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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: xuanwumen on Sat, 07 June 2014, 08:05:01
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Specifications of kailh switches from keycool for their new kc87 backlit with kailh switches.
Can be used as reference for contrast between kailh and cherry if intereted.
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Thanks for this helpful info! :thumb:
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Specifications of kailh switches from keycool for their new kc87 backlit with kailh switches.
Can be used as reference for contrast between kailh and cherry if intereted.
Looking good, may have to try these out in the future and what not.
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Interesting ... it seems like they are just copying Cherry switch colors? Red/black = linear, blue = clicky, etc.
I am somewhat tempted to try Kailh switches but my expectation's are low, maybe I would be surprised though.
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Interesting ... it seems like they are just copying Cherry switch colors? Red/black = linear, blue = clicky, etc.
I am somewhat tempted to try Kailh switches but my expectation's are low, maybe I would be surprised though.
I hope the quality difference is not as large as say...
Lego vs Megablock
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Who knows - these might be better than Cherry switches. I haven't been too impressed with the latest batches of linear Cherry's - extremely scratchy compared to what was put out several years ago.
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Interesting ... it seems like they are just copying Cherry switch colors? Red/black = linear, blue = clicky, etc.
I am somewhat tempted to try Kailh switches but my expectation's are low, maybe I would be surprised though.
I hope the quality difference is not as large as say...
Lego vs Megablock
I wouldn't say the housing is terribly different in quality.. but the stems... for sure the cherry ones can take more beating..
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Yes, they need more users'practices to prove they are strong enough ...
Now they're quite popular in china markets and many more chinese users are getting into it.
Here is my link for more details.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Keycool-87-green-LED-backlit-Kailh-mx-compatible-switch-mechanical-keyboard-gaming-keyboard-keycool-84/818404656.html
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I'd say it was confusing that they are copying Cherry colours.
If you are buying a keyboard and the seller removes a few keycaps for photographs, unless they are exceptionally clear or close-up photos you might get the wrong impression, and end up buying something other than what you thought you were getting.
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I'd say it was confusing that they are copying Cherry colours.
If you are buying a keyboard and the seller removes a few keycaps for photographs, unless they are exceptionally clear or close-up photos you might get the wrong impression, and end up buying something other than what you thought you were getting.
That's probably the idea. Regular consumers will not know any better.
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Yes, they need more users'practices to prove they are strong enough ...
Now they're quite popular in china markets and many more chinese users are getting into it.
Here is my link for more details.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Keycool-87-green-LED-backlit-Kailh-mx-compatible-switch-mechanical-keyboard-gaming-keyboard-keycool-84/818404656.html
"He who must not be named on Geekhack" disagrees.
http://imgur.com/a/7ujle
Of course that may be dated and their reputation may pick up, but the review you posted is just one review and three high ratings. Even Razer can do better then that.
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I'd say it was confusing that they are copying Cherry colours.
If you are buying a keyboard and the seller removes a few keycaps for photographs, unless they are exceptionally clear or close-up photos you might get the wrong impression, and end up buying something other than what you thought you were getting.
If they are Cherry they will say Cherry. I cannot imagine a manufacturer not including Cherry in the product description if they can.
I actually find it less confusing. It would be terrible if you had to know that a blue Cherry is the same as a pink Kailh and a purple OTM.
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Who knows - these might be better than Cherry switches. I haven't been too impressed with the latest batches of linear Cherry's - extremely scratchy compared to what was put out several years ago.
Or they might clean up their act.
Still at this point they are unproven.
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I'd say it was confusing that they are copying Cherry colours.
If you are buying a keyboard and the seller removes a few keycaps for photographs, unless they are exceptionally clear or close-up photos you might get the wrong impression, and end up buying something other than what you thought you were getting.
If they are Cherry they will say Cherry. I cannot imagine a manufacturer not including Cherry in the product description if they can.
I actually find it less confusing. It would be terrible if you had to know that a blue Cherry is the same as a pink Kailh and a purple OTM.
Kailh uses same color name as cherry colors. It is clear that they're taking cherry as their target to compete.
To some extent, this is good news for users. Finally they have more options. Just need time to prove it is a positive option or not...
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How is plagiarism good news for the users?
Competition? Maybe. However, don't forget there's Topre (w/ MX-compatible stems soon) and Matias (w/ MX-compatible stems in the works, apparently). Neither is as shady as the hordes of mostly Chinese manufacturers.
Also, it appears that Kailh aims mostly for application in consumer-grade products. That doesn't scream "quality" to me.
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How is plagiarism good news for the users?
Competition? Maybe. However, don't forget there's Topre (w/ MX-compatible stems soon) and Matias (w/ MX-compatible stems in the works, apparently). Neither is as shady as the hordes of mostly Chinese manufacturers.
Also, it appears that Kailh aims mostly for application in consumer-grade products. That doesn't scream "quality" to me.
Where is the info on the matias with mx stems?
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AcidFire has mentioned it in his thread about the Axios, if I understood it correctly.
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How is plagiarism good news for the users?
Competition? Maybe. However, don't forget there's Topre (w/ MX-compatible stems soon) and Matias (w/ MX-compatible stems in the works, apparently). Neither is as shady as the hordes of mostly Chinese manufacturers.
Also, it appears that Kailh aims mostly for application in consumer-grade products. That doesn't scream "quality" to me.
I find the wide tolerances on the actuation force specifications to be the most telling. 60+-20 and 45+-15 are both over 30% different!
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How is plagiarism good news for the users?
Competition? Maybe. However, don't forget there's Topre (w/ MX-compatible stems soon) and Matias (w/ MX-compatible stems in the works, apparently). Neither is as shady as the hordes of mostly Chinese manufacturers.
Also, it appears that Kailh aims mostly for application in consumer-grade products. That doesn't scream "quality" to me.
I find the wide tolerances on the actuation force specifications to be the most telling. 60+-20 and 45+-15 are both over 30% different!
To me very little is more important in manufacturing than tight tolerances. If the tolerances are very tight, a product made of low quality materials can still feel like a million dollars IMHO
The variations in force are just about the difference between clears and reds man. a keyboard with that much switch to switch variance is gonna feel weird as hell at least, like pure garbage at worst.
I can see this putting people off mechanical, which I think we all agree would suck.
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Which keycool keyboards are using these kailh switches?
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Yeah, since the Cherry MX patent has been expired for something like 10 years now, I'm all for clones and any potential improvements and or price reductions that they might bring. So, fanboyism aside, everyone is perfectly able to clone Cherry switches to make them better or more cost effective, and the consumer will be happier as the result provided they are at the very least objectively about the same quality. If Cherry doesn't want to lose business in this exploding market, they can either start competing on cost and/or availability, or start making new and better switches that are patented. The new backlit ones are a good step in that direction, but I'd rather have them make something that is actually interesting to type on :p
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Of course, competition of Chinese manufacturers brings customers various benefits, such as lower costs or extreme weather (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/04/09/1403364111).
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I'd say it was confusing that they are copying Cherry colours.
Well, if they used a completely different color coding, people wouldn't remember which one was clicky, which one was quiet tactile, which one was linear - because they wouldn't be bothered memorizing the Kailh color code in addition to the Cherry color code.
However, if they used a different shade of red, a different shade of blue, and so on, to prevent misidentification of their switches with genuine Cherry switches, that would address your objection without creating a whole new color code to memorize.
Yeah, since the Cherry MX patent has been expired for something like 10 years now, I'm all for clones and any potential improvements and or price reductions that they might bring. So, fanboyism aside, everyone is perfectly able to clone Cherry switches to make them better or more cost effective, and the consumer will be happier as the result provided they are at the very least objectively about the same quality. If Cherry doesn't want to lose business in this exploding market, they can either start competing on cost and/or availability, or start making new and better switches that are patented.
At the moment, apparently the Kailh switches aren't quite the same quality as real Cherry switches. The stems can break more easily, and the switches aren't made to tight enough tolerances to ensure keyboards with a uniform feel, at least so I've read from recent threads here.
However, given that a number of major keyboard makers are using those switches, they can't be that bad, either.
Of course, the other major mechanical switch, the ALPS, had been cloned for quite a while now.
What I'd really like to see, though, is not so much Cherry trying harder to compete, but the Chinese trying harder to compete.
They made one buckling spring keyboard in China. It was a hilarious failure - but mostly because there was no solid backing for the keyboard. A sheet of metal of reasonable gauge below the keys would not be that expensive, and perhaps a few other design changes to fix other issues should not be an insuperable challenge.
And why couldn't the Chinese inexpensively manufacture the ultimate keyboard, the patents for which have definitely expired? Presumably it would require the keyboard chip to be set up for capacitative operation. Like a Topre. Like a Model F buckling spring. But better than either in terms of tactile feel.
Unfortunately, it would also be noisier, which is probably why the Chinese and everyone else are figuring that it would never sell enough to be worth the effort.
Yes, I do indeed mean: a Chinese clone beam spring keyboard!!!
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There is no AGREEMENT on what constitutes the ULTIMATE keyboard..
and "different switches" is certainly on the Gimmick side of keyboarding... it only draws in N00bers..
Once you become keyboard enlighten-ed you'd see that the switches hardly matter at all..
It all comes down to Usability....(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/cool-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862496)
And US, the grandfather users, are not the main market.. It's very hard to convince me to spend money...
However... all the younger kids out there, it's far easier to convince them... and all they have to do is Nag their parents enough... and the product is SOLD..
That is the priority of the marketing development...
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Which keycool keyboards are using these kailh switches?
The new keycool 87 backlit versions with kailh switches. Same PCB plate as their other cherry switches keyboards, just different switches.
ABS keycaps.