yellowing)
Low quality of Trackball size (scratchy and feels accurate) and high strength pressure mouse keys(if they put cherry browns for the clicks it would feel much more usable)
ps-2 connection - doesn't work with my laptop well using a usb converter
The only true "non-standard" aspect of the Compaq 11800 is that the Alt key is under the Z instead of X. I can see that being a problem for gaming although I've adjusted to it. Otherwise, the main body of keys are in standard layout and the 6 keys including delete are in standard layout albeit placed up top near center so that your fingers reach less and you can have the mouse closer.
Functionality has always been far more important to me than mere looks. If you want to talk ugly, look at the Unicomp logo (rofl, it's fashionable to take a swipe at that every now and then). To be blunt, I think the "Das Keyboard" is a piece of crap that is overhyped and overpriced. The SteelSeries keyboards wear easy and that's disappointing given the price. I have not used Filcos but they actually seem to have much more substance than "Das". My "Made in Germany" labelled Compaq seems to be of very good quality, with the IBM 1391401 being my predictable standard of reference.
I personally would not pay $115 vs $20 just for looks or "cool factor". A lot of that "cool factor" is just hype. The Compaq has the same Switches (engine of a car) as the more expensive keyboards. It feels the same and types the same. It is of very good quality, people find stray Compaqs and use them without problems. You'd be looking for a new one of course while using a used one. Just my 2 cents. The choice is yours.
If this keyboard uses the exact same type of switches as the much more expensive Filcos, then it might be worth it to try it out just to get a sense of the feel of the cherry brown keys.
Upon closer inspection, it seems the only non-standard aspect of it would be the placement of the keypad and the arrow keys. If this keyboard uses the exact same type of switches as the much more expensive Filcos, then it might be worth it to try it out just to get a sense of the feel of the cherry brown keys.
I'm not sure if this would change anyone's responses any, but I re-read my OP and realized I had left out one thing - I would like something with some tactile feedback, just without as loud of clacking as the Dell AT101W. Some noise is OK, and might even be good. The keys on the generic Dell keyboard I am using now just kind of mush down (when they don't get stuck that is).
Yes, that or the Tenkeyless.
Out of curiosity, why did Dell and IBM quit making their clicky keyboards?
F keys are placed intuitively. Simply two rows instead of 1. Besides, who really uses the F keys? I use F5 for refreshing and that's placed at the conventional spot.
I'm not sure if this would change anyone's responses any, but I re-read my OP and realized I had left out one thing - I would like something with some tactile feedback, just without as loud of clacking as the Dell AT101W. Some noise is OK, and might even be good. The keys on the generic Dell keyboard I am using now just kind of mush down (when they don't get stuck that is).
SpecialK, this is a good video to give you an idea of the sound (and look) of some of the keyboards mentioned. What I like is he miked at the same level so it's as close to real life as I've seen.
http://www.viddler.com/explore/HotHardware/videos/69/
- Ripster
F5 and F9 are probably two of the most used keys on the keyboard for gaming since that's what quicksave and quickload and set to. The compaq does seem to have those two rather close together.
SpecialK, this is a good video to give you an idea of the sound (and look) of some of the keyboards mentioned. What I like is he miked at the same level so it's as close to real life as I've seen.
http://www.viddler.com/explore/HotHardware/videos/69/
- Ripster
Wow, that was pretty neat - thanks for posting that. Honestly though, I didn't notice a huge difference in volume between the different keyboards he tested.
I have found that many of my keyboards don't really vary much in absolute loudness. It's the pitch of the sound that makes one more distracting/annoying than the other. My Northgate, though, takes the cake. People think there is a drive-by shooting taking place every time I use it.
All of the other keyboards are available from retailers that do accept returns (Amazon, Newegg, etc.). Even Das Keyboard has a no questions asked 30 day return policy.
And don't get me started on electronic retailers like Best Buy (restocking fees....)
2nd dat! I've even had problems with Amazon returning stuff. And all these secondary vendors on their site is making it hard to just click and buy something.
- Ripster
KB Brand KB Model switch type price store rollover
ABS M1 black alps $59.99 Newegg 6-key
Deck Legend Ice cherry black $159.00 Deck Keyboards full (PS/2) 10-key (6-key + modifiers (ALT, CRTL, etc) (USB)
SteelSeries 7G cherry black $131.99 Newegg full (PS/2 vs USB not specified)
Filco FKBN104M/EB cherry brown $129.00 Elite Keybords full (PS/2) 8-key (USB)
Das Keyboard Professional cherry blue $129.00 Das Keyboard 12-key (USB)
Compaq MX 11800 cherry brown ~$15.00 ebay/geekhack ???
Scorpius M10 cherry blue $49.99 Amazon 6-key (USB)
Dell AT101W black alps $12.00 etiexpress ???
Solidtek ASK-6600U white alps $43.99 thenerds.net/amazon ???
Unicomp Customizer 104 buckling spring $69.00 pckeyboards.com ???
IBM Model M 1391401 buckling spring ~$40.00 ebay/geekhack ???
Frankly I'm shocked at some of the tales I've heard from Americans of how they've abused return policies.
You're back! I could tell that coming from Anandtech you weren't really a n00b. We tend to scare off all the real n00bs with a flurry of posts.
Yeah, that table looks right. And don't buy the LED Deck puleeez...
If you do they have a policeman model that is will give you some street cred (click for link):Show Image(http://www.tg3electronics.com/products/images/bl82_1.jpg)
(http://www.tg3electronics.com/products/backlitkeyboards/bl82.php)
I imagine cops drawing their weapons, blood spattering, Pulp Fiction brain messes. And the keyboard still works!
I think your plan of starting with a lower cost Ebay model is a smart way to go IF the shipping is OK, otherwise you're there the Scorpius M10 territory and might want to take a chance you'll get a good one. See this first:
http://www.amazon.com/Ione-Scorpius-Mechanical-Keyswitch-Keyboard/product-reviews/B000UC1W3C/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
- Ripster
lol, i think each of us would have a story that would shock you.
I guess you're located in europe?
It's your budget but I wouldn't forget GeekGirl.
black alps: medium resistance, no audible click except bottoming out, medium tactile bump.
white alps: light resistance, pretty loud audible click plus bottoming out, light tactile bump.
I think you guys in the U.S. have a very different attitude to returns than Europeans. Sure, we now have laws about being able to return mail order items, but that is a VERY new thing. But you Americans have been, shall we say, demanding consumers basically forever. Contrary to being treated like dirt, you've had your vendors over a barrel and got great service as a result. You see it as a right to buy things, try them out, then send them back on a whim. Doesn't the fact that you are able to view things that way speak volumes?
Yes, in the UK. I've just checked and our long distance selling regulations (http://www.out-law.com/page-430#Return) have been around since 2000! Suppliers have been pretty quiet about it and I can see why, it's strongly loaded in favour of the buyer. I think our attitude to shopping has yet to catch up with this law.
If you're going to try a mechanical keyboard then It might help if you maintain a list of the one's you've rejected as well so we can suggest ones you haven't looked at.
The black real alps (the ones the dell AT101 has) have very little bump in the travel, I don't know if the fake alps are stronger or whether that information is wrong.
Does the AT101W use black
Is the AT101 just shorthand for AT101W, or are they two totally separate keyboards?
ALPS type switches are also available in different configurations. White ALPS type switches, like the Cherry MX Blues, are both tactile and clicky, whereas the Black type are not. Black ALPS copies are tactile, but non-clicky.
Yes, black alps only.
Two separate. AT101 is rubber dome whereas AT101W is black alps mechanical. I found a AT101 in my basement, got excited, only to find it was rubber dome.
From what I remember of the AT101W I used, it made fairly loud clicky noises. Perhaps I don't understand the distinction between tactile and clicky?
Tactile means you feel a distinct "bump" as the key is pressed down, but before it bottoms out, correct? Doesn't this action produce a click? Isn't a click also produced when a key on any keyboard bottoms out? It seems any keyboard could be described as "clicky".
Thanks for the correction IBI. Looks like I got unlucky finding a rubber dome AT101. :(
I suggest Cherry Brown switches. Light so it's not tiring when you're mashing keys, not too noisy as you wanted, and you can acquire it for relatively cheap price.
Buy the Compaq MX-11800 in the forum marketplace for $15+shipping (I'm not seller btw).
Cost and noise. Over time, keyboards were an easy place to reduce cost. The IBM Model M retailed for something like $100 (inflation adjusted). Why include a $100 keyboard when you can include a $10 keyboard and charge the same price? Also, as rubber dome keyboards became more prevalent (as well as cubicles), the quieter sound became much prefered. Today, most people are just plain ignorant to the quality keyboards that are available.
When did Dell officially quit making the AT101W?
2. Both of these keyboards are supposed to have tactile switches. The MX 11800 uses cherry browns, and the AT101W uses black alps. Honestly I am having difficulty detecting the tatillity. I have to move the key very slowly to feel the tactile bump. As a result, I'm bottoming out on every keystroke because the tactile bump is not prominent enough to be felt by my fingers when I am typing at full speed.That may become better if you get used to it... or it might not. Depends on your typing technique I guess, touch typists tend not to hit the keys quite as much.
3. The key repeat rate on these two particular boards seems extremely slow compared to what I was used to. If I hold down the backspace key, it takes quite awhile for a line of text to be deleted.Are you using a USB adapter by any chance? Some have been reported not be passing on user-defined delay and repeat values.
Maybe a BS keyboard wouldn't be so bad after all.If you're a bit of a "heavy hitter", you could do worse than giving one a try. They are pretty noisy though, so for surfing and such it's not quite ideal. In return, typing precision is among the very best.
6. I haven't had any issues with off-center keypresses yet, which is good. The keys respond uniformly every time I hit them, whereas I could definitely tell when I hit a key off center with my old Dell rubber membrane board because the key would stick.Simple rubber dome 'boards can be pretty nasty in terms of mechanics.
Sounds though that you are a fully indoctrinated Geekhacker now and are on your way to a bit of a keyboard hunt.As they'd say elsewhere (http://www.head-fi.org/), welcome to Geekhack, and sorry about your wallet... :D
2. Both of these keyboards are supposed to have tactile switches. The MX 11800 uses cherry browns, and the AT101W uses black alps. Honestly I am having difficulty detecting the tatillity. I have to move the key very slowly to feel the tactile bump. As a result, I'm bottoming out on every keystroke because the tactile bump is not prominent enough to be felt by my fingers when I am typing at full speed.
4. Originally I said I didn't want a board with click/clack noises, but the clack of the keys (clack meaning when the keys bottom out - the switches themselves are silent) on these two boards is starting to grow on me. The AT101W's clack is slightly louder than the MX11800's. Maybe a BS keyboard wouldn't be so bad after all.
That may become better if you get used to it... or it might not. Depends on your typing technique I guess, touch typists tend not to hit the keys quite as much.
I even manage to bottom out Cherry G81s at full speed, and bottom out harder than I like on blues.
Are you using a USB adapter by any chance? Some have been reported not be passing on user-defined delay and repeat values.
I am a touch typist. I guess I just have a fairly aggressive keypress.Generally not surprising if you're used to rubber domes, which need to be bottomed out.
No, I'm just using the regular PS/2 port.Strange, they should take the typematic settings just fine then. Was your old board connected like this as well?
Strange, they should take the typematic settings just fine then. Was your old board connected like this as well?
Yes, they were both connected through the same PS/2 port.
I had this problem the first time I plugged in the mx11800 too. I did a reboot and then it worked fine.
That's an interesting observation. I always assumed PS/2 was hot-swappable like USB, since that's always the way it seemed to behave for me.
PS/2 is NOT hot-swappable. It is not hot-pluggable. I have seen many PS/2 ports blown where people have assumed it was safe to plug in a keyboard. Most of those were very expensive servers. I don't think mice caused as many problems, probably they draw less current.
What is it about a USB port that allows you to hot-swap mice and keyboards? How does it differ from PS/2 in that respect?
I had this problem the first time I plugged in the mx11800 too. I did a reboot and then it worked fine.
As they'd say elsewhere (http://www.head-fi.org/), welcome to Geekhack, and sorry about your wallet... :D
Oh cool, what did you get?
I got a set of Sony MDR-XD400's. They aren't top of the line, but they were recommended as a good set of entry-level hi-fi headphones.
I like the MDR-XD400's, although I wonder what a more expensive pair like the DT770's would sound like.
something else right down your guys's alley would be fountain pens, since I'm assuming you guys write a lot.. Any of you guys use them?
Oh yea.. keyboards. Has special k decided which he likes yet?
SpecialK, you are showing true signs of keyboard addiction. In 139 posts (admittedly about half of them are complete garbage) we've witnessed a major Geekhacker forming.
I was going to recommend the blue cherry Chinese Lettered G80-3000 (http://www.geminicomputersinc.com/g80-3000lscrc-2.html) but it looks like they are out of stock.
Well, the Chinese Lettered one is still available here (http://www.poshouse.com/item.asp?PID=3737&CID=61). Hate it when they show a picture of a white keyboard and say you're ordering the black version.
The other option is to wait for the blue cherry Filcos to show up but they won't be cheap - it's a special order. I'm not going to defend the Das any more, I give up on those guys. The M10 isn't THAT risky - if you get a bad one just return it.
Good time maybe to wait a few weeks and watch the fun as Filcos ship, Das blows up, and maybe Cherry wises up and ships a clicky keyboard to THE BIGGEST MARKET IN THE WORLD DAMMIT. Naah, the last one will never happen.
Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2465&stc=1&d=1242708380)
People generally say ergonomics.
Lots of opinions on that one.
Just get what you need. If you like having a numpad and don't mind reaching a little more for that mouse then go for it. Interesting though the Japanese keyboard geeks like the smaller boards too. Trendy I guess.
As well as the ****-waving points for anyone that happens to see it.
You must be another American.
What sort of key combos are you failing on? If you're after build quality primarily then a decent but basic rubber dome keyboard might be a better choice - rubber and plastic sheeting should be less fist-sensitive than a mechanical switch - although you will have trouble finding one with full n-key rollover.
American? Way to insult every Australian on Earth.
i am ignorant. i havent read any part of this thread. all i can say is buy a model m.
i am ignorant. i havent read any part of this thread. all i can say is buy a model m.
Here's a NIB Model M (http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-IBM-Model-M-Clicky-Keyboard-Blue-logo-PS-2-Boxed_W0QQitemZ130306868032QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item1e56e50340&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50)from what looks to be a decent Ebay seller - 100% rating, low shipping, and even has a RMA policy. I wouldn't pay more than $70 though, at that point you might as well just get a Unicomp.
Ignore this joker (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=290317645001). He started with a $185 BIN - I want to see him suffer for trying to raise the price for all of us.
American? Way to insult every Australian on Earth. Mind you, we're just as fat and just as angry, but we have silly accents and drink a whole lot more.
For key combos, I play using the arrow keys most of the time and Up + Left + Num 0 doesn't work (Move diagonally + Reload), but Left + Down + Num 0 does, Up + Left + Del doesn't work either (Move diagonally + Crouch), but Down + Left + Del does. Unfortunately, when I'm trying to crouch, check the scoreboard, strafe and reload all at the same time, it never ends well.
Also, in my second year of some sort of programming degree, I assume I'm eventually going to be doing more than **** all and it'll probably involve clacking away on codes or feasibility reports or something, so a good quality keyboard probably can't be any worse than what I'm currently on, yeah?
I don't know what the build quality of the Das and Filco are like, the only cherry switch keyboard I had was the Raptor-Gaming K1, which seemed so fragile inside with it's free floating circuit board I didn't even dare to hit it.
"What a classic line! I like this forum! ;)
Ignore this joker (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=290317645001). He started with a $185 BIN - I want to see him suffer for trying to raise the price for all of us.
The Filco is solid. So is the G80-3000 from Cherry.
I thought the G80-3000 used the same design as the G80-1800? Keys mounted on a circuit board that was only supposed by the edges and maybe a few ridges underneath.
I get no pleasure out of scraping that 20 year old tape off the boards either - let them do it.
You could also have a look at importing a filco keyboard from Japan, that uses the US layout I believe is common in your country and you apparently have generous customs laws over there and don't have to pay any charges to import things under 1000AUD.
hopefully, be having finger orgasms tomorrow afternoon.
It might be, but I don't have any problems with flexing or any other structural issues. It is lighter than the Filco, but it doesn't feel fragile, by any means. I get a little better key feel from the G80 than I do from the Filco as well, but I think that is more due to the material used in the keycaps more than anything else structural.
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b". We've done our job.
I considered it, but EliteKeyboards quoted me $50 for shipping and the Yen exchange rate is not doing so well, making either option more expensive than the Das Keyboard by no small amount.Tell me about it :(
Even though the Euro vs the Yen isn't too bad, by the time I get past the buyers service fee, shipping costs and additional taxes I'm going to end up paying double the actual cost price for a filco.
Good time maybe to wait a few weeks and watch the fun as Filcos ship, Das blows up, and maybe Cherry wises up and ships a clicky keyboard to THE BIGGEST MARKET IN THE WORLD DAMMIT. Naah, the last one will never happen.
1. The keys of the MX-11800 "rebound" quicker than those of the AT101W
2. The keys of the MX-11800 require less force to press than those of the AT101W
Well I've had a chance to use my AT101W and MX-11800 for a few weeks now, and here are my impressions:
I definitely prefer the MX-11800 over the AT101W. I can type faster and more accurately on the MX-11800, although I'm not exactly sure why. Here are a couple theories:
1. The keys of the MX-11800 "rebound" quicker than those of the AT101W
2. The keys of the MX-11800 require less force to press than those of the AT101W
Also, do most/all mechanical keyboards have a metal plate in them? I really like that the AT101W has some heft to it due to the metal plate inside.
I doubt return speed has any effect, although bounciness at the bottom of the travel may do. I'm not convinced force has any great effect either as there are keys with a wide ranges of forces that are nice to type on. Rather I feel it's a combination of the force graph of the switch, the shape and fitting of the keycaps, the tilting of the rows and the accoustics of the keyboard.
What's the difference between the force and the force graph of the switch? Aren't they the same thing?
Also how do the acoustics of the keyboard affect ones typing speed and accuracy?
Well, "force" doesn't really mean anything in this context, as the force required to depress the key varies throughout the travel of the key (and that holds true for any keyboard). Perhaps you mean "peak force" or the like, which (as far as I can tell) refers to the minimum amount of force that has to be applied to the switch to activate it.
A force graph plots the amount of force required to depress the key over the duration of the key's travel, if that makes sense. I'd recommend looking at a force graph for a switch that you use, and see if you can see how it relates to what you feel when you press the key.
I think the point that IBI was getting at is that it's not as much the peak force that matters, but moreso things like where it peaks during the travel, how suddenly it comes on etc.
My mechanical physics is a bit rusty I'm afraid... Any force graph for a keyboard I have seen plots Force in cN against distance in mm. Work as far as I remember was force x distance, not one over the other?
If I apply a force to the key, doesn't that imply that the key is accelerating downward? What if I'm moving the key down with a constant velocity? Does that mean F = 0? Would it make more sense to talk about the work done to move the switch?
No it doesn't mean that F=0, because there is an upwards force exerted by the spring (or whatever mechanism) that increases as the key moves downwards.
So to move the key down with a constant velocity you have to use a force that is always equal to the increasing upwards force exerted by the spring PLUS enough force to overcome friction, and decrease the force you use right after the tactile bump.
I have notice the springy sound in my Ms, but it doesn't bother me near as much as the click in Cherry blues.
Here's the recording of a Unicomp Spacesaver versus a NIB IBM 1391401
Here's the recording of a Unicomp Spacesaver versus a NIB IBM 1391401 - if you can't hear a difference you've been listening to too much Heavy Metal.
On another note, I just picked up my first blue cherry board today, the Ione Scorpius M10. I think I can definitively say that I prefer lighter switches to heavier ones, and that my favorite is either the cherry brown or the cherry blue. Choosing between those two would be more difficult, however.
I will say that the M10 doesn't feel as cheap as I expected. The keyboard itself has some heft to it; I wouldn't be surprised to find a metal plate inside. The keys themselves feel like they are made of very light plastic, however. From what I have read, the potentital issue with this board is the soldering. I mainly got this board as a cheap way to try out the cherry blue switches.
I was searching youtube and came across this video review/advertisement for the Scorpius M10:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXnGH6IMOfI
In the video review, the reviewer claims the M10 allows for 6 simultaneous keypresses. Yeah right. This thing isn't any better than most keyboards out there in that regard. It can't handle more than two of QWAS, for example.
I already sent an email to the video's author about it. Maybe I can get their ad pulled just like I did for the M1. :wink:
Can anyone open up an M10 and make pics of the keyboard matrix?
-huha
Depends on what's going on there, but usually, the back will suffice. Should be as high-res as possible and individual traces should be clearly separated.
A reference picture of the layout will help a lot, but this doesn't need to be high-res at all.
-huha
The only two switches I can think of that I haven't yet tried are black cherries and white alps. However, given that buckling spring is my least favorite switch, is it even worth trying the black cherries?
Also, what about white alps? I don't see much mention of them on here.
Are there any other switch types I'm not thinking of that are worth trying?
There are some SMK switches in vintage boards that people like. If you're after a particular type, they're about as easy to got hold of as your average phantom though.
What exactly would I be looking for here?Possibly these (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6474) or the infamous Chicony KB-5181 (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6128) (which may ship with all kinds of switches, Alps-ish blue SMKs and blue Cherry ones included).
Might want to keep a saved Ebay search for the Focus FK-2001 to try a original White Alps. This one (http://cgi.ebay.com/FOCUS-FK-2001-Keyboard-CLICKY-KEYS-Absolutely-MINT-See_W0QQitemZ300330955857QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item45ed1eb451&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14) went for $45.
I'm not impressed with the simplified XM White Alps though and the trouble with obsolete switches is I really only want NIB keyboards.
I believe Northgate-Keyboard-Repair.com has some NIBs if you are terribly interested in trying real Alps.
White alps seem much more expensive and rare than black alps for some reason. You can still pick up a NIB AT101W for $15 to try black alps, but white alps seem to be much harder to come by.
Maybe it's all about the bounce-back (http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/582671/457b0642/lekker_trampoline_springen_in_de_tuin.html)?
Might want to keep a saved Ebay search for the Focus FK-2001 to try a original White Alps. This one (http://cgi.ebay.com/FOCUS-FK-2001-Keyboard-CLICKY-KEYS-Absolutely-MINT-See_W0QQitemZ300330955857QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item45ed1eb451&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14) went for $45.
and the winning bidder will probably discover that that focus doesn't have real white alps switches, but fake simplifieds instead. if he even realizes (or cares) that there's a difference.
the older the focus, the more likely it is to have genuine alps switches. if it has windows keys, it's pretty much a guarantee that it uses fake simplifieds.
the only way to be 100% sure of the switches used is to have the seller confirm by pulling a keycap.
and the winning bidder will probably discover that that focus doesn't have real white alps switches, but fake simplifieds instead. if he even realizes (or cares) that there's a difference.
the older the focus, the more likely it is to have genuine alps switches. if it has windows keys, it's pretty much a guarantee that it uses fake simplifieds.
the only way to be 100% sure of the switches used is to have the seller confirm by pulling a keycap.
and the winning bidder will probably discover that that focus doesn't have real white alps switches, but fake simplifieds instead. if he even realizes (or cares) that there's a difference.
the older the focus, the more likely it is to have genuine alps switches. if it has windows keys, it's pretty much a guarantee that it uses fake simplifieds.
the only way to be 100% sure of the switches used is to have the seller confirm by pulling a keycap.
I think the xm white alps do some things better that the blues (clean sound and travel, fast bounce back), but you must be into the slightly heavier keystroke and break-away force graph.
Maybe it's all about the bounce-back (http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/582671/457b0642/lekker_trampoline_springen_in_de_tuin.html)?
I have a FK-2001 with windows keys and REAL white alps. Of course, of the 7 or so of these boards I had, only 1 had real alps. It was in pretty bad shape, so I pulled the click leaves out of it and put it in my AT101W (used the black alps springs though).
Maybe it's all about the bounce-back (http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/582671/457b0642/lekker_trampoline_springen_in_de_tuin.html)?
I have a FK-2001 with windows keys and REAL white alps.
Wow, that makes it even more difficult to identify true white alps. I don't think I would trust an ebay seller to know the difference. Heck, I don't even think I would be able to tell the difference.
out of curiosity, does it have the power management keys by the arrow cluster?
Now that you say that, that's a good point. It's odd that you can find cheap black Alps NIB, but not white. Northgate Keyboard Repair doesn't exactly give away those NIB Northgates. Since the Dells were OEM keyboards that shipped with thousands of systems, there might just be so many of them available that it drives down the price of that 'board. I am suprised, though, that there aren't more NIB Northgates, but then again, they didn't ship near as many systems as Dell.
I was looking on ebay for Northgate Omnikey and the used refurbished ones are selling for up to $200. Wow, are they selling for so much just because they are that rare?
They are that rare to a certain extent, and they are probably the best made keyboard on the planet. In the case of my Evolution, it beats the Model M in quality, ruggedness and pure win hands down; no contest.
If I had to go to war with one keyboard, the Northgate would be it.
Yep, I'll post soon how the thing works. Can't beat the tactile experience of a whirring 110VAC motor under your fingertips getting ready to pivot a ball to just the right spot before snapping the paper.
Lots of springs but none of them buckle.
Well, the Model F is also indisputably better-built than the Model M, and I'd argue that they have better switches.
Anybody know how the two compare? The Model F and the Nothgate?
Oh, and one more thing. I don't recall on the F, specifically, but Northgates don't have rivets that break when you look at them funny.
Don't get me wrong. I love the F and M and think they are great 'boards are very well-built. Northgates were on another level, though.
Switches are subjective as well as the layout, so that argument's out (Hell, I don't use a Model M or my Northgate mainly because of the switches). The Northgate has the better the overall construction with a 100% steel case (minus keycaps and the plastic cowling over the steel case on the top) and an additional steel plate in the 'board itself. The Northgate has self-conatined switches, with easier to replace parts (should you need to for any reason), a longer cable, and programmability (the F certainly doesn't have that). Also, a weight of around 5-10 lbs. (depending on your model) with rubber feet that need a bulldozer to move, the Northgate line was built to kill.
Oh yeah, I forgot - Northgates have double-shot molded keycaps, too.
Now if I could only remember where I posted those pictures about a year ago...
Oh yeah: http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=63214&postcount=2 Kinda crappy, but hey, I'm no photographer.
Ugh, I hate those "ergonomic" layouts, although I am aware Northgate made keyboards with regular layouts as well.
Most of the other Northgates were pretty ugly (not like the Evolution was a work of art, either). You can still get Northgate keyboards. They are under the CVT label now and are still pretty expensive (and unattractive). I don't know if the quality is still the same, though:
https://www.cvtinc.com/products/keyboards/menu.htm
Oh, and one more thing. I don't recall on the F, specifically, but Northgates don't have rivets that break when you look at them funny.
Do they still use white alps?
How are the springyness of those White Alps? The Black ones were pretty wimpy on the bounceback.
Maybe that's why I felt I couldn't type as fast on my AT101W as my brown and blue cherry boards. I knew there was something about the keys that made them feel "slower", I just couldn't quite determine what it was.
Yeah, I only realized it when someone else described the problem. It wouldnt be so bad if they didn't have such a high initial activation force. Typing on them is like falling through a roof, a sudden thump then down you go.
Wow, CVT still makes em?? The website says 4 lbs 6 oz so I doubt those are all metal ones though.
How are the springyness of those White Alps?
The Black ones were pretty wimpy on the bounceback.