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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: torks on Mon, 28 July 2014, 12:41:26

Title: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Mon, 28 July 2014, 12:41:26: hi there, im new on all this world of keyboard, so, i just bought a chicony 5191 keyboard but its OLD!!!!, and when i press the keys they are SO HARD to press some times, i dont know how to fix that thing, some one can help me pls?... i dont know how to lube, i dont know how to take of the switches to lube it or what ever, this keyboard have mitsumi switches, pls help me T_T...

PD: excuse me for my bad english ><
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: CPTBadAss on Mon, 28 July 2014, 12:50:43: Using these pictures to start (http://imgur.com/a/NEt16):

Looks like the switches need to be desoldered in order to be lubed. Then this post may help you as to how to disassemble the switch (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45456.msg1016547#msg1016547) assuming they come apart like Alps. They look awfully like them to me but I'm not 100% sure. This guide shows how to lube Alps switches so you'll want to have your switches apart and then compare and contrast to this guide. (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55456.0) The MX lube thread may help too.
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Mon, 28 July 2014, 13:26:32: OMG :( i dont know nothing about "solding/desoldering" i cant take out the stuff whit out desoldering?... i see the videos on the link, and they dont desoldering, they just use some forcep tweezers and screwdrivers, i think i cant do noting :(, i cant just put some oil on the switches?
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: CPTBadAss on Mon, 28 July 2014, 13:27:52: You'll probably have to learn how to solder and desolder. This seems like a good time to learn. The videos are for Alps. I'm not sure if you can take apart the Mitsumi switches without desoldering and from ripster's pictures, it doesn't look to be the case. Flooding oil into the switch isn't ideal and I won't recommend it.
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Mon, 28 July 2014, 13:44:22: well, i will try to learn about solding, its just that i live in a country extremely poor and the stuff are VERY expensive or in other case the stuff are missing or doesn't exist here.. so i dont want to broke my keyboard :(... do you have skype or e-mail or whatsapp? to take pictures and show you my advance on my work on that keyboard? and receive some advice of you? :P
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: CPTBadAss on Mon, 28 July 2014, 14:04:19: Why not post on the forum where everyone can help?
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Mon, 28 July 2014, 14:13:11: ok i will =D, but on wekends only, because my work and university, so no time right now ><..
but the only problem righ now is, how to know if i need to desolderer or i cant take out whit out desolding xD
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 28 July 2014, 14:33:19: Quote from: CPTBadAss on Mon, 28 July 2014, 13:27:52
I'm not sure if you can take apart the Mitsumi switches without desoldering and from ripster's pictures, it doesn't look to be the case.

Clever Japanese people can get Mitsumis apart, but I have no idea how. The also require de-soldering as, like Alps SKFL, the sides of the metal lid are soldered into the PCB.

torks: First off, what switches does your KB-5191 have? If you can't ID them, just post a picture of them.

Also, are you referring to specific keys that are stiff, or are you finding that the keys get stiffer the further that you press them from the centre of the key? Alps switches can get like that.
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Mon, 28 July 2014, 14:47:57: i finding that the keys get stiffer when i press the key in a side, when i press the key on the middle of the key they works normaly, but when i start to tiping fast i press the corners of some key and they key dont go down

the keyboard have mitsumi switches (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7ASyndCMAAXB0z.jpg)

PD: sorry for my bad english seriusly XD
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 28 July 2014, 15:02:26: Just out of curiosity, how much of a "bump" do you feel when you press the keys? As you press on a key, does it drop suddenly and sharply? Most people suggest that the drop is subtle, whereas with my loose switches, the drop is very strong and noticeable.

If I put a cap from my Filco onto one of these switches, I can press it just fine from any angle without it feeling stiff or digging in ("binding").

However, the only way to open those switches is by desoldering them all and taking them out of the keyboard, and even then they're extremely hard to take apart. I haven't managed yet to open a switch without breaking it. I don't know whether it's possible to drop some lubricant in from the top.

Sadly these switches are not very common.
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Mon, 28 July 2014, 15:10:16: the bump its on the top and they sound and feel like a brown cherry MX, another thing i noticed that, i changed some keys to, whit a low profile and the "stiff" feeling decrease, BUT really annoying when i start to typing faster some keys doing well others dont.
when i press the switches whitout keycaps they dont stick or "stiff" or what ever they just go down very smothly

maybe i can do some videos and show in here.

well im sad right now :(
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 28 July 2014, 15:13:53: I don't know what I've got then, as they look identical to yours, but they feel so much better than Cherry MX Brown. (They're old stock from Devlin — p/n KLT-II or KLT-2 or something — I've contacted two different branches of Mitsumi, in English and Japanese, and have yet to hear back.)
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Mon, 28 July 2014, 15:23:27: so? i give up? xD... o gosh i dont know :(

i have an option to buy a CM quick rapid blue mx switches but i have no money xD
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Mon, 28 July 2014, 15:51:56: here is the video :(

i dont know how to put a video xD
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 28 July 2014, 15:54:11: Just needs to be HTTP, not HTTPS.
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Mon, 28 July 2014, 15:56:34: well tell me now =(
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: niubio on Mon, 28 July 2014, 16:29:43: Hi there torks!

You can try to use air compressor with "pistol" valve, sth like this:

http://i00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/461/312/492/492312461_631.JPG (http://i00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/461/312/492/492312461_631.JPG)

You apply the end of the "barrel" next to the gap between the slider and the switch case and... BAM! ;) Repeat process with each switch. I think that the pressure of the air in a "cleaning compressed air" can (which you can buy almost everywhere) would be too low. It MIGHT work - the dirt that accumulated inside will be pushed near switch walls.

If you've some guts, you can try some sort of a "contact" spray which you can obtain in electronic shop. It comes in a form of an "atomizer". You press each switch, put the end of the tube inside the gap and activate the spray for a milisecond. It's mostly alcohol - not water - so it shouldn't have any side effects on the switch, as everything evaporates right after use.

I've one board with mitsumis and have some experience with opening various switches without desoldering, but I don't think that is possible with this type... I will search for it tommorow tho.
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 28 July 2014, 16:47:38: I'll let niubio be our lubemeister, but since I was refreshing my MS Paint skills, I may as well leave this here:

[attachimg=1]

The bit circled in red (and the one on the other side) is why they don't come apart while still attached to the keyboard.
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: niubio on Mon, 28 July 2014, 17:23:11: Ok Daniel, after that I give up on trying tommorow :D Nice paint job!
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 28 July 2014, 17:47:37: I need a life.
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Mon, 28 July 2014, 17:53:14: Oooohhhh thanks to all for help me guys, that pic (oooh yeah, nice paint skills xD) its all i need to discover how i can take off the thing for lube :p thanks daniel, now i need to begin the work on solding, omg what a annoying work >< i just hope i dont broke my KB :(

Now i just have to desolding the sheet steel and the mechanism goes up right? And the switch dont go to pull up completely right? And i dont go to damage my kb right?
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 28 July 2014, 18:16:45: Don't try taking the switches apart. They're an Experts Only switch. Horrid things to try to take apart. Since I have a bag of them, I just tore a couple open to get at the insides:

[attachimg=1]

You can see that I snapped off the side, and still couldn't get off the lid without twisting it out of shape.

However, I figure that you should be able to inject/drop some suitable lube down the sides of the slider (with it fully depressed) and maybe even at the back.

The contacts are at the front of the switch on your keyboard, and I am not sure that getting lube in the contacts is a good idea.
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Mon, 28 July 2014, 18:37:47: Well desolding thing now is NOT ABLE anymore.

Now, what type of oil/grease or lube material do you recommend me to apply?

Maybe vaseline works?
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Mon, 28 July 2014, 19:03:33: So... I should just apply the lube on the red arrows?

And i shouldnt apply lube on the black arrow, im right?

(http://[IMG]http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/29/ty4yqyta.jpg)[/IMG]
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: terrpn on Mon, 28 July 2014, 19:43:19: interesting...............knew they existed, but hadn't seen a 5191 with mitsumi's

both of my 5191's have futaba's, loud and clacky- pretty flimsy board

sorry to hear about your woes
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Tue, 29 July 2014, 02:32:19: Quote from: torks on Mon, 28 July 2014, 19:03:33
So... I should just apply the lube on the red arrows?

And i shouldnt apply lube on the black arrow, im right?

Show Image
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/29/ty4yqyta.jpg)

That would be where I'd start, and on a switch I didn't care about.

This is an official lube for switches:

http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,misc&pid=mechlube_2

That one is Teflon (PTFE).

I didn't realise that first photo wasn't yours. Your switches are all rusty! I was wondering why, in the video, the steel tops didn't look shiny.

Since the tactility comes from the lateral spring, maybe those are also rusted.
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Tue, 29 July 2014, 07:50:11: Yes the sheet steel are rusty all of them, but i dont care about the clicky sound its just i cant go down the key smothly, also when i press the switches whitout keycaps they go down normaly.

Now, that kind of lube on my country doesnt exist, here i have grease, vaselina, oil. What kind of type u remcomend me to aply?

And on the pic thats the way i can put lube on the switches?
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: niubio on Tue, 29 July 2014, 13:37:20: IMO you shouldn't lube them if springs inside corroded. Disassembly of each switch would be the only solution. You should remove all springs and bath them for ~5 minutes in phosphoric acid (or other type of rust remover), along with disassembled corroded switch tops preferably. After the bath you should squeeze all parts a little with your finger tips under the running water (in thick rubber gloves of course!!!) to remove all loose rust parts. Then you should clean everything again in soap bath + alcohol bath and let it dry for couple of hours.

I think that's the only way to go if there's rust on the springs. If you want to do it - do it the right way. IMO dissasembly/desoldering of those switches + removing rust from small spring/miniature metal switch enclosure is a work for a hardcore professional. I mean HARD-CORE.
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Tue, 29 July 2014, 13:40:58: Well im done... I will broke that keyboard and record a video T.T
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: niubio on Tue, 29 July 2014, 17:24:43: Don't do this mate... Have some respect for vintage equipement :(

You can always search for another 5191 and use this one as a spare donor... Or sell it & buy another one. Don't trash old stuff, it's like killing kittens :(
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Tue, 29 July 2014, 22:46:27: Well i do the lubing work, i just go for it and the switches get so MUCH better, now i can typing fast and they dont stuck :D

Here is a little video
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Wed, 30 July 2014, 02:30:58: Now I'm dreading finding out what you used as lubricant ;-)
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: davkol on Wed, 30 July 2014, 02:37:33: The typing technique looks scary. O_o
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Wed, 30 July 2014, 06:31:26: I will to put some picks of how i put the lube.

About the 'typing technique' im so bad xD on the right hand inuse only 2 fingers and in the left i use just 1 xD
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Wed, 30 July 2014, 06:36:02: http://Whi this "thing" i just let drop a little super tiny drop on that side of the switch, triying that the lube dont touch the contact in front, like daniel told me.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/30/4adepe5e.jpg)

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/30/e5ezuraj.jpg)
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Wed, 30 July 2014, 16:43:48: And now, im thinking on the paint job :$. Guys can you give me some ideas? :p i just have black and red spray paint, some models or any idea? :)
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Wed, 30 July 2014, 17:19:54: What did you inject into the switches?

The gotcha with that keyboard is the bigass enter key, which makes it harder to replace the keycaps. I am not sure what colour case would go well with yellowed keycaps honestly.

You can try out colours here: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/

Maybe IBM industrial grey.
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Wed, 30 July 2014, 17:55:54: Oil whit silicone or something like that.

Mmm i have another keycaps y can paint those ones on red and the case in black?
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Wed, 30 July 2014, 18:30:57: It seems a bit drastic, and bit passé. I don't know that yellowed keycaps and black will work, while black works with black, white or grey keycaps.

I'm still thinking that something along the lines of the IBM industrial colour scheme:

http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/ibm-industrial-space-saver-t6540.html

You might want to tailor the case colour to be more in tone with the yellowing of the keycaps so that appear to be a deliberate colour.

The enter key is the big problem, as you won't get that from GMK, SP or Tai-Hao group buys, so you can't buy a new keycap set in a preferable colour. If you're not fussed about the legends, you could dye the keycaps dark grey, though. There already are keyboards with black legends on dark grey keycaps (and yes, you can barely read the legends).
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Wed, 30 July 2014, 18:45:11: I dont understand about the black legends im so noob on this, im really new.

So i think that i dont go to paint nothing because i dont have that color the gray one its really nice but i dont have it.

Here is a keyboard that i already paint and this is the mess xD

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/31/a2ajysy4.jpg)
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Wed, 30 July 2014, 19:08:31: My eyes! The goggles do nothing …

OK, so you're only willing to paint the keyboard with the paint you already have? That's silly.

Here's a Realforce with black legends on dark grey keycaps:

http://www.geek.com/review/review-topre-realforce-87u-keyboard-1192101/

By dying the keycaps dark grey, it allows you to use the existing keycaps without having to be concerned with replacing the enter key, since the keycap sets that you get from Tai-Hao, Signature Plastics (AKA Pimp My Keyboard) and GMK group buys only have ANSI (horizontal) and ISO (like on your Compaq) enter keycaps, not bigass like on the KB-5191.

I don't know how much of the yellow will remain after you dye them though. It's not my subject really. Personally I like black keyboards with black keys, and white or backlit legends. I think I might have overdone my Filco a bit:

[attachimg=1]

I never got to take a better photo that day as my camera battery ran out, and that's my desk at work. I have a backlit Poker II now, though the other keyboards are still there (a load of switches on the Filco have gone bad — they probably need WD40 or something (which works) but I don't really understand either lube or whatever putting WD40 into a switch does, besides make it register correctly somehow).
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Wed, 30 July 2014, 19:13:54: Omgg im so jealous :( this country sucks! T.T
I dont understand when you says "dying the keycaps" i will to trasladate that xD
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: torks on Wed, 30 July 2014, 19:33:15: Ok i understand right now xD.

What about paint all black, case and all the "white" keycaps, and the gray ones just like that?
Title: Re: Help whit my new Chicony KB-5191
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Thu, 31 July 2014, 02:40:49: Obviously there are times when it's important to design something to please more people than you annoy.

In this instance, it's your keyboard, and it needs to be whatever you think is attractive. That's why I suggested that keyboard layout editor as you can (albeit clunkily) play with the colours. Matt3o has one where you just change the colours and nothing more (alphanumeric keycaps and legends, modifier/special keycaps and legends, and case colour) but the case colour is limited to a few basic colours; you cannot for example model IBM's industrial grey.

I tend to be fairly happy with all black, and maybe some selected keys in another colour. My main keyboard at home is another Filco, with the same green and blue mods/arrows, but reversed colours (I tried one arrangement at home and the other at work). It doesn't have any other custom keycaps besides ctrl, alt and arrows, except for a black Geekhack "gh" keycap on escape.