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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: deefop on Sun, 31 May 2009, 02:03:57
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Hey guys,
I'm a semi-professional cs 1.6 player and I desperately need a new keyboard. Normally I would just drop a bunch of money and get a steelseries or Razer, but I don't feel like spending a lot at the moment and I want a cheap replacement for the piece of garbage logitech internet 200 or w/e I'm using at the moment.
The thing ghosts like it's his job, can't press more than 2 buttons at a time before it stops registering.
I'm trying to find like a microsoft or something that has the full style keys(not those slim kind) and is relatively cheap. If I'm going to going to spend more than 20 bucks I might as well just give in and get an Arctosa or a Lycosa, or an everglide, etc.
Someone referred me to your site and you seem to have a whole lot of knowledge about keyboards, which is sort of the one computer component I don't know a lot about.
So do you guys know any good cheap keyboards that, above all else, don't ghost too badly?
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Hey guys,
I'm a semi-professional cs 1.6 player and I desperately need a new keyboard. Normally I would just drop a bunch of money and get a steelseries or Razer, but I don't feel like spending a lot at the moment and I want a cheap replacement for the piece of garbage logitech internet 200 or w/e I'm using at the moment.
The thing ghosts like it's his job, can't press more than 2 buttons at a time before it stops registering.
I'm trying to find like a microsoft or something that has the full style keys(not those slim kind) and is relatively cheap. If I'm going to going to spend more than 20 bucks I might as well just give in and get an Arctosa or a Lycosa, or an everglide, etc.
Someone referred me to your site and you seem to have a whole lot of knowledge about keyboards, which is sort of the one computer component I don't know a lot about.
So do you guys know any good cheap keyboards that, above all else, don't ghost too badly?
nostromo n52te
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The thing ghosts like it's his job, can't press more than 2 buttons at a time before it stops registering.
You usually find that it varies depending on which keys you press, with most combinations varying between three and eleven keys before they block* and don't register one of the keys. However, finding a keyboard that has a minimum of more than three is a difficult task as manufacturers don't advertise and many people who test it misunderstand the issue and go for the maximum number of keys before blocking rather than the minimum - our own rollover thread has plenty of examples.
Not many keyboards cheaper than the Steelseries 7G or razer's flagship keyboard have a minimum number of keys before a combination can block of more than the usual three. I don't know of any myself, but when looking through tests I'd disregard any that don't mention the combinations they've tested as there's a fair chance that they've misunderstood.
Of course it is possible that your logitech just has a poor electrical layout of keys, although most keyboards these days have the same wiring so will block on the same combination of keys there do seem to be a few that're different.
*ghosting is a different issue, it's when you get a key registering that you didn't press. It's rare these days, so it's understandable why some people (Razer) have misused the term as a cooler synonym for blocking.
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http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/keyboards/keyboard/devices/3560&cl=hk,en
you probably just have a defective board. i've never encountered a logitech or any keyboard for that matter that had a problem with the WASD cluster. that kind of problem only crops up when you have an old school config (WERD) cluster that's on the middle of the board like a TYUH cluster.
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I had no problems playing games on the MX11800. Even though it's not a gaming keyboard, I think it's just a matter of feel and personal preference.
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yep the mx11800 passes the test! If I was to imitate playing cs using the 1,2,3,4 and wasd + shift, ctrl and space, they all register when I press them all down. (only up to 8 keys though)
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yep the mx11800 passes the test! If I was to imitate playing cs using the 1,2,3,4 and wasd + shift, ctrl and space, they all register when I press them all down. (only up to 8 keys though)
How did you manage to press them all down at once?
Does ASX work as well?
I think cherry probably offers the n-key rollover as an option for all custom keyboard purchases, if compaq didn't have a good reason for it then maybe they didn't know what it was exactly or maybe they just went with one of everything.
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How did you manage to press them all down at once?
Does ASX work as well?
I think cherry probably offers the n-key rollover as an option for all custom keyboard purchases, if compaq didn't have a good reason for it then maybe they didn't know what it was exactly or maybe they just went with one of everything.
I had my friend do it with me lol. Sometimes it doesn't register all 8 keys. It takes 6 keys mostly but it's weird with my 2 key because it doesn't register as well comparing to the 1 and 3 key.
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Thanks for testing. That Compaq must have had some good engineering put into it. Wonder why they put N-key in a Server Closet board?? Back then they must have overengineered everything.
Today we get Logitech. I still don't understand how the biggest keyboard manufacturer in the world can't implement a better matrix and some N-key (6 is fine in my book). At their volumes it must cost pennies.
Also the fact that even their $100+ keyboards still only use rubber membranes.
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Cchan's full rollover claim was for his Cherry MX8100.
[16:10:22] I love how my new keyboard has NKRO, even though I'm never going to take advantege of that functionality.
[16:10:48] I think I would use NKRO
[16:10:52] I'd use my keyboard as a joystick
[16:11:46] Get the Cherry MX8100 then, it's only like 26 bucks shipped on ebay.
[16:11:50] And it has browns.
[16:12:13] and it has full rollover?
[16:13:57] hah it has a credit card reader?
[16:13:57] Yes.
[16:14:10] Keybutting on my PS/2 desktop gets me at least 60 keys.
What similarities are there between the Cherry MX8100 and the Compaq MX-11800? When I brought up the Cherry, Ripster (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=92836&postcount=199) automatically mentioned the Compaq.
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well i use the wasd gaming cluster and i can't crouch, move forward, and reload at the same time. really annoying. i know the 7g is about the best there is for this function but the price tag some of the weird keyboard setups make me shy away from it. which razer keyboard can also boast of this? A lot of friends have the lycosa and said that it suffers from pretty bad ghosting outside the wasd cluster.
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ohhh also i only have usb ports on this computer. plus as a gamer ps/2 100hz polling is a little slow to be using.
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Hey Baby, wanna do some N-key tonite!!!
I'm putting a stake in the ground that 6-key is good enough for any 6-fingered individual.
You mean this individual?
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/delurk
http://ijk.com.au/branch/ijk/product_info.php?cPath=54&products_id=119411&osCsid=d26bb2c82b93ef80a9f4374aca25df62
/relurk
You know, they even make a mechanical keyboard http://www.i-rocks.com/Product_List.aspx?GROUP_ID=1024&CLASS_ID=1056
Similiar as the OP and a few other posters recently, I'm looking for a keyboard that will at least let me do w+a+tab.
Maybe I will buy the Majestouch. But being in australia sucks, locally (read in australia) the only mechanical ones I seem to be able to get are the DAS (which clearly has issues) or the Gigabyte GK-K8000... which no one seems to know anything about.
\end hijack!
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eh, it doesn't really have to be able to push ANY 6 buttons on the keyboard in any combination. For counter strike the WASD cluster, as well as left shift and left control are really the most important. Actually are they considered part of the WASD cluster? A lot of these terms are new to me. Never heard of this n-key stuff either. I'm sure you guys have a huge database of explanations somewhere so I'll have to start reading. Anyway, if i was going to shell out 100$ anyway I would just get the 7G, or a lycosa or something similar.
I was perfectly happy with the standard dell one that came with my computer, unfortunately I left it at x3o in maryland.
Regardless, i really just need to be able to hit like 4 buttons at a time, most of which are around the WASD cluster. I don't ever use arrow keys or anything like that.
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Hey Baby, wanna do some N-key tonite!!!
BTW - always report MINIMUM so I'll give the Compaq a 6-key. I thought the full n-key claim in the review seemed a bit of an exaggeration.
I'm putting a stake in the ground that 6-key is good enough for any 6-fingered individual.
lmao ripster you're the best. you are the special one keeping the whole forum lively lol.
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as far as the discussion on polling times, I don't have experience with polling time differences for keyboards. however i am pretty expert on them with mice, and my da at 1000hz is noticably faster to respond than any mouse with a default at 125hz. My IME 3.0 also responds MUCH faster when clocked at 1000hz, AND you can actually increase its tracking performance. at 125hz you get about 1.0 m/s of perfect control, when overclocked to anything above 250hz you will get 1.5 m/s of perfect control, which is a very substantial increase. speed past that results in heavy negative acceleration.
the reason i bring that up is to show that for mice the faster polling rate can have a very positive influence, so I'm assuming that keyboards can benefit from it as well.
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Also, if i may ask, why does it seem that PS/2 is capable of higher performance than USB? For mice this is the polar opposite, and as far as I know USB is capable of ridiculously high data transmission in comparison with PS/2.
Why does the 7g need to use a ps/2 buffer system instead of USB. That i-rocks keyboard you linked claims 11 keys can be pressed at once, but only 6 if you're connecting with USB.
Sorry if I'm asking too many questions, my inner nerd creeps out at this time of night.
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Alright I shall endeavour to avoid lurking too much heh.
The bright side of the i-rocks is it's cheap. The main down side is the big enter key which I am really not a fan of.
Hoorah for australians!
Deefop I'm not exactly sure what the tech reason is and someone who knows more than me will probably fill you in but without trickery all usb ones only do a max of 6 I think.
See if they sold the Filco in australia with a warranty I'd just buy it I think.
As is: "DOA will be dealt with on a case by case basis" and no warranty applies scares ne a little when all up it'll easily hit $200 AUD I think.
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On another side note: damn that large enter button! I don't get why they ever designed a board like that, all it does is shrink down the backspace key which is stupid, and who really needs the enter button to be that huge? If that I-rocks one that jazza first linked had a normal enter button I literally would've already ordered it, it looks really nice with a simple no frills approach, and has the technical specs I'm looking for, all for 15 dollars. But they had to ruin it with the giant enter button :(
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They do however also make this one
http://www.i-rocks.com/Product_detail.aspx?CLASS_ID=1039&PRODUCT_ID=1199
Which is backlit and doens't have the stupid enter button.
Unfortunately for me it's a fairly cramped design which I don't like either lol.
As for price, no idea in the US. Oh wait, found it
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823204015
$40 us
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well i use the wasd gaming cluster and i can't crouch, move forward, and reload at the same time. really annoying. i know the 7g is about the best there is for this function but the price tag some of the weird keyboard setups make me shy away from it. which razer keyboard can also boast of this? A lot of friends have the lycosa and said that it suffers from pretty bad ghosting outside the wasd cluster.
Yeah, it looks like ctrl+w+r blocks on my keyboard as well, that's another good one to add to the list.
You could always use shift instead of control (assuming CS doesn't use that for something critical).
Regardless, i really just need to be able to hit like 4 buttons at a time, most of which are around the WASD cluster. I don't ever use arrow keys or anything like that.
There's an explaination here (http://www.dribin.org/dave/keyboard/one_html/) of the problem. Based on that I think only having the WASD keys independant would allow for ctrl+w+r and w+a+tab.
Also, if i may ask, why does it seem that PS/2 is capable of higher performance than USB? For mice this is the polar opposite, and as far as I know USB is capable of ridiculously high data transmission in comparison with PS/2.
Why does the 7g need to use a ps/2 buffer system instead of USB. That i-rocks keyboard you linked claims 11 keys can be pressed at once, but only 6 if you're connecting with USB.
Sorry if I'm asking too many questions, my inner nerd creeps out at this time of night.
I think it's just down to the fact that somebody wasn't aware of the possible requirements of a keyboard when drawing up the USB keyboard specifications.
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Man, this is really starting to bug me. Seems stupid-easy for a manufacturer to do this:
1) Scissor Switch board
2) 6 Key rollover (I'm using the technical definition which IBI says is N-key where N = N-1 keys register.)
3) USB no problem
4) Ditch the LEDs and put the money in some cheap electronics for rock solid 6-key and key bouncing.
Yeah, but people like "teh pretty."
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Man, this is really starting to bug me. Seems stupid-easy for a manufacturer to do this:
1) Scissor Switch board
2) 6 Key rollover (I'm using the technical definition which IBI says is N-key where N = N-1 keys register.)
3) USB no problem
4) Ditch the LEDs and put the money in some cheap electronics for rock solid 6-key and key bouncing.
Given the large number of keyboards out there it does seem to be a bit odd that keyboard makers aren't diversifying - I guess most companies really have no clue and are just hiring designers rather than engineers.
2nd that. I crouch all the time with CTRL - first key remap I do.
Due to this terrible, unremappable FN key displacing control on my current keyboard I just remapped crouch to shift in L4D yesterday and it seems to work pretty well.
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unfortunately shift is used to walk in cs, and remapping is sort of a bad idea anyway. i mean i used to remap keys all the time, but once you've gotten used to something its a bad idea to mess with it. Plus there really is no way to remap those keys, since control and shift are both used idk where i could remap them to.
So i guess something about the control key just messes with keyboards? My dell was able to handle it fine.
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unfortunately shift is used to walk in cs, and remapping is sort of a bad idea anyway. i mean i used to remap keys all the time, but once you've gotten used to something its a bad idea to mess with it. Plus there really is no way to remap those keys, since control and shift are both used idk where i could remap them to.
So i guess something about the control key just messes with keyboards? My dell was able to handle it fine.
No, but the control key is apparently often on the same column as the W, so introducing another key on a row connected to either will cause only the first two keys you press down to register. It's nothing to do with control specifically, if you replace it with S you'll get the same behavior.
That's the electrical rows and columns, there's no guarantee they'll correspond to the rows and columns on the keyboards (and generally don't).
What you need is a keyboard where the key combinations you want don't interfere - unfortunately even the best keyboard manufacturers don't publish this information. You could try asking the manufacturer about any particular keyboard you're interested in, but I don't know how helpful they'd be (it's not a trade secret or anything, you can easily tell by eye if you take the keyboard apart).
Apart from that your options seem to be:
Buy a keyboard you know is good from experience (i.e. another keyboard the same model as your old dell). I don't think there's any reason a PS/2 converter would affect this.
Find someone else with a keyboard you're interested in and ask them to test the combinations you want.
Buy a keyboard that's marketed as having at least one key for every three key combo you'd use anti-blocking. (and at least two keys in a four key combo).
Find a forum and make a thread there asking people if their keyboard handles ctrl+w+r. This is just about the worst forum for that since most people here have expensive or out of production keyboards. You might get a couple of results here though - I know the Cymotion Expert is fairly highly thought of and the sort of price you're looking at.
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Whoops - got confused 8100 vs 11800. For a while Cchan had both.
*image snip*
Looks like trackball vs trackpad + cardreader.
This sucker looks BIG!
and why it would be designed to be full n-key is anyone's guess.
I've never had the 11800 and 8100 both at the same time - I sold my 11800 to Manish7 before I bought my 8100. Now my 8100 is exhibiting some Wackpad issues... I want to get a hold of the 11800's trackball and mod it in there because that would be wicked. Also, as for the NKRO, the 8100 is part of Cherry's Advanced Performance line of keyboards, and it lists for over $200. Why not throw NKRO in?
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Others? Not that I can think of that are G80. Most Advanced Performance boards are G81. Yeah, too bad about the wackpad, though it may because of sloppy reassembly (lack of Torx screwdriver for the lose)