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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: muzzymurray on Tue, 17 June 2014, 22:15:09

Title: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: muzzymurray on Tue, 17 June 2014, 22:15:09: Hi,

I am currently using a HHKB pro2, which, as far as I know, is a linear switch type. I am interested in trying the other extreme, which seems to be model M bucking spring, where a reasonable amount of force is required to actuate the switch. I am a big fan of the 60% layouts so I am really interested in what modern switch type I could use in a 60% keyboard to get a similar effect.

Thanks
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: FrostyToast on Tue, 17 June 2014, 22:18:36: Cherry mx greens as far as I can tell are the closest thing to BS switches if you want a 60%
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: hwood34 on Tue, 17 June 2014, 22:19:10: Well, the closest mx switch I can think of would be MX greens, though it doesn't come standard on any 60% boards.

edit: sniped

edit 2: corrected by riot, comes on V60s
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: riotonthebay on Tue, 17 June 2014, 22:19:18: If what you're interested in is a heavy, clicky switch, you could look for MX Greens. The new V60 has a MX Green variant, and it looks like you may be able to buy it from pexon: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58917.msg1347842#msg1347842

edit: 2 ninjas!
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: Anonymoose on Tue, 17 June 2014, 22:22:51: Leopold Fc660M can also be had in MX Greens.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: hwood34 on Tue, 17 June 2014, 22:23:41: Quote from: Anonymoose on Tue, 17 June 2014, 22:22:51
Leopold Fc660M can also be had in MX Greens.
Really? And that is if you want to put up with the funky shift and spacebar
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: Anonymoose on Tue, 17 June 2014, 22:26:32: Spacebar is pretty easy to universalize with some sticky tack and stem harvesting. The shift can be a pain if you don't use a modifier pack of some sort, but the "0" or "+" keys from a numpad set tend to fit alright.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: rowdy on Tue, 17 June 2014, 22:37:02: Greens are close, but to me still noticeably lighter than BS.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: FrostyToast on Tue, 17 June 2014, 22:41:50: Still, nothing beats the feeling of BS springs. I suggest picking up a model m if you haven't already.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 17 June 2014, 23:29:20: I recommend beam spring as a good alternaive to buckling spring. It can be had in roughly 60% size.

Sadly, it's not modern :(

It's just the way the spring buckles that makes it so good. It's hard to emulate without a beast of a solenoid.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: mougrim on Wed, 18 June 2014, 00:39:14: There is NO alternative to buckling spring :)
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: muzzymurray on Wed, 18 June 2014, 00:57:12: Great, thanks so much for all the answers. Might have to check out the V60. I would pick up a model M, but I can't handle the footprint of those massive keyboards.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Wed, 18 June 2014, 01:08:42: I think Matias is closer than any MX to buckling spring. But yeah, Model M's are kinda big, not that I care, as I'm typing on my 1394540.

Quote from: muzzymurray on Wed, 18 June 2014, 00:57:12
Great, thanks so much for all the answers. Might have to check out the V60. I would pick up a model M, but I can't handle the footprint of those massive keyboards.

If M's are too big, then I guess an Aircraft Carrier is out of the question.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 18 June 2014, 01:09:48: Quote from: muzzymurray on Wed, 18 June 2014, 00:57:12
Great, thanks so much for all the answers. Might have to check out the V60. I would pick up a model M, but I can't handle the footprint of those massive keyboards.

Look for an SSK - TKL version of Model M.

Or the Kishaver, if you want a BS 60%.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: mougrim on Wed, 18 June 2014, 01:10:08: Quote from: muzzymurray on Wed, 18 June 2014, 00:57:12
Great, thanks so much for all the answers. Might have to check out the V60. I would pick up a model M, but I can't handle the footprint of those massive keyboards.

Get two - V60 and a buckle spring keyboard. I love both my AT Model F and Poker II with blues.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: Pacifist on Wed, 18 June 2014, 01:11:07: After trying greens today, I can say that IMO greens are somewhat similar to model M and nowhere similar to model f
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: mougrim on Wed, 18 June 2014, 01:43:54: Quote from: Pacifist on Wed, 18 June 2014, 01:11:07
After trying greens today, I can say that IMO greens are somewhat similar to model M and nowhere similar to model f

Yep, Model F switches lighter with more crispy soung, right?
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: Defect on Wed, 18 June 2014, 06:53:56: My two cents: MX green is the closest stock MX switch to BS, but really falls short in comparison.

Greens try to mimic BS within the constraints of MX's linear design. Creative design, but entirely different and it shows (feels)
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 19 June 2014, 07:54:21: Quote from: mougrim on Wed, 18 June 2014, 01:43:54
Quote from: Pacifist on Wed, 18 June 2014, 01:11:07
After trying greens today, I can say that IMO greens are somewhat similar to model M and nowhere similar to model f

Yep, Model F switches lighter with more crispy soung, right?

They feel lighter, but actually still actuate at the same force.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: mougrim on Thu, 19 June 2014, 08:03:14: Quote from: dorkvader on Thu, 19 June 2014, 07:54:21
Quote from: mougrim on Wed, 18 June 2014, 01:43:54
Quote from: Pacifist on Wed, 18 June 2014, 01:11:07
After trying greens today, I can say that IMO greens are somewhat similar to model M and nowhere similar to model f

Yep, Model F switches lighter with more crispy soung, right?

They feel lighter, but actually still actuate at the same force.

But they still feel lighter than my Unicomp board. Maybe it's all about sound...
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: Hypersphere on Thu, 19 June 2014, 08:06:07: Topre is not linear. There is a tactile bump.

Cherry mx greens are nothing like the sound and feel of either membrane buckling springs (as in IBM Model M boards) or capacitive buckling springs (as in IBM Model F boards), except that they click and are relatively heavy.

If you want a compact board with very definite aural and tactile feedback, take a look at the Matias Mini Tactile Pro. However, this board is designed for the Mac. There is a PC version with silenced Matias switches.

Recently, I have switched, at least temporarily, from the HHKB Pro 2 to an IBM XT, which is a Model F with capacitive buckling springs. The XT has a more metallic and definitive click than any Model M I have tried. However, in order to use the XT with a modern computer, you need a converter, such as Soarer's Converter or a Hagstrom converter box.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 19 June 2014, 09:08:53: Hmm.... I believe a Kishsaver with replacement controller would fit the bill... It's a big bill, though.

Or this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=59677.0

I don't think anything other than buckling spring feels or sounds like buckling spring. HHKB Pro is not linear, but rather collapsing rubber dome over conical spring, with capacitive sensing. Any Cherry MX, Alps style or buckling spring board will feel different to the HHKB. Buckling spring is probably the "most different", so it's worth pursuing. Everyone who claims to have an interest in mechanical keyboards should at least try a buckling spring board.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: vivalarevolución on Thu, 19 June 2014, 10:21:50: There is no alternative to buckling spring. It is the end all, be all of keyboards.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: quadibloc on Thu, 19 June 2014, 17:32:48: The MX Green may not be perfect, but if it comes closer than the ones that were available before, then having it as a new choice is a good thing, particularly as there are a couple of tenkeyless designs out there with the MX Green, whereas the tenkeyless version of the Model M is rare and expensive, since new ones are not being made. (One might dream of Unicomp making not only a tenkeyless but also a 60% someday, but it looks like that's only going to be a dream.)

However, from what I hear in this thread is that it really isn't any more tactile than the Cherry MX blue, it just requires more force to push it. If that's the case, compared to the Blue, the Green might be "closer" to the buckling spring, but not in the way that really matters.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: Daspartic on Thu, 19 June 2014, 17:49:21: Quote from: dorkvader on Thu, 19 June 2014, 07:54:21
Quote from: mougrim on Wed, 18 June 2014, 01:43:54
Quote from: Pacifist on Wed, 18 June 2014, 01:11:07
After trying greens today, I can say that IMO greens are somewhat similar to model M and nowhere similar to model f

Yep, Model F switches lighter with more crispy soung, right?

They feel lighter, but actually still actuate at the same force.
They do? I've never tested them, but it actually feels like it's around 50g to me.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 21 June 2014, 02:01:45: Quote from: dorkvader on Tue, 17 June 2014, 23:29:20
I recommend beam spring as a good alternaive to buckling spring. It can be had in roughly 60% size.
That’s right. If you want something small, a beam spring board is just the thing.
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/0/02/Displaywriter92.jpg)
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: mougrim on Sat, 21 June 2014, 02:13:45: Quote from: jacobolus on Sat, 21 June 2014, 02:01:45
Quote from: dorkvader on Tue, 17 June 2014, 23:29:20
I recommend beam spring as a good alternaive to buckling spring. It can be had in roughly 60% size.
That’s right. If you want something small, a beam spring board is just the thing.
Show Image
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/0/02/Displaywriter92.jpg)

Yep. Also if you want something thin to fit your table ;D
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 23 June 2014, 06:10:31: There's always the 122, I hear it feels great to use:

(http://i.imgur.com/NS7mw.jpg)

But seriously, this little enigma has me itching:

(http://i.imgur.com/Ic5vAQP.jpg)

I really would love to know more about it, but it's a bit like the Loch Ness monster only with better pictures. Apparently ClickClack found it in storage at work attached to a Signmaker machine.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: quadibloc on Mon, 23 June 2014, 06:27:13: I'm pretty sure that what ClickClack found was a rubber dome (or one with Cherry switches, perhaps even more likely for a short-run specialized keyboard), and that picture showing the buckling springs is of a mod some intrepid keyboard enthusiast (who affected an obsession with Zoë des Chanel... or was it Katy Perry?... while a participant here) performed on a Model M.

Ah, there's another thread here, "Mysterious Model M Mini on Reddit", which discusses that keyboard.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: Hypersphere on Fri, 05 September 2014, 08:25:57: Quote from: muzzymurray on Tue, 17 June 2014, 22:15:09
Hi,

I am currently using a HHKB pro2, which, as far as I know, is a linear switch type. I am interested in trying the other extreme, which seems to be model M bucking spring, where a reasonable amount of force is required to actuate the switch. I am a big fan of the 60% layouts so I am really interested in what modern switch type I could use in a 60% keyboard to get a similar effect.

Thanks

The HHKB Pro 2 is a Topre capacitive switch. It is not linear. It has a tactile bump arising from the sudden collapse of a rubber dome under each switch.

Although the Topre switch might seem vastly different from a buckling spring, my favorite keyboards are Topre-switch, such as the HHKB Pro 2 and RF 87u, and IBM capacitive buckling spring, such as the IBM Model F XT keyboard.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: 0100010 on Fri, 05 September 2014, 08:46:23: Ah yes - "The Grail."

From the original thread, that contraption Click Clack made to reach across the storage closet with a long clamp, tape and pencil seemed to indicate it was BS.

That sleek case, 60% layout, windowed caps lock.....

Drool.....
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: esoomenona on Fri, 05 September 2014, 09:57:08: Quote from: Hypersphere on Fri, 05 September 2014, 08:25:57
The HHKB Pro 2 is a Topre capacitive switch. It is not linear. It has a tactile bump arising from the sudden collapse of a rubber dome under each switch.

Although the Topre switch might seem vastly different from a buckling spring, my favorite keyboards are Topre-switch, such as the HHKB Pro 2 and RF 87u, and IBM capacitive buckling spring, such as the IBM Model F XT keyboard.

Under each cap, as the rubber dome (oops, cup rubber 8==D) is above the switching mechanism (spring pushed down changes capacitance).

But agreed on the switch types you've claimed favorite. They are mine as well. Though, I don't discriminate against good old fashioned BS as many others do.

Anyway, there is NO MX SWITCH that matches up to BS. You're best bet is to just grab a Model M. If your true desire is a smaller form factor, as many others have showed us, there is modification available to achieve that desire.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: JPG on Fri, 05 September 2014, 10:03:47: If you want to try the BS switch and manage to find one, I suggest trying the model F over the M. The biggest challenge will be the availability and the layout. The most interesting in this aspect with no modification is probably the AT model F. For you, since you would like a 60% the best would be a Kishsaver (60% model F), but they are VERY rare and the only that were made available recently all have an owner that won't let them go for cheap (none under 200$ for sure).

Still, if you can find a cheap model M or a cheap model F grab one and try it. You will see in an instant if you like it or not probably. Just be sure to take care of your wallet while doing so :p
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: Hypersphere on Fri, 05 September 2014, 12:22:08: Couldn't agree more about the fact that there is a substantial difference in sound and feel between Model F and Model M buckling spring keyboards. I started out years ago with a full-size IBM Model M and then got an SSK, which became my daily driver for a while. Then I found an IBM Model F XT for $19 on eBay. After connecting it to a Hagstrom converter, it worked just fine, but I decided to refurbish and convert it to USB anyway.

Using Soarer' converter, I remapped the keys on the XT to a hybrid Mac/HHKB layout. The layout is not ideal, but this is compensated by the excellent sound and feel of this keyboard. I also have an IBM Model F AT, which has a more favorable layout, but it is slightly larger than the XT and doesn't feel quite as solid.

I now have an IBM Model F 122 keyboard that I plan to restore and convert. The 122 will have a much more favorable layout than the XT and it is just as solid, although it is anything but compact.
Title: Re: Buckling spring alternative
Post by: johndavis33 on Sat, 06 September 2014, 11:21:26: I've typed on MX greens and BS a lot.

Greens are wayyyyy more tactile than MX blues, about clear level of tactility. They're a lot more high pitched in sound. IMO they're closer to buckling spring than Matias switches.

The difference is that in BS switches, the force constantly grows until you reach the actuation, where the force just kinda drops as the spring buckles. For greens, they're linear until you reach the bump, where the force spikes up a lot for a breif period, and then they return to feeling linear for the rest of the press.

When it comes to the math, yes, greens are about as stiff and tactile as buckling springs. But when it comes to how that tactile bump feels, they're entirely different.

I think your best solution is to get a v60 with greens and a model M, just to see how the M feels,