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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: jeffrey on Mon, 08 June 2009, 13:33:04

Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: jeffrey on Mon, 08 June 2009, 13:33:04: Does anyone know about this kind of keyboard? They call is 'Chiclet Style Keyboard': http://www.netbookchoice.com/2009/04/19/so-what-is-a-%E2%80%98chiclet%E2%80%99-keyboard-anyway/

I-ROCKS announced the new KR-6401 full size wired chiclet keyboard (membrane) in 2009 Computex Show. Has anyone used this kind of keyboard before?
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: huha on Mon, 08 June 2009, 13:53:00: Oh, the article is just painfully wrong. Chiclet keyboards were all the rage in the 80s, when cheap keyboards were needed for cheap computers. That's where the term seems to originate from, as well as the conotations when calling something a chiclet keyboard--it's just absolutely horrible.

Apart from that, there are two advantages of "modern" chiclet keyboards over traditional scissor-switch keyboards (the older ones were really crappy, so let's not talk about them).
Advantage 1: They look quite nice.
Advantage 2: More usable key surface due to lower space between keys required.

But there are disadvantages:
Disadvantage 1: It's utter crap.
Disadvantage 2: Keys aren't sculpted, so your fingers won't find the center to hit them. Keys are sculpted for a reason, mainly to guide the finger. If you remove the sculpting, the finger isn't guided any more, which is quite bad.
I don't think the looks are worth this, as typing comfort is much worse than on keyboards with sculpted keycaps. You'll hit the keys at all kinds of weird angles and spots, and they're generally just a pain to use.

-huha
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: Mikecase00 on Mon, 08 June 2009, 14:36:14: I have a new Sony Vaio lappy with a chicklet keyboard. My feels can be summed up in two words... IT SUCKS!

It's especially disconcerting for touch typing, as I found last night typing in low-light. They key action isn't bad, but the key shape, devoid of any contours, makes it disconcerting.
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: ricercar on Mon, 08 June 2009, 14:36:18: I'm a recovering Macaholic. I had a MacBook with those keys. I sold it. 'nuff said.
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Mon, 08 June 2009, 14:38:30: Yes I've used those before but only on the macs though. I've never tried any other one.
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: bopdiddy on Mon, 08 June 2009, 14:58:39: I'm old. So old. The first chiclet keyboard I ever tried was on a Tandy CoCo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRS-80_Color_Computer

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/TRS-80_Color_Computer_1.jpg/320px-TRS-80_Color_Computer_1.jpg)

Sucked doesn't even begin to describe it. I had a TRS-80 Model III myself. Its keyboard was definitely not clicky, but was certainly better than that CoCo monstrosity.
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 08 June 2009, 15:14:53: Chiclet keyboards are conductive rubber on pcb. Says wikipedia.
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: IBI on Mon, 08 June 2009, 16:41:40: Quote from: lowpoly;94777
Chiclet keyboards are conductive rubber on pcb. Says wikipedia.

As far as I understand it the real chiclet keyboards have no real travel at all, they're membrane keyboards with just a solid block of rubber stuck on top of the membranes to make the keys protrude and maybe give a little feedback with the natural squishiness of the rubber.

I've not heard it used for the modern laptop keyboards of a similar appearance to some chiclet keyboards, the sites I read mostly use the much more sensible name of isolated keys or isolation-style keyboard.

@huha: I'm not sure less space is required or there's anything to stop them being curved - the only difference between traditional style scissor switch keys and isolated scissor switch keys is that the isolated ones have vertical sides with metal or plastic in between the keys instead of sloping sides that meet.

I don't think there's anything stopping curved keys being made, in fact I think the only difference is one of appearance - none of the normal functionality or options should be affected with traditional vs. isolated scissor switch keys.
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: jeffrey on Mon, 08 June 2009, 18:06:18: this is what they released in Computex 2009. http://www.i-rocks.com/Product_detail.aspx?CLASS_ID=1018&PRODUCT_ID=1206

the space between keys are kinda 'huge'....
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: ricercar on Mon, 08 June 2009, 18:12:40: The MacBook keys are not proper chicklets then. MacBook keys have a plastic scissors action to hold the key cap over a rubber plunger.
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Mon, 08 June 2009, 18:24:06: Why not deal with mechanical switches with the clickiness and tactile feel? This is what we want right?
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: jeffrey on Mon, 08 June 2009, 18:44:20: Quote from: ripster;94838
Only way to know is to measure them. (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=92935&postcount=124) I betcha it's an optical illusion - imagine your keytops squished down to the base.

Hey Jeffrey - your post count hit 10. Now I don't have to be TOO polite.

5"x16.5"x0.6"; the distance between each key is 0.1".
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: IBI on Mon, 08 June 2009, 20:27:23: Quote from: webwit;94842
Here's some guy giving a presentation about that keyboard

I wonder how many people recognise him?
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Tue, 09 June 2009, 11:11:19: I think I would like this KR-6401 if the space between each key was smaller. The mac ones I tried felt uncomfortable and made many errors.
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Tue, 09 June 2009, 11:41:50: Quote from: ripster;94926

BTW - I think the conclusion is the Chiclets aren't gonna get a lot of love around Geekhack.

Cherries FTW!
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 09 June 2009, 12:01:22: Quote from: ripster;94938
They have those, the KR-6230, but it's $100 at Mwave (http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch_v3.asp?scriteria=BA31651).

It's going to have to be good to compete against Filco ($115) or Das ($129 and free shipping, better distribution).

We'll soon see.

I would buy one if it weren't for the forward-slash key and the right shift key swapped around. If the layout were a little closer to the Macally MK-96, it would be better. I don't even mind the L-shaped enter key.
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Tue, 09 June 2009, 12:05:38: Quote from: itlnstln;94941
I would buy one if it weren't for the forward-slash key and the right shift key swapped around. If the layout were a little closer to the Macally MK-96, it would be better. I don't even mind the L-shaped enter key.

I just don't think this layout is going to work. The forward-slash is in a horrible place. But if we do anything to it, it will ruin the positioning of the up arrow.

The layout of this board would be perfect if it was the same layout as the RF-6520 except with the normal layout of the numpad. I don't see why they saved 1 key-width of space on the numpad to make this board more compact. Over engineering is bad. Don't do it... imo =P
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 09 June 2009, 12:08:24: Quote from: watduzhkstand4;94942
I just don't think this layout is going to work. The forward-slash is in a horrible place. But if we do anything to it, it will ruin the positioning of the up arrow.

I would rather put the up arrow in the space of the forward-slash (like the MK-96), move the right shift over, and put the forward-slash back in its proper place.
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: jeffrey on Tue, 09 June 2009, 12:44:27: Quote from: ripster;94926
Hey Jeffrey, before you post an iRocks product again you should mention you are the US distributor. Just put it with your avatar or sig.

BTW - I think the conclusion is the Chiclets aren't gonna get a lot of love around Geekhack.

You are right; tks

check this out; I just got this sample today. so tiny.

218(L) X 103(W) X 15(H)mm

(http://www.i-rocksusa.com/lg_image/KR-6600-BK-2.jpg)
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: IBI on Tue, 09 June 2009, 14:07:29: Quote from: jeffrey;94971
check this out; I just got this sample today. so tiny.

218(L) X 103(W) X 15(H)mm

Show Image
(http://www.i-rocksusa.com/lg_image/KR-6600-BK-2.jpg)

That's a bit of a train crash layout, the FN key shouldn't be in a more prominent place than control as it's used less (I use it less anyway) and why on earth are comma and full stop smaller than the letters? They're used far more than z, q and x. I don't see any \ ¦ key either, even in the fn layer.

Keysonic does sell those keyboards over here and they are very tiny so you're not going to be flying over it anyway but if I was ever to get one I think I'd prefer it if it only the most important keys were left and the rest moved to the AltGr/FN layer - it would look much nicer and less cluttered and may be a bit more usable.
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 09 June 2009, 14:20:36: Quote from: IBI;95003
That's a bit of a train crash layout, the FN key shouldn't be in a more prominent place than control as it's used less (I use it less anyway) and why on earth are comma and full stop smaller than the letters? They're used far more than z, q and x. I don't see any \ ¦ key either, even in the fn layer.

Keysonic does sell those keyboards over here and they are very tiny so you're not going to be flying over it anyway but if I was ever to get one I think I'd prefer it if it only the most important keys were left and the rest moved to the AltGr/FN layer - it would look much nicer and less cluttered and may be a bit more usable.

It doesn't look much different than the Cherry ML-4100 layout. It is a little bit of a mess in the lower right, but so is the Cherry. When trying to make a keyboard that small, I don't think there's a way to make a perfectly "smart" layout. The only thing, though, is that I am not sure why I, personally, would be attracted to this 'board. I like my Cherry, because it has ML switches which, IMO, feel better than scissors. That, and my laptop already has scissor switches and a better layout, so it doesn't really offer anything to me there, either. I can possibly see this being used in a commercial environment by service techs that need something portable to repair kiosks, etc. with, but I can't see where it would fit into my personal use.
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: huha on Tue, 09 June 2009, 15:25:50: Quote from: jeffrey;94971
You are right; tks

check this out; I just got this sample today. so tiny.

218(L) X 103(W) X 15(H)mm

Show Image
(http://www.i-rocksusa.com/lg_image/KR-6600-BK-2.jpg)

Ah, you missed an opportunity there. I know you're concentrating on the US market at the moment, but if you were to cram another key between ";" and Return, this would be the small keyboard for Germany. Tiny keyboards are a big compromise anyway, so moving less-used characters away is the only thing you can do. But removing the " ' " key and putting it in a strange location will totally ruin the typing experience for anyone not using the US layout. There are a few ultra-small keyboards like that here, but they're just not usable for pretty much anything.
I don't know how involved you are with R&D, but close to no one has yet succeeded in designing a usable ISO-layout tiny keyboard. The only halfway decent ones I know are used in the Eee PC; the layout is still pretty bad, but at least it doesn't put the most-often used keys in strange locations.

-huha
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: jeffrey on Wed, 10 June 2009, 13:44:42: I found this new use of KR-6600....

http://www.tool-box.info/blog/archives/672-Optimus-mini-three-+-iRocks-KR-6600.html

(http://www.tool-box.info/blog/uploads/SANY3357.jpg)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_k93u9U3mzNs/Rb4RwanTOLI/AAAAAAAAAQc/8cEpPJhLrqM/s1600/SNC10469.JPG)

(http://attach1.mobile01.com/attach/200712/mobile01-db26a382c9de126070d03e34c9025428.jpg)
Title: chiclet style keyboard
Post by: jeffrey on Wed, 10 June 2009, 18:37:14: Quote from: ripster;95234
Too bad he didn't like it. Did the key registration problems ever get fixed?

will check with Korea branch and Taiwan office tonight.

by the way, check the picture I took; comparison of KR-6600 and Jornada728 keypad. Personally I like '? /" key next or close to the right shift key; but one think i like Jornada728 keys is they are very easy to press and responsive...compared to KR-6600.:decision: