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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: berserkfan on Tue, 22 July 2014, 16:28:57

Title: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: berserkfan on Tue, 22 July 2014, 16:28:57: I have gotten interested in getting some custom plates done so that I can have switch moddable stuff.

Am hoping to do some switch moddable plates for JIS boards, Tipro keyboards, etc.

Not knowing CAD or other softwares, may I ask how you guys get your custom plates measured and cut? What are the issues involved? What do I need to download/ learn/ do in order to (EG I understand that aluminium, carbon steel, stainless steel and acrylic all have different properties and prices, but what I don't know if whether they make much difference when you are typing.)
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 22 July 2014, 17:03:38: I need to add the cutout for the controller still.

Anyone know what the measurements for the stem spacing is on a JIS 4.5-unit spacebar?

(http://i.imgur.com/2NzqtVF.png)
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: geniekid on Tue, 22 July 2014, 20:34:19: JD's a whiz at this kind of thing (and kind enough to give out designs), but you should still learn some basic CAD especially if you get the itch to design other things (like your own cases) one day. I think it's the kind of thing where you can learn a lot on your own, especially with the aid of the Internet :) You don't even have to pay for CAD software - qCAD or LibreCAD are free and adequate. Emachineshop and BigBlueSaw both offer their own CAD programs that come with tutorials and offer tight integration with the cutter/miller.

I leveraged a lot of the resources from the GH CAD hub thread here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47744.0). The Phantom plate files are a little out of date but they're a great starting point. There's also a lot of info as far as measurements go there.

As far as materials go, there's trade-offs between all 4. With acrylic you'll need 4-5mm of thickness or there will be noticeable flex. Aluminum will be the cheapest 1.5mm plate you can cut but you will need adequate stand-offs and/or fastening points to the rest of the case to prevent flex. Stainless/carbon steel will be the most rigid, but the most expensive to cut. If you want color in your plates, acrylic has "natural color", aluminum can be anodized, and stainless will have to be painted.

Keep in mind that one-off cutting jobs are going to be expensive, even from companies that cater to hobbyists. Measure everything twice. Compare your measurements against existing designs and against existing PCBs/plates you have. Be able to explain every discrepancy.
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 22 July 2014, 21:59:04: Quote from: jdcarpe on Tue, 22 July 2014, 17:03:38
Anyone know what the measurements for the stem spacing is on a JIS 4.5-unit spacebar?

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/2NzqtVF.png)

Not sure if this (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Space_bar_dimensions) would be the same as a standard JIS layout but I found it along with a bunch of other sizes.
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 22 July 2014, 22:03:49: Quote from: Melvang on Tue, 22 July 2014, 21:59:04
Quote from: jdcarpe on Tue, 22 July 2014, 17:03:38
Anyone know what the measurements for the stem spacing is on a JIS 4.5-unit spacebar?

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/2NzqtVF.png)

Not sure if this (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Space_bar_dimensions) would be the same as a standard JIS layout but I found it along with a bunch of other sizes.

I bet that has to be it. SP would have made that 4.5-unit SA profile space bar for the Filco High Profile set at Diatec.

Thanks for the link, Melvang!
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: berserkfan on Tue, 22 July 2014, 23:39:07: JD: yes, Filco uses 4.5x for most normal JIS layouts. They also have a smaller 3.0x size for the Filco JIS Minila. Really don’t know where they get that space bar though.

Geniekid, thanks! The names you have furnished are useful starting points.

Why do you say the Phantom plate files are out of date? Are they working or not working, that’s my main concern.

Acrylic plate: how can you mount a switch on acrylic plates? The 4-5mm thing will be way too much, surely!

Do you think a 1mm stainless steel plate would be a good mix of rigidity and price? I don’t bang on my keyboard and don’t need anything ultra rigid. I just want something significantly less flimsy and cheap sounding than a Cherry PCB.

Measurement: would vernier calipers be enough? Do you have any advice? (I haven’t used them for 30+ years!)

Lastly:
Design my own case? NEVER. That way lies the path to madness and bankruptcy. I would end up wasting a lot of time designing lots of cases and spending lots of money on them.
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 22 July 2014, 23:51:48: Quote from: berserkfan on Tue, 22 July 2014, 23:39:07
JD: yes, Filco uses 4.5x for most normal JIS layouts. They also have a smaller 3.0x size for the Filco JIS Minila. Really don’t know where they get that space bar though.

Geniekid, thanks! The names you have furnished are useful starting points.

Why do you say the Phantom plate files are out of date? Are they working or not working, that’s my main concern.

Acrylic plate: how can you mount a switch on acrylic plates? The 4-5mm thing will be way too much, surely!

Do you think a 1mm stainless steel plate would be a good mix of rigidity and price? I don’t bang on my keyboard and don’t need anything ultra rigid. I just want something significantly less flimsy and cheap sounding than a Cherry PCB.

Measurement: would vernier calipers be enough? Do you have any advice? (I haven’t used them for 30+ years!)

Lastly:
Design my own case? NEVER. That way lies the path to madness and bankruptcy. I would end up wasting a lot of time designing lots of cases and spending lots of money on them.

At least with a 3 unit space bar the stabilizers from 2 unit keys will be compatible.

With the 4-5mm thick acrylic plates, you need to glue them in or have the switches soldered to a good PCB as there won't be anything for the tabs on the switch to grab onto. Also, 1mm thick stainless is about 2/3 the thickness of cherry spec. While yes it will work but you will probably have considerable wiggle in the switches. The price difference between cutting 1mm and 1.5mm I would bet would be negligible.
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: berserkfan on Wed, 23 July 2014, 02:32:57: Thank you for all the advice, Melvang. So it should be 1.5mm regardless, to ensure max stability. What is likely to be the cheapest choice – aluminium, carbon steel or stainless steel? (Am guessing carbon steel because all the makers like it?)

BTW for a 3x Filco JIS minila spacebar, the costar plate mounted stabs are not compatible with 2x stabilizers. The spacing is unique from what I have seen.
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: geniekid on Wed, 23 July 2014, 06:25:58: Since you will probably be using the same design regardless of material, just ask the cutter for quotes on each material. Keep in mind that you will have to be more specific about the material, as there are many different grades of aluminum and steel which have different cutting costs. The most common are aluminum 5052, aluminum 6061 (more rigid than 5052), stainless steel 304. For some idea of what's generally available, take a look at Big Blue Saw's material list (http://www.bigbluesaw.com/saw/faqs/information-about-materials/what-materials-does-big-blue-saw-offer.html) or QWER's material list (http://www.qwerkeys.co.uk/laser-cutting/#tab-id-1). BigBlueSaw and Emachineshop will also generate automatic quotes for different materials through their software.

I wouldn't dismiss acrylic either. The MD Ergodox plates are 5mm acrylic and they seem very stable to me. The switches don't lock into place as with a 1.5mm plate, but once you solder them into the PCB you're not really exposing the switches to any upward force except when you are pulling keycaps off. Even then I have to wonder if this is a problem for people using PCB mounted switches.

Regarding the Phantom plate files - there is a minor flaw where the cutouts for the 2x keys do not allow for switch top removal. It's very close and you just need a small tweak to get it there. Compare the drawings with the ones here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60816) to see the difference. Based on my own ongoing project using those designs I do not believe there are any other flaws, but it's ultimately up to you to verify the measurements :thumb:
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 23 July 2014, 06:50:56: Acrylic works fine for ergodox plates but I wouldn't recommend it for a TKL plate.
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: berserkfan on Wed, 23 July 2014, 08:11:52: Geniekid

Mind telling me how you guys take a plate and measure it? What instruments do you use?

As a guy with zero knowledge of CAD it’s something really intimidating to me. But for now I gotta focus on the more simple issues of figuring out the objects (or whatever you call the holes) on a plate, and how to measure them. What’s so intimidating is that I know I can’t afford any errors. If I make a 0.5mm error that’s more than enough to ensure one switch or stab won’t fit a plate. So I really hope someone can guide me on this

JD’s helping with CAD rendering, but I actually have several projects and problem is some of these are of plates he does not own. Including a Tipro matrix plate. So I figure I have to be the guy doing this measuring at least.
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 23 July 2014, 08:30:37: Quote from: berserkfan on Wed, 23 July 2014, 08:11:52
Geniekid

Mind telling me how you guys take a plate and measure it? What instruments do you use?

As a guy with zero knowledge of CAD it’s something really intimidating to me. But for now I gotta focus on the more simple issues of figuring out the objects (or whatever you call the holes) on a plate, and how to measure them. What’s so intimidating is that I know I can’t afford any errors. If I make a 0.5mm error that’s more than enough to ensure one switch or stab won’t fit a plate. So I really hope someone can guide me on this

JD’s helping with CAD rendering, but I actually have several projects and problem is some of these are of plates he does not own. Including a Tipro matrix plate. So I figure I have to be the guy doing this measuring at least.

Cherry switch holes are 0.551 inch x 0.551 inch +/-.002 with maximum radius in the corners of .012 inch with a plate thickness of .060 inch +/-.004 inch. These numbers are converted from the cherry spec sheet which is in mm. In mm the switch holes are 14mm x 14mm +/- .05mm with maximum radius .3mm and a plate thickness of 1.5mm +/-.1mm.

The standard spacing between cherry switches is 19.05mm or .75 inch. That number works out exact so if you start from the left side and work your way right the using mm when you should have used inch you won't be off a half a pad by the time you get all the way to the right. As far as location on stabilizer holes, I don't remember off the top of my head. Just keep in mind you can't support PCB mount cherry at the same time as any plate mount. However, there is a stabilizer hole design that does support both plate mount cherry and costar which is plate mount only.

If you want to look at the spec sheet for the cherry switches you can find it here (http://cherryswitches.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/7/2012/07/Keymodule_MX_EN.pdf).

For location on where to put switch holes for longer keys, there was a bit of a discussion in one of the cad resources threads in Making Stuff Together between me and someone else, don't remember who right now.
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: geniekid on Wed, 23 July 2014, 08:37:26: For my project I relied on spec sheets/drawings from the GH CAD hub which I verified with an existing plate and a plain ruler. I feel like anything you would want to do with a Cherry MX based design can be done using the "Individual components for designing plates (DWG)" file in the second post on the CAD hub thread since the "units" account for spacing between keys. I think credit goes to WFD and JD for that file.

If you need to measure physical spacing for creating something exotic (as opposed to measuring to double check an existing design), you should get yourself some calipers. I don't think I'm qualified to give advice for such an endeavour.
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 23 July 2014, 11:24:29: So I got this finished...

(http://i.imgur.com/RLWAQaA.png)
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: berserkfan on Wed, 23 July 2014, 13:02:37: Quote from: jdcarpe on Wed, 23 July 2014, 11:24:29
So I got this finished...

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/RLWAQaA.png)

BIG ROUND OF APPLAUSE! Thanks to JD for his hard work!

Followed by the cold, unpleasant reality that setup costs for doing just one ( or less than 5) plate are prohibitive. I checked with Big Saw.

Ultimately this is affordable only in group buys. And since the plates I want are not available in group buys, I now have a headache. If I spend all that time to learn CAD, then measure and work with metal shops, I still have to spend literally hundreds to get my plates.

No wonder most people stick with the traditional way - desolder and resolder - if they want to change switches. :'(

I think I'll be likely to do that. Am now waiting on a couple more preliminary quotes and JD's final drawings for a most specific quote. But I feel really sad about this.
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: GSimon on Thu, 24 July 2014, 18:50:23: Quote from: berserkfan on Wed, 23 July 2014, 13:02:37
BIG ROUND OF APPLAUSE! Thanks to JD for his hard work!

Followed by the cold, unpleasant reality that setup costs for doing just one ( or less than 5) plate are prohibitive. I checked with Big Saw.

Ultimately this is affordable only in group buys. And since the plates I want are not available in group buys, I now have a headache. If I spend all that time to learn CAD, then measure and work with metal shops, I still have to spend literally hundreds to get my plates.

No wonder most people stick with the traditional way - desolder and resolder - if they want to change switches. :'(

I think I'll be likely to do that. Am now waiting on a couple more preliminary quotes and JD's final drawings for a most specific quote. But I feel really sad about this.
-
What sort of costs for manufacturing are you facing? (per 1, 5, 20+ plates)
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: sakai4eva on Mon, 28 July 2014, 06:46:31: Slow to the party as usual, but I did promised that I will get you the quotes I got for the phantom plate using different materials:

1. ANSI125 Keyboard panel,
5.0t Clear acrylic, Unit price : RM52.00/pc
1.6t Aluminium, Unit price : RM73.50/pc
5.0t MDF, Unit price : RM48.80/pc
1.5t SUS304, Unit price : RM71.60/pc

I tried asking for the grade of the aluminium but the supplier is no longer answering emails :(
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: berserkfan on Mon, 28 July 2014, 09:20:46: Quote from: sakai4eva on Mon, 28 July 2014, 06:46:31
Slow to the party as usual, but I did promised that I will get you the quotes I got for the phantom plate using different materials:

1. ANSI125 Keyboard panel,
5.0t Clear acrylic, Unit price : RM52.00/pc
1.6t Aluminium, Unit price : RM73.50/pc
5.0t MDF, Unit price : RM48.80/pc
1.5t SUS304, Unit price : RM71.60/pc

I tried asking for the grade of the aluminium but the supplier is no longer answering emails :(

Are you kidding me?

By Singapore standards (divide currency by 2.7) it's really cheap!

Do they do custom cuts, or only ANSI 125? Does that include the price of the materials, or is that calculated separately? I am going crazy from filing my TIPRO plate. Two hours to do 32 switches, 96 to go.
Title: Re: CAD or other files required for custom cutting of switch moddable plates
Post by: sakai4eva on Mon, 28 July 2014, 10:53:25: ANSI 125 was the phantom plate I gave to them for the quote. I didn't have time to make my full out custom layout, so I just tried it with the phantom plate files for funsies.

So that's the quote they gave me.

Quote is for supplies too, but they don't have coloured acrylic :(

Would have been nice to have that.

BTW, this is just a quote. Nothing else :)