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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 09:41:34

Title: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 09:41:34: I've been thinking about trying Cherry MX Reds (I currently have QFR/QFR Stealth with browns and blues). I have major problems with my hands/wrists, so the higher actuating MX switch types aren't a good fit for me. I'm also very interested in getting a tenkeyless keyboard with an exposed plate, which makes for easier keyboard cleaning. I have three cats, and the Ragdoll in particular has baby fine hair that sticks like velcro and gets EVERYWHERE. I use my keyboard for playing WoW, the usual e-mail and whatnot, and for doing college work.

For exposed plate TKLs, I'm currently only aware of the Corsair K65 and the Monoprice Pro Backlit Macro Mechanical Gaming Keyboard. Both have MX Reds, both have aluminum bodies. The Monoprice has backlighting (a huge plus), an extra USB port (love), magnetic wrist rest (I like, but it won't work my current dual keyboard setup). The Monoprice has macro keys that I would use because they're there, but they're not a "need." The K65 has volume control buttons that are nice, but again, I don't really need - and they add to the depth of the keyboard, which is a minus for my needs. Since I do use two keyboards on my desk (one elevated on a Grifiti Fat wrist rest and tucked just behind the other - used when I dual box and faceroll the second toon or the main PC is being rebooted/turned off), the Monoprice would physically fit better. It would also match my setup better, as all my gear is almost exclusively black (a shame, because the K65 is prettier imho).

That said, if I wind up liking reds better than browns or blues, the keyboard will end up with my Toxic keycaps (cannot wait to get them!). I'm not sure whether a black or aluminum silver keyboard will look better with the Toxic set, as the grey appears to be a fairly dark shade. I also don't know how the Monoprice's orange backlighting will look. Would the green lettering allow for any show through (which might look kind of cool or perfectly horrible) or will the back lighting just peep around the bottoms of the keys? Finally, I fully plan purchase AcidFire's keyboard once it's available, so this keyboard would move to being a secondary keyboard at best. I plan to use my Amazon points for either keyboard, so the price difference doesn't matter - the keyboard will either be "free" or at most cost me $10.

So, thoughts? Anything I'm missing in comparing the two (funky sized space-bar for keycaps, etc.?) Any TKL alternatives - again, with an exposed plate like these two?
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: SonOfSonOfSpock on Wed, 04 June 2014, 09:56:13: Maybe try a keyboard cover? That way you can cover it up while not in use. I know people in very dusty areas use these.

Also, if you have hand and wrist problems it might benefit you to look at ergonomic keyboards. Most have keys with lighter activation force.
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: Defect on Wed, 04 June 2014, 10:14:22: I might be missing something.

What do you mean about "exposed plate?" Is the QFR's plate hidden?

Personally I do not like Monoprice and Corsair boards. Personally.
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 10:19:36: There isn't a case surrounding the keys that creates "crannies" to trap debris. It is a cleaner look that I find appealing from a cosmetic standpoint, but it also makes it easier to get in and clean hair/debris from around the keycaps.

(http://www.corsair.com/en-us/~/media/ECB169AA8E424563861F8908C17CC097.ashx?w=380)

Monoprice and Corsair wouldn't be my "go to" brands either, but they're at least not Razer (although I love Razer's huge mousepads). It's not intended to be a "forever keyboard," since I will be switching to AcidFire's offering whenever it comes out.

It doesn't have to be top tier build quality, it just has to not really suck, and it must have Cherry MX Reds.
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 10:23:02: As I said, I'm waiting on AcidFire's ergonomic keyboard to be available, but I still will need a second keyboard for occasional use. Plus, I would like to make sure I don't prefer MX Reds to browns/blues when I'm ready to order. I find blues awkward/fatiguing for gaming, which is why I went to browns, but reds might be even better - won't know til I try!

Keyboard covers won't prevent stuff from getting in while I actually use my keyboard - which is a ton. And I really can't stress what a pain in the buns Ragdoll cat hair is. If I'd had any idea, I never would have adopted one, although we love the sweet little bugger, so clearly I will be dealing with the fur issue for as long as he lives (which is at least another decade plus!).

I had already checked out what's currently available for ergonomic keyboards and couldn't find anything that would work well enough for me - I'm petite and have very small hands, so I need something physically split that also lets me adjust the tent - but it needs to be female friendly, too! I also want it to be a mechanical keyboard. ErgoDox looked promising, but it was just too big for me - heck, even men complain the thumb clusters can be too much of a reach, and I have small hands even for a woman. AcidFire has been carefully ensuring that even women/people with smaller hands can use his keyboard - which no one else tries to do. Given women are more prone to carpal tunnel (we are 3x more likely!) and have historically held positions that require more typing, it's rather depressing - especially when the use of tools (such as keyboards and mice) designed around men is a contributor:

https://cupe.ca/fact-sheet-repetitive-strain-injuries

"Some physicians have called such problems “women’s complaints” saying that women are more prone to RSIs. However, it’s more likely that many women receive such injuries because they are employed in large numbers where such injuries are common (e.g. typing, keyboard work) or because the tools they must use are designed for the “average male”, not for the smaller grip many women have."
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: strict on Wed, 04 June 2014, 10:43:07: GON NS87 is TKL with an exposed plate.

(http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/3360/2xpr.jpg)

Not sure who to credit the image too, I found it on google.
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 04 June 2014, 10:48:57: Maybe you want something like this?

(http://i.imgur.com/N0lG8iK.jpg)
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: qwack on Wed, 04 June 2014, 10:52:49: I'm in the same boat as you regarding keyboard height and styling. I'm not too fond of high profile keyboard cases and as a consequence appreciate the "exposed plate" design you're talking about, and after using an Apple aluminium keyboard (which sits very low on the desk) for years, I find typing on higher-sitting keyboards to put too much strain on the wrists.

I got a Pure Pro because it had the switch type & layout I wanted, and since there is no aftermarket ultra low profile case I resolved to make one myself. Here is a crude proto made out of 3mm foamcore:

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1042331/Keyboard/nocase%20ULP/P6045213.JPG)

It's possible to make it sit even lower, and to fine-tune the inclination to my liking; even though it's foamcore, there is no flex at all because of the steel plate. The final version will be made out of 2mm aluminium.

So, if you're not afraid of modding your keyboard, you could just get something like a QFR (or any quality plate-mounted TKL) and do the same. It's really easy to do, you basically just have to cut a plate, drill/thread holes in the right locations and add feet underneath with small risers on the back. The edges will look a bit more crude than the GON NS87 shown right above, but it's cheap and a functionally perfect solution to the problem.
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: Defect on Wed, 04 June 2014, 10:53:45: Ergonomic Mech Boards are hard to come by.

You could try rocking a board with the top half of the case off. I do that with my choc mini personally.

Another temporary workaround is to buy a multi pack of compressed air to clean your board regularly. I mean like every day.

For switch type, reds are nice (lubed is nicer) but I found personally I fatigue less when I'm using Ghost Blacks (Black with clear spring). With reds you can't rest your hands on the keys at all, or you risk accidental key presses. I have heavy hands on some days and playing with my hands raised is sometimes a bother. Other days the spring weight is perfect. With lubed ghost blacks, it takes about the same force to actuate as it does to bottom out on reds. But the spring is very cushioned after that, with force increasing at a nice rate. Makes for a very smooth, not too heavy, cushioned experience. Every day I start to like them more and more, and am in the process of breaking in some black stems so they'll be ready for lube on my next 60%.

It's a modded switch, but if typing is your life, find the perfect switch for you (Jk perfect doesn't exist).

I'm going way off topic. Good luck in your search, sorry I wasn't more help.
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: JaccoW on Wed, 04 June 2014, 10:57:43: I was about to suggest GON as well.
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 11:04:57: I checked out GON. You buy just the plate and it is crazy expensive for my tastes (presumably because it's hand-made). If I were looking to stay with a "regular" keyboard it would probably be worth it, but since I'm going to be switching to AcidFire's ergonomic keyboard (which will probably cost less than just that plate!), not so much. Thanks, though!

I'm going to wait for more comments, but some more research turned up the fact that the K65 uses some funky modifier keycap sizes, whereas the Monoprice should be pretty standard/keycap friendly, so I'll probably go with the Monoprice, which is a Chinese Dearmo Blade rebadge.

Making my own plate/cover or altering switches is not an option for me. If I can BUY it and it isn't too terribly expensive, that'd be another thing. How hard is it to adjust to a 60 percent keyboard, and how gaming friendly/unfriendly would it be? What are the cons (besides voiding my warranty) to taking the cover off my QFRs?
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 11:09:42: Quote from: jdcarpe on Wed, 04 June 2014, 10:48:57
Maybe you want something like this?

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/N0lG8iK.jpg)

Can you buy that somewhere, and if so, for how much?
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 04 June 2014, 11:11:49: Quote from: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 11:09:42
Quote from: jdcarpe on Wed, 04 June 2014, 10:48:57
Maybe you want something like this?

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/N0lG8iK.jpg)

Can you buy that somewhere, and if so, for how much?

It's a one-off build I did, actually. If I were to sell it, the price would be inline with what you would pay for a GON. Maybe a little less, but similar.
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 11:25:57: Quote from: jdcarpe on Wed, 04 June 2014, 11:11:49
Quote from: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 11:09:42
Quote from: jdcarpe on Wed, 04 June 2014, 10:48:57
Maybe you want something like this?

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/N0lG8iK.jpg)

Can you buy that somewhere, and if so, for how much?

It's a one-off build I did, actually. If I were to sell it, the price would be inline with what you would pay for a GON. Maybe a little less, but similar.

I appreciate that it'd be worth what you charge for the labor/mats, just not in the market to spend that much on a keyboard that is a temporary solution for me. It's beautiful, though - you should be proud!
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 04 June 2014, 11:29:02: Quote from: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 11:25:57
I appreciate that it'd be worth what you charge for the labor/mats, just not in the market to spend that much on a keyboard that is a temporary solution for me. It's beautiful, though - you should be proud!

Thanks! I understand your predicament.
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: qwack on Wed, 04 June 2014, 11:52:57: Quote from: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 11:04:57
Making my own plate/cover or altering switches is not an option for me. If I can BUY it and it isn't too terribly expensive, that'd be another thing. How hard is it to adjust to a 60 percent keyboard, and how gaming friendly/unfriendly would it be? What are the cons (besides voiding my warranty) to taking the cover off my QFRs?

I found adjusting to a 60% layout very easy — basically if you don't mind using a modifier (Fn) to access F1-F12, it's not really different than any other keyboard, be it for typing or gaming. (edit : if you're playing wow, you probably need to access those F keys quickly, so you'll probably want to stick to your TKLs).

Removing your QFR cover may allow dust/cat hair to get between the plate and the PCB (on the other hand, if they already do, it will allow for easier cleaning). Anyway, since you already have QFRs, you could experiment with one. As I mentioned, I get satisfying results just with 3mm foamcore, which is really easy to work with (and using non-conductive material such as foamcore or plastic sheet makes it unnecessary to use some kind of insulator between the custom alu plate and the pcb). It's a bit ghetto but a nice solution to lower the profile of the keyboard and see what I prefer before I buy the materials needed for a more durable solution.

If you want to go that route and cannot make a bottom plate out of harder materials yourself, I'm sure someone on the board could make one for your QFRs at a fair price (I would, but since I'm in Europe the shipping alone would likely drive the price too high).
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: C5Allroad on Wed, 04 June 2014, 12:41:50: There's always the Neo Zelia
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 13:09:52: Quote from: HUNTERANGEL121 on Wed, 04 June 2014, 12:41:50
There's always the Neo Zelia

No one seems to have it in stock, although I did find a few people posting elsewhere about having problems with the keyboard, which did not inspire confidence.
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: C5Allroad on Wed, 04 June 2014, 13:11:30: Quote from: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 13:09:52
Quote from: HUNTERANGEL121 on Wed, 04 June 2014, 12:41:50
There's always the Neo Zelia

No one seems to have it in stock, although I did find a few people posting elsewhere about having problems with the keyboard, which did not inspire confidence.
I checked like 2 months ago on qtans site he had one, not sure about now
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 04 June 2014, 17:53:36: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56285.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50752.0
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 18:09:39: Quote from: rowdy on Wed, 04 June 2014, 17:53:36
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56285.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50752.0

The Flashget looks interesting and affordable....Thanks!
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 04 June 2014, 18:40:54: Quote from: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 18:09:39
Quote from: rowdy on Wed, 04 June 2014, 17:53:36
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56285.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50752.0

The Flashget looks interesting and affordable....Thanks!

The Flashget also has some quality issues - there is a review of it here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47262.0), but the owner sold it on a long time ago.
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: fohat.digs on Wed, 04 June 2014, 18:50:44: What about giant-ass keyboards with exposed plates?
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 19:41:59: Quote from: fohat.digs on Wed, 04 June 2014, 18:50:44
What about giant-ass keyboards with exposed plates?

Doh!
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 19:44:19: Quote from: qwack on Wed, 04 June 2014, 11:52:57
Quote from: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 11:04:57
Making my own plate/cover or altering switches is not an option for me. If I can BUY it and it isn't too terribly expensive, that'd be another thing. How hard is it to adjust to a 60 percent keyboard, and how gaming friendly/unfriendly would it be? What are the cons (besides voiding my warranty) to taking the cover off my QFRs?

I found adjusting to a 60% layout very easy — basically if you don't mind using a modifier (Fn) to access F1-F12, it's not really different than any other keyboard, be it for typing or gaming. (edit : if you're playing wow, you probably need to access those F keys quickly, so you'll probably want to stick to your TKLs).

Removing your QFR cover may allow dust/cat hair to get between the plate and the PCB (on the other hand, if they already do, it will allow for easier cleaning). Anyway, since you already have QFRs, you could experiment with one. As I mentioned, I get satisfying results just with 3mm foamcore, which is really easy to work with (and using non-conductive material such as foamcore or plastic sheet makes it unnecessary to use some kind of insulator between the custom alu plate and the pcb). It's a bit ghetto but a nice solution to lower the profile of the keyboard and see what I prefer before I buy the materials needed for a more durable solution.

If you want to go that route and cannot make a bottom plate out of harder materials yourself, I'm sure someone on the board could make one for your QFRs at a fair price (I would, but since I'm in Europe the shipping alone would likely drive the price too high).

Thanks so much - that's very sweet of you! So many talented, kind and generous people in this community. :)
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 20:34:43: Quote from: rowdy on Wed, 04 June 2014, 18:40:54
Quote from: kittykatmax on Wed, 04 June 2014, 18:09:39
Quote from: rowdy on Wed, 04 June 2014, 17:53:36
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56285.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50752.0

The Flashget looks interesting and affordable....Thanks!

The Flashget also has some quality issues - there is a review of it here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47262.0), but the owner sold it on a long time ago.

I think this is all telling me it was a nice thought but not something to act on. I guess I'll just stick with my QFR/QFRS MX Blue/MX Browns with their bulky cases and wait for AcidFire's keyboard, which could be out in a few months. Maybe I should just shave the cat? (Just kidding!)
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: aref on Wed, 04 June 2014, 23:58:55: I have a couple Corsair K65/MX Red, the only version available. If you like MX Red key switches, this is an inexpensive way to go in an exposed-architecture keyboard. The one change I made was adding WASD key caps, I prefer the feel to the K65's caps. And the keyboard uses Cherry stabilizers, which I like. The only drawback is the R1 space-bar row uses non-standard key cap sizes--the stock space bar, which has a tactile pattern, has to stay. I used standard Ctrl and Alt key caps from my WASD order, but a standard Ctrl key cap is slightly smaller than Corsair's. Regardless of these minor key-cap issues, the K65 is great keyboard with smooth-and-fluid feel linear MX Red switches.
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 05 June 2014, 02:19:59: Quote from: qwack on Wed, 04 June 2014, 10:52:49
... and since there is no aftermarket ultra low profile case I resolved to make one myself....

Wot? There are lots:

KBT Pure Limited aluminium case, Tex 60% aluminium case, Vortex black case GB (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47776.0), etc.. They may be a hair higher than your "caseless case" design, but at most it's a few mm. There's also the GON Skinny and NS38 designs.

A Poker 2 with any of these would be a sweet board. Low profile with plate looks awesome to me. I have a KBT Pure Limited and have ordered a plate for it. That's another route you could take.

On the other hand, if it's just a temporary solution while you wait for AcidFire to get his project to the market, perhaps it's better to get the Monoprice Pro Backlit (or the Flashget G600) for a few reasons:

1. You don't have to get used to a 60% layout only to switch again when the Axios is released.
2. The Flashget G600 is out of stock at BangGood... This board is a very good option although it doesn't have backlighting. If you can find it somewhere else, it may even be a better option than the Monoprice since it is a completely standard TKL layout so will accept the Toxic set without leaving unchanged areas.
3. The Toxic keycaps will fit on the monoprice, whereas they won't on the Corsair.
4. You may even use the extra macro keys in WoW.

I play WoW very casually and use my Pure sometimes, but mostly my 48-key custom board. The ergonomic custom board (the one in my current avatar) is the best gaming board I've ever used. The thumb keys make a massive difference. I think you'll find the Axios to be the same. I use SDF for movement (the vertical stagger makes this really comfortable), no need for a backwards key (I usually bind my interrupt to C). I bind my most used actions to QWERTAGZXCVB and have Tab, Shift, Backspace (bound to jump) and Fn (to change layers) on my thumb. I haven't found the need to bind Fn+(all 15 keys) yet, but I can if I need more actions. If I need even more I can bind the 3rd layer also (Fn+Shift+keys, my F keys are on this layer actually, so I could use them as default). If I map Ctrl or Alt to the key I use for Shift or the game recognises capitals as different keys, I can have up to 4 easy-to-use layers (default, Fn+key, Ctrl+key, Fn+Ctrl+key) without moving my hand from home position and I can't think of a game where you need more than 60 keybinds. All that with just 15 alpha keys, 4 thumb keys and 1 Esc.
Title: Re: TKLs with Exposed plates....
Post by: qwack on Thu, 05 June 2014, 09:17:35: Quote from: Oobly on Thu, 05 June 2014, 02:19:59
Quote from: qwack on Wed, 04 June 2014, 10:52:49
... and since there is no aftermarket ultra low profile case I resolved to make one myself....

Wot? There are lots:

KBT Pure Limited aluminium case, Tex 60% aluminium case, Vortex black case GB (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47776.0), etc.. They may be a hair higher than your "caseless case" design, but at most it's a few mm.

In fact, these few mm matter to me. Otherwise, yes, I would have been happy to get one of those low profile cases.