geekhack
geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: osi on Fri, 08 August 2014, 10:17:02
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Does anyone have experience getting Dr's excuses for ordered time away from using a keyboard for an occupation??
I've never had carpal issues in the past or maybe I simply haven't noticed. As I'm getting older (relative), ailments like these are starting to creep up on me. Lately, I am experiencing pain in my wrists that spiders out to my fingers if I do not move my hands. This is turning into a daily battle.
Generally, My posture is good with wrists elevated over the board and I sit with a straight back in my chair most of the time. Frequently now, I am "shaking my hands out" as well as "tensing" my wrists while moving my hands circularly to nullify the discomfort. At times more discomfort is achieved before relief through these methods, particularly when tensing my wrists.
A good weekend away from heavy typing sessions does wonders for me but it is short lived for sure when I arrive back in the captains seat. Referencing another GH'ers thread, the Ice bath dunk was mentioned. I'm willing to try this but I need to figure out a good method to do this in my office.
Most importantly, the wrist pain is starting to transition into my golf game--especially if I hit the range after work. That was the last straw, can't be having that interfere with the golf game!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:
Currently I am not considering any type of ergo boards. The issue occurs for me no matter what I'm using rather it be a rubber dome, mech, or a laptop scissor switch. Honestly I don't even know what type of tests can be performed to diagnose RSI/Carpal
Any experiences of getting ordered away from working to heal GHers?? :)
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While I don't have these issues, I would recommend seeing a doctor about this. My mom had CTS from years and years of knitting/sewing/cross stitch. She ended up having surgery for it and she regrets not having it sooner.
One question I have is do you bottom out the keys. Bottoming out the keys from what I have seen/read has a large impact on RSI. Where the weight of the spring has the biggest effect on CTS. Just my two cents and I very well could be wrong here but that seems to be the trend that I have seen.
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I do bottom out the keys but I don't make it a point to do so. It's not a firm bottom out but I get what you are saying.
Surgery would be extreme no? Was your mom able to get back into knitting after recovering from the surgery? (If you don't mind me asking) :)
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Taking breaks during the day is easily one of the best "remedies" to ease the RSI/strain. Outside of that, I have family members that were developing CTS. They were able to ease their symptoms by sleeping with a wrist brace/splint, similar to this one from Mueller (http://www.amazon.com/Mueller-Wrist-Brace-splint-Black/dp/B000RZHPOM). You may want to mix in some hand/finger stretches into your daily routine, as well.
If you haven't been to a dr yet, get an appointment with an Orthopedic. Even better if you can get an ortho that specializes in hands or RSI issues. They could potentially "prescribe" time off of a computer, but depending on length of time - I don't know how your employer would take this, or how they treat short/long-term disability/leave.
The one thing I've picked up from my battle with RSI (tennis elbow, not CTS) is that docs would love to take me away from my RSI trigger for a couple months. Working in IT, though, that doesn't really work for me. So, I've gone down the road of cortisone injections, braces, compression sleeves, and PT. PT is the only thing that gave me some strength/mobility back, but even this was minimal. Only other option I have left is surgery, which I don't feel like undergoing at my age.
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@OSI
1. You are screwed.
2. How stiff are the keys you are typing on at work?
(How many grams of weight does it take to actuate a keypress?)
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What do you type? Code or legal docs, etc...
Do you take rest breaks? Eat lunch at your desk?
The more we know, the more we can help.
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I’m not a doctor, and don’t have wrist/finger issues myself, so take my recommendations with a pinch of salt, but:
(1) Get enough sleep, exercise, eat healthy, try to avoid work/relationship/etc. stress if you can.
(2) Make sure you change body positions sometimes, and take breaks (don’t sit for 2 hours at a time!), walk around a bit.
(3) Make sure your display is at the height of your face, so that your neck and back stay straight, and you don’t have to bend over to see the screen. Laptops are really horrible for this (though that doesn’t stop me from working in coffeeshops on a laptop quite often; I just try to switch positions frequently).
(4) Make sure your chair is high enough / desk (or keyboard tray) is low enough that you can keep your arms in a comfortable position. Most office workers have their desks substantially too high and as a result need to bend their wrists awkwardly.
(4a) Alternately, consider an “ergonomic chair” like a saddle chair, kneeling chair, etc. There are a bunch of interesting possibilities at http://www.ergodepot.com/category_s/168.htm – but I recommend trying to test these for a few hours or even a few days before pulling the trigger, as some designs might work for you while others might be terrible, and as a niche imported product they’re fairly expensive.
(4b) Consider working standing up, at least part of the time. Sit-stand desks make it really fast and easy to switch back and forth between sitting and standing positions without disruption of your work.
(5) Try to type with your wrists in as neutral a position as possible. For me, when using a standard QWERTY keyboard, I find that using my left index finger for c, middle finger for x, and ring finger for z makes it much easier to angle my hands so that my wrists are in a relatively neutral position (the “standard” typing style encourages a pretty sharp wrist angle in the left wrist). Alternately, a keyboard which is split, with the two halves either widely separated or rotated, makes it much easier to adopt a comfortable wrist position. Tenting two halves can also help a lot. To really go down the rabbit hole here, consider a column-staggered keyboard like the Kinesis Advantage or Ergodox.
(6) Try to find keyswitches which actuate reliably when pressed past their “tactile point” and then try to reduce the force you use and distance you press the key until you’re pressing the key as hard as necessary but not much harder – some rubber domes will not reliably actuate unless forcefully pressed all the way to the bottom, and this encourages typists to really smash them down hard (in my experience scissor switches and some high quality rubber domes can be decent). The impact at the bottom of the keystroke is where most of the shock comes from. Mechanical switches with a substantial tactile “bump” can be a big help here (have you ever tried a Model M, for instance? Or a clicky Alps switch?).
(7) Consider whether switching back and forth between mouse and keyboard is causing you trouble. In some cases switching from a mouse to a trackpoint, trackpad, “roller mouse”, or trackball can be a big ergonomic advantage. Even just trying to learn more keyboard shortcuts might help considerably. Some people have had good luck with reducing the size of their keyboard so the mouse isn’t as far away, or even learning to use the mouse with their left hand.
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Daily driver : hhkb pro 2 type s - uniform 45g weight save variance
The weight of hhkb keypresses have never been fatiguing. For comparison--Thought I was strawng, got a MX black board. That was fatiguing but rather different from the experiences I have now. @totalchaos
Frequently typed doc styles :
- (proper as in formatting) e-mail
- system configuration files
- scripting - sh, php, batch, PS, SQL, mysql
I DO eat lunch at my desk. Multitasking is a must. Always have a few things going on. As I hit a waiting period on the current task, normally I'll have another task ready for its next operation so I get back on that.
Different setups I've tried :
- palm/wrist rest
- NO rest. Keyboard at edge of surface forcing raised posture
- board placed in tray below top of desk
- board placed on top level of desk
- legs up
- legs down
My chair is always at its max height. My goal is for my arms to approach the keyboard on a flattish plane. Easier to float my wrists
QWERTY
While the arms/wrist are in static positions the feeling is more of a burn than pain. Applying pressure to the affected region can stimulate pain. Sometimes a gentle touch in an area can be enough that I need to wring out my hands.
My mouse stays close to the keyboard and I only use a 10 key when I really need to crunch.
Thanks for the support gents :D
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While the arms/wrist are in static positions the feeling is more of a burn than pain. Applying pressure to the affected region can stimulate pain. Sometimes a gentle touch in an area can be enough that I need to wring out my hands.
This sounds pretty bad. Definitely see a doctor. Don’t wait for it to get worse.
I DO eat lunch at my desk. Multitasking is a must. Always have a few things going on. As I hit a waiting period on the current task, normally I'll have another task ready for its next operation so I get back on that.
Also, take some bloody breaks!
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Daily driver : hhkb pro 2 type s - uniform 45g weight save variance
That one is a Topre switch keyboard right?
Are the switches plate mounted?
I have a Topre keyboard with uniform 60g switches mounted on a steel plate and omg the impact of bottoming out is really terrible. Every time you bottom out a keystroke into a freaking STEEL PLATE you are damaging the cells and nerves in your body.
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The switches are case mounted. Bottoming out the hhkb is actually quite pleasant.
I will go see a doc and see what's up. Taking breaks haha-- I do need more for sure. Hard for me to break a way from the action.
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I have not had bad enough RSI that I've had to take prescribed time off work. From my experiences, I think time off will help you heal, but if you don't make changes, your pain will come back.
Like others have said, go see a doctor. When I saw a doctor, she helped figure out what parts of my arms/hands/wrists were hurting. She prescribed going to physical therapy which helped.
It might take a lot trial and error to see what helps you. There is a lot of information out there and it can be overwhelming. At the same time if you're having pain that can affect your livelyhood it can be scary.
Here are some things that I do that have helped me:- Ice after work, do things to warm up before work, like take a warm shower or heating pads. This also includes keeping warm while at work.
- Stretching. Do more than just your hands/wrists. Stretches for your back, shoulders, and neck have an effect.
- Take regular breaks and don't work for extended periods with a break
- Switch my typing style to be more ergonomic - using shifts and other modifiers on both sides, avoid awkward hand gestures
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You should install padding to your hhkb. Someone called it the Handlebar Wrap Mod or something to that effect.
Do you hold your wrists straight when you type? It makes a big difference. Bent wrists = much more dragging of your tendons against your carpal bones as you type. The finger muscles are in your arm and drag your tendons across your bones over and over and over and over.
As for me, I hafta use loose wrist braces to constantly remind me to keep my wrists straight. And I use icepacks 24/7. And take tons of breaks. And had to make a lot of sacrifices.
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Sheesh! I did not think I was this bad off already. Of course an official medical opinion will be coming for verification.
I'm reluctant to change and having limitations of movement or restricting movement tickles my mojo wrong. Sacrifices may be sure to come and will have to in order to remedy the ailment.
Normally I try to maintain good posture but I'm human, I will eventually start to slip. I should use those cues to take a walk.
Thankfully there isn't any pain elsewhere. My shoulders, back, and upper arms are completely fine. The burn is localized to my interior wrist and back of palm which can spider out normally to the fingers and elbow occasionally.
Today I finished up work around 7 hours ago. Still wringing my hands out every once in a while. :eek: </rant>
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If you could take a picture/video of yourself typing showing your desk, keyboard, etc., that might serve as a better basis for discussions of posture or posture change.
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Can do. I'll put something up Monday morning
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you most likely have tendonitis that is in your carpel tunnel and pinching a nerve, aka carpal tunnel syndrome. it's a type of compartmental syndrome in which the tendons in your wrist are repeatedly torn by unnatural wrist movement (the golf probably started it, and not the typing; there is much more force on the wrists in a golf swing (particularly on your back hand) than there is when typing).
when it starts, as yours is just starting to become a problem, the best treatment is the same as with a any other similar soft tissue injury.
PRICE -- Protection Rest Ice Compression Elevation
1) PROTECTION AND REST: discontinue activities involving the damaged tendon(s). ie, stop playing golf. wear wrist braces when you type. STOP using the soft tissue that hurts. they're never going to heal if you keep damaging them. NOT DOING THIS CAUSES THE MAJORITY OF CHRONIC SOFT TISSUE PAIN
2) ICE: inflammation can be directly treated by short stints of cold compress, with your skin and the outermost bits of soft tissue protected by a towel. wrap a cold pack in a towel. press gently or rest on inflamed area for 20 minutes at a time. do not leave ice on a bare skin or for longer than 20 minutes. both can cause more damage and bounceback, wherein inflammation gets worse as a histamine response to the cold.
3) COMPRESSION: when not wearing wrist braces, use ace wrap to apply compression to inflamed tendons. the idea is about the same as the ice. you're battling inflammation and relieving the compression syndrome of soft tissue inflammation in a tight space. you're also squeezing blood out of that inflamed area.
4) ELEVATION: get inflamed tissue above your heart to reduce blood pressure in inflamed area. same concept as above. resting and sleeping with your wrists just hanging out, elevated in a comfortable position as high above your heart as possible will shrink that tissue so that it has room to heal.
soft tissue is soft. it's easy to damage. if you don't let it heal, it's going to stay damaged.
ironically, carpal tunnel is one of the easiest compartmental syndromes to treat because the space is so small and it immediately starts pinching the median nerve, so you can see it coming a mile away. STOP USING YOUR DAMNED WRISTS. go to the drug store right now, buy a couple ice packs, some ace wrap, a couple of different wrist braces, and some ibuprofen or aspirin (both are effective NSAIDs that are well regarded for long term treatment of tendonitis). use them all and you will never get into a situation where you need surgery to open up your carpal, or repair your median nerve, or worse, start damaging the run of nerves that pass up your arm and across your shoulders (which is the worst, most horrible type of arm-related chronic tendonitis leading to nerve damage).
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Thanks mkawa, for bringing us back to how serious this kind of thing can be. OP: listen to mkawa. (And talk to a doctor. And if something hurts, stop doing it!)
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By the sound of it, getting a few weeks off isn't going to help if you are just going to go back to the exact same environment.
You'll be surprised how much work you can get through when you take regular breaks. They don't have to be long... making drinks is good as you'll get in another break as a consequence.
Ever find yourself typing as you are thinking (it happens), and delete almost as you type? Stop it. Think first - pen and paper are really good design tools...
If you don't have one, set up a code library. Write functions in a way that you could use them again and add them to the code library when they are tested and working. Eventually, you'll be able to write most scripts by assembling items from the library and just stitch them together. You'll get more done, and type less.
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Thankfully there isn't any pain elsewhere. My shoulders, back, and upper arms are completely fine.
I used to say the same thing.
At first.
The burn is localized to my interior wrist and back of palm which can spider out normally to the fingers and elbow occasionally.
Today I finished up work around 7 hours ago. Still wringing my hands out every once in a while. :eek: </rant>
I have met a gajillion ppl who developed hand problems and none of them made a full recovery once they got symptoms as bad as yours. A few of them were able to do a certain trick and have a temporary recovery but it always comes back and gets worse.
Does the pain go up to your elbow in both arms or just your mouse arm?
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If you could take a picture/video of yourself typing showing your desk, keyboard, etc., that might serve as a better basis for discussions of posture or posture change.
+1
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you most likely have tendonitis that is in your carpel tunnel and pinching a nerve, aka carpal tunnel syndrome. it's a type of compartmental syndrome in which the tendons in your wrist are repeatedly torn by unnatural wrist movement (the golf probably started it, and not the typing; there is much more force on the wrists in a golf swing (particularly on your back hand) than there is when typing).
when it starts, as yours is just starting to become a problem, the best treatment is the same as with a any other similar soft tissue injury.
PRICE -- Protection Rest Ice Compression Elevation
1) PROTECTION AND REST: discontinue activities involving the damaged tendon(s). ie, stop playing golf. wear wrist braces when you type. STOP using the soft tissue that hurts. they're never going to heal if you keep damaging them. NOT DOING THIS CAUSES THE MAJORITY OF CHRONIC SOFT TISSUE PAIN
2) ICE: inflammation can be directly treated by short stints of cold compress, with your skin and the outermost bits of soft tissue protected by a towel. wrap a cold pack in a towel. press gently or rest on inflamed area for 20 minutes at a time. do not leave ice on a bare skin or for longer than 20 minutes. both can cause more damage and bounceback, wherein inflammation gets worse as a histamine response to the cold.
3) COMPRESSION: when not wearing wrist braces, use ace wrap to apply compression to inflamed tendons. the idea is about the same as the ice. you're battling inflammation and relieving the compression syndrome of soft tissue inflammation in a tight space. you're also squeezing blood out of that inflamed area.
4) ELEVATION: get inflamed tissue above your heart to reduce blood pressure in inflamed area. same concept as above. resting and sleeping with your wrists just hanging out, elevated in a comfortable position as high above your heart as possible will shrink that tissue so that it has room to heal.
soft tissue is soft. it's easy to damage. if you don't let it heal, it's going to stay damaged.
ironically, carpal tunnel is one of the easiest compartmental syndromes to treat because the space is so small and it immediately starts pinching the median nerve, so you can see it coming a mile away. STOP USING YOUR DAMNED WRISTS. go to the drug store right now, buy a couple ice packs, some ace wrap, a couple of different wrist braces, and some ibuprofen or aspirin (both are effective NSAIDs that are well regarded for long term treatment of tendonitis). use them all and you will never get into a situation where you need surgery to open up your carpal, or repair your median nerve, or worse, start damaging the run of nerves that pass up your arm and across your shoulders (which is the worst, most horrible type of arm-related chronic tendonitis leading to nerve damage).
+1
Thanx. I was in way to much pain to type that all out.
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Mkawa is correct. You are late but I can add a few things.
You need to stop typing. Carpal tunnel is one of the surgeries that work, if you follow directions and don't go back to work to
early.
See a Hand Surgeon for a better outcome.
Buy two wrist splints like these: http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=carpal+tunnel+wrist+splints&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=36177552280&hvpos=1t2&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9590136848096991939&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=t&ref=pd_sl_1wf66tzw2u_b (http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=carpal+tunnel+wrist+splints&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=36177552280&hvpos=1t2&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9590136848096991939&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=t&ref=pd_sl_1wf66tzw2u_b)
Wear them all the time and sleep in them.
It may sound silly but avoid salty foods. Salt contributes to retaining water and causes more edema/swelling and worsens the tingling/numbness feeling.
I'm sure your hands are worse if you drive any distance and you may wake up at night with them numb and tingling.
You are or have reached the point you may have permanent nerve damage - you need to see a hand surgeon. If the numbness/ting lunging are lasting after work, your thumb strength is decreasing, or your symptoms are starting to occur sooner with the activities that cause the symptoms you are increasing your risk of permanent injury.
This is strictly a personal opinion and does not constitute me giving you medical advice or taking responsibility for your illness.
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Dang it. You chaps are scaring me!
Looks like I'll need to get a diagnosis sooner rather than later. :/
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also what do you do at home? game on pc with kb and mouse? or game on console? or cook for leisure or drive stick shift? dominant hand which one has it worse? it all adds up
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Dang it. You chaps are scaring me!
Looks like I'll need to get a diagnosis sooner rather than later. :/
Pretty much, but things might not be as bad as all that. While you wait for your appointment, there's plenty of possible change to think about. I was in the same boat as you once, I'm not healed, but things are far better now than then.
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At home I could game 0-1 hours a night at max 2 hours. Tfc 2 ; poker 2 MX reds
I've been gaming all my life and have never been uncomfortable during those sessions or after. I'm sure this does not help to "cool down" my affected areas after a days work but gaming at home is a completely different environment.
Quite honestly, my posture is notably worse than my "at work" posture. I'm much more of slouch but I'm never in pain nor does it irritate or agitate me further. It is comfortable. Here's my setup :
- left hand in static position ; only moving to chat if necessary
- NON-wasd user. Left ring finger on comma, left middle of period
- mouse grip : pinched between thumb and pinky ; mid three are left to float
- forearms rest 3/4s on desk hanging elbows off
- left forearm atop pressed wood -- right forearm on foam mouse pad.
I've been doing that a long time never experienced discomfort in any fashion. Playing tfc is more or less mental therapy for me. It helps to wind down and dull my mind--relaxation really.
I am 28 and have driven a manual since 16.
Right handed. Both hands are affected equally with my left hand having a slight edge in agitation.
Just writing all of that down looks like an overload. Cutting gaming will help me but I to use a keyboard to work and drive myself first. The majority of my livelihood are there latter 2. :D
Ahh shucks
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Made a quick video of my working environment and my daily setup. Hopefully the angle is sufficient.
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lol, that's a pretty nice home office setup you got there! Looks like HHKB and a Noko wrist rest. After seeing how you work, now I'm wondering if that keyboard is too low for you. That keyboard tray might be too low for your wrists, maybe try to raise the keyboard up to regular desk level?
I read through the responses, and I don't think anybody addressed your main question. I think your OP was asking mainly about getting a doctor's note to get the rest you need to recover from RSI/ overuse. I'm not a Florida disability lawyer, but I can give you some general advice.
Here are your options:
1. Private Disability Insurance: check to see if you have any disability insurance through your job. Like AFLAC, or one of it's competitors. However, unless you are an executive, or are a highly paid employee, or unless you paid for it yourself, it is unlikely that you have this kind of insurance, but this is the best option. Usually it will pay up to 80% of your salary while you are out on a medical disability, and some other expenses possibly. Obviously you will need medical proof from your own doctor, and you most likely have to go to the insurance company's doctor to get evaluated as well. Don't be surprised if the insurance company doctor says you are fine to work after a few weeks off. In which case you will have to file whatever appeal paperwork with the insurance company and/or bring a lawsuit to continue receiving the insurance payments. Don't think of this a "benefits", this is what you paid for, it's not welfare.
2. Worker's Compensation: If you were hurt on the job, you can file a worker's compensation claim. This is adversarial, and you will have to go to a hearing before the worker's comp. board. But if you have medical proof, it should be okay. Your doctor may have to testify, or he might be able to submit written proof in the form of his medical records and treatment notes, along with an affidavit or sworn deposition.
3. Social Security Disability: You have to file a claim with the Social Security Administration. http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10029.pdf
You should see an attorney in Florida about this stuff to get better info.
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Your setup looks good. If I were to be super picky, I'd say the keyboard is slightly too high as you have your wrists bent upwards. You could lower your chair a bit...
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@eth0s
Private disability is definitely out of the question but damn 80% of my salary would be amazing. Although very nice - I'd be dreaming to have that happen. Fighting for worker's comp ughhhh.
It never hurts to try for things like Social Security but normally I fall into the gap of making enough money to that I'm not eligible for benefits. The middle classes struggle?? haha
Recently I placed the keyboard back in my tray - I've had it up top for a few months with no siginificant difference.
Hoggy,
I've lowered my seat slightly. I'll see how it bodes me. I need to force myself to take breaks!!
Thanks fellas
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Sorry, I meant to type_raise_ your chair...
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lol!
My chair was at max height in that vid. I'll raise it back up meow.
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Made a quick video of my working environment and my daily setup. Hopefully the angle is sufficient.
You are far more ergonomic than most people. :thumb:
You must really type a really tremendous heck of a lot or you caused your hand problems from Golf.
Problem 1. Your wrists are bent backwards. That is how people get Tendonitis and Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. If you would lower the keyboard then your wrists would be straight when you type.
It is basically ok to bend your wrist backwards when at rest. But when you type with your wrist bent backwards you drag your tendons across your carpal bones (wrist bones).
You can get a lap tablet thingy to put in your lap and put the mouse and keyboard right in your lap and have a perfect setup.
You can get an extra 100,000 miles out of your hands if you do the above. If you don't do it then you are throwing away 100,000 miles of usage.
Problem 2. You are not wearing your loose wrist braces. To remind you to keep your wrists straight.
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Made a quick video of my working environment and my daily setup. Hopefully the angle is sufficient.
You are far more ergonomic than most people. :thumb:
You must really type a really tremendous heck of a lot or you caused your hand problems from Golf.
Problem 1. Your wrists are bent backwards. That is how people get Tendonitis and Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. If you would lower the keyboard then your wrists would be straight when you type.
It is basically ok to bend your wrist backwards when at rest. But when you type with your wrist bent backwards you drag your tendons across your carpal bones (wrist bones).
You can get a lap tablet thingy to put in your lap and put the mouse and keyboard right in your lap and have a perfect setup.
You can get an extra 100,000 miles out of your hands if you do the above. If you don't do it then you are throwing away 100,000 miles of usage.
Problem 2. You are not wearing your loose wrist braces. To remind you to keep your wrists straight.
I'll purchase the braces sooner or later. I could get fancy with a Popsicle stick splint in the meantime. Gahh, I can't believe I need those things!
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It is not normal to get bilateral symptoms. You are either just really unlucky or really tremendously unlucky.
When doctors see my bilateral symptoms the experienced ones always get shocked.
Has anyone reading this thread ever developed recurring hand pain in both hands at once but then it turned out to be no big deal and it got better somehow?
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:thumb:
lol, that's a pretty nice home office setup you got there! Looks like HHKB and a Noko wrist rest. After seeing how you work, now I'm wondering if that keyboard is too low for you. That keyboard tray might be too low for your wrists, maybe try to raise the keyboard up to regular desk level?
I read through the responses, and I don't think anybody addressed your main question. I think your OP was asking mainly about getting a doctor's note to get the rest you need to recover from RSI/ overuse. I'm not a Florida disability lawyer, but I can give you some general advice.
Here are your options:
1. Private Disability Insurance: check to see if you have any disability insurance through your job. Like AFLAC, or one of it's competitors. However, unless you are an executive, or are a highly paid employee, or unless you paid for it yourself, it is unlikely that you have this kind of insurance, but this is the best option. Usually it will pay up to 80% of your salary while you are out on a medical disability, and some other expenses possibly. Obviously you will need medical proof from your own doctor, and you most likely have to go to the insurance company's doctor to get evaluated as well. Don't be surprised if the insurance company doctor says you are fine to work after a few weeks off. In which case you will have to file whatever appeal paperwork with the insurance company and/or bring a lawsuit to continue receiving the insurance payments. Don't think of this a "benefits", this is what you paid for, it's not welfare.
2. Worker's Compensation: If you were hurt on the job, you can file a worker's compensation claim. This is adversarial, and you will have to go to a hearing before the worker's comp. board. But if you have medical proof, it should be okay. Your doctor may have to testify, or he might be able to submit written proof in the form of his medical records and treatment notes, along with an affidavit or sworn deposition.
3. Social Security Disability: You have to file a claim with the Social Security Administration. http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10029.pdf
You should see an attorney in Florida about this stuff to get better info.
:thumb:
from what i've seen, companies are starting to take human factors and soft tissue RSI much more seriously now. you can cover a small amount of ergo hardware and rest-time _now_, or you can completely lose a productive employee in 6 months. it isn't just a forcing function from OSHA, but people finally crunching the numbers with data that goes back a while, and seeing that it's a much bigger win for them to pay for physio now than full disability later.
imo i think eventually it will be similar to the way OSHA requires people lifting heavy things all day or listening to loud noises all day to wear mitigating hardware. a lot of the tech companies are already starting to have human factors people on call for everyone to reconfigure their workstations and covering the costs of the hardware needed to keep people from injuring themselves. productivity > all, really.
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your writs are bent way too much, you could almost do a HADOKEN with those wrists, then that is bad.
raise your seat or lower the keyboard tray or
keyboard tray (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001E0A3XY/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B001E0A3XY&linkCode=as2&tag=420usa-20)
and yea other reviewers say it works on glass
or get this
keyboard tray (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004XJCJ12/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B004XJCJ12&linkCode=as2&tag=420usa-20)
the next best thing without getting a wall mounted keyboard tray
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Is your keyboard on some kind of little metal riser thingy? Anyway, I wonder if it would help to boost your palm rest up by 1/2" to 1". You still don’t really want to have your hands wresting on it while you type, but if it were a bit higher then it might be at a more natural height to wrest your palms on while taking a break, without having to bend your wrists way down, and it would basically force you to keep your wrists at least mostly straight, even when your palms were sitting on the palm rest.
Also, I wonder if it might help a tiny bit to add a bit of (or a bit more) negative tilt to the keyboard, so the near end is slightly higher than the far end. That along with slightly boosting your chair or lowering your keyboard might help.
I know a couple of guys who have found little sliding forearm rests helpful in taking some weight off their arms and helping them type comfortably. (I’m haven’t tried those myself enough make informed recommendations about it though.)
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the reason you're injured is because you're basically using your hands for 12 hours straight.
8 hours of work
2 hours of golf
2 hours of driving back and forth
do you use your hands once you get home?
you'll know your actual numbers more accurately of course. but does it make more sense why you're in pain? imagine you're doing bicep curls for 12 hours straight; your biceps would be beyond toast.
your wrists are nowhere near neutral in that video unless the video's angle is just funny. you're using standard no feet wrist position....which is better than feet up, but still not good enough to actually get you better
basically, imagine another flat surface above your keyboard. put your hands underneath that surface and hovering above your
keyboard. you should by typing so that the back of your hand and your wrist is CONSTANTLY in contact with that surface.
________
|_______ new piece of wood
back of your hand
your palm
keyboard
-----------------desk
derrr you don't literally need to use a piece of wood
EDIT:
i think kickboxers actually practice keeping their wrists neutral...lets see if theres a video
EDIT2:
right there. notice how the wrist and the back of the hand form a straight line? that's neutral position.
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One way to get your wrists in a neutral position would be to balance a coin on the back of the hands. Of course it would be a total pain to do so, but it should get the idea across.
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Very interesting stuff here.
The keyboard in the video is sitting atop an acrylic cover. I've actually removed that as of yesterday to try and get my wrists even. Yesterday actually wasn't too bad as far as lingering burning/pain. This could be due to the fact that I've had the weekend off and haven't used my wrists that much. This is generally the normal flow and by the end of the week I'll be ready for some more rest.
I do not hit the range everyday after work. 1 time a week is normal MAYBE 2. However I do drive back and forth to work daily with a manual trans. So if the hands/wrists can be fatigued as any other part of the body such as my biceps, is it possible to focus some strength exercises towards the wrists to help with stamina or would they hurt me more by adding additional stress to the area?
Balancing the coin on the back of my wrist doesn't sound like a horrible idea. I will give this a try if anything maybe I could train myself with this method.
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is it possible to focus some strength exercises towards the wrists to help with stamina
Absolutely do not ever do that under any set of circumstances whatsoever.
or would they hurt me more by adding additional stress to the area?
Yes!
You have already been exercising your wrists waaaaay to much.
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is it possible to focus some strength exercises towards the wrists to help with stamina
Absolutely do not ever do that under any set of circumstances whatsoever.
or would they hurt me more by adding additional stress to the area?
Yes!
You have already been exercising your wrists waaaaay to much.
Today I've made myself get up and take breaks. Massaging my inner forearms a bit.
Bottom line is a I need to get these braces ordered - (hoping for next week) - and get an appointment with an ortho sometime in the future. Will be just dealing with it until then as I have normally.
Thanks to all for the info provided :thumb:
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Having worn wrist braces for a while, it's possible to overdo it. You'll be surprised by how much strength you can lose by using those things.
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With that keyboard, I would second the suggestion of a negative angle. You can try to raise the edge closest to you, so that the keys are parallel with the floor. I would also suggest raising your chair, or lowering the keyboard so that when you have your fingers touching the keys, your wrists are neutral (as others have said), but also have your elbows bent at 90 degrees. This will help float your hands over the keys while typing. Typing with the keyboard on your lap might also help with this.
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^
personally, my best body posture and hand form is when i have it on my lap.
I think this is one of those things that depend on the person's exact proportions though.
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I'm going to fashion some cardboard to create a negative angle. Propping it up on my palm wrest works but is not stable enough for me.
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This is not long enough. Keyboard teeters - but it works. Making a new one here shortly
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
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Revision 1 underneath the first attempt. The second revision is just a piece of cardboard. The first was 2 pieces of cardboard taped together.
[attachimg=1]
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Made a quick video of my working environment and my daily setup. Hopefully the angle is sufficient.
1. While your arms are level, your keyboard is much too high on that acrylic cover, causing you to bend your wrists upwards.
2. You're not even using your wrist rest while typing, causing your arms and wrists to bear more pressure from being elevated and not in a comfortable resting position.
3. Lowering your keyboard to desk height, and lowering your chair so your arms are level would be a good start.
As I finish typing this, I see you've removed it and have tried a negative angle; that should also be a good start for now.
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Made a quick video of my working environment and my daily setup. Hopefully the angle is sufficient.
1. While your arms are level, your keyboard is much too high on that acrylic cover, causing you to bend your wrists upwards.
2. You're not even using your wrist rest while typing, causing your arms and wrists to bear more pressure from being elevated and not in a comfortable resting position.
3. Lowering your keyboard to desk height, and lowering your chair so your arms are level would be a good start.
As I finish typing this, I see you've removed it and have tried a negative angle; that should also be a good start for now.
Indeed. I'm rocking the negative angle on my board now while using the palm wrest. Just put that into place today so I'll see how this setup treats me. :D :D
Normally I did not use my palm wrest because unfortunately at the time, simply touching the wrest with the fatty part of my palm was causing me pain.
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Wrist rest should not be used while actually typing. It is only supposed to be a place to rest your hands while not actively typing. While actively typing your hands should be floating above.
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Wrist rest should not be used while actually typing. It is only supposed to be a place to rest your hands while not actively typing. While actively typing your hands should be floating above.
Yes yes - I "pop" my wrists up from the wrest when I'm ready to type
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Wrist rest should not be used while actually typing. It is only supposed to be a place to rest your hands while not actively typing. While actively typing your hands should be floating above.
Why put strain on your muscles by elevating them? You're activating tendons and muscles in this position which is unnecessary and alleviated by wrist rests.
This is at least how my kinesiologist friend teaches people working through their rehab. As long as you have level arms (generally supported by chair arms), having your hands in a comfortable position and at rest, ensures you're not utilizing those tendons and muscles reduces the risk of RSI and other issues.
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I always ditch the arm supports from my computer chair. Arms rests just invite me to have a lazy posture. :d
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Wrist rest should not be used while actually typing. It is only supposed to be a place to rest your hands while not actively typing. While actively typing your hands should be floating above.
Why put strain on your muscles by elevating them? You're activating tendons and muscles in this position which is unnecessary and alleviated by wrist rests.
This is at least how my kinesiologist friend teaches people working through their rehab. As long as you have level arms (generally supported by chair arms), having your hands in a comfortable position and at rest, ensures you're not utilizing those tendons and muscles reduces the risk of RSI and other issues.
…and increases the risk of vi Esc key syndrome.
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…and increases the risk of vi Esc key syndrome.
Only if they do not swap Esc with CapsLock.
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…and increases the risk of vi Esc key syndrome.
Only if they do not swap Esc with CapsLock.
…and -, =, \, `, [, ], Backspace, Fx, Enter and generally any key that requires reaching. Control in the corner isn't great either.
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Ooops, then you need Kinesis Advantage with Chris' firmware, or ergodox (while not using all keys) or Oobly's keyboard with some palm support. Select whether you prefer layering heavily or reaching keys which are more far away.
Whoever is afraid of RSI/Carpal and uses an old fashioned row staggered keyboard (*) is not informed or in conflict with himself/herself.
(*) This includes row staggered 60% keyboards like e.g. Poker etc.
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Ooblys keyboard is a beaut. That would be next reach if I go ergo.
Other options are just too dang bulky
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I had a Kinesis Advantage. It was actually worse, when it came to modifiers and pressing shortcuts in general. That's why I sold mine. The other issue was fixed angle and the palm rests. OTOH 80key ErgoDox is pretty close to my perfect keyboard.
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OTOH 80key ErgoDox is pretty close to my perfect keyboard.
For me too. The only think I miss a nearer thumb cluster and a bit of curving. So I'm trying to add it:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61323.0
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Just over a week of use under the new setup and so far it was a great improvement.
The frequency of "wringing out" my hands is far reduced--from a few times an hour to a few times every 4 hours. No burning!!!!!
May upgrade the the cardboard later if the setup still tickles my fancy.
Great info in this thread. The responses were indeed very much appreciated
Thank you geekhack--I think you saved may hands!!! <3
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That is good to hear, but remember to take breaks. Even short 5-10 min breaks would help.
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I had a Kinesis Advantage. It was actually worse, when it came to modifiers and pressing shortcuts in general. That's why I sold mine. The other issue was fixed angle and the palm rests. OTOH 80key ErgoDox is pretty close to my perfect keyboard.
That is one of the things I am not liking about mine. I love typing on it, but it can get really awkward when going for combinations.
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Osi, my suggestion would be to let things settle for a while, say a few weeks, but then introduce a few changes here and there.
Pics are a great way to keep our interest up, we haven't finished yet!
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Osi, my suggestion would be to let things settle for a while, say a few weeks, but then introduce a few changes here and there.
Pics are a great way to keep our interest up, we haven't finished yet!
Good deal! The wrists are definitely not 100%. I'm not sure if I can get back there but I will try!
At least the pain has transformed to at least discomfort for me. I only really noticed it this week when I the wrists and hands were in static positions.
I'll keep this thread updated as we go. Thanks again for the support!
P.s. -- no wrist braces acquired yet ; don't hate me :x
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The way I see it, the situation you are in...it's like an algebraic formula. Swap long term problems for multiple short term problems,that sort of thing... Wrist braces swap a long term problem for another medium/long term problem, don't self medicate with those. I know others here have differing opinions.
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It's been a while--so a quick update. I've not seen a Doc yet, have not used wrist braces, nor has my setup changed since last posting. Still have my slab of cardboard under the HHKB and the location/position has not changed either.
What has helped me the most in combating discomfort is simply distancing myself away from work AND gaming. Stopped putting in overtime hours (unpaid overtime) and also stopped taking work home. Also I've stopped my daily gaming sessions and cut them back to at most 3 or 4 times a week. As of now my arms, wrists, fingers, and hands are much improved from when I first made this post. I still make conscience efforts to "monitor myself" and if I exceed a certain time limit sitting and working, I'll make myself get up and take AT LEAST a 15 minute break.
Earlier this year, I believe I crossed the threshold of no return with the carpal issues--they seem to be here to stay. By no means am I pain/discomfort free but the symptoms are far easier to manage than previously. Now I just cope and deal with discomfort when it arises as I know what to expect now. Hitting a fat golf shot will light my wrists up occasionally, but that happens to all golfers carpal or not. It has also been a good while since my wrists had that "sustained burn" from the inside thank goodness.
<3
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The way I see it, the situation you are in...it's like an algebraic formula. Swap long term problems for multiple short term problems,that sort of thing... Wrist braces swap a long term problem for another medium/long term problem, don't self medicate with those. I know others here have differing opinions.
I am not a fan of braces either. My wife uses them but only when sleeping to prevent laying on them in very odd and horrible positions. Unless prescribed from a physician for short term use for a specific reason.
It's been a while--so a quick update. I've not seen a Doc yet, have not used wrist braces, nor has my setup changed since last posting. Still have my slab of cardboard under the HHKB and the location/position has not changed either.
What has helped me the most in combating discomfort is simply distancing myself away from work AND gaming. Stopped putting in overtime hours (unpaid overtime) and also stopped taking work home. Also I've stopped my daily gaming sessions and cut them back to at most 3 or 4 times a week. As of now my arms, wrists, fingers, and hands are much improved from when I first made this post. I still make conscience efforts to "monitor myself" and if I exceed a certain time limit sitting and working, I'll make myself get up and take AT LEAST a 15 minute break.
Earlier this year, I believe I crossed the threshold of no return with the carpal issues--they seem to be here to stay. By no means am I pain/discomfort free but the symptoms are far easier to manage than previously. Now I just cope and deal with discomfort when it arises as I know what to expect now. Hitting a fat golf shot will light my wrists up occasionally, but that happens to all golfers carpal or not. It has also been a good while since my wrists had that "sustained burn" from the inside thank goodness.
<3
Good to hear that you are making improvement. Please keep us update with other developments as the arise.
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Sounds like great news to me!