geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: fohat.digs on Wed, 16 July 2014, 22:10:31

Title: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: fohat.digs on Wed, 16 July 2014, 22:10:31
It has been a while since NMB Hi-Tek aka "Space Invaders" aka "Angry Bear" switches have been discussed here directly as a topic of their own.

They seem to be gathering attention in the "Great Finds" section, so perhaps we need a current thread to discuss opinions, desires, observations, criticisms, etc, so I am starting this one.

Personally, I love the switch since it is very secure without discernible wobble, activates high up, and seems to have a solid long life, wear-wise at least.

On the down side, they are a nightmare to work with, clean, adjust, replace, etc, for a variety of reasons mostly revolving around the complexity of design and delicacy of the parts.

Being a lover of tactile and clicky switches, I find the black ones to be exquisite, but I am rather indifferent to the whites.

PS - I have a couple of incomplete "donor" boards that I might be willing to sell and/or I may be able to help with a few spare parts, but don't ask to buy a big load switches or caps.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: fohat.digs on Wed, 16 July 2014, 22:10:42
Reserved

I will put together a small chunk of a board with a few trial switches and send it out on tour, if there is any interest. PM me with your address, and there are only 2 rules: (1) don't hold it for an unreasonable time before sending it on to the next person, at your expense, and (2) please do not remove the key caps! I will include "naked" switches so that you can see what is inside.

It would be for feel only, non-functional. It will be small and light so that it can be put in an envelope and mailed for <$5 so there is not all the cost and aggravation of packing and shipping actual keyboards around.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Defect on Wed, 16 July 2014, 22:40:54
What causes the click?  Crisper than Alps?

Actuation force?
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 16 July 2014, 23:20:55
Thanks for starting this thread, fohat. I also really like the black clicky Space Invaders. I only learned about them a few years ago. I guess the complexity of the switches contributed to the lack of popularity when they were being manufactured in the 80s and 90s?

I have a few Space Invader boards and hope to contribute some photos and info to this thread when I have a bit of time.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Wed, 16 July 2014, 23:29:14
There's an arm that follows a track, and when you push it through the track it ends up hitting a side, which is the click. Clicky space invaders is the reason I never really used my blue MX and eventually sold it.

I want an example of the tactile space invaders, I managed to miss the one that went today.

I will add that I'm not a super big fan of linears in general, but if someone does like them linear space invaders are amazingly stable and smooth. I haven't tried them on something I can use yet though, but that's what came in my televideo which I'm going to put clicky SI into and then use Soarer's Controller in some manner.

Personally I've not really had a problem as far as delicacy goes, but I use a PCI slot as a key puller, and pop it off from one of the sides. They don't come apart very often.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: fohat.digs on Thu, 17 July 2014, 07:27:32
I have half a dozen Hi-Teks in various states of repair and disrepair. I am trying to work my way through them to get one (possibly 2) really nice ones and sell off the rest.

There is a lot of frustration involved in identification, particularly the black ones, so here are the labels of the 4 blacks I own:

Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: dante on Thu, 17 July 2014, 11:52:54
Are there any Number Pads w/ Space Invader switches?
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Techno Trousers on Thu, 17 July 2014, 13:07:02
I've never seen a standalone number pad with SI switches. AFAIK, the only keyboard manufacturer that used SI switches is NMB. So you can keep an eye out on ebay for any numpads by NMB and try your luck if you find one. To have a possibility of SI switches, it will need to have been manufactured before 1995 or thereabouts.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Thu, 17 July 2014, 17:18:50
What causes the click?

Linkies:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/NMB_Hi-Tek (still needs a lot of work)
http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/nmb.html

NMB Hi-Tek variation is worse than Alps SKCL/SKCM!

I want an example of the tactile space invaders, I managed to miss the one that went today.

I'll be interested to see what you make of them. From what I recall reading, they're good, but 002 has one and finds it prone to binding.

I never realised that the tactile mechanism was on display on MouseFan's site; basically, the contact leaves are folded back inwards and the separator bar on the slider catches on these folds on the way down.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: fohat.digs on Thu, 17 July 2014, 19:36:44

I'll be interested to see what you make of them. From what I recall reading, they're good, but 002 has one and finds it prone to binding.

the contact leaves are folded back inwards and the separator bar on the slider catches on these folds on the way down.


That is a fair assessment, the craftsman in me makes me wonder why someone would invent such a complex mechanism with parts so easily damaged if they have to come apart and go back together.

I suppose that keeping the aspects discreet from each other makes it possible to eliminate wobble on the main line.

My (Apple)-ANSI-black project is finished and working. It all seems very stiff, I hope that a break-in period will smooth things out.

The spacebar spring seems like triple the weight of the others!
 
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 17 July 2014, 20:11:11
If you are going to do a tour of NMB Space Invader switches, I'd be interested. I only tried some form of tactile switch which I didn't like.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Sun, 20 July 2014, 21:28:54
You should post pictures of the ANSI-Apple board, fohat. Possibly of the process as well if you have any. The spacebar weight is why on both of mine that I dyed/painted I just moved the spacebar switch elsewhere.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: do_Og@n on Sun, 20 July 2014, 23:13:20
I'm glad I came across this thread. I have two different boards with NMB Clicky switches. I'll try to get some picture of them up once I have them out of storage.

I love them and have taken both of them apart. Which is not an easy task and as difficult as they are to take apart they are equally as difficult to put them back together. I'll be modding one of them with lubrication to see if that will improve how good they feel. It will take a lot of lube (he he he) because there are more points to lubricate than Cherry MX but I think it will be worth it.

Can't wait to see more opinions on them.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 20 July 2014, 23:18:03
The space invaders board I got from fohat.digs is excellent. Some of the best construction I've seen in a "common" kb. The PCB is a work of art, the keycaps are beautiful dyesub PBT, the feel is extremely linear without wobble: overall excellent! Sometimes it;s hard to believe such a wonderful switch type arose from the same company that did the older hitek switches that are so awful.

Some downsides:
very fragile with top removed (which sometimes comes off with the keycap)
does not appear to be NKRO ?
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: fohat.digs on Sat, 16 August 2014, 19:10:26
Here is an overview of the ANSI-layout NMB Hi-Tek that I got. There has been some discussion elsewhere so I thought that this might be the best place.

The keyboard came with white (linear) Space Invaders and I transplanted black (clicky) ones into it. I harvested them from an old board and several of them do not feel "right" so I plan to replace about a dozen.

They seem heavier and scratchier so I figure they probably have dust or grit inside. The switches are so insanely complicated that I don't want to mess with trying to take them apart for a good clean and lube.

My real problem now is that I am an old man and I seriously cannot read the legends in less than perfect lighting without taking an effort to focus. I am a near-touch-typist and all that, but I do not touch type all the ancillary keys. Also, I often work in very dim lighting.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 17 August 2014, 03:09:51
Despite the silly skinny legends, that board looks great!
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 17 August 2014, 10:15:44
Thanks. In real life use, the legends are far worse to read than they look in the photos.

It took some work to clean it up, and I painted the plate my trademark green.

The keyboard itself is almost exactly the size, weight, and configuration of the Apple Extended Keyboard.

How could you search for this since it just looks like "RT101"? I have had dozens of keyboards of all types from many manufacturers with that number.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 17 August 2014, 14:14:15
sadly this is the only other reference to that part number (910007) I could find:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=8643.0

Based on the description, it appears to be the same KB.

memory4less may or may not have one http://www.memory4less.com/m4l_itemdetail.aspx?itemid=1456954556
They're pretty bad at pictures.

The "NMB number" doesn't want to return anything useful.

Searching for '0600002 keyboard,' it seems Code micro might have one as well: http://www.codemicro.com/store/product/ncd-0600002-refurbished so might these guys (http://www.tbnonline.com/Inventory.jsp?Command=showItems&Value=0600002) in NJ.

Sadly, refurbished parts vendors are the only results often. Some people think it was made by NCD (whoever they are)
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 17 August 2014, 15:24:17
I will be opening it up do do some more work sometime soon.

This may help a bit.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 17 August 2014, 15:51:04
I will be opening it up do do some more work sometime soon.

This may help a bit.


Sadly I don't think so:
(http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/review/files/attach/images/42106/622/288/001/RT101+_12.JPG)
from here (http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/review/1288622)
The NMB 115499 part number on the PCB was also used for the normal fatass enter key RT101 we all know and love.
Looking at the back, it seems they used the same PCB for both. There's an unused switch location where the \| key is on yours.

Typical NMB, they have thought ahead
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Sun, 17 August 2014, 15:55:55
That guy has posted amazing photos — he needs to put them all on the wiki!!
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 17 August 2014, 16:33:42
There's an unused switch location where the \| key is on yours.

What! Wow! Really?

Now I have to look at my other board - if I could mod a bigass Enter / small Backspace to get an ANSI board, I would be delighted!
 
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 17 August 2014, 18:47:22
There's an unused switch location where the \| key is on yours.

What! Wow! Really?

Now I have to look at my other board - if I could mod a bigass Enter / small Backspace to get an ANSI board, I would be delighted!
 
You'll have to mod the plate to add a hole for the \| key (the enter key switch location appears to be in the same spot regardless) but check out this picture:
(http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/review/files/attach/images/42106/622/288/001/RT101+_09.JPG)
It's not a big pic, but there's a clear space above enter. It also looks like you can play games with the backspace.


Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Mon, 18 August 2014, 00:47:55
If that's true of all of them, then the problem beyond creating the proper holes on the plate (possibly by just creating an entirely new plate), is of getting the 2x backspace keycaps and the rest of the few keys needed to create full ANSI.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Imperator on Mon, 18 August 2014, 23:10:37
I'm typing on one at the moment. I've really got to get me another one, though. The 'a' key is slowing going out and trying to fix these things is a nightmare all on its own. It's got the split space bar key too which I love.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: do_Og@n on Mon, 18 August 2014, 23:42:15
I'm typing on one at the moment. I've really got to get me another one, though. The 'a' key is slowing going out and trying to fix these things is a nightmare all on its own. It's got the split space bar key too which I love.

I have a similar one which I have torn apart and will be cleaning, lubing, and painting. I only wish there was a way to make one into a TKL. I'll be sure to upload photos as I take them.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 03 September 2014, 21:59:57
I think clicky space invader switches would make great mouse buttons.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Shayde on Thu, 04 September 2014, 00:21:20
I haven't had a lot of luck with Space Invader switches, though these were the whites.  I had them in an A2000 keyboard that wasn't that old when I bought it, but the switches were pretty finicky.  I became a key slammer because it seemed to improve somewhat the chance a key will register properly.  But every now and then one would just stop working and I'd have to rip the cap off and play with the contacts to get the switch working again.

Then I worked at place that used these same switches on an NCR terminal keyboard and had the exact same problems.

Both keyboards were high usage ones, but even so you'd expect them to go for more than a year before problems show up.  Based on a sample size of two, those switches were unreliable and frustrating.  Can't say I miss them.

Never tried blacks though.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: ShawnMeg on Sun, 14 September 2014, 22:00:33


Interesting that the list price of the keyboard was $37.00 back in the 1990's.  It was budget priced compared to a lot of other designs (e.g. Northgate OmniKey T $129.00)

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Hypersphere on Sun, 14 September 2014, 22:12:38
I was glad to see this thread. I just received an NBM 122-key with black clicky space invaders. I haven't yet had time to clean it up and test it.

Questions:

1. This board has a direct PS/2 connector -- can it be outfitted with a Teensy and Soarer Converter so that I could remap the 122 keys to my liking?

2. The board has an ISO layout. Is it possible to convert it to ANSI? If so, how difficult would this be?

Thanks.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 14 September 2014, 23:03:48
For those of you who had an opportunity to compare this switch to other clicky switchs (Model F capacitive buckling spring, Cherry MX Blues/Greens, and White Alps), what are your thoughts on the space invaders?  I've listened to a couple online videos posted, and the Space Invaders sound clickier.
Clicky space invaders are fairly similar in feeling to clicky SMK switches (e.g. “monterey” blue Alps-mount ones), but with less travel and a bit less click of a slightly different sound (since their click is caused by plastic hitting plastic rather than metal hitting plastic). They’re less clicky than e.g. amber Omrons. They’re clickier than Cherry MX blue or green switches and I like them substantially better. They’re quite different from (and not really easily comparable to) buckling springs.

If you like clicky Cherry switches, you’ll probably really like them, but you might not; people have different preferences.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 15 September 2014, 02:58:00
Interesting that the list price of the keyboard was $37.00 back in the 1990's.  It was budget priced compared to a lot of other designs (e.g. Northgate OmniKey T $129.00)

(Attachment Link)

Those prices are weird.

It's also interesting though that even a PC magazine was noting the difference between "membrane" (i.e. rubber dome over three-layer membrane) and conductive dome (over …? Over PCB or over a single membrane layer?)
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Hypersphere on Fri, 26 September 2014, 16:24:48
I found two boards in my collection that have NMB Hi-Tek switches; one with white (tactile) and one with black (tactile and clicky) mechanisms. Both feel like true tactile switches, and I like them much better than any Cherry mx switch I have tried (I've tried blue, black, brown, green, and clear).

Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Touch_It on Fri, 26 September 2014, 19:00:10
Using both black space invaders and "Monteray" switches as daily drivers I can sAy that I like them both but I do find them very different in a few ways. The space invaders feel way more solid in reference to wobbling.  Keyboard is also way heavier and solid.  When it comes to feel and noise the actuation force feels quite high, similar to an ibm model m imo.  The clicking noise is pretty loud and seems to have a higher pitch than Monteray switches if you don't bottom out.  The Monteray switches have lighter actuation force and a deeper click, very similar imp to me Blues.  The final diference would be the tactile force.  With space invaders it is definitely there and with Monteray switches its there but less pronounced.  Overall I would say Monteray blues are easily my favorite but I like them both.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Mon, 06 October 2014, 18:13:01
here is my NMB AQ6RT-72511/RT101+ with grey space invaders- tactile only and very nice :cool:

these switches are unbelievably nice not to mention the board itself.

fohat............you are dead on with squaring up when trying to remove a cap. the top of the switch always stays in place and does not come off!

great advise and thank you
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 06 October 2014, 18:40:20
so jealous!

I really like NMB quality. If you don't take the switches apart, they protect the fragile contacts quite well. The switch itself responds well to off axis hits, is inherently much more linear than most, and the dyesub PBT keycaps are great.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: fohat.digs on Mon, 06 October 2014, 18:41:38

squaring up when trying to remove a cap. the top of the switch always stays in place


When removing key caps, I prefer a wire puller and grab opposite diagonal corners and pull straight up.

This * DOES  NOT  WORK * with NMB Hi-Tek "Space Invaders" although it works great with everything else.

There is an "under-carriage" that holds the key cap and is also the top component of the switch body, and it has notches under the diagonal corners, too. If you grab diagonally under the corners with a wire puller, you are almost sure to pull it off, along with the key cap. The internal spring is likely to jump away, too, and you have to be very careful when you put it all back together.

The solution is to remove the key cap from the sides, only, straight up, and avoid the corners.

Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: MahBoi on Mon, 06 October 2014, 19:23:49
I love the clicky Space Invader switches. They have a soft click and lack a lot of the extra noise that comes with other mechanical keyswitches. Also, the keys do very well with off-center hits. The particular keyboard I have has the split spacebar where one side can be used as a backspace, which I've grown rather fond of.

Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Mon, 06 October 2014, 20:01:09
yea............the PBT keycaps are very nice and like fohat says squaring up the wire puller on the cap vs removing diagonally.

i really am fond of these boards and you never have to worry about me taking these switches apart-- to high for my pay grade :eek:

i saw one of the NMB's with the space bar/back space..........on ebay, made the seller an offer, but could not pay with shipping what he wanted- maybe next time

congrats to mahboi on a nice board.

dorkvader............don't you have one with the beige switches?



Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: phoenix1234 on Mon, 06 October 2014, 20:27:12
I saw the weakness of NMB space invader when I used it a few year back. That's why I wrote my bad experience based on my broken NMB keyboard (still keep the keycap set though, love it  :p)

We all know about its strong, the superior PBT dyesub keycap set on amazing tactile clicky feeling key switch. However, dust and moisture may easily leak into the two exposed bass leaves. As a result, the key switch is lacking of protection against undesirable action from users. Incorrect keycap removal method or incorrect cleaning key switch method may destroy the clicky action completely or change the clicky sound or key switch feeling to something extremely ridiculous. The key switch is very vulnerable with RP7, WD40 or any kind of wet lube because the key switches are opened to the air. The more it gets wet, the more dust will stick on it. So after I destroyed my lovely NMB keyboard, three important things that I have learnt:

+ avoid removing the keycap as long as possible.
+ keep the key switch as dry and clean as possible. Don't try to lube it with any kind of wet lube. Just only use vacuum cleaner (lower power) to suck the dust out.
+ don't try to touch, pull, bend or fix the two bass leaves

Don't get me wrong on this. I really love the keyboard. Actually, I will buy a new NMB again if I have a chance. I just want to write about it weakness so it may help someone not to face the same case like me.

edit: spelling correction
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Mon, 06 October 2014, 20:46:18
I saw the weakness of NMB space invader when I used it a few year back. That's why I wrote my bad experience based on my broken NMB keyboard (still keep the keycap set though, love it  :p)

We all know about its strong, the superior PBT dyesub keycap set on amazing tactile clicky feeling key switch. However, dust and moisture may easily leak into the two exposed bass leaves. As a result, the key switch is lacking of protection against undesirable action from users. Incorrect keycap removal method or incorrect cleaning key switch method may destroy the clicky action completely or change the clicky sound or key switch feeling to something extremely ridiculous. The key switch is very vulnerable with RP7, WD40 or any kind of wet lube because the key switches are opened to the air. The more it gets wet, the more dust will stick on it. So after I destroyed my lovely NMB keyboard, three important things that I have learn:

+ avoid removing the keycap as long as possible.
+ keep the key switch as dry and clean as possible. Don't try to lube it with any kind of web lube. Just only use vacuum cleaner (lower power) to suck the dust out.
+ don't try to touch, pull, bend or fix the two bass leaves

Don't get me wrong on this. I really love the keyboard. Actually, I will buy a new NMB again if I have a change. I just want to write about it weakness so it may help someone not to face the same case like me.

i don't see anything wrong with your post and appreciate the wealth of info, especially about the not lubing due to dust, etc. sticking to the innards- makes sense to me

i like direct and to the point
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: MahBoi on Tue, 07 October 2014, 10:43:10
I saw the weakness of NMB space invader when I used it a few year back. That's why I wrote my bad experience based on my broken NMB keyboard (still keep the keycap set though, love it  :p)

We all know about its strong, the superior PBT dyesub keycap set on amazing tactile clicky feeling key switch. However, dust and moisture may easily leak into the two exposed bass leaves. As a result, the key switch is lacking of protection against undesirable action from users. Incorrect keycap removal method or incorrect cleaning key switch method may destroy the clicky action completely or change the clicky sound or key switch feeling to something extremely ridiculous. The key switch is very vulnerable with RP7, WD40 or any kind of wet lube because the key switches are opened to the air. The more it gets wet, the more dust will stick on it. So after I destroyed my lovely NMB keyboard, three important things that I have learnt:

+ avoid removing the keycap as long as possible.
+ keep the key switch as dry and clean as possible. Don't try to lube it with any kind of wet lube. Just only use vacuum cleaner (lower power) to suck the dust out.
+ don't try to touch, pull, bend or fix the two bass leaves

Don't get me wrong on this. I really love the keyboard. Actually, I will buy a new NMB again if I have a chance. I just want to write about it weakness so it may help someone not to face the same case like me.

edit: spelling correction

This is all very good to know along with everything else in this thread. Thank you for the information!
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Mon, 13 October 2014, 14:18:02
cleaned it up, so here you go

it has no label, but looks like a Phillips 2812

linear white space invaders (hi-tek)

the caps lock was cemented down, stuck so i took apart, cleaned and voila!

they are very smooth...........more so than reds
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 13 October 2014, 14:58:01
Wow! You have the mysterious Gundam switches!

MouseFan posted a photo of a single switch, and its origin has remained a mystery ever since.

What year is shown on the PCB? It should be four 7-segment digits at the bottom of the underside of the PCB, representing YYWW (you can see this on the wiki page for the Philips P2812).

I believe that this is the very first design of this switch; that's a very early keyboard (no integrated LED switches) and the Gundam design matches the 1984 patent (something I never spotted before). Your PC should read a year close to 84.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: nubbinator on Mon, 13 October 2014, 16:05:49
Wow! You have the mysterious Gundam switches!

MouseFan posted a photo of a single switch, and its origin has remained a mystery ever since.

What year is shown on the PCB? It should be four 7-segment digits at the bottom of the underside of the PCB, representing YYWW (you can see this on the wiki page for the Philips P2812).

I believe that this is the very first design of this switch; that's a very early keyboard (no integrated LED switches) and the Gundam design matches the 1984 patent (something I never spotted before). Your PC should read a year close to 84.

Should be similar to mine. (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33130.msg1450817#msg1450817)
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 13 October 2014, 16:26:52

dorkvader............don't you have one with the beige switches?




I just have this one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dork_vader/sets/72157642928081893/
Switches are like this:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7269/13415580333_dc5b1b55d7_o.jpg)
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: fohat.digs on Mon, 13 October 2014, 16:33:08
The cleanliness of that board!

Every Hi-Tek I have seen has been filthy and all but impossible to clean!
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 13 October 2014, 18:09:38
Curses, so no year printed on the Gundam version! Unbelievable.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Mon, 13 October 2014, 18:49:48

dorkvader............don't you have one with the beige switches?

I just have this one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dork_vader/sets/72157642928081893/
Switches are like this:
Show Image
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7269/13415580333_dc5b1b55d7_o.jpg)


dude............that thing is clean!

Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 13 October 2014, 19:15:17

dorkvader............don't you have one with the beige switches?

I just have this one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dork_vader/sets/72157642928081893/
Switches are like this:
Show Image
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7269/13415580333_dc5b1b55d7_o.jpg)


dude............that thing is clean!



Yeah it's awesome. Extremely linear, sweet layout, lots of keys. It appears to be unused and everything has been lightly oiled. I forget if I got it from fohat.digs or eBay. I would dearly love to get it working on USB.

I also really want to try a tactile one for a length of time to see how it's like.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 13 October 2014, 19:28:38
I also really want to try a tactile one for a length of time to see how it's like.
I got a tactile one from ebay (122-key layout) in rough condition. The keys use very stiff springs and I don’t find the switches especially pleasant. I can sell it to you if you want! :p
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Mon, 13 October 2014, 19:47:13
so the single eye are linear and the double eye are clicky?

i can't remember.............
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 13 October 2014, 19:51:30
so the single eye are linear and the double eye are clicky?

i can't remember.............

Mine has both and they are all linear. You can see in the picture.

Well the capslock is latching so I guess it's not linear but still.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Mon, 13 October 2014, 19:53:33
so the single eye are linear and the double eye are clicky?

i can't remember.............

Mine has both and they are all linear. You can see in the picture.

Well the capslock is latching so I guess it's not linear but still.

my bad..........i'm not very swift, just caught both in your picture

now i know
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 13 October 2014, 20:19:15
The tactile one I have (model number PC122-XT) is all tactile grays, except the spacebar which is a pea-green very heavy linear switch. All two eyes but much skinnier eyes on the green switch.

What I can't figure out is why anyone wants such heavy switches. These things are definitely heavier than MX clear switches, and heavier than brown Alps. Are there lighter-weight tactile space invaders?

Anyhow, I don’t like the tactile version as much as the linear or clicky versions, even ignoring the heavy springs. It seems to be tactile via a similar mechanism to MX: via extra plastic-on-plastic friction, which IMO just isn’t very pleasant. (Edit: it might be extra metal-on-plastic friction, apparently; either way, it’s not the same kind of tactile as e.g. an Alps or SMK switch, and I’m not a fan.)

Nice keycaps though.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 13 October 2014, 20:21:26
The tactile one I have (model number PC122-XT) is all tactile grays, except the spacebar which is a pea-green very heavy linear switch. All two eyes but much skinnier eyes on the green switch.

What I can't figure out is why anyone wants such heavy switches. These things are definitely heavier than MX clear switches, and heavier than brown Alps. Are there lighter-weight tactile space invaders?

Anyhow, I don’t like the tactile version as much as the linear or clicky versions, even ignoring the heavy springs. It seems to be tactile via a similar mechanism to MX: via extra plastic-on-plastic friction, which IMO just isn’t very pleasant.

Nice keycaps though.

WAIT
there's a clicky one? Now I want to try that instead!
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 13 October 2014, 20:24:22
WAIT
there's a clicky one? Now I want to try that instead!
Um..?

The clicky black ones are the ones that everyone (e.g. fohat) likes.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Mon, 13 October 2014, 20:25:00
The tactile one I have (model number PC122-XT) is all tactile grays, except the spacebar which is a pea-green very heavy linear switch. All two eyes but much skinnier eyes on the green switch.

What I can't figure out is why anyone wants such heavy switches. These things are definitely heavier than MX clear switches, and heavier than brown Alps. Are there lighter-weight tactile space invaders?

Anyhow, I don’t like the tactile version as much as the linear or clicky versions, even ignoring the heavy springs. It seems to be tactile via a similar mechanism to MX: via extra plastic-on-plastic friction, which IMO just isn’t very pleasant.

Nice keycaps though.

the one in the picture i just uploaded are smooth like reds, but much heavier

i guess the grey tactiles are a little heavier than i thought, but i still like them

so what then the blacks are the lightest?
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 13 October 2014, 20:28:58
the one in the picture i just uploaded are smooth like reds, but much heavier

i guess the grey tactiles are a little heavier than i thought, but i still like them

so what then the blacks are the lightest?
I’m not sure if all the gray switches are the same spring weight. Anyway, the clicky black ones I’ve tried are much much lighter than the tactile gray ones I’m looking at right now, comparable to blue SMK “monterey” or blue MX switches, I’d say.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Mon, 13 October 2014, 20:37:50
the one in the picture i just uploaded are smooth like reds, but much heavier

i guess the grey tactiles are a little heavier than i thought, but i still like them

so what then the blacks are the lightest?
I’m not sure if all the gray switches are the same spring weight. Anyway, the clicky black ones I’ve tried are much much lighter than the tactile gray ones I’m looking at right now, comparable to blue SMK “monterey” or blue MX switches, I’d say.

no..............your right, i love my grey tactiles-- but now that you say something they are a tad heavier than i realized. i have big hands so maybe they do not bother me as much?

my blacks are very light
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Tue, 14 October 2014, 12:31:37
(Edit: it might be extra metal-on-plastic friction, apparently; either way, it’s not the same kind of tactile as e.g. an Alps or SMK switch, and I’m not a fan.)

The switch has two sprung contacts that are held apart by a bar in the slider; depressing the slider lowers the bar and allows the contacts to close. With the tactile switches, there are kinks in the contacts that the (much thinner) separator bar catches on; the tactile peak is caused by the slider bar making its way past the kinks.

Some people like them, some people hate them. The force may depend on what switch it is, as there are different colours of tactile switch. The colours and eyes are widely available knowledge, but the force is rarely if ever measured. The nature of the large number of switch variants is not well understood.

so the single eye are linear and the double eye are clicky?

See here:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/NMB_Hi-Tek#Variations

Variations is by switch type, followed by a listing by colour. The colour and the number of eyes both matter. (Does anyone know what the eyes even do?)
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Tue, 14 October 2014, 13:18:08
i would not mind finding a beige, but heard they are pretty heavy
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: fohat.digs on Tue, 14 October 2014, 17:31:13

everyone (e.g. fohat) likes.


OMG!

I have always considered myself to be the "odd duck"
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Tue, 14 October 2014, 17:33:37
WAIT
there's a clicky one? Now I want to try that instead!
Um..?

The clicky black ones are the ones that everyone (e.g. fohat) likes.

Yeah, that's been the main type being discussed, mainly because it's the most plentiful. That's what I'll be putting into my Televideo before adding a Teensy. If the matrix is anything like the ones the switches are gonna come from I'll probably just wire it up instead of doing a full handwire.

I do want to try the tactile still.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Wed, 15 October 2014, 12:00:59

everyone (e.g. fohat) likes.

OMG!

I have always considered myself to be the "odd duck"

well..........if you think you are the only odd duck

quack quack
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Wed, 15 October 2014, 12:03:11

everyone (e.g. fohat) likes.

OMG!

I have always considered myself to be the "odd duck"

well..........if you think you are the only odd duck

quack quack

here...........this is better

(http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/344/9/5/underrated_duck_daze___the_best_of_quack_pack_by_devilkais-d6xdumg.jpg)
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Wed, 15 October 2014, 17:11:57
I just noticed — Nubbinator's one only says "Hi-Tek" on it, which suggests that it predates Hi-Tek getting involved with NMB.

Technically these switches shouldn't be called "NMB Hi-Tek", as they're are a Hi-Tek patented design. It would be interesting to confirm that the Gundam ones have no mention of NMB anywhere on them at all. The next stage was Hi-Tek on the exterior and NMB only listed on the PCB alongside Hi-Tek, before Hi-Tek started being listed as a division of NMB.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Wed, 15 October 2014, 17:12:16
BTW, I thought the odd duck was webwit?
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: fohat.digs on Tue, 21 October 2014, 20:34:22
Today I received my first "ring" key puller.

Although I will not be using it much for other keys, it is perfect for Hi-Tek Space Invaders.

Clip the sides and avoid the corners.

Highly Recommended.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Tue, 21 October 2014, 20:39:16
no kidding...........?

thanks for the stealth- will have to get me one

this is one of my favorite threads
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Tue, 21 October 2014, 21:41:54
i'm guessing this is probably rubber dome since it ends with a t, but the RT101+ always drives me nuts?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-NMB-Technologies-Model-RT101-AQ6ZG-RT6271T-5-Pin-Wired-Clicky-Keyboard-RARE-/271468542311?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item3f34c93967

Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 21 October 2014, 21:45:21
i'm guessing this is probably rubber dome since it ends with a t, but the RT101+ always drives me nuts?
Judging from the look of the keycaps, I’m pretty sure it’s a rubber dome.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Wed, 22 October 2014, 02:44:36
RT10x got split up. RT10x/RT8xxx is mechanical. From what I can tell, RT10x/RT6xxx is the rubber dome version. In fact, RTNxxx where N != 8 is always rubber dome, so far as I know. Both mechanical and rubber dome started out RT10x, and they were renumbered as RT8xxx (mechanical) and (it appears) RT6xxx (rubber dome) to avoid confusion.

See: http://deskthority.net/wiki/NMB_Keyboards

We believe "T" just means "tactile", including space invaders.

What I specifically want, is at least one (preferably two or more) documented examples of keyboards like the one above (RT6xxx), but a photo gallery in a safe place (preferably the wiki, but NOT eBay as auction listings and photos don't stay around) proving that RT6xxx is rubber dome, and illustrating whether it's plain dome (integrated mount) or NMB dome with slider. Also, a comparable example of a rubber dome RT10x showing the dome type (sliders or no sliders).

That way, we can say for certain which number series the rubber dome RT10x became.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Touch_It on Wed, 22 October 2014, 14:19:04
Great for typing on.  Bad for playing any fast paced gaming because, at least with mine (Black 2 big eyes), you have to release the key fully before you can hit it again.  (hyper-stasis might be the word for this).  Originally hated the boards for that + the fact that I tend to type heavy and they really fatigued my fingers.  I use them at work though and are pretty satisfying.  No wobble on the keys sans space enter shift etc in witch they have an "acceptable amount" of wobble. 

In my personal opinion though SMK alps mount "Monteray" switches are hands down better in every way even in a flimsy keyboard case with sub par keycaps.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 23 October 2014, 16:40:16
122-key XT keyboard. Heavy tactile gray switches (personally I don’t like these much) + even heavier linear pea-green switch:

(http://i.imgur.com/WZfn1dr.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/ygGwMbs.jpg)
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Thu, 23 October 2014, 17:10:12
^^ → wiki page.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 23 October 2014, 20:50:51
Totally standard ANSI (no big enter key) 101-key Televideo terminal keyboard, white space invader switches, NIB. I guess it does have an 8u spacebar and small Alt keys, so not precisely like a Model M.
(http://i.imgur.com/ApPzryu.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/AMOu308.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/JnArHJb.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/xsyiJKn.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/zSZmu7S.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/px066Fj.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/D3G7nMj.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/XAsIvRe.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/R79cCUX.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/49doAqh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/nJgm0nf.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/1jKgHIx.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/aAb4AdH.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/24FRli5.jpg)
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Thu, 23 October 2014, 20:56:08
woa........... :eek:

that is one nice board- looks like pbt caps?
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 23 October 2014, 21:12:12
All the space invader boards I’ve seen are PBT caps. These are nice dyesubs.

The case is a bit flimsy (as you can see, it’s just two pieces of plastic). Otherwise the board is great, for what it is.

First changes I would make if redesigning it: (1) include a split spacebar, or at least something smaller than 8u, (2) Use a shorter right shift, since these hi-tek stabilizers for 2.75u shift keys kinda suck; (3) put a lighter switch under the spacebar.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: fohat.digs on Thu, 23 October 2014, 21:42:41
The case is a bit flimsy (as you can see, it’s just two pieces of plastic).

That is kind of disappointing. The ancient Televideo that I parted out had a truly awesome case.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 24 October 2014, 02:04:21
Someone on Reddit found another of those condensed-green-on-beige ANSI boards:
https://imgur.com/a/q9p9C

(Though those look a lot more beige than they should, because the exposure and white balance are pretty far off.)
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 28 October 2014, 17:14:31
I’ve been using a clicky space invader board today (and very much enjoying the feeling, since I swapped out the ridiculously heavy spacebar spring with the spring on another key), and noticing that it actuates just slightly prematurely. That is, actuation comes a bit before the tactile/click point. Not nearly as bad as clicky Omrons, but still a bit annoying. Alps and SMK switches don’t seem to have this problem at all.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 28 October 2014, 17:22:52
Alps and SMK switches don’t seem to have this problem at all.
My experience with SMK ("monterey") blue switches as well as ALPS in general has been decidedly different than yours.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 28 October 2014, 18:04:36
My experience with SMK ("monterey") blue switches as well as ALPS in general has been decidedly different than yours.
You get pre-click actuation with Alps or SMK switches?
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 01 November 2014, 04:37:49
A guy who likes white space invaders:
http://www.johnbear.net/symbolics-keyboard-paper/MacIvoryKeyboard.pdf

Discussion of this document (currently not much there):
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65048
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Sat, 01 November 2014, 17:27:31
I really have no clue who makes this board?

I thought white with 2 eyes were clicky, but this one is linear

board is pretty much like new- just a little dust, weird layout but it is AT

(http://i.imgur.com/UNpv3ZD.jpg)
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Sat, 01 November 2014, 17:29:48
The colour—eye count combinations are not unique. White with two eyes can be linear or clicky :-P
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Sat, 01 November 2014, 17:31:49
I really have no clue who makes this board?

I thought white with 2 eyes were clicky, but this one is linear

board is pretty much like new- just a little dust, weird layout but it is AT



i've tried loading the picture but the site will not let me...........errpr

whats up with thaT
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Sat, 01 November 2014, 17:39:45
I really have no clue who makes this board?

I thought white with 2 eyes were clicky, but this one is linear

board is pretty much like new- just a little dust, weird layout but it is AT



i've tried loading the picture but the site will not let me...........errpr

whats up with thaT

i had to upload to imgur to get it to load, would not upload from my computer............errors from GH site
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: fohat.digs on Sat, 01 November 2014, 18:59:32
The colour—eye count combinations are not unique. White with two eyes can be linear or clicky :-P

What? I thought that white was always linear.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Sat, 01 November 2014, 19:01:04
Nope:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/NMB_Hi-Tek#Colours
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: dante on Tue, 04 November 2014, 08:23:52
Just a crazy thought - not really an IC or something to be built...

What do you guys think about a custom space invaders tenkeyless/40%/60%?  And because the huge enter small backspace is a problem for many - just using alternative switches for those keys - either MX Clears/Whites/Greens or White/Matias Clicky Alps.

Yes ... it's silly.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Tue, 04 November 2014, 10:18:30
Just a crazy thought - not really an IC or something to be built...

What do you guys think about a custom space invaders tenkeyless/40%/60%?  And because the huge enter small backspace is a problem for many - just using alternative switches for those keys - either MX Clears/Whites/Greens or White/Matias Clicky Alps.

Yes ... it's silly.

silly here is cool........... :cool:

elaborate, tease us some more :eek:

be interesting to see what pcb and plate you are going to use?
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: dante on Tue, 04 November 2014, 10:41:54
Just a crazy thought - not really an IC or something to be built...

What do you guys think about a custom space invaders tenkeyless/40%/60%?  And because the huge enter small backspace is a problem for many - just using alternative switches for those keys - either MX Clears/Whites/Greens or White/Matias Clicky Alps.

Yes ... it's silly.

silly here is cool........... :cool:

elaborate, tease us some more :eek:

be interesting to see what pcb and plate you are going to use?

I'm not planning anything like that - it's a 'pipe dream' just to see how many people would accept alternative switches on those specific keys.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Tue, 04 November 2014, 13:06:40
I'm not planning anything like that - it's a 'pipe dream' just to see how many people would accept alternative switches on those specific keys.

Why alternative switches? Just because you'd have to use another brand of keycap?
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: dante on Tue, 04 November 2014, 13:18:19
I'm not planning anything like that - it's a 'pipe dream' just to see how many people would accept alternative switches on those specific keys.

Why alternative switches? Just because you'd have to use another brand of keycap?

Read what I wrote above.  Not everyone is into the large Enter, small Backspace.  As far as I know there are no alternative Space Invader mount keycaps for those switches.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 04 November 2014, 13:30:01
I'm not planning anything like that - it's a 'pipe dream' just to see how many people would accept alternative switches on those specific keys.

Why alternative switches? Just because you'd have to use another brand of keycap?

Read what I wrote above.  Not everyone is into the large Enter, small Backspace.  As far as I know there are no alternative Space Invader mount keycaps for those switches.

there's at least one that fohat has, but according to him the font is ugly.

I really like the font and hope to get one like that eventually.

If you look at the PCB, there are holes for a normal enter and backspace, but the plate doesn't accept it of course.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Tue, 04 November 2014, 13:30:21
That is what I was trying to clarify — you were not specific about it. The keycaps certainly exist though:

http://deskthority.net/review-f45/nmb-rt-102-with-clicky-space-invaders-t8469.html

However, you'd have to find broken examples of such keyboards. Apparently the "+" in model numbers (e.g. RT101+) refers to the large enter key that you don't want, so avoid those.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Tue, 04 November 2014, 13:35:01
I suspect the hard part will be finding an ANSI space invader keyboard — I am not sure I've ever seen one.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 04 November 2014, 13:37:55
I suspect the hard part will be finding an ANSI space invader keyboard — I am not sure I've ever seen one.
Did you miss this, upthread? http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60707.msg1513316#msg1513316

dante: I’d recommend using either SMK clicky switches (“monterey blue” or the MX-mount ones) or MX blue/green on the enter and spacebar(s) if you need to match Hi-Tek clicky switches. Clicky Alps switches aren’t going to feel like they match, I expect.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Tue, 04 November 2014, 13:40:56
I don't remember everything. If you guys would bother putting all this on the wiki we'd have somewhere reliable to look it all up instead of having to revert to Google in the hope we might be able to find something.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 04 November 2014, 13:59:35
I don't remember everything. If you guys would bother putting all this on the wiki we'd have somewhere reliable to look it all up instead of having to revert to Google in the hope we might be able to find something.

if I can figure out how to get pictures up on the wiki, I'll be adding all the info on that new arabic unitek dah-yeng) KB
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Tue, 04 November 2014, 16:22:34
Behold, the documentation:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Help:Uploading_images
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 10 November 2014, 14:22:16
Got a keyboard with “Gundam” style linear space invaders. PCB says “NMB” and “HI-TEK CORPORATION” on it.

The most interesting thing IMO is that these keycaps don’t have the little grabber clips, but only the diagonal corner ridges, so they’re much easier to remove than later space invader keycaps.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 10 November 2014, 14:50:58
Production dates on the PCB and ICs?
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 10 November 2014, 15:26:26
No case, and no dates on the PCB, but the ICs are all 83/84.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 10 November 2014, 15:47:18
So now we just need the IC dates from the ones that don't say "Hi-Tek Corporation" on them.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: nubbinator on Fri, 14 November 2014, 19:56:39
I got some in the other day (linear white and tactile black) and will be taking pictures of them soon.

Pro-tip: If you get a board with the caps with the little legs on the side, use a ring type puller and don't pull straight up, but slightly to the side.  You won't ever have an issue with the switch top coming off with the cap.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 14 November 2014, 20:08:59
Pro-tip: If you get a board with the caps with the little legs on the side, use a ring type puller and don't pull straight up, but slightly to the side.  You won't ever have an issue with the switch top coming off with the cap.
The way I pull these is with a butter knife or similar sturdy flat piece of metal. You want to pry upward from under one side (side, not front/back) of the keycap while pushing sideways from the other side of the switch. In other words, push the keycap in the direction of the side that you’re prying up from the bottom. One of the little clips that hold the keycap down will snap free (the one on the side you’re prying), and then you can pretty easily push the keycap back the other way to disengage the other clip.

This is probably easier to demonstrate than to explain in words. :-)

I’ve found the most efficient way to remove a bunch of caps is to do them in batches: first unclip one side of the keycap for (e.g.) every other keycap, then come back and lift those all off, then unclip the rest, then lift those off. It’s actually pretty fast once you get a system going.

Of course, the easiest is if you have the old “Gundam” style of switches; then the caps don’t have the little clips at all and you can just lift them straight off.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: fohat.digs on Fri, 14 November 2014, 20:19:04
I use the wire pullers (my Leopold is my favorite), and grab opposite corners, for everything else, but for Hi-Teks the kind that can grip the sides of the keys are the best. Avoid the corners of Space Invaders.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-White-Keycap-Puller-keypuller-for-gaming-keyboard-Filco-Cherry-Noppoo-PBT-/121315722001?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3efb0311 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-White-Keycap-Puller-keypuller-for-gaming-keyboard-Filco-Cherry-Noppoo-PBT-/121315722001?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3efb0311)

Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: nubbinator on Fri, 14 November 2014, 20:24:50
I've tried the wire puller from the corners, the ring puller is faster.  With the ring puller, you're literally rocking it one side then the other. It pops the cap off in seconds and is the fastest way to pull Space Invaders caps that I know of.  The one you linked to would be perfect.

Jacobulus, it's basically doing what you're doing, but it one fluid motion.  You rock to the side, then the other or pull up and it pops off.  I get each cap off about the same speed as a Cherry cap and faster than Alps caps or Topre.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 15 November 2014, 02:11:20
Erase-ease in the mail http://www.ebay.com/itm/291296707809?orig_cvip=true

I’m going to try to make a custom space invader board with a layout similar to this https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56095.msg1384819#msg1384819 (some keycaps won’t be the right legends; I might just dye many (or all) of them dark black and have them be blanks).

By the way the same seller has a non-erase-ease keyboard, quite yellowed, for cheap: http://www.ebay.com/itm/291296711230
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Sat, 15 November 2014, 09:36:19
which are the gundam style switches again?

anybody gotta a link?
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: nubbinator on Sat, 15 November 2014, 09:56:31
which are the gundam style switches again?

anybody gotta a link?

The "soap dispenser" version:

(http://i.imgur.com/4ZdXn62.jpg)
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: terrpn on Sat, 15 November 2014, 14:14:15
ooohhh, i just got one of those, looks like an F XT

very smooth
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: XMIT on Tue, 02 June 2015, 11:38:53
Hello GH - klikkyklik sent me a PM asking about how to remove Space Invaders key caps. I wrote him a long response and thought I would share it here:

What jacobolus said is mostly correct. Though, you'll have a tough time with a ring style puller on wider keys. Plus the nubs on the ring style pullers wear pretty quickly.

Your very best bet is a Topre style stainless steel puller. That should work nicely. I usually use a wire key cap puller.

But yes: if you pull straight up you will remove the slider and possibly lose the spring and damage the hands. This is bad. Instead you want to roll the key cap off of the slider. I wouldn't use a rocking motion so much as a rolling motion.

I usually hold the key cap puller with the handle straight up and down (north/south) aligned with the center line of the key cap. Get the wires just barely under the left and right hand sides of the keycaps: enough to get a good grip but no more. Apply upward pressure until both wires have tension in them but not so much that you remove a key cap. Then, while still maintaining upward pressure, start moving the key cap puller to the right, rotating around the point where the right wire touches the key cap. lifting only the left wire.

That overly complicated explanation is, IMO, the best way to do it.

Watch out for the space bars. Most of the stabilized keys just pull right off. But the space bar uses something like a Costar mount. You may end up pulling inserts out of the sides of the spacebar on the underside of the spacebar. Be careful!
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: Altis on Tue, 02 June 2015, 22:52:05
XMIT, I also found the metal keycap puller easier to use. This is because the keycap and the slider are both flush at the bottom. I used the metal one and just grabbed the very edges and pulled up (not squeezing it all the way) and found this worked really well. Tough to explain.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: chyros on Wed, 03 June 2015, 03:13:44
With some practice, you can use wire pullers to more or less "roll" the caps off the sliders. Sometimes you can get it loose enough to pull it off yourself, sometimes it just comes off completely.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 05 June 2015, 04:40:07
For space invader switches, I’d skip the puller, and just use a single butter knife (or some similar flat piece of metal that won’t accidentally scratch the keycaps). The trick is pushing sideways and downward on one side of the keycap while prying upward on the opposite side. You can’t really effectively do that with any kind of standard keycap puller.

If you try pulling the caps upward with a standard keycap puller you’ll either break the plastic clips on the keycaps, or yank the slider out of the switch.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: hkrak on Fri, 05 June 2015, 04:58:34
For space invader switches, I’d skip the puller, and just use a single butter knife (or some similar flat piece of metal that won’t accidentally scratch the keycaps). The trick is pushing sideways and downward on one side of the keycap while prying upward on the opposite side. You can’t really effectively do that with any kind of standard keycap puller.

If you try pulling the caps upward with a standard keycap puller you’ll either break the plastic clips on the keycaps, or yank the slider out of the switch.

I use the exact same tool and method, minus the pushing sideways and downward part. Works great.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: fohat.digs on Fri, 05 June 2015, 07:11:33
For me, the hard part to re-learn was to avoid corners. On other styles, I always use wire pullers and try to get the wire well under opposite diagonal corners.

Absolutely the wrong thing to do with Hi-Teks - avoid the corners or you will be grabbing the wrong pieces. Only pressure the flats.

Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: chyros on Fri, 05 June 2015, 11:05:57
For me, the hard part to re-learn was to avoid corners. On other styles, I always use wire pullers and try to get the wire well under opposite diagonal corners.

Absolutely the wrong thing to do with Hi-Teks - avoid the corners or you will be grabbing the wrong pieces. Only pressure the flats.
I'm not sure exactly what corners you're referring to but I've found that if you use wire pullers to pull off the far corners of the key CAPS (so not the sliders) it's pretty easy to dislodge the caps without pulling the slider.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: jerue on Fri, 05 June 2015, 22:02:02
Before joining GH, I found an RT-101 for .54 at a thrift store. I cleaned/disassembled it and played around with actuation forces and whatnot (all beige switches w/pink for lock switches and green for spacebar). The Green space invader is probably one of my favorite switches...it's too bad I had no idea how to pull off the spacebar and ended up destroying the switch beyond repair. Then I did something even worse...and threw the whole board away. Caps and all. I now realize the grave error I made  :-\ :(

I'll have to post some pics soon. Even did the good ol' nickel trick as shown from...that other forum.
Title: Re: NMB Hi-Tek Space Invaders discussion topic
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Sat, 06 June 2015, 00:45:02
I use a PCI slot cover. Just pry em up from the sides.

Not sure how you destroyed the spacebar, I can pull that with just fingers. And yes, throwing it away was a travesty. That even sounded fairly rare, all of mine are clicky black besides the white linear I also have.