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geekhack Community => Input Devices => Topic started by: Perilous on Sat, 30 May 2009, 20:11:17

Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: Perilous on Sat, 30 May 2009, 20:11:17
I recently purchased a Microsoft Trackball Optical (D67-00001):

(http://www.sunraygaming.com/4_mstrackballoptical_1.jpg)


The bizzare problem I am having is that it seems to install fine in either USB or PS/2 mode and while the buttons and scroll wheel work, the mouse pointer never moves via the ball itself. I've tried it on multiple PCs using multiple Operating Systems to no avail, always the same thing. I'd be more than ready to call it a defective unit if it hadn't been new in box AND after the first one didn't work they shipped me a second one (also NiB) and it behaves the very same way.

For anyone familiar with this trackball a red sensing light appears when you plug it in and the moment it senses the ball being moved the Optical light pops on to move your mouse pointer. That second Optical light never turns on. I am still stubbornly maintaining that this doesn't seem like a hardware failure.

If anyone at all has any thoughts on this please don't hesitate to post. Thank you.
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 30 May 2009, 21:11:42
Thats pretty tough. You are trying it out on multiple machines and multiple OS's and it doesn't work?

You have a bad mouse.

Just for fun; have you tried rebooting the computer after plugging the mouse in?
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: Perilous on Sat, 30 May 2009, 21:15:37
Yes, I have rebooted them all repeatedly. It's hard to believe the mouse is bad when it's two of them straight out of sealed boxes.
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 30 May 2009, 21:23:48
Quote from: Perilous;93469
Yes, I have rebooted them all repeatedly. It's hard to believe the mouse is bad when it's two of them straight out of sealed boxes.


I would agree but you are trying it out on multiple machines and it still doesn't work. Thats whats weird. I could see, maybe, it not working on machine A, but machine B, C and D?
Something is way off here.
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: Perilous on Sat, 30 May 2009, 21:55:24
Bought it from Porterselectronics.com via Amazon.com. Porters sent me a second one when I explained the problem and I still have them both (until it's resolved).

I've using Windows drivers and also multiple versions of Intellipoint and even followed the instructions from MS to remove registry entries pertaining to any past mice that have been installed. I've done fresh installs of 2000 and XP to no avail. I've tried them connected via USB and with a USB2PS/2 adapter included with the mice.

A last resort will be to attemp disassembling one of them to see if there is a physical reason why the Optical beam isn't initiating, but that will only be after all other possibilities have been eliminated.

This trackball is no longer in production by MS and so is no longer supported by them in any capacity. I would dearly love to hear from someone that currently owns and uses one.
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: wheel83 on Sat, 30 May 2009, 22:23:59
Sounds like a bad mouse.  It is just a mouse, so it should work.  Seems unlucky to get 2 bad mice.  but maybe the third time will be a charm.
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 30 May 2009, 22:29:35
Have you tried it under linux?

You can download a live cd and give it a shot.

If the mouse does not work under linux, then it is a bad mouse.
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: o2dazone on Sun, 31 May 2009, 01:19:04
Make sure nothing is blocking the optical pathway. It's pretty easy to see, if you pull the ball out, you can see the little crevice where the laser hides in the back. Usually I'll get a straight hair or lint back there and totally makes my laser inoperable.
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: chimera15 on Sun, 31 May 2009, 01:40:18
Quote from: o2dazone;93488
Make sure nothing is blocking the optical pathway. It's pretty easy to see, if you pull the ball out, you can see the little crevice where the laser hides in the back. Usually I'll get a straight hair or lint back there and totally makes my laser inoperable.

Yes I agree, that's the first thing I'd check.  The other things may be some sort of software, driver, or hardware conflict.   Do you have a lot of programs installed?   Do you have other pointing devices installed?

I'm thinking maybe software that you might have installed on all 3 machines?  

Do the buttons work?  Can you bring up a menu with left click?
I assume other mice work on the system? Or you had other mice on the system?  Did you remove the drivers? Did you install the newest microsoft driver from the microsoft website?


The other big one I sometimes get is that the trackball will overpower the usb hub if I have a lot of other devices on it.  This might even be the case with the ps/2 port. You might try it with an external self powered hub for a final check for that.


Edit: Ok, I read your most recent post.  These trackballs are extremely interfaceable, I have 3 of them, and they will work even without intellipoint installed on almost all my systems.  Unless it's the hub power issue that I suggested I think it's probably a bad trackball.  I doubt you'll be able to do anything even by opening it, unless you find a broken wire.

If it was a used trackball, I would make a suggestion to replace the wire, cause these trackballs will break some of the wires in the usb cable due to flex over the years, but this happens only after a long time of use, and a lot of intermitancy of the trackball being recognized then powered down as you use it.  You might try to flex the cable and see if it initializes that way, especially near where it enters the body of the trackball, and that'd be the cause then.  I suppose it could happen if it was sitting in a box and subjected to extreme temperatures over the years, something might have broken loose, or been soldered poorly from the start that you might be able to diagnose.  My guess though is that it's a series of bad ones from that seller, maybe that were subjected to -50 degree temperatures or something. lol   Overall these are extremely durable and one of mine has lasted near 10 years with daily use, along with my tbe, so it's really sad to hear that this can happen.

You could always send it to one of us or give it to a friend to try on their systems or something. lol
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: sandy55 on Sun, 31 May 2009, 09:14:03
Just  FYI in case you are  ready for disassembling your trackball mouse.
Seems like 2 LEDs within a ball housing should light for normal pointing function. Check soldering pads of corresponding Tr.  
see this article (http://homepage2.nifty.com/__I~~IO/tbo_led.htm) ( written in Japanese ).
Unfortunately linkages of last 6 pictures are broken.

Top page of the site (http://homepage2.nifty.com/__I~~IO/index.htm) contains another trouble shooting relating MS trackball Optical problems. ( top article)

Disassembling "How to" is available at  neko's track ball room (http://mineko.fc2web.com/box/tb-room/items/microsoft-trackball-optical.html) . Use  appropriate auto translation engine.
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: Z Redux on Sun, 31 May 2009, 13:47:35
Problems with two brand new TBOs in a row, that must be very frustrating. :(

I've not experienced this exact issue, though one vaguely similar. If I try to connect a Microsoft Comfort Optical Mouse 3000 while my Trackball Optical is connected, the TBO will function erratically (buttons work intermittently, the cursor occasionally moves in only one direction, the scrolling wheel won't scroll up). To correct the issue, I unhook the Comfort Optical Mouse and restart my computer. I suspect that the malfunction I've seen is caused by a conflict when the two similar devices interface with the IntelliPoint drivers and software.

For your situation, the only advice I can add is:
-Make sure your Trackball is the only pointing device connected to your computer
-Connect it via USB directly (no hubs, converters or extenders)
-Verify that another pointing device will work properly when connected through the same USB port
-Check that the translucent plastic ball socket is clean and the optical sensor unobstructed

As you've tried the TBO on clean installs of both XP and 2000, I doubt software, drivers or operating system are the problem. If none of the sugestions above or from others help, the TBO itself is likely defective... A damaged LED, sensor, USB cord, solder connection or PCB defect - it's hard to say. Since you purchased it new, I'd return it and either get a refund or have the seller send another and hope the 'third time's a charm.'

If nothing pans out and you're interested in buying one new from a different source, there's a guy on ebay selling new, boxed TBOs for $155 USD via 'Buy It Now' with a 90 day warranty. It seems that, if desired, he'll open the box and make sure it works before shipping.  Link to the auction (http://cgi.ebay.com/New-SEALED-RETAIL-PACKAGE-Microsoft-Optical-Trackball_W0QQitemZ270390462624QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item3ef48708a0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50). (I've no affiliation with the ebay seller - or ebay :) - I just happened to stumble upon the auction earlier today)

Best of luck to you. My apologies for not being able to assist further.
-Z
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: Perilous on Sun, 31 May 2009, 16:04:19
As this is an older mouse completely out of production and no longer supported by Microsoft, is there a chance this has something to do with USB 2.0 vs 1.0/1.2?

It seems unlikely, but I am fast running out of ideas.
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: Z Redux on Sun, 31 May 2009, 16:51:13
Quote from: Perilous;93570
...is there a chance this has something to do with USB 2.0 vs 1.0/1.2?...

I can't see how that would be the case. The USB 2.0 standard is backwardly compatible with USB 1.0/1.1.

My Trackball Opticals works on both a machine that supports the old USB 1.1 standard and a 2008 laptop that uses USB 2.0.

:\
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 31 May 2009, 19:22:41
If any of your PCs BIOS's allow mouse operation, that is the easiest way to test it. PS/2 should work right away, USB might need KB/Mouse USB emulation to be switched on.

Check there is no protective film over the sensors. (I know, pretty embarassing when that happens!)

Are you 100% certain the mouse pointer isn't moving - with one of my trackballs you can barely see the movement unless you flick the ball hard. It's due to how XP etc set their default mouse acceleration (it should really be called DEcelleration.)

Are you hot-plugging the PS/2 connection? That's a big no-no in my book, it can cause hardware failures.
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: Perilous on Sun, 31 May 2009, 19:55:01
Quote from: Rajagra;93614
If any of your PCs BIOS's allow mouse operation, that is the easiest way to test it. PS/2 should work right away, USB might need KB/Mouse USB emulation to be switched on.

Check there is no protective film over the sensors. (I know, pretty embarassing when that happens!)

Are you 100% certain the mouse pointer isn't moving - with one of my trackballs you can barely see the movement unless you flick the ball hard. It's due to how XP etc set their default mouse acceleration (it should really be called DEcelleration.)

Are you hot-plugging the PS/2 connection? That's a big no-no in my book, it can cause hardware failures.


Sorry to say, my Bios doesn't use the mouse.
No film over the one working sensor/light. Cleaned the area with alcohol as well.
I am certain there is no pointer movement. I know for a fact that the red light around the trackball brightens when it detects the ball moving. That never occurs.
I've tried it both USB and PS/2 and from experience I always have the computer powered off when plugging/unplugged a PS/2 device.
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: Perilous on Sun, 31 May 2009, 21:49:45
Quote from: ripster;93626
Plug into somebody else's computer/laptop Puleez!  I'm not dissin your setup - just trying to eliminate a LOT of variables.   If it works we can try and figure out what's going on with YOUR computer.

Takes 60 secs - don't load any software.


I hear ya. I've connected both mice to six different PCs now running a variety of Windows versions:

2000 Professional (Base)
2000 Professional (SP4)
XP Home (Base)
XP Home (SP2)
XP Home (SP3)
XP Professional (Base)
XP Professional (SP1)
XP Professional (SP2)
XP Professional (SP3)
Vista Ultimate (Base)

I've reinstalled my kids PC with various versions of Windows and tested both mice. I've tried them all with baseline Windows drivers and multiple versions of Intellipoint ranging from 4.1 to 6.3.

Someone asked earlier that I try with a Linux build but I doubt I'd be able to find my way around it well enough. Maybe it's changed in recent years since I've last played with it, but I recall it being completely command-line oriented unless you downloaded apps to the contrary. I've been out of the loop for far too long concerning Linux.
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: chimera15 on Mon, 01 June 2009, 04:13:17
Quote from: ripster;93575
Unlikely.  They did a pretty good job with downward compatibility.

I'm serious.  You really gotta try them at a friends or even a coffeeshop (excuse me, Maam, may I plug my ball in?).  Plug them both in and see if one loads.  If neither does send em back.

Along the way you may have messed up your system(s) with the multiple installs.  We're talking Windows.

Show Image
(http://www.mistywindow.com/windows/win-pics/blue-screen-of-death.gif)

I posted this so the Linux and Apple guys know what they are missing.

I haven't seen a bsod that looked like that one in years...brings back memories.  lol

They look like this now:
(http://www.theopensourceactivist.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/windows_vista_bsod.jpg)

hehe
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: Perilous on Mon, 01 June 2009, 11:39:48
Quote from: ripster;93655
One last shot in the dark.  Try Marble Mouse Scroll Wheel  (http://simans.net/marble/)- it's a third party Win app that says it works with all trackballs.


Thanks for the link. Unfortunately, still no go.

I think we've done all we can. The fact that the optical light never turns on when the ball is in motion leads me to conclude that it is a physical problem with the Trackball. The fact that it happens on two new trackballs right out of the box suggests a bad batch.

I'm calling it. Time of death 9:36am PDT. Thanks all for the suggestions and advice.
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: wheel83 on Mon, 01 June 2009, 12:24:52
lol time of death was probably a few years ago.  but ya, get another one from that company and good luck with it.  you will like this mouse.
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: Perilous on Mon, 01 June 2009, 12:54:29
Quote from: ripster;93722
Boy, you guys must really love this one to go through all of this effort.

The Marble Mouse 3rd party app probably wouldn't have helped anyway since it probably hooks into the Microsoft drivers.  It's good if you want scrolling though.

Perilous, let us know if the retailer figures out what's going on (unlikely but now I'm curious).


Will do. The trackball is for my wife. She does CAD for a living and swears by that Trackball. As a dutiful husband, she will have it... Or else.
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 01 June 2009, 12:56:26
Quote from: Perilous;93732
The trackball is for my wife. She does CAD for a living and swears by that Trackball.

I swear when I use a trackball.
 
Quote from: Perilous;93732
As a dutiful husband, she will have it... Or else.

Dutiful... or obeying? ;)
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: Perilous on Mon, 01 June 2009, 13:09:04
Quote from: itlnstln;93734
I swear when I use a trackball.
 

 
Dutiful... or obeying? ;)


It was supposed to be her Mother's Day gift. She really loves that Trackball and to not have it working out of the box...
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 01 June 2009, 13:13:36
Quote from: Perilous;93738
It was supposed to be her Mother's Day gift. She really loves that Trackball and to not have it working out of the box...

Just messing with you.  That's a pretty cool gift.  It sucks that's it's not working.  Hopefully the people that ordered from can get you a working replacement.
Title: Need Trackball help!
Post by: wheel83 on Mon, 01 June 2009, 17:25:08
that orchids from today!  tomorrow unless you tie it up... BOOM it will buckle like the 84 keys in my keyboard lol