geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Red October on Tue, 16 June 2009, 03:50:50
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So I'm sure we've all seen the very old style keys as on the DEC VT-100 and the like, smooth and rounded. Was there every a PC-compatible keyboard made with such keys? I've got a big bag of VT-100 keys here and could in theory make something up (I've got a dead M that could donate parts) but it would be a quite the undertaking, so I'm wondering if there is a turnkey solution. I really just want it for the novely value as I'm quite happy typing on an M, but if it exists I still want in.
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Maybe find a new keyboard with a compatible stalk type (if my C.Itoh CIT-101 is an example, it seemed like you might be able to wedge the keycaps onto Cherry-style cross-shaped stems.
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Oh man where Oh where did you find those keys? I've been looking for some even if I have to buy the keyboard to get them. I love the shape and feel of those old style keys. If you decide you can't use them please let me know I would love to have them.
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Old style keycaps like these (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5418) are still available from Cherry.
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On the Japanese switch identification page that everyone always posts here, those are said to be alps right? But some people identify them as old cherry? One way or another it doesn't look like it'd be too hard to cram them into a newer alps board....
Even if the solder points don't fit you could probably solder wire to each point and mount the switch directly on the board with epoxy putty or glue or something.
I actually tried this method with converting a compact btc keyboard, like the siig minitouch plus, and it was working before I ran out of time to work on it. It's still on the backburner of my mods if I ever need another compact mechanical.
http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hisao/image/paso700.htm
To me it looks like that'd fit in a modern alps board....
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Speaking of dec keyboards, anyone know what kind of key switch this uses?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-of-2-VINTAGE-LK501-AA-Refurb-DEC-Digital-Keyboards_W0QQitemZ220371471518QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item334f29cc9e&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116
It's a lk501-aa. I read a post saying that the lk201 was horrible, but the seller seems to indicate these feel really good..so I'm thinking it must be mechanical?
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I found the keys in a lucky eBay auction. The seller didn't know what they were, just a bag of old keyboard keys. I immediately recognized them as VT-100 keys (thank the gods my dad worked in a DEC shop wherein I had my first encounters with computers). The LK-201 is indeed rubbish to type on, no fun at all. The VT-100 is quite another story, but it uses a kind of keyswitch that is not used at all anymore; there are two copper "jaws" that are brought together by the keystem as it travels down. The response is quite different but certainly pleasant enough. The pack of keys I got is in fact a new replacement set from DEC. They are similar to model M keys but not compatible, the stem is too fat to fit in the hole on an M. I'm not sure at this point how to adapt them, to be honest. My next line of thinking would be the keyboard from a Displaywriter. I've got a few old H/P computers (85 and 86b) with the type of keys in question, but I'd be loathe to tear one of those apart.
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I found the keys in a lucky eBay auction. The seller didn't know what they were, just a bag of old keyboard keys. I immediately recognized them as VT-100 keys (thank the gods my dad worked in a DEC shop wherein I had my first encounters with computers). The LK-201 is indeed rubbish to type on, no fun at all. The VT-100 is quite another story, but it uses a kind of keyswitch that is not used at all anymore; there are two copper "jaws" that are brought together by the keystem as it travels down. The response is quite different but certainly pleasant enough. The pack of keys I got is in fact a new replacement set from DEC. They are similar to model M keys but not compatible, the stem is too fat to fit in the hole on an M. I'm not sure at this point how to adapt them, to be honest. My next line of thinking would be the keyboard from a Displaywriter. I've got a few old H/P computers (85 and 86b) with the type of keys in question, but I'd be loathe to tear one of those apart.
That might be NMB switches. Sandy's site has pictures of them.
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Old style keycaps like these (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5418) are still available from Cherry.
Mhmm. How easy is it to get them from Cherry? Would they have some sort of minimum order or what?
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Mhmm. How easy is it to get them from Cherry? Would they have some sort of minimum order or what?
If anyone finds out, count me in. I requested a catalog from them last night :)
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I read a post saying that the lk201 was horrible, but the seller seems to indicate these feel really good..so I'm thinking it must be mechanical?
I got mine today.
It is a membrane board but uses small metal springs instead of rubber domes. Similar to Cherry MY/FTSC. It feels linear, no mushy ending.
The Cherry MY usually gets bashed here but I think the key feel is smiliar to linear MX. I'd expect the drawback is rather that the point of actuation is not as precise as with the MX as it depends on spring force building up on the membrane.
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OK chaps, here's the rub. Got the catalog from Cherry. It has no detail of keycaps. I suppose I could telephone them, but I was wondering, since all Cherry keycaps seem to be compatible, does anyone know of another old-style board that uses Cherrys that will be easier to find than the weird one linked to in this thread, or of another board that uses keys compatible with something that can be coerced into interfacing with a PC?
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I suppose I could telephone them, but I was wondering, since all Cherry keycaps seem to be compatible, ...
This isn't quite true. MX key caps should be compatable with any MX series key switches, but wouldn't work with ML series switches. While ML caps won't work with MX style key switches.
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Cherry's is different:
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5315/switchandlevelfs9.png)
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My Cherry is not like that. It's the same idea, but the assembly is a little different
the white pieces that mount to the keycap are part of the mounting base altogether.
edit: I was just about to say "lowpoly has a lot more insight on this" but it looks like he sniped in a comment already lol
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they're held in place by the stabilizing bar - but the second that bar is moved, they come out through the bottom (you have to pull the mounting off the pcb to get it out...or yank really hard and risk breaking some plastic tabs)
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For the sake of completeness, it be mentioned that Cherry G81s are different again. Here the ends of the metal stabilizer (which is clicked in on top of the membrane) go into these white pieces which are part of the keycap - at least for the space bar. The other larger keys have the stabilizer clicked in and dangling below them (seemingly without much greasing on more recent samples). Best reassembled with the top case off, so you can check for proper operation.
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Shortly after the IBM PC came out, makers of other brands of computers, and even typewriter makers, started copying its style of key, where fingers are guided by a cylindrical surface instead of a spherical one. The usefulness of a reducible surface, to which key overlays could be attached, was obvious, and it was considered to look more "modern" as well. Some point-of-sale keyboards use keys with flat keytops instead, but the old-style key seems to be completely gone these days as far as current manufacture is concerned.
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Some point-of-sale keyboards use keys with flat keytops instead, but the old-style key seems to be completely gone these days as far as current manufacture is concerned.
(http://picnica.ciao.com/de/167147950.jpg)
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For the record: These FSC keycaps feel astonishingly well.
-huha
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The LK-201 is indeed rubbish to type on, no fun at all.
I haven't used an LK-201, but I did recently obtain an LK-401 to use in an attempt (which was successful) to resuscitate a 25-ish year old DEC Rainbow 100 computer. This is a dual-brained system with 4MHz Z80 for CP/M-80/86, a 4.? MHz 8088 for MS-DOS 2.1, and a 10MB hard drive. I can verify that the LK-401 is also rubbish to type on. Very stiff, but looks to be a rubber dome board.
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At least it's not one of those awful Chiclet keyboards which feel like the buttons on a microwave.
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I'd assume the LK-401 uses the same keyswitches as the LK-201 - linear membrane switches. Possibly the worst thing I've ever typed on, even moreso than those roll up keyboards.
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I'd assume the LK-401 uses the same keyswitches as the LK-201 - linear membrane switches. Possibly the worst thing I've ever typed on, even moreso than those roll up keyboards.
Really? I would think linear-membrane switches would at least center over the membrane contact...
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Actually, it's been a while since I tried a rollup keyboard, but the DEC has a really short travel and no tactility. So it's almost impossible to know whether you have actually pressed the key or not just by feel.
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Yes, the key travel is less than usual. And definitely very non-tactile. Like rubber dome boards, you're effectively forced to bottom out the keys since it's the only way to be certain that the keypress will register. And that's made harder by the stiffness and high force that is required. I'd place this board in a tie for "worst ever" with the old BTC capacitive board that I once owned.