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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: aref on Tue, 17 June 2014, 11:41:47

Title: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: aref on Tue, 17 June 2014, 11:41:47: I like MX linear switches, which means I'm limited to stock MX Red or MX Black switches. I'm using
MX Reds and am curious to know how long it might take for stock MX Blacks' down-force diminish.
I've no idea about the length of time it might take for any MX switch's spring to fatigue.
Title: Re: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: exitfire401 on Tue, 17 June 2014, 11:46:42: Quote from: aref on Tue, 17 June 2014, 11:41:47
I like MX linear switches, which means I'm limited to stock MX Red or MX Black switches. I'm using
MX Reds and am curious to know how long it might take for stock MX Blacks' down-force diminish.
I've no idea about the length of time it might take for any MX switch's spring to fatigue.

I had a ducky for 2 years with blacks that I didn't notice any change of force on. Daily use with 6-8 hours between school and gaming typing.
Title: Re: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: aref on Tue, 17 June 2014, 12:01:50: Quote from: exitfire401 on Tue, 17 June 2014, 11:46:42
Quote from: aref on Tue, 17 June 2014, 11:41:47
I like MX linear switches, which means I'm limited to stock MX Red or MX Black switches. I'm using
MX Reds and am curious to know how long it might take for stock MX Blacks' down-force diminish.
I've no idea about the length of time it might take for any MX switch's spring to fatigue.

I had a ducky for 2 years with blacks that I didn't notice any change of force on. Daily use with 6-8 hours between school and gaming typing.

This is interesting. It may be that so little force is exacted on the springs from repeated key strikes, that there's no
discernible feel in a spring's fatigue, even though a minute diminution may be measurable. Thanks for the information.
Title: Re: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 17 June 2014, 12:02:33: You lose 5g once they're broken in..

And not all springs will be even because you use each key at a different rate..

So, Yes is the answer to your question..

but.....

No, it' doesn't matter come use... (http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/washing-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862524)
Title: Re: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 17 June 2014, 12:34:33: Just a little bit

It's mostly the slider smoothing out over time.
Title: Re: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: aref on Tue, 17 June 2014, 13:59:08: Quote from: tp4tissue on Tue, 17 June 2014, 12:02:33
You lose 5g once they're broken in..

And not all springs will be even because you use each key at a different rate..

So, Yes is the answer to your question..

but.....

No, it' doesn't matter come use...
Show Image
(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/washing-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862524)

Of course, good points; as some keys are used more than others. Looks like I'll have to abandon the MX Black thing. If Cherry would only make a 55g linear.
Time to watch what should be a great FIFA match --> Brazil vs. Mexico.
Title: Re: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 17 June 2014, 14:03:20: could always just do a spring swap.....
Title: Re: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: aref on Tue, 17 June 2014, 15:04:34: Quote from: TacticalStache on Tue, 17 June 2014, 14:03:20
could always just do a spring swap.....

I thought of doing what you suggested with one of my MX Red keyboards. I may have to do it if I want a linear switch between Red and Black.
Title: Re: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: FrostyToast on Tue, 17 June 2014, 15:33:07: Gotta get them gold bling springs :cool:
Title: Re: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: minho on Tue, 17 June 2014, 21:08:14: Quote from: aref on Tue, 17 June 2014, 15:04:34
Quote from: TacticalStache on Tue, 17 June 2014, 14:03:20
could always just do a spring swap.....

I thought of doing what you suggested with one of my MX Red keyboards. I may have to do it if I want a linear switch between Red and Black.

Putting Red springs in Black switches will basically just give you red switches with black stems as black and red have identical stems.

Something like red switches and blue springs or clear springs might do the trick if you want in between.
Title: Re: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 17 June 2014, 21:34:25: I think he meant 55g springs in reds/blacks
Title: Re: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: phoenix1234 on Tue, 17 June 2014, 21:41:00: Quote from: aref on Tue, 17 June 2014, 13:59:08
Of course, good points; as some keys are used more than others. Looks like I'll have to abandon the MX Black thing. If Cherry would only make a 55g linear.
Time to watch what should be a great FIFA match --> Brazil vs. Mexico.

If I understand correctly, what you mean is 55g based on Cherry formula (Black 60g, Red 45g). And you want something in between Red-Black. Please note that there are two common ways to calculate the spring force : The Cherry way and the Korean way. In GeekHack, we usually use the Korean way. In Korean formula, Red is about 60g and Black is about 80g.

So my suggestion for what you need is something between 62g-68g (Korean).
It will be a bit heavier than Red and lighter than Black.
You can take a look at this GB
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55888.0
Title: Re: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: jabar on Tue, 17 June 2014, 21:45:12: The "Korean" way is just force to complete compression vs. force to actuation (2mm).
Title: Re: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: aref on Tue, 17 June 2014, 23:39:36: Thanks for the feedback. I meant using Cherry 55g springs in MX Red switches. If I were to use Korean-made springs, I'd likely go with a 68g spring.
I was not suggesting using MX Red springs in MX Black switches--kind of a pointless exercise for one who wants an MX linear switch with greater down-force than MX Red switches.

Thanks for the suggestions. I am going to have to get some 68g Korean switches and have a de-solder/solder and spring swap day.
Title: Re: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: davkol on Thu, 19 June 2014, 08:07:39: To answer the original question... Yes, it does. With some heavy use though. IME it's *years* (close to a decade) of every day use, like data clerks typing 8+ hours a day.
Title: Re: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 19 June 2014, 08:32:22: Quote from: minho on Tue, 17 June 2014, 21:08:14
Quote from: aref on Tue, 17 June 2014, 15:04:34
Quote from: TacticalStache on Tue, 17 June 2014, 14:03:20
could always just do a spring swap.....

I thought of doing what you suggested with one of my MX Red keyboards. I may have to do it if I want a linear switch between Red and Black.

Putting Red springs in Black switches will basically just give you red switches with black stems as black and red have identical stems.

Something like red switches and blue springs or clear springs might do the trick if you want in between.

The springs in reds, blues, and browns are all the same. The reason for the slight perceived higher actuation force is due to the tactile bump. The springs from clears actuate slightly lighter than blacks but bottom out slightly heavier due to having a steeper force curve. For the record I am typing with clear springs in black stems and it feels great.
Title: Re: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: phoenix1234 on Thu, 19 June 2014, 08:44:33: Quote from: davkol on Thu, 19 June 2014, 08:07:39
To answer the original question... Yes, it does. With some heavy use though. IME it's *years* (close to a decade) of every day use, like data clerks typing 8+ hours a day.

To complement to what davkol just said, here is the comparison between the diminished Cherry MX Black spring (left) and the new one (right) As we can see, the old (not vintage) one turned to yellow or darker colour while the new one has brighter colour. I'm not sure which one is the main reason but as my feeling, the old has lighter feeling.
[attachimg=1]

Edit: Don't get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with old Cherry MX Black spring. They are just a bit lighter. That's all and I do believe a lot of people will like them.
Title: Re: Does an MX Black's down-force diminish with use?
Post by: davkol on Thu, 19 June 2014, 10:18:25: Has it actually turned yellow, or is it a different kind of metal? I've seen two kinds of springs in MX switches of various ages and use.