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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Bordrguy108 on Thu, 21 May 2009, 17:14:34

Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: Bordrguy108 on Thu, 21 May 2009, 17:14:34
Hey all,

First off, I just want to thank everyone who posts to this site. I have lurked around this site for a while now, but this is my first time posting. The information here is very useful and is what ultimately led me to buying my new keyboard and also leads me to my next point.

Yesterday I received my new Unicomp space saver keyboard and for the most part I am very satisfied. The buckling springs give a very nice response while typing and I am very happy that I am no longer forced to use a crappy rubber dome keyboard.

One thing I have noticed though is that a couple keys (my right shift key and the backspace key) seem to be bottoming out a bit more than the others making a loud clacking sound when I push them. Is there any thing I can do to make these keys feel and sound like the others?

I was thinking about popping them off and taking a look, but I am a little worried about damaging the keyboard. If anyone has dealt with a problem similar to this, I would be very appreciative to hear what you did.

Thanks!
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 21 May 2009, 17:23:30
I'd also try popping the keys off. Unlike many other keyboards, Unicomp does not use stabilizing bars under big keys (except space). Just get a flat-head screwdriver or a blunt knife, stick it under the key and yank it up. Sometimes reseating the key is enough to fix weirdness with it. The risk of breaking either the keyboard or the keycaps is negligible.
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: Bordrguy108 on Thu, 21 May 2009, 17:33:35
Thanks for the suggestion. I reset the keys, but they still seem to be doing the same thing.
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: Mercen_505 on Thu, 21 May 2009, 18:11:54
I had the same problem with my Unicomp made M4-1. The backspace, spacebar, and shift keys were insanely loud compared to the rest of the keyboard. The back row with the F-keys was dead silent. Everything else had a little noise to it. I eventually replaced it with a Lexmark made M4 and it's perfect. All the keys are seated properly and don't bottom out.

I tried using slivers of foam, and other assorted oddities, but anything that kept the keys from being noisy also made them mushy and unresponsive, so I just gave up. Perhaps you'll have better luck.
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 21 May 2009, 18:24:25
I had the same problem too. Two ways to solve it (both of which worked for me).
1) I went to my local hardware store and bought a small rubber washer which I put on the 'stem' (after popping the key off, the stem on the keyboard). This basically cushioned the landing.
2) alternately, put velcro (fuzzy side) down around the stem. This worked on the spacebar for me.

On my endurapro, I actually had the whole top row of alphabet keys sound different (and were louder) than the rest of the keys on the board. It was weird, maybe it was unique to my board. Anyway, 26 rubber washers later I was happy as a clam.
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 22 May 2009, 08:41:08
Quote from: wellington1869;92001

1) I went to my local hardware store and bought a small rubber washer which I put on the 'stem' (after popping the key off, the stem on the keyboard). This basically cushioned the landing.



Do you happen to have a picture of this ? I'm very interested in trying something like that.
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: o2dazone on Fri, 22 May 2009, 08:56:24
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?t=5450
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 22 May 2009, 09:16:13
Quote from: o2dazone;92064
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?t=5450


Thank you. I'll give this a try and see if it will dampen the overall noise of the keyboard, although I'm using my Customizer a lot these days.
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 22 May 2009, 13:55:53
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;92063
Do you happen to have a picture of this ? I'm very interested in trying something like that.


i bought pretty generic ones from the local hardware store. I basically measured the diameter of the stem, then went there and asked them if they had small rubber washers where the hole in the middle was around that diameter. They basically poked around and handed me the washers and I bought like 30 of them (they were like 7 cents each). They worked perfectly.

I've attached pics of what mine look like.
 (yea, my camera really sucks and I want a new one).

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2485&d=1243018392)

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2486&d=1243018474)
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 22 May 2009, 14:23:14
Quote from: wellington1869;92121
i bought pretty generic ones from the local hardware store. I basically measured the diameter of the stem, then went there and asked them if they had small rubber washers where the hole in the middle was around that diameter. They basically poked around and handed me the washers and I bought like 30 of them (they were like 7 cents each). They worked perfectly.

I've attached pics of what mine look like.
 (yea, my camera really sucks and I want a new one).

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2485&d=1243018392)


Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2486&d=1243018474)

Thanks. I'll take a key and head to Canadian Tire over the week-end.
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 22 May 2009, 15:30:20
Quote from: ripster;92122
Welly, that looks even more cushy than an o-ring.

You shoulda worked at the IBM Keyboard Design Center!  Give that Topre a run for the money in the "good feeling of oneness with cup rubber".


lol, but it needs to be at least that cushy to have an effect.  I actually tried those little tiny O-shaped rubberbands they have for people who wear braces, but they were way too small.  

I havent tried the o-rings linked above, but those might work if they're thick enough.  They do need to be a little thick otherwise you dont see any difference.
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 22 May 2009, 15:32:22
Quote
Thanks. I'll take a key and head to Canadian Tire over the week-end.



patrick - just to be clear, the washer needs to go around the opening on the keyboard, not on the stem of the key itself. (I tried it both ways, putting it on the stem of the key itself for some reason made no difference.)

I'm still not sure exactly where the 'contact points' are when the keys make their 'click' sound.  The BS system is still such a mystery to me sometimes ;)  Just adds to its mystique i guess ;)

But for the record the washers did absolutely reduce the "loud smack" on the backspace and other keys.
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 22 May 2009, 16:16:11
After wrestling with my (god-forsaken) camera's macro and manual focus "features", i managed to get some better shots of the washer.

Note how the washer "folds up on itself". This is a good thing. The washer is slightly too small for the bottom stem, so it 'folds up' when you stretch it to fit around the bottom stem.  Its good because this is what causes the reduction in the smacking noise. (It also happened to be the largest size washer they had in the store which looked like it might fit).  If the washer doesnt fold up like that, then the reduction in smacking noise doesnt happen.

Washer's dimensions:
inside diameter: 4/16" (or about 6.5 millimeters)
outside diameter: 1/2" (or about 13 millimeters)
thickness: 1/16" (or about 2 millimeters)
:)  Measured that with a micrometer ;)

So ya, you can try reproducing this on your keyboard, or maybe the O-rings mentioned above is a better idea. Basically it will take some trial and error, but the bottom line is that washers or o-rings can solve this problem quite well if you are willing to play around a bit and try different things with them.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2489&stc=1&d=1243029120)

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2487&stc=1&d=1243026874)

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2488&stc=1&d=1243026874)
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 22 May 2009, 16:37:03
Good thing you guys told me that. I would have tried on the the keycaps.
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 22 May 2009, 16:46:57
Quote from: ripster;92142
Don't rush off to Canadian Tire yet - I may have it wrong.  Those washers look a little small - maybe you have to stretch them to fit??

What IS a Canadian Tire anyway?   I imagine a big Donut tire on top of a warehouse filled with tires and potato chips.


LOL. I realized you guys might not have any idea what Canadian Tire is. It's a hardware store in Canada. One of the most successful store in Canada. Most men in Canada would ditch wives to go there :-)

http://www.canadiantire.ca/home.jsp?site=WebStore
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 22 May 2009, 16:52:53
patrick - see above, I added a picture of the rubber washer around the bottom stem in my previous comment.
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 22 May 2009, 16:53:32
Quote from: wellington1869;92145
patrick - see above, I added a picture of the rubber washer around the bottom stem in my previous comment.


I just saw that. Thanks.
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 22 May 2009, 16:57:15
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;92146
I just saw that. Thanks.


ok, but hit refresh one last time - i added a short description up there too ;D
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 22 May 2009, 17:01:21
Good job wellington. I'll give a try this week-end if I have some free time...I have to write my first assignment essay :-(
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 22 May 2009, 17:21:39
Quote from: ripster;92149
Now I see too.  That folding onto itself is kinda weird.  Sometimes these mods depend on luck.


ya, it was a total accident that that happened, but it kinda worked out really well, lol.
although i suppose i would have kept trying different kinds of o-rings and washers until something worked, since i was convinced a "slight cushion" could solve the problem.
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: Bordrguy108 on Sat, 23 May 2009, 15:51:00
Hey everyone, thank you very much for all the responses. I definitely think I'll give the rubber washers a try.
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 23 May 2009, 16:47:28
Quote from: ripster;92366
If your screen name means you're on the Canadian border you can meet up with Patrick at Canadian Tire.



Funny guy :-) You know Canada is a very big place, right? You made me think about some of the Molson Canadian beer commercial where the guy said, "No, I don't know Jimmy, Sallie or Suzy from Canada." :-)


Quote

Welly, now that you've rested after struggling with that camera it would be nice if you measured the washer inside and outside diameter pretty please.  I'm here trying to count columns on the Lincoln Memorial and it's not working.

I would not mind knowing the dimension too Wellinton. Thank you in advance.

Quote

And I think those Canucks have Maple Leaves (or was it  Queen Elizabeth) on the back of theirs.

Only on the $20 notes do we have Queen Elizabeth II.
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 23 May 2009, 18:20:18
Quote from: ripster;92379
This is the Molson commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7tJ4Mou9K0) I keep on my  Media Center PC to show Canadian guests my cultural sensitivity.

and I don't think the beaver is a proud and noble animal.....That's just too weird.


LOL!!!

It will take me a while to really feel Canadian. Don't get me wrong,  I do feel proud of Canadian accomplishments. However, having grown up in a different country, there is a conflicting "battle" going on inside my heat at times. My daughter will no doubt be Canadian in her head even if her parents were born and raised in a different country. When I became a Canadian citizen, my collegues bought me a Moson T-Shirt and called me the new Canuck :-)

I should cross the border some day. I have a relative in Atlanta. It will be nice to take my daughter to Disney Land too...when she gets a bit older. And of course, come back with a trunk full of keyboards.
Title: Unicomp Spacesaver bottoming out
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 23 May 2009, 21:50:47
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;92370

I would not mind knowing the dimension too Wellinton. Thank you in advance.


alright, here ya go:

inside diameter: 4/16" (or about 6.5 millimeters)
outside diameter: 1/2" or about 13 millimeters)
thickness: 1/16" (or about 2 millimeters)

:)  Measured that with a micrometer ;)
Title: Rubber O-Rings AS568# Size 110 for Reducing Buckling Spring Keys Bottoming-Out Noise
Post by: turkey on Fri, 11 November 2011, 23:40:52
Quote from: wellington1869;92401
alright, here ya go:

inside diameter: 4/16" (or about 6.5 millimeters)
outside diameter: 1/2" or about 13 millimeters)
thickness: 1/16" (or about 2 millimeters)

:)  Measured that with a micrometer ;)


To lessen the bottoming-out sound on my UNICOMP SpaceSaver 104-key buckling springs, I have used Size 110 o-rings made of 70-durometer, Buna-N rubber. Size specifications are as follows:-



The loud bottoming-out sound is caused by the edge of the circle on the bottom of the buckling spring keycap striking the support struts that extend perpendicularly from the base of the shaft housing the buckling spring, i. e., those little semi-circular nubs arranged roughly in a X-shape around the shaft). By putting an o-ring or dental band onto the shaft housing the buckling spring, the edge of the circle on the bottom of the buckling spring keycap will not strike the support struts directly when the key is bottomed-out. The larger surface area of the o-ring or dental band thus contributes significantly to the reduction of the sound produced when a key bottoms-out. The shafts housing buckling springs do not all have the same number of support struts extending from their bases — most have four, but some have three or two. As a result, not all of the keys on a buckling spring keyboard will have a loud bottoming-out sound.

When installing the o-rings, use a paperclip or some other tool to push them as far down the shaft housing the buckling spring as they will go — the goal is to get them touching the support struts before putting the keycap back on the shaft. In order to fully equip a standard 104-key buckling spring keyboard, you will require a total of 112 o-rings or dental bands. This is because there are 104 shafts with buckling springs inside them, and 8 empty ones.