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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: obra on Thu, 19 June 2014, 15:35:19

Title: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: obra on Thu, 19 June 2014, 15:35:19
Kaia and I have been pretty nose-down working on Keyboardio at Highway1 (a hardware incubator) over the past few months. That's meant fewer blog posts and pretty much no time on geekhack.

Yesterday was Highway1's Demo day. I got up on stage in front of a bunch of journalists and investors and spent four minutes telling them that their keyboards suck ;)

And then I got to show them this:
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3887/14481345113_9d05bdc914_o.jpg)

GigaOM covered the event and said some nice things about us. http://gigaom.com/2014/06/18/a-connected-grill-smart-textiles-and-the-perfect-keyboard-make-up-highway1s-latest-startup-class/ (http://gigaom.com/2014/06/18/a-connected-grill-smart-textiles-and-the-perfect-keyboard-make-up-highway1s-latest-startup-class/)

(I know that 'the perfect' keyboard is a very subjective thing, but who am I to argue with GigaOM?
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 June 2014, 15:35:52
whoa cool
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 19 June 2014, 15:37:40
0/10. The butterfly shape needs to be switched to the heart shape  :p. Just kidding, the board is looking sharp!!
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: tribade on Thu, 19 June 2014, 15:42:49
Beautiful looking keyboard!  I doubt ergo keyboards will ever be for me, but that one sure makes them look a lot more tempting!
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: ninjadoc on Thu, 19 June 2014, 15:43:44
Very nice board!
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 19 June 2014, 18:58:22
That's excellent! I see a lot of great options there that would be wonderful.

I'll have to read those news stories, but I like much of the design aspects as-is right now. Lots of keys, lots of thumb / palm(?) modifiers, etc. Practically the only downside is the size, but the larger size allows for more keys, which is a benefit to some (I, for one, use a 122-key keyboard as my daily)
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 19 June 2014, 19:01:07
Um... hm............

does it need to be "that shape?" 

nothing wrong with butterflies, but is that appealing to the techno-neck-beards.
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: obra on Thu, 19 June 2014, 20:12:25
Um... hm............

does it need to be "that shape?" 

nothing wrong with butterflies, but is that appealing to the techno-neck-beards.

No keyboard is going to appeal to everybody. When it ships (with source code and a screwdriver), we'll be releasing measurements and cad models for the keyplates and PCBs inside. If you're not a fan of the gorgeous, precision-milled anodized aluminum + wood inlay look, you'll totally be able to mount it in another enclosure. Or in a desk. Or onto your chair. Or... :)
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: obra on Thu, 19 June 2014, 20:24:23
That's excellent! I see a lot of great options there that would be wonderful.

Thanks!


I'll have to read those news stories, but I like much of the design aspects as-is right now. Lots of keys, lots of thumb / palm(?) modifiers, etc. Practically the only downside is the size, but the larger size allows for more keys, which is a benefit to some (I, for one, use a 122-key keyboard as my daily)

Indeed. We need to start documenting more about the Model 01 design publicly. And yes, those are palm keys.

It's got 64 keys. And 64 individually sculpted keycaps. And an arduino-compatible Atmega32U4 logic board. And bluetooth. And I almost forgot to mention....64 individually addressable RGB LEDs mounted under them.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3839/14439540836_6f0b333b02_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nZYqqC)

We're definitely aware of the size/weight issue. Production should be a little bit smaller and a little bit lighter. And I want something that slips into my backpack easily. :)
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 19 June 2014, 20:25:14
backlit

whaaaaaaaaaat
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 19 June 2014, 21:01:53
Looking sweet! How did you make the keycaps?

-1 on the vim arrows though. :-P
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 June 2014, 21:11:28
they look like devlins, where did you get them made?
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: Justintoxicated on Thu, 19 June 2014, 21:14:53
Are those keys doubleshot?  Vertically stacked legends though?
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: obra on Thu, 19 June 2014, 22:17:25
Looking sweet! How did you make the keycaps?

-1 on the vim arrows though. :-P

We had help with the CAD. We got them made by a model shop in Shenzhen. They're CNC-milled out of polycarbonate, painted black and then laser-engraved. When made that way, they're about $400 a set.

The legends, I did up in Illustrator (In Gotham Rounded) and sent over. The production legends won't look the same, but for a very first pass, I'm pretty pleased with how they came out.
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: obra on Thu, 19 June 2014, 22:30:09
Vertically stacked legends though?

I'd love to see samples of _good_ legends with 3 symbols on the keytops
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: SonOfSonOfSpock on Thu, 19 June 2014, 23:53:47
Looks really nice. Are the two halves connected or totally separate?
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: obra on Thu, 19 June 2014, 23:59:12
Looks really nice. Are the two halves connected or totally separate?

Both, actually :)

Not quite ready to make the mechanism public, but it's pretty flexible and a lot sturdier than a ball joint.
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: davkol on Fri, 20 June 2014, 07:41:55
This keyboard shape actually reminds of this...
(http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/182/d/0/rainbow_dash__s_so_awesome_by_burningpersona-d55mgyz.png)
...SO AWESOME!!!1!
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: EvillePanda on Fri, 20 June 2014, 11:27:38
Man, between you and Axios...  /sigh.  Gonna have to get both.  No other way around it.
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: hoggy on Fri, 20 June 2014, 12:37:03
Man, between you and Axios...  /sigh.  Gonna have to get both.  No other way around it.
That's the spirit!
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: kurplop on Fri, 20 June 2014, 12:44:43
Good idea with the convex inner caps. Very nice combination with the wood/black keys/aluminum look.

Sorry you won't be in town for Keycon, I would have liked to meet you and your creation.

Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: nuclearsandwich on Fri, 20 June 2014, 13:27:29
I'm so pumped for this! Can't wait to add one to my collection.
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: vivalarevolución on Fri, 20 June 2014, 13:48:20
No big keys for the pinkies?

Overall, quite the evolution from the original design.  It's wonderful to see all these ergo designs coming out now.  Some will survive, some will fail, but all of us ergo fanatics will win.
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: tribade on Fri, 20 June 2014, 16:14:36
Seeing those other pictures of it, and how nice the LEDs look on it really made me want one!  Any ballpark what the retail will be on it?
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 20 June 2014, 18:46:04
Good idea with the convex inner caps.
I don't understand it.. Why?

Very sweet keycaps, still. I love how the index finger keys and pinkie keys are slanted.
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 20 June 2014, 18:57:21
Gigaom’s picture does a reasonable job showing the keycap shapes:
(http://i.imgur.com/dwfFBtC.jpg)
Crop:
(http://i.imgur.com/T6rjOEv.jpg)
But we want more pictures!
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: engicoder on Fri, 20 June 2014, 23:31:06
It's got 64 keys. And 64 individually sculpted keycaps. And an arduino-compatible Atmega32U4 logic board. And bluetooth. And I almost forgot to mention....64 individually addressable RGB LEDs mounted under them.

Are you using the ws2812 LED's?
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: obra on Sat, 21 June 2014, 00:27:14
It's got 64 keys. And 64 individually sculpted keycaps. And an arduino-compatible Atmega32U4 logic board. And bluetooth. And I almost forgot to mention....64 individually addressable RGB LEDs mounted under them.

Are you using the ws2812 LED's?

Ayup
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: kurplop on Sat, 21 June 2014, 11:25:33
Good idea with the convex inner caps.
I don't understand it.. Why?

Very sweet keycaps, still. I love how the index finger keys and pinkie keys are slanted.

Of course this is just my opinion, but where it makes a lot of sense to have distinct depressions on the keys above and below the home  keys, the high sides on the cylindrical caps could create a slight barrier when sliding fingers across  into non-home columns. This is especially true for those who keep their hands relatively low when typing. There may also be times when you may want to hit the center keys with the other hand making the convex top more appropriate.

You can see that he did the same thing with the thumb keys where the thumb would sweep across the keys and while the pinkie keys are cylindrical they are banked to better match the path of the finger.

I'm  speculating about his design and may well be wrong, but I went through that thought process while designing my latest keyboard and made some similar deviations from the norm.
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: vivalarevolución on Sat, 21 June 2014, 17:53:48
Also, I do hope you plan on updating the design.  At this point, the whole butterfly thing is most appealing to tweans.  Most gear nerds tend to be adult males, as you probably know.
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 21 June 2014, 18:51:26
At this point, the whole butterfly thing is most appealing to tweans.  Most gear nerds tend to be adult males, as you probably know.
Huh? I think it looks great. People who want their keyboards to look like transformer robots or 1960s typewriters already have plenty of options available.
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: vivalarevolución on Sat, 21 June 2014, 20:12:23
At this point, the whole butterfly thing is most appealing to tweans.  Most gear nerds tend to be adult males, as you probably know.
Huh? I think it looks great. People who want their keyboards to look like transformer robots or 1960s typewriters already have plenty of options available.

I'm just commenting from the cheap seats here.  I could see a lot of potential customers looking at a design that resembles a butterfly with all the dead space and being scared away because it might be too cute or whatever.  I know that you cannot please every customer, but my first reaction to the current design was "oh, a little too cute." 

Regardless of what I think of the design, I really hope this thing succeeds, makes it too market, and is profitable.  The amount of thought and tinkering going into this keyboard is phenomenal.  The creators seem well placed in the Bay Area tech scene, and I could certainly see that helping with the momentum.

I will be most interested to see what sort of things can be done with all the keys on the edges.
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: SonOfSonOfSpock on Sun, 22 June 2014, 13:04:06
I can't stop thinking of the Simpsons and "nobody ever suspects the butterfly"
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: obra on Wed, 25 June 2014, 15:52:11
And the video of my pitch is up!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h7mVu4ch6o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h7mVu4ch6o)
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 25 June 2014, 16:02:36
And the video of my pitch is up!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h7mVu4ch6o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h7mVu4ch6o)

Good stuff...

Did you guys set a price yet?

Will there be a budget version without the expensive case?

Does this fully come apart into two halves like the ergodox?
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: hoggy on Wed, 25 June 2014, 16:05:31
Congrats!  Looking good.
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: obra on Wed, 25 June 2014, 16:11:02

Good stuff...

Did you guys set a price yet?

Nope. We're going to make sure we know how much it will cost us to make it before we commit to a price. It's not going to be cheap. But it's also not going to be a µTron.


Will there be a budget version without the expensive case?

I don't want to make promises we can't keep. But we know the demand is there. And we want everyone to be using an amazing keyboard. If we can get to a reasonable volume, the case stops being the expensive part. Right now, it's kind of terrifying how much of the BOM (bill of materials) the bluetooth chip takes up.

And then there's the tooling cost for the 64 individually sculpted keycaps.

Does this fully come apart into two halves like the ergodox?

Yup! (We're not quite ready to show off how yet. But the two halves separate fully. And of course they have tripod mounts ;)
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: davkol on Wed, 25 June 2014, 16:17:47
This is serious. I'm going bankrupt soon. Axios, this, czarek's ErgoDox, the Atreus kit, my own project... T_T
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: Latin00032 on Wed, 25 June 2014, 18:02:47
It would be cool if it had an ergo curve to it.
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: EvillePanda on Thu, 26 June 2014, 08:45:40
Great video.  Really want this keyboard now. 
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: kebby on Thu, 26 June 2014, 11:32:11
Been eagerly waiting from the time the last prototypes were posted a long time ago and Model 1 certainly seems like it's worth the wait. Being able to split unlike the earlier prototype will help with pointing devices as well I guess.

I'm guessing that since it's such a modifiable product overall, the excellent stock keycaps could also be swapped.
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: obra on Thu, 26 June 2014, 16:10:51

I'm guessing that since it's such a modifiable product overall, the excellent stock keycaps could also be swapped.

Well, Alps caps are hard to find in the best of times. And we've been working with an 18mm spacing (based on a bunch of academic research and our own testing). But really, with a layout this different, traditional caps just feel odd.
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 27 June 2014, 15:07:30
You didn’t link your video here!

Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: obra on Fri, 27 June 2014, 15:47:11
You didn’t link your video here!


I totally did! http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=59722.msg1378045#msg1378045 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=59722.msg1378045#msg1378045).

I just suck at bbcode syntax :)
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 27 June 2014, 17:01:35
Oh, somehow I missed it here. Well anyhow, looks good! Have you figured out office space, etc. yet? :)
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: SonOfSonOfSpock on Fri, 27 June 2014, 23:32:07
What made you decide to go with Matias switches? Just curious if there is an ergonomic benefit or just personal preference.  I remember from your blog that you really liked cherry browns.
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: obra on Sat, 28 June 2014, 00:32:20
What made you decide to go with Matias switches? Just curious if there is an ergonomic benefit or just personal preference.  I remember from your blog that you really liked cherry browns.

Matias switches are pretty great. But we wouldn't have discovered how great they are if we hadn't run into Cherry's current one year lead time for new volume orders.
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: obra on Sat, 28 June 2014, 00:36:22
Oh, somehow I missed it here. Well anyhow, looks good! Have you figured out office space, etc. yet? :)

It looks like we're about to sign a lease for live-work space. :)
Title: Re: Super quick Keyboardio update.
Post by: vivalarevolución on Mon, 30 June 2014, 19:08:33
Did not notice the Matias switches.  Nice.