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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: huha on Thu, 21 May 2009, 17:51:09
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I opened up my G80-3000LSCDE with blues some time ago, coming to the conclusion the springs need to be swapped for something giving the feel of greens. Which, as I might add, I found in the springs used for blacks.
Today, I dissembled the boards again to prepare for a little something I also wanted to do today, but didn't have enough time to, so it's scheduled for tomorrow. Anyway, I thought you'd be interested in some photos; I don't have anything with browns nor clears, so these are missing, but other than that, it's all there. From left to right: Blue, green, black, grey. Notice the plastic part is identical each time, so it's just the springs that need to be changed if you so desire. Modding a board from blue to green requires only a board with blacks and some patience--if you swap springs, the board with blacks gets a really light touch (giving reds, perhaps?); it's not as noticeable on the board with blues, but it's just a that little bit harder and clickier to make it really comfortable to use for a BS user.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2475&stc=1&d=1242945918)
-huha
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where do you get the switches to mod it?
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Good pic, thanks.
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where do you get the switches to mod it?
They were from a G80-3000 with linear switches, about the only boards you can get for really cheap in Germany.
Good pic, thanks.
I only hope the switches don't use ferromagnetic parts, as the springs are now slightly magnetized--they won't ever stay in place, so you have to use a magnet to hold them down.
-huha
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LOL - sorry - but that must have been a surprise when they started jumping around.
You're getting it wrong.--I used the magnet to hold them down, because they're so incredibly light even small vibrations or air currents will move them. It's nigh impossible setting up a photo with four springs aligned to a grid and for plastic parts; it was quite a hassle even with the magnet to hold them down.
So now, they're slightly magnetized and will attract each other, but I hope this doesn't impair switch performance and/or function.
But I once again saw how beautifully engineered these switches are. It's quite simple to be honest, but very effective and offers a great degree of variation and different actuation characteristics. I do have my gripes with case construction of Cherry's keyboards (as should already be known due to my voicing it whenever there's an opportunity, including now, I consider it to be utterly bad; it does the job, but that's about it; plus, it feels incredibly cheap--and, well, it IS!), but the switches are just a fine example of great engineering; you can really appreciate the great amounts of dedication that went into designing these switches.
-huha
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The plastic is different-- blue and green have a longer point at the bottom. Is that how the click is engaged?
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Yep thats where the switch pushes the gold lever. Basically the more steep the gradient the great the force to push, browns and blues therefore don't have continuous gradient which produces the drop of force once pushing through a switch, quite clever and neat really
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The plastic is different-- blue and green have a longer point at the bottom. Is that how the click is engaged?
No, the cylinder at the bottom is just a shaft of some sort (they're probably the same length, the picture has been taken at an angle), the sloping bit on the side, and on the blues and greens the sliding white bit, is the bit that produces the feel.
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Yep thats where the switch pushes the gold lever. Basically the more steep the gradient the great the force to push, browns and blues therefore don't have continuous gradient which produces the drop of force once pushing through a switch, quite clever and neat really
The design is really great. Well thought out and well executed. The "gold crosspoint" contacts are a nice marketing feature, but I think it's quite unlikely contacts in this place will oxidise when the board is used regularly.
No, the cylinder at the bottom is just a shaft of some sort (they're probably the same length, the picture has been taken at an angle), the sloping bit on the side, and on the blues and greens the sliding white bit, is the bit that produces the feel.
[edit]The shafts don't seem to be the same length, but they also don't need to. It's just the support for the spring, so it doesn't slide around and buckle. The big rectangular plastic parts protruding from the picture are the actual switch guide.
I wouldn't call it "feel"--greens feel differently than blues, yet share identical (as far as I can tell, though) plastic parts; the difference lies in the spring. I'd say the plastic defines the actuation characteristic and the spring defines the force required, thus in union defining the respective feel of the switch.
-huha
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Let's resurrect this older thread to clear up things for clears with materials linked in the wiki. Here are some macro shots of black, clear, brown and blue stems:
http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_cherry_mx.htm
Stems with accompanying springs (not very highly resolving, unfortunately) can be seen here:
http://blog.dengzhe.com/attachments/month_0805/9200852019150.jpg
You can see clearly that browns and clears are quite different. The clears' wider tactile point is reflected in the stems. The spring might be the one used in blacks or possibly a bit stronger still.
Now I finally understand how these switches work. A pretty neat construction I'd say.
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Interesting stuff.
How does the click work in the green and blues? I notice that the thing they have in common is that the plunger is made up of the top coloured piece and a lower clear piece. Do these two pieces slide against each other and somehow create the click?
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Interesting stuff.
How does the click work in the green and blues? I notice that the thing they have in common is that the plunger is made up of the top coloured piece and a lower clear piece. Do these two pieces slide against each other and somehow create the click?
There is an illustration down towards the bottom of this page: http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_cherry_mx.htm. The white slider moves past the tactile point, "falls" down and clicks when it hits the bottom.
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good pics huha.
maybe this thread needs to be linked in the cherry wiki entry
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maybe this thread needs to be linked in the cherry wiki entry
No worries, it already is.
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Let's resurrect this older thread to clear up things for clears with materials linked in the wiki. Here are some macro shots of black, clear, brown and blue stems:
http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_cherry_mx.htm
Stems with accompanying springs (not very highly resolving, unfortunately) can be seen here:
http://blog.dengzhe.com/attachments/month_0805/9200852019150.jpg
You can see clearly that browns and clears are quite different. The clears' wider tactile point is reflected in the stems. The spring might be the one used in blacks or possibly a bit stronger still.
Now I finally understand how these switches work. A pretty neat construction I'd say.
Ah, good. The blues and greens are designed to *guarantee* that the tactile and audio feedback exactly coincide with electrical contact being made. Also there is hysteresis - the break point is higher than the make point.
In other words - just like buckling springs! Maybe they should be combined in the poll, :lol:.
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In other words - just like buckling springs! Maybe they should be combined in the poll, :lol:.
In that case one could lump them together with the Alps, too. :D
Do you happen to know any tactile or clicky switch where tactile point and activation do not coincide? Apparently that's the case for the clicky Acer modules. Looking at the operating points in the force displacement diagrams, all the common Cherry switches seem to be designed such that they fire with almost absolute certainly once you're past the tactile point.
The only downside of the construction is that you only get both hysteresis and click or none. It's not like I'd have had many issues with key bounce on other switch types though.
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Do you happen to know any tactile or clicky switch where tactile point and activation do not coincide?
Well, my NIB Dell AT102W (Black Alps) that I'm using now is not perfect at making them coincide. You can make some keys register without passing the click, you can make some keys click without registering. If you try, that is.
I'm guessing Cherry Browns can't always do a perfect job either.
Unless there is some kind of catastrophic event (spring buckles, or lower part of slider shoots down, etc.) you can't guarantee they coincide.
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Actually, that second pic was real interesting because it had the springs next to the switches. Huha's didn't have the browns.
Just ask for it.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3758&stc=1&d=1250205992)
MX browns vs. blues
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3759&stc=1&d=1250206003)
MX greys (brown) vs. MX greys (black). Sorry for the absolutely lousy picture.
If the colours are right (which they aren't on this picture), you can tell them apart, as the shades of grey differ ever so slightly.
-huha
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I wonder whether the grey spacebar switches are the same for browns and clears. They almost have to be. The one in a board with clears doesn't look like a 105 cN type, and 80 cN is plenty high enough anyway. Makes you wonder why they didn't do a matching type for browns or at least used regular clears.
Incidentally, black switches have been the most keycap-pulling friendly types on Cherry board here. Can anyone confirm?
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Hmm... those brown and blue springs look the same. Maybe all the other junk makes the blues a little harder to press. In any case Welly I think the key to lighter Ms would be tighter coils.
Or more precisely, more coils for the same spring length and strength.