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geekhack Community => Input Devices => Topic started by: Harms on Fri, 13 June 2014, 00:52:10

Title: Optical vs Laser
Post by: Harms on Fri, 13 June 2014, 00:52:10
Around these forums I keep hearing that Laser sensors are straight up bad compared to optical. Is there a reason for this?
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: Pacifist on Fri, 13 June 2014, 00:54:41
most laser sensors have inherent accelleration
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: Emmiya on Fri, 13 June 2014, 21:08:30
Here's a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yX_DQXSWJ4) I just made to show the difference between the 2.

Laser first with all forms of acceleration turned off(except the inherent negative laser-acceleration)
Optical second.

I'll let the results (http://gyazo.com/fa2ccdcb2bfcf46aaf4e483104797523) speak for themselves.

Which brings me quite a lot of shame, because I love the feel of my laser mouse, but it's not worth the 18% accuracy drop (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vqDHjAL7-U)
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: PointyFox on Fri, 13 June 2014, 21:19:39
Lasers are more accurate for close range and allow faster target acquisition as well as the ability to shoot from odd positions.  Optical is better for long range due to (usually) less parallax and the possibility of magnification.  Also optical is more reliable due to lower or zero battery consumption.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: Emmiya on Fri, 13 June 2014, 21:41:14
Lasers are more accurate for close range and allow faster target acquisition as well as the ability to shoot from odd positions.  Optical is better for long range due to (usually) less parallax and the possibility of magnification.  Also optical is more reliable due to lower or zero battery consumption.
Surely that's less about the type of sensor used, and the amount of mouse accel / sensitivity in play?
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: Harms on Sat, 14 June 2014, 01:01:41
Thanks everyone, I have another questions and I don't want to create another thread.Therefore, when does the Coolermaster Mizar mouse come out for North America, thank you.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: wetto on Tue, 17 June 2014, 00:29:48
Thanks everyone, I have another questions and I don't want to create another thread.Therefore, when does the Coolermaster Mizar mouse come out for North America, thank you.

The CM Storm Mizar had one of the biggest LOD's I've seen on a mouse when I tested it on february. Probably around 6 CDs.

Plus it's  laser mouse, having all the problems that have been presented to you on this thread.

If you want a mouse with a similar shape to the MS 3.0, you may want to consider the CM Storm Alcor instead or the CM Storm Alcor+, which should be released soon with an AVAGO 3310 sensor. And obviously, there's the Zowie EC1 EvO which also has a great optical sensor.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: Zekromtor on Tue, 17 June 2014, 10:02:16
Here's a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yX_DQXSWJ4) I just made to show the difference between the 2.

Laser first with all forms of acceleration turned off(except the inherent negative laser-acceleration)
Optical second.

I'll let the results (http://gyazo.com/fa2ccdcb2bfcf46aaf4e483104797523) speak for themselves.

Which brings me quite a lot of shame, because I love the feel of my laser mouse, but it's not worth the 18% accuracy drop (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vqDHjAL7-U)

holy ****... I guess I shouldn't have been hiding in the keyboard forums this past month. Now I need a new mouse as well. ugh.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 17 June 2014, 12:13:02
I saw some benches a while ago...   the laser acceleration is +/- 5%      that's honestly quite reasonable....


But the question is.. why would you pay more money for worse tracking...


USA, g400, I've seen as low as $20   and the CM spawn as low as $14
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: Acknown3 on Wed, 18 June 2014, 15:57:55
I've used 20 different types of mice, and while opticals have felt more accurate, I have yet to find one that fits my hands the way a Sensei mouse does. I tried the FK but it was too low and narrow. Perhaps I may trade it for an eVo.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: munch on Wed, 18 June 2014, 18:06:11
Kana v2 is more like the Sensei and has an optical sensor. then perhaps the Avior 7000, as it's about as big as the Sensei?

FK is quite a bit more narrow, so it's understandable.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: PointyFox on Wed, 18 June 2014, 21:59:58
Lasers are more accurate for close range and allow faster target acquisition as well as the ability to shoot from odd positions.  Optical is better for long range due to (usually) less parallax and the possibility of magnification.  Also optical is more reliable due to lower or zero battery consumption.
Surely that's less about the type of sensor used, and the amount of mouse accel / sensitivity in play?


Oh, thought the topic was about weapon sights.  Carry on.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 23 June 2014, 13:24:35
I don't use optical or laser mice. Ball mice are where it's at!
(http://webpage.pace.edu/ms16182p/troubleshooting/ballmouse.jpg)
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: Zekromtor on Mon, 23 June 2014, 19:42:05
That feel when you got all the crap off one of the roller wheels in one solid piece...
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 24 June 2014, 10:21:53
That feel when you got all the crap off one of the roller wheels in one solid piece...

Can't do that with an optical mouse, that's for sure!
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: noisyturtle on Thu, 26 June 2014, 17:10:42
I don't use optical or laser mice. Ball mice are where it's at!
Show Image
(http://webpage.pace.edu/ms16182p/troubleshooting/ballmouse.jpg)


Not gonna lie, the Boomslang was probably the best mouse I ever had.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: Prelim on Thu, 10 July 2014, 14:49:13
Not gonna lie, the Boomslang was probably the best mouse I ever had.

awful ergonomics, but great mouse
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: woll3 on Fri, 18 July 2014, 14:13:54
most laser sensors have inherent accelleration

I would like to know where you get your Information from.


Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 18 July 2014, 14:15:10
most laser sensors have inherent accelleration

I would like to know where you get your Information from.




Just drop a laser sensor on the ground. It will accelerate at 9.8 meters per second.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: vun on Fri, 18 July 2014, 15:44:48
most laser sensors have inherent accelleration

I would like to know where you get your Information from.




It's not exactly a secret; afaik there are no Avago laser sensors that do not suffer from acceleration, and most, if not all, current laser mice use Avago sensors. There were a few that didn't, and the PTE has no accel even though I believe it uses a laser, but that has a host of other issues to compensate.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: woll3 on Fri, 18 July 2014, 16:18:49
afaik there are no Avago laser sensors that do not suffer from acceleration

And that is flatout BS, its "just" a problem with the complete Package that is the A9500/A9800, and as i mentioned in another thread, it is not "acceleration", PMW3310 shows similar behaviour, altough on a much lower scale(PMW3310 is essentially a led lit A9800).
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: Emmiya on Sat, 19 July 2014, 05:17:35
Here's a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yX_DQXSWJ4) I just made to show the difference between the 2.

Laser first with all forms of acceleration turned off(except the inherent negative laser-acceleration)
Optical second.

I'll let the results (http://gyazo.com/fa2ccdcb2bfcf46aaf4e483104797523) speak for themselves.

Which brings me quite a lot of shame, because I love the feel of my laser mouse, but it's not worth the 18% accuracy drop (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vqDHjAL7-U)

afaik there are no Avago laser sensors that do not suffer from acceleration

And that is flatout BS, its "just" a problem with the complete Package that is the A9500/A9800, and as i mentioned in another thread, it is not "acceleration", PMW3310 shows similar behaviour, altough on a much lower scale(PMW3310 is essentially a led lit A9800).

http://www.overclock.net/t/854100/gaming-mouse-sensor-list
Well, given that there is literally only ONE other alternative laser sensor being used that isn't 9500/9800, I would say it's not "flatout BS" Unfortunately I don't have a 6000-sensor mouse to test, but I would be willing to be it also suffers from the same problem.

The fact is that the VAST majority of "gaming" laser mice have this acceleration is just a fact, trying to deny this just makes you look silly.

And well, to the people saying it doesn't make a difference, You may be right in most cases.
However, for FPS games, I beg to differ, and refer you to my post #2:
Here's a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yX_DQXSWJ4) I just made to show the difference between the 2.

Laser first with all forms of acceleration turned off(except the inherent negative laser-acceleration)
Optical second.

I'll let the results (http://gyazo.com/fa2ccdcb2bfcf46aaf4e483104797523) speak for themselves.

Which brings me quite a lot of shame, because I love the feel of my laser mouse, but it's not worth the 18% accuracy drop (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vqDHjAL7-U)

Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: woll3 on Sat, 19 July 2014, 09:12:45

http://www.overclock.net/t/854100/gaming-mouse-sensor-list
Well, given that there is literally only ONE other alternative laser sensor being used that isn't 9500/9800, I would say it's not "flatout BS" Unfortunately I don't have a 6000-sensor mouse to test, but I would be willing to be it also suffers from the same problem.

Well, 6006, 6010, 6018, 6090 have much lower variance than 9500 and 9800, so yes, saying that every Avago Laserstream sensor has "acceleration" is flatout BS. While tracking characteristics are influenced by illumination method, in the end it comes down to how the whole package works.

The fact is that the VAST majority of "gaming" laser mice have this acceleration is just a fact, trying to deny this just makes you look silly.

Nobody denies anything, you just dont understand what im writing apparently.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: vun on Sat, 19 July 2014, 09:48:52

http://www.overclock.net/t/854100/gaming-mouse-sensor-list
Well, given that there is literally only ONE other alternative laser sensor being used that isn't 9500/9800, I would say it's not "flatout BS" Unfortunately I don't have a 6000-sensor mouse to test, but I would be willing to be it also suffers from the same problem.

Well, 6006, 6010, 6018, 6090 have much lower variance than 9500 and 9800, so yes, saying that every Avago Laserstream sensor has "acceleration" is flatout BS. While tracking characteristics are influenced by illumination method, in the end it comes down to how the whole package works.

The fact is that the VAST majority of "gaming" laser mice have this acceleration is just a fact, trying to deny this just makes you look silly.

Nobody denies anything, you just dont understand what im writing apparently.


Most mice on the market nowadays use the 9xxx tho, the mice using 6xxx are mostly EOL with the possible exception of budget brand mice.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: Emmiya on Sat, 19 July 2014, 18:37:50
Most mice on the market nowadays use the 9xxx tho, the mice using 6xxx are mostly EOL with the possible exception of budget brand mice.

So essentially: most laser mice out there right now are using the 9xxx sensor, which is confirmed by thousands of sources to have "acceleration" issues.
Therefore I would not be too far off the mark to state that laser mice are unreliable.



http://www.overclock.net/t/854100/gaming-mouse-sensor-list
Well, given that there is literally only ONE other alternative laser sensor being used that isn't 9500/9800, I would say it's not "flatout BS" Unfortunately I don't have a 6000-sensor mouse to test, but I would be willing to be it also suffers from the same problem.

Well, 6006, 6010, 6018, 6090 have much lower variance than 9500 and 9800, so yes, saying that every Avago Laserstream sensor has "acceleration" is flatout BS. While tracking characteristics are influenced by illumination method, in the end it comes down to how the whole package works.

The fact is that the VAST majority of "gaming" laser mice have this acceleration is just a fact, trying to deny this just makes you look silly.

Nobody denies anything, you just dont understand what im writing apparently.


Obviously not, however my point still stands:
*Virtually all laser-sensors are the avago 9xxx series.
*The 9xxx series sensors are notorious for being unreliable, aka not consistent compared to their optical counterparts. As demonstrated by my video.

Whilst it might not BE "acceleration", it certainly appears as if it's acceleration to the uninformed(me) and still results with the same end-game(unreliability).
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: woll3 on Sun, 20 July 2014, 09:48:29
I understand your Pov, but in the end it is still the A9500/9800 platform that causes problems, and not the illumination method itself.

The problem is that in the end when somebody reads a forum and then only finds stuff like "every lasermouse has acceleration", then this is the information that gets from here to another forum/communities/etc.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: vun on Sun, 20 July 2014, 12:04:28
I understand your Pov, but in the end it is still the A9500/9800 platform that causes problems, and not the illumination method itself.

The problem is that in the end when somebody reads a forum and then only finds stuff like "every lasermouse has acceleration", then this is the information that gets from here to another forum/communities/etc.
True, it is poorly worded and can easily lead to misunderstandings.

Not that it seems to have much effect, laser mice with the 9xxx are still being churned out on a regular basis and probably sell by the boatload.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: wetto on Sun, 20 July 2014, 22:09:02
I understand your Pov, but in the end it is still the A9500/9800 platform that causes problems, and not the illumination method itself.

The problem is that in the end when somebody reads a forum and then only finds stuff like "every lasermouse has acceleration", then this is the information that gets from here to another forum/communities/etc.
True, it is poorly worded and can easily lead to misunderstandings.

Not that it seems to have much effect, laser mice with the 9xxx are still being churned out on a regular basis and probably sell by the boatload.

And here's something from one of CM Storm's peripherals designers :)

Quote
[24/06/2013 20:24:09] Wellington Diesel: but be careful of AVAGO 9800
[24/06/2013 20:24:21] Wellington Diesel: there have been some problems everywhere with them
[24/06/2013 20:24:26] Carter Salley: avago 9800 is honestly just a sell for the masses
[24/06/2013 20:24:29] Carter Salley: I hate the sensor
[24/06/2013 20:24:33] Carter Salley: but DPI sells
[24/06/2013 20:24:34] Wellington Diesel: yeah
[24/06/2013 20:24:36] Wellington Diesel: I know, I know
[24/06/2013 20:24:40] Carter Salley: so we make flashy mice for those
[24/06/2013 20:24:54] Carter Salley: and I keep making the 3090 mice focusing on build quality and grip type
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: Emmiya on Sun, 20 July 2014, 22:27:08
Sounds about right, people see "8200 DPI SENSOR! LIGHTNING FAST!1!!" and they have to buy it >___>

What I would give for an ambidextrous fingertip/claw grip mouse[small*] with a good optical sensor. Brownie points if they add additional buttons, although you're either stuck with 3 or 7 or 9 at that point.
*Ideal dimensions - (115-120 x 60-65 x 35-40)

Closest I've had is Razer Abyssus, but it's not exactly the comfiest design nowadays, if it was a little more ergonomic it would be perfect.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: microsoft windows on Thu, 24 July 2014, 14:10:35
Do laser mice work better than optical mice on smooth, painted surfaces? That's where I always run into trouble with optical units.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: wetto on Fri, 25 July 2014, 02:11:14
Do laser mice work better than optical mice on smooth, painted surfaces? That's where I always run into trouble with optical units.

Yes, they do, but there are some optical sensors (AVAGO 3050, AVAGO M000, AVAGO M010) that also work quite well with painted surfaces.

And a few times, all you need to do to make some AVAGO 3090 mice work with painted surfaces is adjust the LOD to a higher setting (if the software/firmware allows that).
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 25 July 2014, 11:42:43
Do laser mice work better than optical mice on smooth, painted surfaces? That's where I always run into trouble with optical units.

Yes, they do, but there are some optical sensors (AVAGO 3050, AVAGO M000, AVAGO M010) that also work quite well with painted surfaces.

And a few times, all you need to do to make some AVAGO 3090 mice work with painted surfaces is adjust the LOD to a higher setting (if the software/firmware allows that).

The main problem I always had with them was the smooth painted surface reflecting whatever optical signal the mouse was using for its movement. Of course, using a mousepad would remedy that, but it would be nice if I didn't have to use them.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 28 July 2014, 04:54:54
There's a new generation Philips laser doppler sensor on the market. Seems to be as accurate as the Twin Eye but with none of the problems.

First mouse to use it is the Mad Catz RAT TE (Tournament Edition). Getting good reviews so far.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: wetto on Mon, 28 July 2014, 08:09:51
There's a new generation Philips laser doppler sensor on the market. Seems to be as accurate as the Twin Eye but with none of the problems.

First mouse to use it is the Mad Catz RAT TE (Tournament Edition). Getting good reviews so far.

I thought the first one to use that new Philips sensor was the Razer Naga 2014 (although the DPI seems to indicate so, it does not uses the AVAGO S9818), since its characteristics don't seem to resemble the older versions (or maybe it's just a modification of the PTE PLN 2033, which was already an improvement over the craptastic PLN 2031 and PLN 2032).

Also, what seems even more interesting, is that Mad Catz finally improved the internal build of their mice, removing the Zhij crap and using proper OMRON switches (although its the cheapest model, lol):
http://www.4gamer.net/games/097/G009735/20140330001/

Still, its price is pretty much retarded, as has always been.
Title: Re: Optical vs Laser
Post by: Protato_Tubby on Thu, 14 August 2014, 12:05:17
most laser sensors have inherent accelleration

I would like to know where you get your Information from.




Just drop a laser sensor on the ground. It will accelerate at 9.8 meters per second.
Have we accounted for other near-by gravity sources (eg. A mountain?) or other forces (eg. Magnetic, air resistance, etc.)?