geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: OnTheBrink on Fri, 06 June 2014, 12:09:15

Title: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Fri, 06 June 2014, 12:09:15
So I received my WASD Code in the mail today (Cherry MX Clear) and it was the last switch I needed to try.

I think it is safe to say that I am a Topre fanboy now. I loved my FC660C when I got it (still do) but it was my first Topre board. However, I needed to try every switch before I decided it was my end-game switch. I did everything from typing a lot to gaming. Even though gaming is what I do the most, I needed a switch that was both fun to game with and gave me a crisp, engaging typing experience. Especially since I play mostly social games.

With all that said, Topre is the switch for me. I have since decided to spring for an HHKB just to test it side by side with an FC660C since I hear most people still praise HHKB over the FC660C. Luckily, using a proxy saves quite a bit of money ($350 for a type-s, the Christmas bundle and a spare set of keys).

I will likely be taking apart the HHKB Type-S to compare the silencing with the at-home modded silencing I did to the FC660C.

The thing I do like about the Clear switches is the stiffness. Perhaps I will mod the HHKB with Realforce plungers and domes to make it 55g? Who knows!

Anyway, the moral of this story, Topre is the master race. For me anyway.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Xowie on Fri, 06 June 2014, 12:15:33
Nice, I have been wanting to try clears. (I have a keypad coming that I might put clear switches in).

Oh and:
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/38/388a5d8fe9d53c38af13497902f993db782236b7be19e25eefd977ce01cc5d2b.jpg)
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Kmynis on Fri, 06 June 2014, 12:18:28
Similar situation here. I got a HHKB type-s a few days ago as my first topre and I simply love it.

It is like that rainymood thingy, but for my fingers.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Fri, 06 June 2014, 12:52:08
Haha, yeah. I am eager to try the Type-S and see how much different it is from an at home modded Topre. The main thing I don't like about the mod is the reduction in key travel. If a Type-S fixes this, I will be one happy enthusiast.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: osi on Fri, 06 June 2014, 13:21:37
Luckily it only took me 1 MX board before I took the topre plunge and have no regrets whatsoever.

I do however prefer MX reds for gaming but I'm an FPS gamer primarily.

It took me two months to decide if I wanted to spring for the type-s--and so it begins for you... :D
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Puddsy on Fri, 06 June 2014, 13:24:44
My favorite Topre is 45g. Smooth af.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Fri, 06 June 2014, 13:29:29
Luckily it only took me 1 MX board before I took the topre plunge and have no regrets whatsoever.

I do however prefer MX reds for gaming but I'm an FPS gamer primarily.

It took me two months to decide if I wanted to spring for the type-s--and so it begins for you... :D

I am still on the fence if I should get the HHKB and mod it myself or if I should get the Type-S. I really like the black case of a regular HHKB with white and grey caps. More than the white body. God, why couldn't they just make a damn black Type-S!
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: exitfire401 on Fri, 06 June 2014, 13:31:36
Luckily it only took me 1 MX board before I took the topre plunge and have no regrets whatsoever.

I do however prefer MX reds for gaming but I'm an FPS gamer primarily.

It took me two months to decide if I wanted to spring for the type-s--and so it begins for you... :D

Same here. I started with a ducky shine 2, then got my Realforce. I'm now down to my Race 2, my Realforce, and my HHKB. These three boards aren't going anywhere. However, the HHKB is going to get 55g modded soon enough.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Fri, 06 June 2014, 13:36:16
Luckily it only took me 1 MX board before I took the topre plunge and have no regrets whatsoever.

I do however prefer MX reds for gaming but I'm an FPS gamer primarily.

It took me two months to decide if I wanted to spring for the type-s--and so it begins for you... :D

Same here. I started with a ducky shine 2, then got my Realforce. I'm now down to my Race 2, my Realforce, and my HHKB. These three boards aren't going anywhere. However, the HHKB is going to get 55g modded soon enough.

I am debating maybe I should get both and HHKB Type-S white and a black HHKB and switch the cases, then sell the HHKB with a white case... hmmm
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: iAmAhab on Fri, 06 June 2014, 13:37:02
Got a hhkb waiting for me at the local post office. Can't pick it up before after work tomorrow. Anxious to try out topre for the first time.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: exitfire401 on Fri, 06 June 2014, 13:41:57
Luckily it only took me 1 MX board before I took the topre plunge and have no regrets whatsoever.

I do however prefer MX reds for gaming but I'm an FPS gamer primarily.

It took me two months to decide if I wanted to spring for the type-s--and so it begins for you... :D

Same here. I started with a ducky shine 2, then got my Realforce. I'm now down to my Race 2, my Realforce, and my HHKB. These three boards aren't going anywhere. However, the HHKB is going to get 55g modded soon enough.

I am debating maybe I should get both and HHKB Type-S white and a black HHKB and switch the cases, then sell the HHKB with a white case... hmmm

I didn't think I'd like the white case on the type-s for a long time, which is why I put off buying it for so long. The white has really grown on me the last few days though.

Got a hhkb waiting for me at the local post office. Can't pick it up before after work tomorrow. Anxious to try out topre for the first time.

Nice pick up! I love the layout so far, and highly suggest the board from my experience. My only complaint is that there's no 55g from the factory.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: UnlikeAny on Fri, 06 June 2014, 13:44:51
My first mechanical keyboard is/was HHKB Pro 2 (don't judge). It feels very good to type on and I'm a happy hacker with it, but I REALLY want to try cherry mx blues. Especially on Poker II.

My HHKB is cleaned and packed. I'm counting my posts until I will be able to post in classifieds. Gonna sell it for low, I think, as I don't want to wait too long.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: osi on Fri, 06 June 2014, 13:51:46

I am debating maybe I should get both and HHKB Type-S white and a black HHKB and switch the cases, then sell the HHKB with a white case... hmmm


Had all these quandaries too. Eventually I'll buy a pro 2 black for the case swap. I'll just keep an eye on classifieds when the time comes.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: dante on Fri, 06 June 2014, 13:53:31
My favorite Topre is 45g. Smooth af.

In terms of feel and sound the 660C destroys the RealForce.  If there was an engineer involved that tweaked the materials in favor of acoustics they deserve a pat on the back.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Puddsy on Fri, 06 June 2014, 13:56:35
My favorite Topre is 45g. Smooth af.

In terms of feel and sound the 660C destroys the RealForce.  If there was an engineer involved that tweaked the materials in favor of acoustics they deserve a pat on the back.

Nah man, my realforce sounds exactly like rain. It's awesome.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Fri, 06 June 2014, 14:19:35
Got a hhkb waiting for me at the local post office. Can't pick it up before after work tomorrow. Anxious to try out topre for the first time.

Nice! You will love it, trust me!

Luckily it only took me 1 MX board before I took the topre plunge and have no regrets whatsoever.

I do however prefer MX reds for gaming but I'm an FPS gamer primarily.

It took me two months to decide if I wanted to spring for the type-s--and so it begins for you... :D

Same here. I started with a ducky shine 2, then got my Realforce. I'm now down to my Race 2, my Realforce, and my HHKB. These three boards aren't going anywhere. However, the HHKB is going to get 55g modded soon enough.

I am debating maybe I should get both and HHKB Type-S white and a black HHKB and switch the cases, then sell the HHKB with a white case... hmmm

I didn't think I'd like the white case on the type-s for a long time, which is why I put off buying it for so long. The white has really grown on me the last few days though.

Got a hhkb waiting for me at the local post office. Can't pick it up before after work tomorrow. Anxious to try out topre for the first time.

Nice pick up! I love the layout so far, and highly suggest the board from my experience. My only complaint is that there's no 55g from the factory.

This makes me feel better about my purchase. Now if only I can decide to get it WITH legends are WITHOUT. :(

My favorite Topre is 45g. Smooth af.

In terms of feel and sound the 660C destroys the RealForce.  If there was an engineer involved that tweaked the materials in favor of acoustics they deserve a pat on the back.

I haven't tried a RF, but I have to say that the sound of the FC660C is quite beautiful. The reason I am getting a Type-S is because I don't like the reduction in travel from modding it, but I doubt I will sell this. I will probably take out the ironed landing pads and switch to this board occasionally and test the difference in actuation between this board and the Type-S. The keycaps on this are also quite nice (I have the grey body and grey geys) so I might see how they look on the HHKB and vice versa.


I am debating maybe I should get both and HHKB Type-S white and a black HHKB and switch the cases, then sell the HHKB with a white case... hmmm


Had all these quandaries too. Eventually I'll buy a pro 2 black for the case swap. I'll just keep an eye on classifieds when the time comes.


I am with you on this for sure.

My first mechanical keyboard is/was HHKB Pro 2 (don't judge). It feels very good to type on and I'm a happy hacker with it, but I REALLY want to try cherry mx blues. Especially on Poker II.

My HHKB is cleaned and packed. I'm counting my posts until I will be able to post in classifieds. Gonna sell it for low, I think, as I don't want to wait too long.

Any idea on a price? Maybe I will buy it from you just for the case.
 
I have the same plans with my keyboards as well. I still love blues albeit, I like Topre more, so my keyboard setup will likely be my two Topres (LC660C unsilenced and an HHKB Type-S) with a Poker II that I ordered on Massdrop. I also got the acrylic case and the Poker I ordered has blue LED so I am eager to customize that board.

After moving to 60% boards, I don't think I will ever go back to TKL.

Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: AKIMbO on Fri, 06 June 2014, 14:25:21
Haha, yeah. I am eager to try the Type-S and see how much different it is from an at home modded Topre. The main thing I don't like about the mod is the reduction in key travel. If a Type-S fixes this, I will be one happy enthusiast.

The ONLY difference between a stock HHKB and the HHKB Type S is the foam silencing ring. The switch isn't redesigned to alleviate the reduction in travel the silencing ring causes.  There may be a lesser reduction in travel than the silencing mod you attempted, but the Type S has a slight reduction in travel compared to a stock HHKB.

The stock silenced Realforce is the ONLY topre board with a redesigned plunger to alleviate the reduction in travel caused by the foam silencing rings.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: exitfire401 on Fri, 06 June 2014, 14:25:58


This makes me feel better about my purchase. Now if only I can decide to get it WITH legends are WITHOUT. :(


I got mine with legends to learn the fn layer, but if you print a picture of the fn layer, you'll be fine without them (assuming you already touch type on qwerty)
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Fri, 06 June 2014, 14:33:01
Haha, yeah. I am eager to try the Type-S and see how much different it is from an at home modded Topre. The main thing I don't like about the mod is the reduction in key travel. If a Type-S fixes this, I will be one happy enthusiast.

The ONLY difference between a stock HHKB and the HHKB Type S is the foam silencing ring. The switch isn't redesigned to alleviate the reduction in travel the silencing ring causes.  There may be a lesser reduction in travel than the silencing mod you attempted, but the Type S has a slight reduction in travel compared to a stock HHKB.

The stock silenced Realforce is the ONLY topre board with a redesigned plunger to alleviate the reduction in travel caused by the foam silencing rings.

Yeah, I am aware of this. This is a big reason I contemplated buying an HHKB and a RF silent to do this mod while in the process making the board a 55g which would be nice to have along side my already 45g uniform LC660C. However, that route is going to cost me quite a bit more of money instead of just using a proxy to get the HHKB Type-S and a spare set of keys. I still can't believe I am getting an HHKB Type-S, a spare set of blank black keys and the Christmas bonus for $350 USD.



This makes me feel better about my purchase. Now if only I can decide to get it WITH legends are WITHOUT. :(


I got mine with legends to learn the fn layer, but if you print a picture of the fn layer, you'll be fine without them (assuming you already touch type on qwerty)


Yeah, I am pretty certain I will go with blanks and keep a copy of the keyboard's layout on my desk for reference. I do like the legends on the HHKB, but the legends with the side print is a little meh to me. I am getting a spare set of black blanks so my goal is to get the keyboard to look something like this to help me with the FN layer: (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=40456.0;attach=13769;image)

However, since I am able to get the Christmas bonus for so cheap on Amazon/jp, my escape key will be blue and my CTRL key red. I'll likely keep my orange clack on my LC660C unless it goes cleanly with the Type-S color arrangement I will have. I wouldn't mind getting a new novelty key to celebrate my induction into the HHKB family.  :p
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: osi on Fri, 06 June 2014, 14:38:35
For what it's worth, what tipped the scales for me on the pro2 vs the type-s :

From this thread - http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34972.0

The original pictures do not display for me in that thread, otherwise I would link the original. o2dazone was OP.

LEFT - RIGHT
pro2 - type-s

[attachimg=1]

Also the fact that the pro2 will never be a type-s. Of course the pro2 can be modded with o-rings or ironed down pads to try to replicate the type-s. I can't speak from experience on that but what I've gathered from other reviews is that the feel and upstroke dampening can be quite similar. Mixed reviews on whether the reduced key travel is detectable--too many unknowns here.

My heart was set on the pro2 and while stacking the cash up for it, I just thought, why not just wait and save a little more for the s? And that's what I did. Plus I would have never been satisfied by NOT having the type-s. Getting that thought out of my mind was worth the premium.

Good luck bro!

Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Fri, 06 June 2014, 14:51:30
For what it's worth, what tipped the scales for me on the pro2 vs the type-s :

From this thread - http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34972.0

The original pictures do not display for me in that thread, otherwise I would link the original. o2dazone was OP.

LEFT - RIGHT
pro2 - type-s

(Attachment Link)

Also the fact that the pro2 will never be a type-s. Of course the pro2 can be modded with o-rings or ironed down pads to try to replicate the type-s. I can't speak from experience on that but what I've gathered from other reviews is that the feel and upstroke dampening can be quite similar. Mixed reviews on whether the reduced key travel is detectable--too many unknowns here.

My heart was set on the pro2 and while stacking the cash up for it, I just thought, why not just wait and save a little more for the s? And that's what I did. Plus I would have never been satisfied by NOT having the type-s. Getting that thought out of my mind was worth the premium.

Good luck bro!

LMAO, dude we think EXACTLY alike. This is why I HAD to start obsessing over a Type-S. I knew that unless I tried both an HHKB and a factory silenced board, I would forever go crazy over the fact that I don't know what it feels like and the actuation difference.

I just completed my purchase. HHKB Type-S blank with blank black replacements and the Christmas bundle (light blue escape key and red row 3 CTRL key). $360 USD. Not a bad deal if you ask me.

Worst case scenario I can always mod it later to a 55G if I want and change the case and I will always have the FACTORY dampeners to put on those new purple plungers if I ever decide to do so.

Another thing I'd like to mention that I didn't see anyone say when discussing the Topre mods. It is something I recently realized that is now driving me crazy. The keys have more wobble now. If I place my finger over the key and move slightly the key does not feel as tight as it did when I first received the board. I didn't silence the stabilized keys because I didn't want to go through all the trouble if I didn't like it so I decided to take the key off the modded ones and a stabilizer key and realized the plunger is more stiff on the ones I didn't mod. I can ONLY attribute this to taking the plungers out. In order to do so I had to stick my fingernail where the small plastic piece is that holds the plunger in the switch housing and push it through the housing. After I did this to the keys I noticed the plunger were much easier to take out of the housings I had previously removed the plungers from.

This is another thing I want to take note of. The silencing on the Type-S is factory so there should be less wobble on the keys.

Maybe I have sensitive fingers or I am just a perfectionist who stares at his keyboards, but it is something I think people should be aware of before modding their Topre board.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: UnlikeAny on Fri, 06 June 2014, 14:52:01
--

Any idea on a price? Maybe I will buy it from you just for the case.

--

I was thinking about 120GBP (201.62USD), but I'm not to certain about shipping anywhere else than Europe.

-

So the only difference between these two is that ring? Or I'm not seeing something?

Moderation note: no sales are allowed outside of the Marketplace section as per the ToS.  Please do not discuss direct sales until you can post them properly in the Marketplace.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Fri, 06 June 2014, 14:57:55
--

Any idea on a price? Maybe I will buy it from you just for the case.

--

I was thinking about 120GBP (201.62USD), but I'm not to certain about shipping anywhere else than Europe.

-

So the only difference between these two is that ring? Or I'm not seeing something?

Yeah, the only difference is that silencing ring. But the thing is, people try to replicate that ring by cutting pieces of rubber or using dental bands and there are flaws with both those methods. Cutting the rubber foam is A LOT OF WORK and usually results in a ring that is slightly thicker than that. With the dental band mod, the bands are made of harder rubber than those foam rings so it doesn't give the same silencing. It is close, but just not the same. The bands are also said to be a tad too thick and do affect the actuation quite a bit. I know "Glissant" used 1/8" Light dental bands instead of the 3/16" most use and he reported no noticeable travel distance difference.

There is another method which requires you to iron landing pads from EK. This is the method I tried and which brought me to a Type-S because I didn't like the difference in travel. One of my favorite thing about Topre is how the keys bounce back quite nicely and there is no way to actuate a key without completely pressing it unlike a Cherry switch. With the silencing mod it took part of that away from me. It made the switches feel borderline linear to me.

All of this does not include the fact that I noticed modding yourself leaves little to be desired about the stiffness of the keys like I mentioned in the earlier post.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: UnlikeAny on Fri, 06 June 2014, 15:05:25
-

Seems fair enough. A lot of people think that type-s is not worth it and if you want silenced, you can mod it yourself cheaply. But small differences like that can be a line between an excellent keyboard and a perfect one. We are keyboard enthusiasts after all.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: AKIMbO on Fri, 06 June 2014, 15:14:23
--

Any idea on a price? Maybe I will buy it from you just for the case.

--

I was thinking about 120GBP (201.62USD), but I'm not to certain about shipping anywhere else than Europe.

-

So the only difference between these two is that ring? Or I'm not seeing something?

Yeah, the only difference is that silencing ring. But the thing is, people try to replicate that ring by cutting pieces of rubber or using dental bands and there are flaws with both those methods. Cutting the rubber foam is A LOT OF WORK and usually results in a ring that is slightly thicker than that. With the dental band mod, the bands are made of harder rubber than those foam rings so it doesn't give the same silencing. It is close, but just not the same. The bands are also said to be a tad too thick and do affect the actuation quite a bit. I know "Glissant" used 1/8" Light dental bands instead of the 3/16" most use and he reported no noticeable travel distance difference.

There is another method which requires you to iron landing pads from EK. This is the method I tried and which brought me to a Type-S because I didn't like the difference in travel. One of my favorite thing about Topre is how the keys bounce back quite nicely and there is no way to actuate a key without completely pressing it unlike a Cherry switch. With the silencing mod it took part of that away from me. It made the switches feel borderline linear to me.

All of this does not include the fact that I noticed modding yourself leaves little to be desired about the stiffness of the keys like I mentioned in the earlier post.

I can speak to the o2 mod.  I did it to my stock HHKB and ended up reversing it as it felt inconsistent when compared next to a stock type-s.  The silencing was much more effective than stock silencing though.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: osi on Fri, 06 June 2014, 15:48:43
Congrats on the purchase. I think you will be pleasantly satisfied.

=]
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Fri, 06 June 2014, 15:52:49
--

Any idea on a price? Maybe I will buy it from you just for the case.

--

I was thinking about 120GBP (201.62USD), but I'm not to certain about shipping anywhere else than Europe.

-

So the only difference between these two is that ring? Or I'm not seeing something?

Yeah, the only difference is that silencing ring. But the thing is, people try to replicate that ring by cutting pieces of rubber or using dental bands and there are flaws with both those methods. Cutting the rubber foam is A LOT OF WORK and usually results in a ring that is slightly thicker than that. With the dental band mod, the bands are made of harder rubber than those foam rings so it doesn't give the same silencing. It is close, but just not the same. The bands are also said to be a tad too thick and do affect the actuation quite a bit. I know "Glissant" used 1/8" Light dental bands instead of the 3/16" most use and he reported no noticeable travel distance difference.

There is another method which requires you to iron landing pads from EK. This is the method I tried and which brought me to a Type-S because I didn't like the difference in travel. One of my favorite thing about Topre is how the keys bounce back quite nicely and there is no way to actuate a key without completely pressing it unlike a Cherry switch. With the silencing mod it took part of that away from me. It made the switches feel borderline linear to me.

All of this does not include the fact that I noticed modding yourself leaves little to be desired about the stiffness of the keys like I mentioned in the earlier post.

I can speak to the o2 mod.  I did it to my stock HHKB and ended up reversing it as it felt inconsistent when compared next to a stock type-s.  The silencing was much more effective than stock silencing though.

Interesting indeed. So the dampening was more effective on the mod but the Type-S gave less travel distance reduction and more uniformity?
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: AKIMbO on Fri, 06 June 2014, 16:38:29
--

Any idea on a price? Maybe I will buy it from you just for the case.

--

I was thinking about 120GBP (201.62USD), but I'm not to certain about shipping anywhere else than Europe.

-

So the only difference between these two is that ring? Or I'm not seeing something?

Yeah, the only difference is that silencing ring. But the thing is, people try to replicate that ring by cutting pieces of rubber or using dental bands and there are flaws with both those methods. Cutting the rubber foam is A LOT OF WORK and usually results in a ring that is slightly thicker than that. With the dental band mod, the bands are made of harder rubber than those foam rings so it doesn't give the same silencing. It is close, but just not the same. The bands are also said to be a tad too thick and do affect the actuation quite a bit. I know "Glissant" used 1/8" Light dental bands instead of the 3/16" most use and he reported no noticeable travel distance difference.

There is another method which requires you to iron landing pads from EK. This is the method I tried and which brought me to a Type-S because I didn't like the difference in travel. One of my favorite thing about Topre is how the keys bounce back quite nicely and there is no way to actuate a key without completely pressing it unlike a Cherry switch. With the silencing mod it took part of that away from me. It made the switches feel borderline linear to me.

All of this does not include the fact that I noticed modding yourself leaves little to be desired about the stiffness of the keys like I mentioned in the earlier post.

I can speak to the o2 mod.  I did it to my stock HHKB and ended up reversing it as it felt inconsistent when compared next to a stock type-s.  The silencing was much more effective than stock silencing though.

Interesting indeed. So the dampening was more effective on the mod but the Type-S gave less travel distance reduction and more uniformity?

Yes, exactly. The rubber/silicon used in the o2 mod was very very effective at muffling the sound.  The Type S has more of a resonance that I believed the rubber from o2's mod killed.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Justintoxicated on Fri, 06 June 2014, 16:48:01
I'd love to try one of these options but I use the F keys way too much to want to have to kit a function key as I step through code in my debuggers. and 4 keys for a crlt-alt insert would be annoying as well when working with VM's :(
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Fri, 06 June 2014, 17:21:13
--

Any idea on a price? Maybe I will buy it from you just for the case.

--

I was thinking about 120GBP (201.62USD), but I'm not to certain about shipping anywhere else than Europe.

-

So the only difference between these two is that ring? Or I'm not seeing something?

Yeah, the only difference is that silencing ring. But the thing is, people try to replicate that ring by cutting pieces of rubber or using dental bands and there are flaws with both those methods. Cutting the rubber foam is A LOT OF WORK and usually results in a ring that is slightly thicker than that. With the dental band mod, the bands are made of harder rubber than those foam rings so it doesn't give the same silencing. It is close, but just not the same. The bands are also said to be a tad too thick and do affect the actuation quite a bit. I know "Glissant" used 1/8" Light dental bands instead of the 3/16" most use and he reported no noticeable travel distance difference.

There is another method which requires you to iron landing pads from EK. This is the method I tried and which brought me to a Type-S because I didn't like the difference in travel. One of my favorite thing about Topre is how the keys bounce back quite nicely and there is no way to actuate a key without completely pressing it unlike a Cherry switch. With the silencing mod it took part of that away from me. It made the switches feel borderline linear to me.

All of this does not include the fact that I noticed modding yourself leaves little to be desired about the stiffness of the keys like I mentioned in the earlier post.

I can speak to the o2 mod.  I did it to my stock HHKB and ended up reversing it as it felt inconsistent when compared next to a stock type-s.  The silencing was much more effective than stock silencing though.

Interesting indeed. So the dampening was more effective on the mod but the Type-S gave less travel distance reduction and more uniformity?

Yes, exactly. The rubber/silicon used in the o2 mod was very very effective at muffling the sound.  The Type S has more of a resonance that I believed the rubber from o2's mod killed.

I know exactly what you mean. When I listen to the Type-S via videos, it is almost like it muffles the sound JUST ENOUGH to where it makes a MORE SATISFYING up stoke sound as opposed to completely silencing it.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: rowdy on Sat, 07 June 2014, 02:46:36
Why is this the dark side, when you have seen the light?
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: daerid on Sat, 07 June 2014, 09:40:09
I think I might buy a RF Type-S and swap out the variable domes with my 55g domes. I could deal with the dental band mod on the RF, key travel was too short.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 07 June 2014, 09:54:23
Topre is NOT the dark-side..   If anything... anyone who uses Topre is merely spinning-in-place..

Since most of us started on Rubber domes.. using topre is using rubber domes... w/ marginally better sliders..


So... if you want Dark-side...  Cherry - MX is where it's at... Germans made it.(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/whaaat3-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862525)
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: daerid on Sat, 07 June 2014, 10:01:59
I'll agree that Cherry is the dark side :-X
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: cmadrid on Sat, 07 June 2014, 13:53:43
Does that make Alps the twilight zone? lol
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Sat, 07 June 2014, 15:07:35
Lol, I love my Cherry MX and pretty much anything German made. But I think I will stick with my Poker II in Blues and everything else Topre.

I just feel like the tactile feel is better than any tactile I have felt in any MX board. Although they still use rubber domes, I can only base my opinion on what I feel. The things can run on imaginary fairy dust, as long as the feel satisfies me, there really is no debate. Personally, I feel that should be the case with anyone.

The reason I fell in love with mechanical keyboards was the fact that they felt better than any rubber dome keyboard I ever tried. Not simply because they are "mechanical". If someone feels like scissor switches are the end all switch for them, then so be it.

At the end of the day, it is all about what you like. You're the one who is going to be using the keyboard.

That's my opinion at least. I respect any one's opinion on what the best switch is for them. It's subjective and I don't "disagree" with anyone who feels like their Cherry MX board is better than a Topre. I am actually happy they found the board/switch for them because I know how great the feeling is of enjoying every single press of a key.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Latin00032 on Sat, 07 June 2014, 15:23:24
I thought the domes create the weight. Not the springs.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Sat, 07 June 2014, 15:38:26
I think I might buy a RF Type-S and swap out the variable domes with my 55g domes. I could deal with the dental band mod on the RF, key travel was too short.

I'm actually thinking of doing this down the road along with getting an HHKB for the black case to swap and sell. I feel like having the purple plungers with the type-S pre-cut dampeners will make for a nice mod I don't think anyone has done yet.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Smasher816 on Sat, 07 June 2014, 17:40:33
The reason I fell in love with mechanical keyboards was the fact that they felt better than any rubber dome keyboard I ever tried. Not simply because they are "mechanical". If someone feels like scissor switches are the end all switch for them, then so be it.

At the end of the day, it is all about what you like. You're the one who is going to be using the keyboard.

That's my opinion at least. I respect any one's opinion on what the best switch is for them. It's subjective and I don't "disagree" with anyone who feels like their Cherry MX board is better than a Topre. I am actually happy they found the board/switch for them because I know how great the feeling is of enjoying every single press of a key.

Agreed. People can argue that "mechanical" keyboards are objectively better for some reason (ex: midstroke activation and the ability to not bottom out) but at the end of the day GH shows that keyboards really are a subjective thing. If someone prefers the feel of a Topre keyboard why does it matter that it might technically be a rubber dome keyboard. People find what they like and use it :)
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Sat, 07 June 2014, 17:45:10
The reason I fell in love with mechanical keyboards was the fact that they felt better than any rubber dome keyboard I ever tried. Not simply because they are "mechanical". If someone feels like scissor switches are the end all switch for them, then so be it.

At the end of the day, it is all about what you like. You're the one who is going to be using the keyboard.

That's my opinion at least. I respect any one's opinion on what the best switch is for them. It's subjective and I don't "disagree" with anyone who feels like their Cherry MX board is better than a Topre. I am actually happy they found the board/switch for them because I know how great the feeling is of enjoying every single press of a key.

Agreed. People can argue that "mechanical" keyboards are objectively better for some reason (ex: midstroke activation and the ability to not bottom out) but at the end of the day GH shows that keyboards really are a subjective thing. If someone prefers the feel of a Topre keyboard why does it matter that it might technically be a rubber dome keyboard. People find what they like and use it :)

Yup. It is actually funny you mentioned the ability to actuate without fully pressing the key. The opposite is actually what I like most about Topre. The fact that there is no room to push down on a key without completing the tactile bump. The fact that there is no 'in between' on a Topre key stroke makes the keys feel more crisp in my opinion. It also adds to the bounce back and the feel of moving my fingers from one key to another.

One last thing which is for certain, I have way less typos on my Topre than I did on my Cherry boards. Even the stiff MX Clears I had did not result in such precise strokes.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Smasher816 on Sat, 07 June 2014, 23:19:09
One last thing which is for certain, I have way less typos on my Topre than I did on my Cherry boards. Even the stiff MX Clears I had did not result in such precise strokes.

Yeah, I made a lot less typos after switching to Topre from browns. Even if they are rated at the same 45g "weight" the browns feel like they are much lighter and easier to accidently press. If I ever decide to pick up another MX board for work or something I think clears would be my choice.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 07 June 2014, 23:24:58
Yeah, I made a lot less typos after switching to Topre from browns. Even if they are rated at the same 45g "weight" the browns feel like they are much lighter and easier to accidently press.

True the Thorpie Switch is extremely good at actuation compared to the MX system.  I make less mistyped words with a REALFORCE than with any Filco, Leopold or WASD keyboard.  In fact most X-Logitech users seem to love HHKB or Realforce keyboards because they remind them of what they have used for the past few years, hence the thorpie switch wins new supporters everyday  :thumb: .
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Smasher816 on Sun, 08 June 2014, 00:00:54
Yeah, I made a lot less typos after switching to Topre from browns. Even if they are rated at the same 45g "weight" the browns feel like they are much lighter and easier to accidently press.

In fact most X-Logitech users seem to love HHKB or Realforce keyboards because they remind them of what they have used for the past few years, hence the thorpie switch wins new supporters everyday  :thumb: .

Well I did come from a logitech G15. I would never go back to it though. I have to say, there are differences between the different domes. The random ones at school feel nothing like my HHKB. I really don't know how to describe the difference, I guess one seems more "cripsp" instead of mushy.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: sleepy916 on Sun, 08 June 2014, 00:52:04
I'm one of the few that tried Topre with a HHKB Type S and eventually went back to BS. I did not convert even though it was nice.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Smasher816 on Sun, 08 June 2014, 13:36:02
I would love to the a BS board sometime (pretty sure I used my dads as a small kid). The tactility seems like it would be great but I don't know if I could get used to the noise - especially if I want to bring it to work or something like that. I just love the sound of my Type S...
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: TacticalCoder on Sun, 08 June 2014, 14:02:20
I have a few keyboards (buckling springs, Cherry MXes, White ALPS, Topre, ...) and after many years using buckling springs (IBM Model M) I eventually bought a HHKB Pro 2 (two years ago or so I think). For me it's the best switch I ever used. My (professional) life requires quite some typing (software dev and, in a previous life, books author) and Topre switch are close to perfect IMHO.

It took me some time to get used to Topre because when I'm not typing I like to actually rest my fingers on the keyboard (in the home position). I used to trigger a few keys by mistake while "resting" at first: I think 'd' and 'k' but I'm not too sure anymore... Took me a few weeks / months to get rid of that issue  :o

I now moved the HHKB Pro 2 to the living room (hooked to a Mac Mini which is used to play series / movies and to listen to music) and I rarely use it but it's convenient that it is so tiny. For my main keyboard I bought an HHKB JP (the japanese model)... For the smaller space bar and the additional modifiers.

Now of course my quest ain't over: my "dream" would be a split ergo keyboard using Topre switches. Something like the Mark 12 or Mark 13 but with Topre switches (I think the "thumb keys" on the Mark 12 / Mark 13 just make so much more sense than a regular Ergodox but YMMV).

Welcome to the club!
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: JinDesu on Wed, 11 June 2014, 10:18:14
Yeah, I made a lot less typos after switching to Topre from browns. Even if they are rated at the same 45g "weight" the browns feel like they are much lighter and easier to accidently press.

True the Thorpie Switch is extremely good at actuation compared to the MX system.  I make less mistyped words with a REALFORCE than with any Filco, Leopold or WASD keyboard.  In fact most X-Logitech users seem to love HHKB or Realforce keyboards because they remind them of what they have used for the past few years, hence the thorpie switch wins new supporters everyday  :thumb: .

My RF 101 has variable weights, and while the 45g keys have great actuation feel (and I assume the 55g keys in other RF keyboards would be even better), the 35g keys like Q, A, P activate so easily that I often have my left hand resting on Q and it would start typing qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq without even thinking. My Q is probably on the lower end of weight tolerance too. Just a warning to people that the 35g keys activate really easily.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: redskull on Wed, 11 June 2014, 13:23:41
one of us! one of us!  ;D

that said, i'm loving my 55g hhkb pro2. i did the o-ring silencing treatment, it was quiet but the key travel was reduced and i didn't like it. took the o-rings off and just enjoyed the noise they make. 55g is where it is bro and now for me, cherry mx switches are just for collection purposes only.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Wed, 11 June 2014, 15:28:32
one of us! one of us!  ;D

that said, i'm loving my 55g hhkb pro2. i did the o-ring silencing treatment, it was quiet but the key travel was reduced and i didn't like it. took the o-rings off and just enjoyed the noise they make. 55g is where it is bro and now for me, cherry mx switches are just for collection purposes only.

How did you mod it to 55g? You just used the rubber domes from a RF?
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Smasher816 on Wed, 11 June 2014, 22:22:23
one of us! one of us!  ;D

that said, i'm loving my 55g hhkb pro2. i did the o-ring silencing treatment, it was quiet but the key travel was reduced and i didn't like it. took the o-rings off and just enjoyed the noise they make. 55g is where it is bro and now for me, cherry mx switches are just for collection purposes only.

How did you mod it to 55g? You just used the rubber domes from a RF?

AFAIK, that is the only way to do it.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: redskull on Wed, 11 June 2014, 22:27:39
one of us! one of us!  ;D

that said, i'm loving my 55g hhkb pro2. i did the o-ring silencing treatment, it was quiet but the key travel was reduced and i didn't like it. took the o-rings off and just enjoyed the noise they make. 55g is where it is bro and now for me, cherry mx switches are just for collection purposes only.

How did you mod it to 55g? You just used the rubber domes from a RF?
bought a set of 55g domes from a nice fellow geekhacker. you can buy the RF 55g as a donor board or if you wanna save some cash you can try looking in the classifieds. they don't come up often but there are some for sale from time to time.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: fuzzybaffy on Wed, 11 June 2014, 22:55:25
In the same boat as the OP... kind of. I'm still in the deciding phase between the Topre that I've owned a couple of years, and the Filco with MX Browns that I've had the past few months.

But lately I have been kind of missing the Topre. The MX Browns are very, very easy to actuate, which I find is their advantage over Topre switches, but Topre switches are just so much more smoother and more solid feeling. That smoothness is hard to get over or forget. I make a lot less typos on the Topre, as a few have mentioned, as well.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Thu, 12 June 2014, 09:29:32
one of us! one of us!  ;D

that said, i'm loving my 55g hhkb pro2. i did the o-ring silencing treatment, it was quiet but the key travel was reduced and i didn't like it. took the o-rings off and just enjoyed the noise they make. 55g is where it is bro and now for me, cherry mx switches are just for collection purposes only.

How did you mod it to 55g? You just used the rubber domes from a RF?
bought a set of 55g domes from a nice fellow geekhacker. you can buy the RF 55g as a donor board or if you wanna save some cash you can try looking in the classifieds. they don't come up often but there are some for sale from time to time.

Nice, I can see why people would want to do this.

I got my Type-S today (Tenso is really fast) but I didn't get a chance to really type with it because I had to head to work.

However, I pressed the keys and they definitely feel lighter than my FC660C. Also, I must have super sensitive fingers because I definitely feel a reduction in travel on the Type-S vs my Leopold. Like the mod I did on the FC, the keys lose their tactility a bit almost to the point where the switch feels linear.

Again, I didn't get nearly enough time to play with it so I'll have to use it for a day. But at first touch, I am favoring my Leopold. With no plate as well, the HHKB feels less solid as well. I will say that there is absolutely no key wiggle though where the FC660C has some play.

Nevertheless, since I am selling my MX boards I'll likely keep both. Especially since the HHKB feels like a lighter switch and silenced.

I'll report here tonight. I plan on also making a comparison video for my channel so feel free to stay tuned for that.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: redskull on Thu, 12 June 2014, 10:29:30
one of us! one of us!  ;D

that said, i'm loving my 55g hhkb pro2. i did the o-ring silencing treatment, it was quiet but the key travel was reduced and i didn't like it. took the o-rings off and just enjoyed the noise they make. 55g is where it is bro and now for me, cherry mx switches are just for collection purposes only.

How did you mod it to 55g? You just used the rubber domes from a RF?
bought a set of 55g domes from a nice fellow geekhacker. you can buy the RF 55g as a donor board or if you wanna save some cash you can try looking in the classifieds. they don't come up often but there are some for sale from time to time.

Nice, I can see why people would want to do this.

I got my Type-S today (Tenso is really fast) but I didn't get a chance to really type with it because I had to head to work.

However, I pressed the keys and they definitely feel lighter than my FC660C. Also, I must have super sensitive fingers because I definitely feel a reduction in travel on the Type-S vs my Leopold. Like the mod I did on the FC, the keys lose their tactility a bit almost to the point where the switch feels linear.

Again, I didn't get nearly enough time to play with it so I'll have to use it for a day. But at first touch, I am favoring my Leopold. With no plate as well, the HHKB feels less solid as well. I will say that there is absolutely no key wiggle though where the FC660C has some play.

Nevertheless, since I am selling my MX boards I'll likely keep both. Especially since the HHKB feels like a lighter switch and silenced.

I'll report here tonight. I plan on also making a comparison video for my channel so feel free to stay tuned for that.
i can only imagine that a type-s with 55g domes will be heaven on earth. use the hhkb daily for a few weeks to break the rubbers in, after that they should feel a bit better.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: CaptLock on Thu, 12 June 2014, 10:51:16
WIsh there was a Topre switch tester.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Thu, 12 June 2014, 11:04:33
one of us! one of us!  ;D

that said, i'm loving my 55g hhkb pro2. i did the o-ring silencing treatment, it was quiet but the key travel was reduced and i didn't like it. took the o-rings off and just enjoyed the noise they make. 55g is where it is bro and now for me, cherry mx switches are just for collection purposes only.

How did you mod it to 55g? You just used the rubber domes from a RF?
bought a set of 55g domes from a nice fellow geekhacker. you can buy the RF 55g as a donor board or if you wanna save some cash you can try looking in the classifieds. they don't come up often but there are some for sale from time to time.

Nice, I can see why people would want to do this.

I got my Type-S today (Tenso is really fast) but I didn't get a chance to really type with it because I had to head to work.

However, I pressed the keys and they definitely feel lighter than my FC660C. Also, I must have super sensitive fingers because I definitely feel a reduction in travel on the Type-S vs my Leopold. Like the mod I did on the FC, the keys lose their tactility a bit almost to the point where the switch feels linear.

Again, I didn't get nearly enough time to play with it so I'll have to use it for a day. But at first touch, I am favoring my Leopold. With no plate as well, the HHKB feels less solid as well. I will say that there is absolutely no key wiggle though where the FC660C has some play.

Nevertheless, since I am selling my MX boards I'll likely keep both. Especially since the HHKB feels like a lighter switch and silenced.

I'll report here tonight. I plan on also making a comparison video for my channel so feel free to stay tuned for that.
i can only imagine that a type-s with 55g domes will be heaven on earth. use the hhkb daily for a few weeks to break the rubbers in, after that they should feel a bit better.

Agreed. Id also like the purple stems for the increase in height with the dampeners.

However, as it stands I think I'd rather mod out the Leopold due to the heft and solidity of it. But I will see. Like you said, I still want to break in the HHKB and spend a few days with it. I remember not being super sure about Topre when I got my Leopold until I spent some quality time with it.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Kmynis on Thu, 12 June 2014, 16:56:12
I am pretty sure that this breaking in exists. I bought my hhkb type-s second hand(seller told it was used for 3 weeks) and the numrow and alt keys are more "chirpy". I can only assume they were used less then the letter keys and were not broken in.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Thu, 12 June 2014, 20:28:22
I got the Type-S today!

At first, I wasn't too crazy about it but that was before I used it. I had to go to work so I didn't get a chance to play with it until I got home.

I will say it is much different than my Leopold. The switches feel lighter too. If this is true 45g then I would say the FC660C feels more like a 50g. Maybe even a 55g but I have not tried a 55g to make that comparison.

I will be posting a video review and comparison of both boards this weekend so if you want to check that out, subscribe to the channel in my signature!  :thumb:

In the meantime, here is some eye candy:

(http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg483/Crook1d/DSC_0115_zps8a196891.jpg)
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: osi on Thu, 12 June 2014, 20:38:49
So fresh so clean

Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Kayla on Thu, 12 June 2014, 20:44:05
I got the Type-S today!

At first, I wasn't too crazy about it but that was before I used it. I had to go to work so I didn't get a chance to play with it until I got home.

I will say it is much different than my Leopold. The switches feel lighter too. If this is true 45g then I would say the FC660C feels more like a 50g. Maybe even a 55g but I have not tried a 55g to make that comparison.

I will be posting a video review and comparison of both boards this weekend so if you want to check that out, subscribe to the channel in my signature!  :thumb:

In the meantime, here is some eye candy:

Show Image
(http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg483/Crook1d/DSC_0115_zps8a196891.jpg)


You have been talking about many other boards. Would you mind going over the others you have used (except the ones you sold of course) in a video series? I would subscribe for that.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: sakai4eva on Thu, 12 June 2014, 21:51:55
WIsh there was a Topre switch tester.

(http://www.mrbrown.com/.a/6a00d83451b52369e2019b03296647970d-550wi)
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Kayla on Thu, 12 June 2014, 22:00:20
Not everyone can spend that kind of money unfortunately. I'd love to try Topre but 100% of my disability income goes into my house and food, the only reason I have money to spend on hobbies is my birthday is coming up and saving little bits here and there. :p Topre switch tester sounds lovely. :3
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Justintoxicated on Thu, 12 June 2014, 22:25:34
I'm really trying to love this switch but I'm making a lot more mistakes on this FC660C than I make on my cherry brown board.  I feel the keys are a bit too stiff on topre and the switches are not as consistent throughout the keystrokes as are cherry browns.  It seems like they take a lot of force to get started and then less as you press down the key, kind of like a standard rubber dome.  I'm averaging about 1-2% higher error rate and about 6-10 wps slower in my typing test.

The keyboard FEELS great and sounds really nice to type on but I don't know that I will ever get as good typing on it as I can with a cherry brown board.  If you have to make longer key strokes then that is going to slow you down a little I think. I'm glad I didn't spring for the 55g weight board as the keys are already stiff enough to noticeably slow me down with the 45g weight.  On the Blackbird with cherry browns I can literally just lightly tap each key and not worry about it registering or not plus you get a little feedback unlike the topre.  Although topre switches register the keystroke closer to the top the extra force required makes it seem the opposite, and the need to bottom the keys in order to avoid making mistakes by hitting a key too lightly takes over.  This might also be due to the keys resistance throughout the keystroke becoming less as you press which almost forces you to bottom out when you type even though they do not need to be bottomed out to work.

I love the sound though, no question topre  sounds the best when you type on it and I think it is more fun to type on it as well, but I'm not thinking it is worth the cost over a good board with cherry switches.  Maybe it will grow on me. Is there any plans to make a lighter say all 35g topre board?  There's no way this thing requires the same force as standard cherries.  Maybe the rubber domes are too stiff or something, and only the springs are 45g weighted?

Anyone else's Delete key easier to press than the rest of the keys?  Do your shift keys stabilizers sound kinda clankey compared to the other long keys?  Well at least this board drops the volume a little and is something different to type on so that I won't get bored.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: sakai4eva on Thu, 12 June 2014, 23:33:23
Not everyone can spend that kind of money unfortunately. I'd love to try Topre but 100% of my disability income goes into my house and food, the only reason I have money to spend on hobbies is my birthday is coming up and saving little bits here and there. :p Topre switch tester sounds lovely. :3
Yeah, I get what you mean. I saved up a little for my Topre. It's a sound investment, although I've adjusted to 55g Clears, stock browns and Topre since I have to use all three from time to time. Topre and 55g clears are my favourite at the moment.

MKBs are an expensive hobby.

Since you're giving a serious answer; don't splurge unless you like quieter tactiles. I never liked linears (tried blacks - hated the stiffness and tried reds - "did I press that key?") so I knew from the start that I need tactile keys. MX Blues felt a little stiff for me (loved it for Dota though) but in the end I decided that it isn't really my thing (therefore eliminating MX Greens).

With my ergodox completed, I can safely say that 55g Clears are my choice of switches for MX (I tried 62g also, but didn't like it so I resigned them to the modifiers).

Topre... took two weeks to fully adjust to and enjoy. I got a realforce, btw, and not the leopold or typeheaven variants as I believe that the realforce has better build qualities. HHKB will never be an option for me because I hate 60%ish keyboards. Well, despite the ergo being a 60%ish layout thing...

I'm really trying to love this switch but I'm making a lot more mistakes on this FC660C than I make on my cherry brown board.  I feel the keys are a bit too stiff on topre and the switches are not as consistent throughout the keystrokes as are cherry browns.  It seems like they take a lot of force to get started and then less as you press down the key, kind of like a standard rubber dome.  I'm averaging about 1-2% higher error rate and about 6-10 wps slower in my typing test.

The keyboard FEELS great and sounds really nice to type on but I don't know that I will ever get as good typing on it as I can with a cherry brown board.  If you have to make longer key strokes then that is going to slow you down a little I think. I'm glad I didn't spring for the 55g weight board as the keys are already stiff enough to noticeably slow me down with the 45g weight.  On the Blackbird with cherry browns I can literally just lightly tap each key and not worry about it registering or not plus you get a little feedback unlike the topre.  Although topre switches register the keystroke closer to the top the extra force required makes it seem the opposite, and the need to bottom the keys in order to avoid making mistakes by hitting a key too lightly takes over.  This might also be due to the keys resistance throughout the keystroke becoming less as you press which almost forces you to bottom out when you type even though they do not need to be bottomed out to work.

I love the sound though, no question topre  sounds the best when you type on it and I think it is more fun to type on it as well, but I'm not thinking it is worth the cost over a good board with cherry switches.  Maybe it will grow on me. Is there any plans to make a lighter say all 35g topre board?  There's no way this thing requires the same force as standard cherries.  Maybe the rubber domes are too stiff or something, and only the springs are 45g weighted?

Anyone else's Delete key easier to press than the rest of the keys?  Do your shift keys stabilizers sound kinda clankey compared to the other long keys?  Well at least this board drops the volume a little and is something different to type on so that I won't get bored.

Not sure though. My realforce feels fine across the board. As for the keys, I still make the occasional mistake of depressing a key unintentionally. I guess it comes with the 45g territory. Of course, the fact that the key registers at the top instead of midway does affect that, but I think that's the signature of Topre.

Topres do take some time for it to sink in. It was 2 weeks before I fell in love, so I suggest you try to take your time with it.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Thu, 12 June 2014, 23:40:14
WIsh there was a Topre switch tester.

Show Image
(http://www.mrbrown.com/.a/6a00d83451b52369e2019b03296647970d-550wi)


Hahaha, +1.

So fresh so clean



Thanks. I just put the Leopold darker grey space bar on it and now it truly looks like a Lego scheme. I love the look for sure.

I'm really trying to love this switch but I'm making a lot more mistakes on this FC660C than I make on my cherry brown board.  I feel the keys are a bit too stiff on topre and the switches are not as consistent throughout the keystrokes as are cherry browns.  It seems like they take a lot of force to get started and then less as you press down the key, kind of like a standard rubber dome.  I'm averaging about 1-2% higher error rate and about 6-10 wps slower in my typing test.

The keyboard FEELS great and sounds really nice to type on but I don't know that I will ever get as good typing on it as I can with a cherry brown board.  If you have to make longer key strokes then that is going to slow you down a little I think. I'm glad I didn't spring for the 55g weight board as the keys are already stiff enough to noticeably slow me down with the 45g weight.  On the Blackbird with cherry browns I can literally just lightly tap each key and not worry about it registering or not plus you get a little feedback unlike the topre.  Although topre switches register the keystroke closer to the top the extra force required makes it seem the opposite, and the need to bottom the keys in order to avoid making mistakes by hitting a key too lightly takes over.  This might also be due to the keys resistance throughout the keystroke becoming less as you press which almost forces you to bottom out when you type even though they do not need to be bottomed out to work.

I love the sound though, no question topre  sounds the best when you type on it and I think it is more fun to type on it as well, but I'm not thinking it is worth the cost over a good board with cherry switches.  Maybe it will grow on me. Is there any plans to make a lighter say all 35g topre board?  There's no way this thing requires the same force as standard cherries.  Maybe the rubber domes are too stiff or something, and only the springs are 45g weighted?

Anyone else's Delete key easier to press than the rest of the keys?  Do your shift keys stabilizers sound kinda clankey compared to the other long keys?  Well at least this board drops the volume a little and is something different to type on so that I won't get bored.

I am actually going to bring this up in my video. Where I do not feel a difference in any of the keys on my Leopold, I can see where you might feel like it is stiff. Especially coming from Cherry MX browns. I came from Reds which has the same actuation force as Browns and loved it because I was looking for a stiffer switch for a better typing experience.

However, with the Type-S the keys feel MUCH lighter. I would go as far as to say just as light as my reds but without the ability to actuate without pressing the key all the way down. Now I don't know if this is the case only with the Type-S or with HHKB boards as a whole so if you are interested in a lighter switch you definitely might want to try out either the regular HHKB and report back or spring for a Type-S. To be honest, if I had to compare the Type-S to a Cherry MX board (keep in mind if I had, it is still very different) I would probably say it is most like Browns but even quieter.

HHKBs, even Type-S' go super quick in the Classfields -- so if you are like me and won't be satisfied until you try it; you can rest assured you will be able to sell it if you don't like it. I fell in love with Topre the minute I felt the tactility because that tight tactile feel is exactly what I was going for. Now I have my Leopold for the typing experience and the Type-S for the silencing experience with a little light actuation which I feel is better for gaming. The cushion the silencing gives also feels really nice for typing but like I said, it is definitely not as tight feeling as the FC660C.

I will likely include all of this in the comprehensive video review.

As for the Shift key sounding more 'clanky', I can definitely hear what you are saying. But it just seems to be the stabilizer rattling on the upstroke. Some of the other keys do not have the rear stabilizer or a stabilizer at all like the 'Shift' keys and 'Backspace' keys do. Topre stabilizers are like costar stabilizers but the bar is behind the metal plate (the HHKB does not have a metal plate) that holds the switch housings. The switch housing are like the black thing around Cherry switches that holds the plunger. The plunger functions like a Cherry MX stem. Nevertheless, applying some stabilizer grease should definitely help to reduce that rattle. However, I think it rattles a bit because of the plate being metal. I am not sure, I would have to open up the keyboard again.

When I first felt Topre I liked it and was intrigued, but it didn't take me until a day or so to really fall in love with it. Especially when I tried to go back to a Cherry board.

P.S. The reason longer plungers are mentioned is because of the way silencing is applied to Topre keyboards. The silencing comes from dampening the upstroke of the keys so a thin circular pad is put on the plunger but under the plate. Because of this, the actuation is slightly reduced. Realforce's silenced Topre boards have longer, purple plungers that are slightly longer to compensate for the thin pad so ideally, the stroke of the key is exactly the same without the silencing. I think one or two people on here took the plungers from the Realforce and put them on their custom modded HHKB and reported that the feel is like a regular HHKB just with the silencing of a Type-S. Custom modded HHKB or FC660Cs with ironed landing pads, dental bands or cut rubber is reported thicker than a stock Type-S and a stock Type-S has been reported to have the best silencing with the most reduction in travel due to it being done stock and at the factory. Personally, I attribute it to the fact that the plungers don't have to be poked out because when I poked mine out, I feel like it gave the keys a bit more play on top of it. However, I am not 100% sure because I don't have a stock Leopold to test it and I don't remember if it has the exact same play as it did.

If you've made it this far, I hope this explains things and helps you on your journey to your end-game board.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Justintoxicated on Fri, 13 June 2014, 11:38:38
--

Any idea on a price? Maybe I will buy it from you just for the case.

--

I was thinking about 120GBP (201.62USD), but I'm not to certain about shipping anywhere else than Europe.

-

So the only difference between these two is that ring? Or I'm not seeing something?

Yeah, the only difference is that silencing ring. But the thing is, people try to replicate that ring by cutting pieces of rubber or using dental bands and there are flaws with both those methods. Cutting the rubber foam is A LOT OF WORK and usually results in a ring that is slightly thicker than that. With the dental band mod, the bands are made of harder rubber than those foam rings so it doesn't give the same silencing. It is close, but just not the same. The bands are also said to be a tad too thick and do affect the actuation quite a bit. I know "Glissant" used 1/8" Light dental bands instead of the 3/16" most use and he reported no noticeable travel distance difference.

There is another method which requires you to iron landing pads from EK. This is the method I tried and which brought me to a Type-S because I didn't like the difference in travel. One of my favorite thing about Topre is how the keys bounce back quite nicely and there is no way to actuate a key without completely pressing it unlike a Cherry switch. With the silencing mod it took part of that away from me. It made the switches feel borderline linear to me.

All of this does not include the fact that I noticed modding yourself leaves little to be desired about the stiffness of the keys like I mentioned in the earlier post.

I can speak to the o2 mod.  I did it to my stock HHKB and ended up reversing it as it felt inconsistent when compared next to a stock type-s.  The silencing was much more effective than stock silencing though.

Interesting indeed. So the dampening was more effective on the mod but the Type-S gave less travel distance reduction and more uniformity?

Yes, exactly. The rubber/silicon used in the o2 mod was very very effective at muffling the sound.  The Type S has more of a resonance that I believed the rubber from o2's mod killed.

I know exactly what you mean. When I listen to the Type-S via videos, it is almost like it muffles the sound JUST ENOUGH to where it makes a MORE SATISFYING up stoke sound as opposed to completely silencing it.

Your type-s is ergo weighted right?  The would explain why it feels so much lighter. I guess my end game for typing would be a constant 45g topre, but with the lighter 45g realforce switches, not the FC660C's (gray cap model) stiffer keys (Granted I haven't been able to try both), but also with the type-s plungers and with some backlighting (preferably white, amber or red) and doubleshot pbt keycaps in a non ugly "deck" font.  It would then also need to have 87 key layout and the caps lock keys would light up when engaged or utilize an easy to see indicator light that is not hidden  behind the int home pgup keys.  A rubberized aluminum low profile volume wheel that is slightly tactical and with FN media keys to boot.  If it comes with feet, the bottoms of those feet would need to be like the FC660C's to prevent the board from sliding around on smooth surfaces.  A USB3 port might be icing on the cake since I  never really care about those.

No one make anything like this though of course :P   But if they DID!
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Fri, 13 June 2014, 12:27:14
--

Any idea on a price? Maybe I will buy it from you just for the case.

--

I was thinking about 120GBP (201.62USD), but I'm not to certain about shipping anywhere else than Europe.

-

So the only difference between these two is that ring? Or I'm not seeing something?

Yeah, the only difference is that silencing ring. But the thing is, people try to replicate that ring by cutting pieces of rubber or using dental bands and there are flaws with both those methods. Cutting the rubber foam is A LOT OF WORK and usually results in a ring that is slightly thicker than that. With the dental band mod, the bands are made of harder rubber than those foam rings so it doesn't give the same silencing. It is close, but just not the same. The bands are also said to be a tad too thick and do affect the actuation quite a bit. I know "Glissant" used 1/8" Light dental bands instead of the 3/16" most use and he reported no noticeable travel distance difference.

There is another method which requires you to iron landing pads from EK. This is the method I tried and which brought me to a Type-S because I didn't like the difference in travel. One of my favorite thing about Topre is how the keys bounce back quite nicely and there is no way to actuate a key without completely pressing it unlike a Cherry switch. With the silencing mod it took part of that away from me. It made the switches feel borderline linear to me.

All of this does not include the fact that I noticed modding yourself leaves little to be desired about the stiffness of the keys like I mentioned in the earlier post.

I can speak to the o2 mod.  I did it to my stock HHKB and ended up reversing it as it felt inconsistent when compared next to a stock type-s.  The silencing was much more effective than stock silencing though.

Interesting indeed. So the dampening was more effective on the mod but the Type-S gave less travel distance reduction and more uniformity?

Yes, exactly. The rubber/silicon used in the o2 mod was very very effective at muffling the sound.  The Type S has more of a resonance that I believed the rubber from o2's mod killed.

I know exactly what you mean. When I listen to the Type-S via videos, it is almost like it muffles the sound JUST ENOUGH to where it makes a MORE SATISFYING up stoke sound as opposed to completely silencing it.

Your type-s is ergo weighted right?  The would explain why it feels so much lighter. I guess my end game for typing would be a constant 45g topre, but with the lighter 45g realforce switches, not the FC660C's (gray cap model) stiffer keys (Granted I haven't been able to try both), but also with the type-s plungers and with some backlighting (preferably white, amber or red) and doubleshot pbt keycaps in a non ugly "deck" font.  It would then also need to have 87 key layout and the caps lock keys would light up when engaged or utilize an easy to see indicator light that is not hidden  behind the int home pgup keys.  A rubberized aluminum low profile volume wheel that is slightly tactical and with FN media keys to boot.  If it comes with feet, the bottoms of those feet would need to be like the FC660C's to prevent the board from sliding around on smooth surfaces.  A USB3 port might be icing on the cake since I  never really care about those.

No one make anything like this though of course :P   But if they DID!

My Type-S is stock, not ergo. Others have confirmed that the FC660C feels more like 50g than 45g where HHKB switch, type-s or not is definitely lighter.
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: Justintoxicated on Fri, 13 June 2014, 13:03:38

My Type-S is stock, not ergo. Others have confirmed that the FC660C feels more like 50g than 45g where HHKB switch, type-s or not is definitely lighter.

HHKB is a good looking board but I need those insert delete and arrow keys.  While the HHKB is branded towards software developers the layout really is not IMO.  I don't use VIM I use an IDE for enterprise projects like the rest of the modern world ;)  I wouldn't trade those arrow keys for lighter keys. Int he end how fast do you need to be able to type code, most of development research thought debugging and auto complete and project server configurations :)
Title: Re: My Fall to the Dark Side is Complete (Topre Praise)
Post by: OnTheBrink on Fri, 13 June 2014, 16:06:44

My Type-S is stock, not ergo. Others have confirmed that the FC660C feels more like 50g than 45g where HHKB switch, type-s or not is definitely lighter.

HHKB is a good looking board but I need those insert delete and arrow keys.  While the HHKB is branded towards software developers the layout really is not IMO.  I don't use VIM I use an IDE for enterprise projects like the rest of the modern world ;)  I wouldn't trade those arrow keys for lighter keys. Int he end how fast do you need to be able to type code, most of development research thought debugging and auto complete and project server configurations :)

Got you. I am not a programmer so I wouldn't be able to relate. However, I do use the arrow keys and find using FN and the arrow cluster (especially when I changed the color of the arrow area) is fast. I'll have to test if I can operate it just as fast when I get used to the locations of the keys.