Looks and price matter much less to me, but as a reference I have a SS 7G. Apart from it not being USB I like it.
Thanks.
Welcome to Geekhack!
There's a bit of a discussion here. (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=93230&highlight=pro+gamer#post93230)
I believe the Kensington (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?t=5770) might meet your needs. The guy in the review churned his up in a year but they're not expensive (compared to some of the other boards here). Layout is ALMOST normal.
The Enermax Aurora Premium (http://techreport.com/articles.x/16522) looks interesting but look at this member's comments (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=66057&postcount=5). He had the 7G as well as a host of pretty high end boards. In other words, there's more going on than key travel to make a keyboard feel responsive. I'd hate the flat keys too.
I like the Filco Brown Cherry board because it's a good all-around board.
It would also help if you specify what types of games you play. If you're not concerned about N-Key that opens up a lot of possibilities.
Can't answer the polling question. It sounds like more marketing hype than reality to me though. I'd worry more about the mouse polling rate and even that gets way overemphasized IMHO.
You're probably better off asking the professional gamers. While somebody here can probably explain how the controllers work with regard to delays, things like which type of switch are fastest are more about biology than mechanics - does hitting a wall rather than getting a click/notch speed you up or slow you down? Will a click allow you to move to the next key sooner or will your reflexes get in the way? Does an unpleasent sounding keyboard heighten your awareness?
Show Image(http://www.cluboc.net/reviews/input_devices/ErgoDex/images/GWmapSkin.JPG)
Well, this is a wild suggestion and I don't play Guild Wars but the Ergodex allows custom configurations to a particular game. Linky. (http://www.cluboc.net/reviews/input_devices/ErgoDex/index.htm) None of the members here has one though.
You could always get a Filco with black cherries. Same type of key action, but with USB. It doesn't have a numpad, so that may be a plus or a minus depending on your need for a numpad.
Out of interest, what sort of response times are you getting from your current keyboard?
Sure, professional gamers has experience and knowledge about reaction time and that sort of things, as do mental chronometry cientists etc. What I'm asking here is about keyboard technology and advice on keyboards from that perspective. :)
I don't know how to measure it. I've set the polling rate to 250hz, which afaik should mean 5ms delay (ps/2).
I play Guild Wars. Yes, n-key doesn't matter to me. Actually, when the default cable is a ps/2 cable I don't want that function.When it's USB (2.0) with an adapter it doesn't matter.
I'm sorry to say this, but your expectations are totally unrealistic. Internal polling rate doesn't mean anything as it's just a technical detail; the most important thing is switch bounce; the debouncer, a software component of the keyboard controller, needs to be adjusted to the bounce time in order to allow for debouncing the keys correctly.
Cherry's MX switches, according to their datasheet, feature bounce times of less than 5 ms. Of course, the keyboard controller is polling somewhat faster than that in order to accumulate enough states (I haven't measured it, but if I were to design a controller, I'd probably choose an internal matrix polling rate in the low kHz range; no keystrokes will be missed, it's both electronically and computationally inexpensive and no fancy high-frequency stuff is involved (traces on mainboards do look so strange for a reason!)), but the speed at which it does this is totally irrelevant for just about anyone; it will get a number of states to decide whether the key was pressed or released.
I suspect rubber-dome boards feature longer bounce times, but let's just use the 5 ms figure Cherry give in their datasheets: The controller can scan the matrix at about any rate it wants to, but you won't get more than 200 Hz "polling rate" from it; the physical characteristics of the switch don't allow a decision whether a key was pressed in under 5 milliseconds due to key bounce. This is a physical limitation and can not be remedied by any easy means.
There are technologies for practically removing key bounce, such as mercury-coated reed switches, but this would require a controller specifically programmed to not do debouncing at all plus you'd have to build a keyboard using these switches (with mercury being phased out, finding mercury-coated reed switches should be somewhat of a problem; maybe other metals will also do; gallium has quite a low melting point, so with a little bit of heating, this could do; I don't know anything about its surface tension, though), which would become insanely expensive.
Enough said, so I'll come straight to the point: I consider many requirements of gamers to stem from misinformation or no information at all. Polling rate is one such thing; polling a keyboard faster than it can register keypresses just puts unneccesary load on the US bus and the keyboard controller; you'll get 200 Hz at best, and that's not regarding anything else the keyboard controller has to do. In reality, I don't think many keyboards can profit from polling rates faster than 50-100 Hz.
So here's my pro tip: Think about your requirements and question them. Find out why you have them in order to really ask yourself if they are really neccesary or you've just been taken in by hype and marketing. Then come back and find a nice keyboard. ;)
-huha
If you're on Windows there'll be a USB polling rate of 125Hz on the keyboard. Even if the keyboard has firmware requesting a faster polling rate, the keyboard state will update every 8ms. There are hacks out there to change usbport.sys to 500Hz or 1000Hz. I don't know how effective they are.
My experience with gaming on keyboards is with fighting games. They are fast, twitchy, and often depend on frame specific actions. I've used a Razer Tarantula which claims 1000Hz and I prefer my old IBM PS/2 keyboard any day.
I was just trying to emphasize that while somebody here may know mechanically which switch is fastest that isn't necessarily going to translate into the fastest switch when you're button mashing.
250Hz means a maximum of 5ms delay with an average of 2.5ms.
What's the most important reaction time element for you? Is it the time between seeing something on screen and getting the keypress registered? Or the time in between two presses of a key, or lifting off one key and hitting another?
That's an odd statement, what would be the issue with n-key rollover?
I've attached a quick and dirty java app that times how long it takes between releasing one key and pressing another (or the same one). No guarantees that it's accurate, but the numbers seem to be about what I'd expect.
Sorry about the zip file, the forum won't let me attach executables directly. You'll also need java (http://java.com/getjava/) to run the program if you don't already have it.
I don't really get your conclusion that polling rate matter less or even doesn't mean anything because the bouncing time due to physical limitations is capped (at best) at 200hz/5ms and therefore the "total delay" can never be lower than 5 ms. Aren't these delays additive?
I'll see if I can get info on the bouncing times for scissor switches.
Internal polling rate for specific keyboards might be a bit harder to find any info on, probably something many manufacturers would put at the very end of a rigourus documentation, if even there..
we're talking about a RTT of several tens of milliseconds here, which means game updates will be sent out and come in in speeds of about 50 times per second at best.
for games relying on packet-routed networks with neither guaranteed bandwidth nor latency, these kinds of discussions are insanely stupid.
Ah. I'm considering the Arctosa.
That usbport tweak works fine. But, hm. So you mean that with the Arctosa for example (1000Hz default) you still would have to apply the usbport tweak? Why, I mean isn't the firmware doing that? :O
Amazing!! Thanks! On my crappy keyboard the best times I can get seems to be 15ms between two presses on the same key. Btw, I thought I had reason to believe that the space key was more responsive/faster (OS dependant) than the other keys, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Or if it is, it's less than 1ms. I'll test this on my gaming comp too. :)Try playing a movie or song in the background and do the test again.
Edit: My gaming comp, with SS 7G, shows the same numbers. And when I press different keys the lowest number I can get is still 15 ms. When I press faster than that it doesn't seem to register. Hm.
Try playing a movie or song in the background and do the test again.
By default, Windows NT's system clock interrupts every ~ 10 ms or ~ 15 ms (depending on machine) - I guess you're just hitting that ceiling.
I've attached a quick and dirty java app that times how long it takes between releasing one key and pressing another (or the same one). No guarantees that it's accurate, but the numbers seem to be about what I'd expect.
Sorry about the zip file, the forum won't let me attach executables directly. You'll also need java (http://java.com/getjava/) to run the program if you don't already have it.
What are you using to measure the elapsed time? System.currentTimeMillis()? If so then the resolution on most Windows-based systems will be only 10 milliseconds or so, and that will greatly limit the accuracy of your results.
I'm still getting the same 7-8ms resolution using nanoTime, but I've attached it in case anyone else has better luck.
I've found a little program that, even if it has limits and certainly doesn't show anything else than the sum of the factors involved, and I don't know how accurate it is, is very interesting and seems like a good indicator on key press times among other things and could be a pretty good instrument for real comparison between keyboards (and the other factors involved). Maybe even more interesting for testing keyboards for typing than for gaming.
A trial version of the program is available here. (http://keyboardtest.passmark-software.qarchive.org)
I think depress time shows the time from a key press being registered to the key release being registered. This is ofc complicated, but I think.. maybe the number displayed could just plain be cut in half to indicate the "action time", meaning the time it takes for a key press to be registered. I could imagine system clock time being a factor here, but it doesn’t seem to be. At least changing the system clock frequency doesn’t affect the numbers I get. I've read someone claiming this program showing a 7 ms key depress time for his Tarantula keyboard (mechanical switches, 1000 hz polling rate, and I think it has 500 hz internal scanning rate) but even if it in theory could be true as far as I know, I take that with a grain of salt. Not that I have any reason to doubt him, I just want some more testimonies before I put much value in anecdotal evidence.
My two keyboards shows (on different computers) lowest key Depress time, regardless of polling rate, in ms
USB Logitech Media Keyboard Elite: 39/40
Steelseries 7G: 29/30
I would be very interested to see some numbers on other keyboards, if anyone has done this test or are willing to do it. I would be particularly interested in
Cherry G84-4100
Filco Majestouch
Realforce 87U
HHKB2
Razer Tarantula/Arctosa
Ergodex DX1
And ofc it would be interesting to see if someone else has tested the 7G.
Update: I guy have tested his Cherry G84-4100 and the lowest Depress time he could get was 26 ms.
Spreads from .12 to 10's of ms tells me something ain't right here.
Cracks me up the Das has the fastest time. One Das user complained he typed so fast he could WATCH the buffer delay.
I'm no engineer but this could turn into the mega N-Key Rollover post. Nobody agreed on how to test or definitions in THAT one.
I tried that program out.
Razer Tarantula: 27ms (turbo and legacy mode)
Logitech PlayStation 2 USB: 35ms
IBM KB-8923 (PS/2): 57ms
For the sake of comparison I wrote a simple C# app that registers KeyDowns and KeyUps and tells the difference.
Razer Tarantula: 7ms
Logitech PlayStation 2 USB: 15ms
IBM KB-8923 (PS/2): 37ms
Exactly 20ms difference in all of them.
I wonder if PassMark KeyboardTest uses Windows Forms events to capture the KeyDowns and KeyUps then assumes the timer could be up to 10ms off on each event because thats how often its updated in Windows and automatically adds 20ms as a result?
EDIT: Obviously not if there are < 20ms responses happening (just noticed the .12 result).
This is kind of interesting. I think I will start a 1ms MM Timer and watch a specific key's status directly to see if there is a difference.
EDIT AGAIN:
I used a high res systems diagnostic timer to double check the numbers and they confirmed the second set of numbers above being the time in MS between when the program detected the KeyDown and when it detected the KeyUp. The timer is accurate to approx 69 nanoseconds on my computer (it varies with the hardware).
I think 0.12 was from the java app.
Oh, this is really interesting. Ok so, subtract 20 ms from those Keypress time numbers in KeyboardTest (if that's the case). I'm starting to think keyboards with capacitive switches is the only ones (reasonably accesible that I know of) that can go under 6-7 ms (26-27 in KeyboardTest). Would be interesting to see numbers from HHKB2 and Realforce 87U.
I can try packaging my little program and uploading it so others can try that. But because of the nature of the timer it uses, it may not be compatible with all computers. The hardware has to support the timer .NET framework is using for the test.
I just tried it on a second computer and got the same results. That computer, though much slower, still managed accuracy to within ~280ns according to the timer. So far the fastest keypress it detected was on my Dell Inspiron 4000's built in keyboard. 4ms.
Enough with these programs, someone go get an oscilloscope out of their garage or something. I know one of you guys have gotta have one lying around :)But I don't wanna damage my Filco :(
I've been extremely busy the last few days. Had several asignments to hand in.. Done now, finally. Puh.
Interesting. Dell Inspiron 4000 hehe.. Yes, that would be awsome if you did that! Hopefully, depending on the timer compability, it would be possible to have a great tool for comparison.
EDIT 2 OMFG my netbook keyboard has transposition errors.
this isn't surprising, i've seen quite a number of normal uncastrated laptops with low key scan rates as well.
if you're typing fast enough to see consistent transposition errors, you're using the netbook in a manner for which it is not designed.
I brought that up with my Dell Inspiron 630m maybe 2 months ago. Dedicated thread but it died quickly.
an external keyboard should work fine, as long as it scans its keys quickly enough. but then that might somewhat defeat the purpose of using a small, portable laptop...
I can double tap D quicker than I can doubletap A
I would tap some double Ds... oh, wait.
That said, As look nicer than double Ds unless the Ds are fake like some XM ALPS (usually).
Anyhow, I tried some double-taps on the D key using my left index finger, trying to see if the keyboard itself makes a difference in how quickly I can do double-taps. It is always about 100ms to do a doubletap regardless of the keyboard, except the Lenovo S10 sucks it's like 250-300ms which is odd given it's a scissor switch board. Blue cherry double taps about as fast as as a brown cherry.
More test results - Passmark Keyboardtest 3.0 - Using Q9550 PC at 4.0ghz running windows XP
MX11800 Via PS2 - No transpositions, simlutaneous press = 2ms, Shortest press = 14ms
Microsoft comfort curve 2000 (rubber dome) via USB - No transpositions, simultaneous = 7ms, Shortest press = 15ms
Topre 86uk via USB - No transpositions, simultaneous press =2ms or 7ms depending on which key combination, shortest press = 7ms
Ricecar SPOS G86 via usb - No transpositions, simultaneous press=2ms, shortest press = 14ms
MX11800 via USB adapter - No transpositions, simultaneous press=2ms, shortest press = 15ms
Filco Pink (non NKRO) Blue cherry vis usb - No transpositions, simultaneous press=2ms, shortest press = 7ms
Lenovo S10 Laptop KB on Intel Atom 1.6ghz running at "max processor speed" - TRANSPOSITION ERRORS - simultaneous press=6ms, shortest press = 36ms
Method - Test for transpositions using credit card rolls using multiple combinations (from left to right, from right to left, up to down, down to up). Then hit 2 buttons simultaneously for "simultaneous press speed". Then hit two buttons in very close succession for "shortest press" speed. The "shortest press" speed must be reversible (thus if you do W-E with 7ms, you must do E-W with 7ms. If you can't do in the reverse, you're doing it simultaneously).
And yes, my lenovo S10 laptop keyboard still transposes when I use a credit card too. Good thing is it's laptop KB is so hard to type on it already. I havent noticed transposition errors in real world typing on my S10, but I haven't been paying attention to it either. It's like now I know there is something wrong so I'm gonna pick at it until I find it :(
http://steelseries.com/blog/press/worlds-fastest-gaming-keyboard-the-steelseries-apex-is-available-now --- fastest keyboard confirmed
feature=youtu.be
http://steelseries.com/blog/press/worlds-fastest-gaming-keyboard-the-steelseries-apex-is-available-now --- fastest keyboard confirmedhttp://www.empirisoft.com/directinkb.aspx --- Thoughts (besides being overpriced)?
feature=youtu.be
But all this is just getting data between the keyboard and the computer. Unless someone actually tests how long it takes a particular keyboard to decide the key is pressed, you might be worrying about 1ms here or there when there's 20ms just sitting on your desk. It's hard to say without actually testing it.
The mystery latency is most likely due to a poorly coded debounce algorithm, waiting until the switch stops bouncing before registering the keypress. There's no need for faster hardware, like a 32 bit ARM, or multiple chips to get the lower latency, you just need an array to hold a timestamp for each key, so you can latch on switch closed, and release the key if it stays open for X time (you can characterize your keyswitch to get the release latency low, but for most games it's the timing of the press that's importantt). This would reduce processing and debounce time for a keypress to something negligible, a few microseconds. To improve from there, you could use a microcontroller with more IO pins, so you can sample each key more frequently. (with a 12x12 matrix you can sample 144 keys, but with a 6x24 matrix you can sample each key twice as often, at the cost of 6 more IO pins).
This guy that measured mouse lag (http://utmalesoldiers.blogspot.com/2013/02/114.html (http://utmalesoldiers.blogspot.com/2013/02/114.html)) was also asked in the comments about keyboard reaction times and mentioned the B640. A4tech also offered to send him one. I just contacted him by email and will update if I get a reply back about him testing the timings.
Im sure this nonsense will make you a better gamer :rolleyes:A competitor is only as good as his tools allow.
Apex:Someone care to explain throw distance?
scan time 200 us
3mm throw
4ms debounce (not 100% sure that one is accurate)
It was marketed as the fastest due to the whole package. It has a low debounce time, low throw distance, high polling rate, and good ergonomics that all come together to create a fast keyboard.
That marketing message is a few years old though. Our new mechanical keyboard, the Apex M800, was designed with a similar goal. The QS1 switches that we designed with Kailh have a 3mm throw distance and 1.5mm actuation distance, which is shorter than Cherry MX switches which are 4mm/2mm. It also has full n-key rollover---
Contacted the guys at JD and got them to add the B640 to their English site: http://overseas.jd.com/product/%E5%8F%8C%E9%A3%9E%E7%87%95%EF%BC%88a4tech%EF%BC%89%E8%A1%80%E6%89%8B%E5%B9%BD%E7%81%B5%EF%BC%88bloody%EF%BC%89b640-%E5%85%89%E8%BD%B4%E6%9E%81%E9%80%9F%E7%82%AB%E5%85%89-%E6%9C%BA%E6%A2%B0%E9%94%AE%E7%9B%98/1256945.htmlIn stock, have at it. $30 shipping - $700 off orders over $5k tho +saving on shipping in bulk if you want to try to resale on ebay... still no NA sellers.
Contacted the guys at JD and got them to add the B640 to their English site: http://overseas.jd.com/product/%E5%8F%8C%E9%A3%9E%E7%87%95%EF%BC%88a4tech%EF%BC%89%E8%A1%80%E6%89%8B%E5%B9%BD%E7%81%B5%EF%BC%88bloody%EF%BC%89b640-%E5%85%89%E8%BD%B4%E6%9E%81%E9%80%9F%E7%82%AB%E5%85%89-%E6%9C%BA%E6%A2%B0%E9%94%AE%E7%9B%98/1256945.html (http://overseas.jd.com/product/%E5%8F%8C%E9%A3%9E%E7%87%95%EF%BC%88a4tech%EF%BC%89%E8%A1%80%E6%89%8B%E5%B9%BD%E7%81%B5%EF%BC%88bloody%EF%BC%89b640-%E5%85%89%E8%BD%B4%E6%9E%81%E9%80%9F%E7%82%AB%E5%85%89-%E6%9C%BA%E6%A2%B0%E9%94%AE%E7%9B%98/1256945.html)In stock, have at it. $30 shipping - $700 off orders over $5k tho +saving on shipping in bulk if you want to try to resale on ebay... still no NA sellers.